Official 2012-2013 New York Knicks Thread

[SMC]

Great points, Jason. I think Tyson was primarily resoonsible for all the layups in the game. He finally got angry and went hard after Stevenson, but he was in position to block a lot of those drives and didnt.

Also, I cant understand how the Knicks teach the box out. Tyson tried to block out Hibbert and all he ended up doing is allowing another Pacer to rebound the ball. The box out is for you to keep the opponent away and for you to get the rebound, but Tyson constantly had his back to the basket or in others pushing guys in the back.

[dbatesman]

It wasn't an attack on Melo, per se. Just that he's Dominique Wilkins and, like Wilkins, his fans will always be wondering why his teammates are never good enough.

 

[gangreenman]

You're probably correct.  The thing that killed me though was that even though Chandler clearly wasn't right, I still think the idea of doubling Hibbert every time he was on the block was one of Woodson's biggest faults.  Yes, Chandler's on-ball defense isn't great, but the Pacers were too well-coached and absolutely torched us every time they kicked it out. 

 

Smith was terrible, I've never seen someone shoot so badly for 8 straight games, expect maybe for his performance last year in the playoffs. I'm not sure what they do with him as it's hard to give up the 6th man of the year for nothing, but he had some absolutely back-breaking mental errors.  

 

As for Copeland, he's definitely a stretch 4 who brings more to the game than Novak in just about every category, it'd be nice to keep him around, however even though he's from jersey, he clearly wants to get paid after paying his dues in europe for half a decade.  Any ideas what they can offer him besides the initial qualifying offer and the extra 200k for some reason I forget?

As good of a job as he's done since he took over for D'Antoni (and he's been great)...Woodson was badly out coached this series.  To put Martin and Chandler in the game at the same time for extended periods of time the first four games of this series in an attempt to matchup with Hibbert and West is a matchup Hibbert and West still win at least 8 times out of ten. And then we get zero offense from either.  Needed to see more Copeland earlier on and probably could have given more time to Prigioni or Kidd to keep JR's self destruction tour from absolutely killing the Knicks pretty much every time he touched the ball

[T0mShane]

WEPPINZZZZZZ

[Bugg]

As good of a job as he's done since he took over for D'Antoni (and he's been great)...Woodson was badly out coached this series.  To put Martin and Chandler in the game at the same time for extended periods of time the first four games of this series in an attempt to matchup with Hibbert and West is a matchup Hibbert and West still win at least 8 times out of ten. And then we get zero offense from either.  Needed to see more Copeland earlier on and probably could have given more time to Prigioni or Kidd to keep JR's self destruction tour from absolutely killing the Knicks pretty much every time he touched the ball

About Copeland; there's reasons he's a rookie at 29. Extrapolating an 82-game successful season after a few good quarters woould be exactly projecting long term success based on a small sample.

[JohnnyHector]

  Any ideas what they can offer him besides the initial qualifying offer and the extra 200k for some reason I forget?

 

They have to give him the qualifying offer, which is the $788k minimum plus the $200k non-Bird exception, which makes him an RFA.  However, the Knicks will only have the taxpayers exemption available, which is roughly $3m, so that's all they could match.

[JohnnyHector]

Great points, Jason. I think Tyson was primarily resoonsible for all the layups in the game. He finally got angry and went hard after Stevenson, but he was in position to block a lot of those drives and didnt.

Also, I cant understand how the Knicks teach the box out. Tyson tried to block out Hibbert and all he ended up doing is allowing another Pacer to rebound the ball. The box out is for you to keep the opponent away and for you to get the rebound, but Tyson constantly had his back to the basket or in others pushing guys in the back.

 

Maybe he shouldn't have skipped college.

[SMC]

LOL, Jet fans wish Sanchez was as good as Melo. Where would they be with a starting QB who is an 8 time probowler, top 3 in MVP voting and led the NFL in TD passes.

[gangreenman]

I disagree with that. The Spurs post Robinson didnt have that. The Pistons never one. The Celtics werent  HOFers iin their primes. The Kobe Lakers only had 1 HOFer. The Mavs definitely didnt have anything resembling a 2nd HOFer. Maybe you need that 2nd guy if you go up against LeBron and Wade or Durant and Westbrook but you dont need that to beat the Pacers or, in most cases to advance to the Finals.

 

You can have a star and a competent 2nd/3rd player and win. The issue is your secondary and tertiary players cant just disappear the way Felton, Smith, and/or Chandler did. There really is no reason the Knicks should not have advanced to the Eastern Finals. The Heat are pretty unique but if the Knicks got good efforts out of those 3 players they could beat the Heat every now and then just like the Spurs used to do to LA at times by being a more fundamentally solid team even though they couldnt match option 2 vs Kobe. 

You're wrong on almost all counts.  Celtics had Garnett and Pierce when they won.  2 HOFers that were capable of playing 30-40 mins a game.   Not to mention Ray Allen. And Rondo might be one too before its all said and done if he keeps it up.   Kobe lakers only won when they had Shaq (close to his prime) or a mixture of Pau in his prime (definite possibility of HOF), Bynum in his prime (Was the best big man in the league at the time and an All-Star - even if not a HOFer) and Ron Artest in the latter stages of his career. 

Spurs the last time they won had Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli all in their primes... 

 

I agree with what you are saying about this particular series though. We did not need a 2nd HOFer to beat the Pacers.  If Smith or Felton shot half as well this series as they did the entire regular season Knicks would probably be looking ahead to Miami.  

[jason423]

Great points, Jason. I think Tyson was primarily resoonsible for all the layups in the game. He finally got angry and went hard after Stevenson, but he was in position to block a lot of those drives and didnt.

Also, I cant understand how the Knicks teach the box out. Tyson tried to block out Hibbert and all he ended up doing is allowing another Pacer to rebound the ball. The box out is for you to keep the opponent away and for you to get the rebound, but Tyson constantly had his back to the basket or in others pushing guys in the back.

 

I dont think coaches in basketball mean much except in the playoffs I mean there are rare exceptions like out in Chicago, but for the most part coaches stand out in the playoffs. I dont think Woodson did well and I think he was exposed pretty badly. The Knicks got flustered by a tougher team and lost composure and didnt communicate on the floor. One pass Ill give Chandler in that regard is that you have decisions to make. If he leaves his guy to help it might lead to a pass and dunk. When your defense is that bad up top its a difficult spot for a defender. Hes expecting someone else to be there and nobody is there. In many ways that was went on in the Bulls dunkfest against the Nets in Game 7. Lopez is more of a shot blocker than handler (not a better defender but a more aggressive blocker) and when he went for a block guys just dished off or cleaned up the boards because his guards were so out of position.

 

Chandler plays more of the blockout role where he expects to clean up if the ball comes to his side but to defer to someone else if the ball heads the other way. You expect a guard to be on the behind of George Hill or whomever if he comes from  the top. I mean thats basketball 101. You get beat you better get your teeth on his backside. And if you get picked off there should be a body to step in ahead of your center and alter a shot. If the center comes out you should be in a spot to get in the lanes and pick a pass. The Knicks got zero from up top. They got beat and stood and watched. Its a no win spot for the center. Im not saying Chandler innocent and Ive always been on the hes overrated for the salary bandwagon, but the guys that need to be chewed out play up top. 

[SMC]

JR was realy a detriment whenever he was on the floor and it was he who was beaten alot.

[gangreenman]

About Copeland; there's reasons he's a rookie at 29. Extrapolating an 82-game successful season after a few good quarters woould be exactly projecting long term success based on a small sample.

Not sure what you mean by this.  Copeland was one of the only players on the Knicks this series other than Melo capable of making a 3 and spreading the defense. 

[SMC]

I think the Copeland point is that his importance came about because he filled a role, just like Sean Williams did a couple years ago rather than it being him as a player. Copeland is older than Melo and JR. Hes only worth the qualifying. Knicks shouldnt pay more than that.

Lets hope Tyson is hurt because if not the Knicks are in trouble.

[gangreenman]

I think the Copeland point is that his importance came about because he filled a role, just like Sean Williams did a couple years ago rather than it being him as a player. Copeland is older than Melo and JR. Hes only worth the qualifying. Knicks shouldnt pay more than that.

Lets hope Tyson is hurt because if not the Knicks are in trouble.

And I wasn't talking about who to resign. I was talking about the way the series was coached. 

[jason423]

You're wrong on almost all counts.  Celtics had Garnett and Pierce when they won.  2 HOFers that were capable of playing 30-40 mins a game.   Not to mention Ray Allen. And Rondo might be one too before its all said and done if he keeps it up.   Kobe lakers only won when they had Shaq (close to his prime) or a mixture of Pau in his prime (definite possibility of HOF), Bynum in his prime (Was the best big man in the league at the time and an All-Star - even if not a HOFer) and Ron Artest in the latter stages of his career. 

Spurs the last time they won had Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli all in their primes... 

 

I agree with what you are saying about this particular series though. We did not need a 2nd HOFer to beat the Pacers.  If Smith or Felton shot half as well this series as they did the entire regular season Knicks would probably be looking ahead to Miami.  

 

Garnett and Pierce werent in their primes. Garnett was probably 3 years removed. He was a dominant player from 2002-2004. By 2007 he was good but if his whole career was 2007 good he wasnt going to the HOF. Im not a big Pierce fan. Maybe that was his most efficient year because of the pieces around him, but in general it was team of good parts. None of the guys could hold a candle at that stage of their careers to Kobe or Melo. It was a slightly better version of the Pistons. Im not sure Id consider Gasol a HOFer. Good player that played better in the playoffs. For the most part I think all those teams were good teams with solid players that complemented each other well. Other than the Celtics nobody at the time was talking about the HOF potential of those other players. It was always about Duncan and "a supporting cast" or Kobe and "a supporting cast". Some of those guys raised it in the playoffs (Parker beat up Kidd in th efinals the one year) but if those individual seasons were their norms I wouldnt consider them for HOF. 

[SMC]

And I wasn't talking about who to resign. I was talking about the way the series was coached. 

Yeah, I agree with you. Going big game 4 was stupid for the reasons stated. Copeland had to see the court early in the series.

[T0mShane]

Worse week: Mike Woodson or Mike Goodson?

[gangreenman]

Garnett and Pierce werent in their primes. Garnett was probably 3 years removed. He was a dominant player from 2002-2004. By 2007 he was good but if his whole career was 2007 good he wasnt going to the HOF. Im not a big Pierce fan. Maybe that was his most efficient year because of the pieces around him, but in general it was team of good parts. None of the guys could hold a candle at that stage of their careers to Kobe or Melo. It was a slightly better version of the Pistons. Im not sure Id consider Gasol a HOFer. Good player that played better in the playoffs. For the most part I think all those teams were good teams with solid players that complemented each other well. Other than the Celtics nobody at the time was talking about the HOF potential of those other players. It was always about Duncan and "a supporting cast" or Kobe and "a supporting cast". Some of those guys raised it in the playoffs (Parker beat up Kidd in th efinals the one year) but if those individual seasons were their norms I wouldnt consider them for HOF. 

FIrst off I disagree.  Garnett was incredible that year.  Handled Lebron defensively and helped carry that team.   He was not at his best, but was more than capable of producing at a high level for 30+ mins per game.   Pierce is a surefire HOFer. As is Ray Allen. Rondo has a shot still.   

 

Just because players compliment each other well - doesn't mean they don't deserve to be HOFers.   Pippen was on Jordan's "supporting cast" and was still a clear HOFer.  

I would still trade Felton and JR for Parker and Ginobli - even at this point in their careers - all day, every day, and twice on Saturdays.   And neither are anywhere close to the level they were playing at back in 07 either.   Same can be said for my feelings about Tyson Chandler vs. either Gasol or Bynum - Please please please!!

[Matt39]

Stevenson harnesses his blackness better than JR. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

Stevenson harnesses his blackness better than JR. 

 

The kid really matured and regardless of whether it was on his own or because of his teammates and coach, he's come a full 180 from last playoffs against Miami and giving the "choking" sign to Lebron.  He's still a straight up thug, but the kid balled out and played his role perfectly. Best game of his career in the biggest game of his career.  Pretty impressive.

[jason423]

FIrst off I disagree.  Garnett was incredible that year.  Handled Lebron defensively and helped carry that team.   He was not at his best, but was more than capable of producing at a high level for 30+ mins per game.   Pierce is a surefire HOFer. As is Ray Allen. Rondo has a shot still.   

 

Just because players compliment each other well - doesn't mean they don't deserve to be HOFers.   Pippen was on Jordan's "supporting cast" and was still a clear HOFer.  

I would still trade Felton and JR for Parker and Ginobli - even at this point in their careers - all day, every day, and twice on Saturdays.   And neither are anywhere close to the level they were playing at back in 07 either.   Same can be said for my feelings about Tyson Chandler vs. either Gasol or Bynum - Please please please!!

 

Id take Gasol over Chandler because he brings more variety to the table. Not Bynum. Bynum is more talented than both but hes always hurt. I cant invest that kind of money in a guy always hurt even knowing the talent he is. As for the others Id say Pierce is going to the HOF and Ray Allen probably is. I dont think Allen deserves it and that coming from a Big East guy but I think hell make it. Pierce I think is alot like Vince Carter except he accepted a role that Vince never did. Parker will probably get in but its for more the later years not the early title runs. Id be surprised if Manu makes it. 

[Matt39]

The kid really matured and regardless of whether it was on his own or because of his teammates and coach, he's come a full 180 from last playoffs against Miami and giving the "choking" sign to Lebron.  He's still a straight up thug, but the kid balled out and played his role perfectly. Best game of his career in the biggest game of his career.  Pretty impressive.

 

Strong finisher. Great bball Iq. Stevenson can pass...always has had that ability. When he's not throwing girls down stairs he can play.

 

Jr is just dumb, Dribble, dribble, dribble, off balanced hero shot.

 

Knicks took Rautins and Fields over Lance too. Ugh

[jason423]

Worse week: Mike Woodson or Mike Goodson?

 

Goodson. Both could get fired but one gets paid whereas the other may have to pay money back and end up in jail unless he can prove that he was hunting deer in the middle of route 80 at 3 in the morning. Woodson can just point to the fact that Melo never wins

[gangreenman]

Id take Gasol over Chandler because he brings more variety to the table. Not Bynum. Bynum is more talented than both but hes always hurt. I cant invest that kind of money in a guy always hurt even knowing the talent he is. As for the others Id say Pierce is going to the HOF and Ray Allen probably is. I dont think Allen deserves it and that coming from a Big East guy but I think hell make it. Pierce I think is alot like Vince Carter except he accepted a role that Vince never did. Parker will probably get in but its for more the later years not the early title runs. Id be surprised if Manu makes it. 

Garnett Allen Pierce and Parker will all be HOFers.  Maybe Gasol too.  And Artest probably has an outside shot (but I doubt it) - same can be said for Manu.  Comparing Gasol to Chandler is a crime against Gasol.  He is better at just about every aspect of the game.  Thats not a knock on Chandler - I love his toughness and his tenacity - he's just not close to that level.   Bynum was healthy for the most part during their championship runs - and he was dominant.   Not going to be a HOF guy unless he really stays healthy and gets back to playing at that level..But if he were to maintain the level he played at during those runs for a few years - it wouldn't even be a question.

[gangreenman]

Goodson. Both could get fired but one gets paid whereas the other may have to pay money back and end up in jail unless he can prove that he was hunting deer in the middle of route 80 at 3 in the morning. Woodson can just point to the fact that Melo never wins

The only reason Woodson has any shot at being fired is because Dolan is an incompetent sh*tbag.  He is a great coach for the Knicks - even if he got out coached this series. 

[T0mShane]

Goodson. Both could get fired but one gets paid whereas the other may have to pay money back and end up in jail unless he can prove that he was hunting deer in the middle of route 80 at 3 in the morning. Woodson can just point to the fact that Melo never wins

lol excellent breakdown.

[T0mShane]

I think the great lesson to take from the playoffs for both the Knicks and the Nets is that if you're going to go anywhere in the playoffs, you have to find tough frontcourt players to do it with, even if it means sacrificing some scoring off the wings. The Pacers, Memphis, and Bulls were all allowed to beat the crap out of people in the paint without penalty. If you can't compete physically there, you're going home in early May every year.

[gangreenman]

I think the great lesson to take from the playoffs for both the Knicks and the Nets is that if you're going to go anywhere in the playoffs, you have to find tough frontcourt players to do it with, even if it means sacrificing some scoring off the wings. The Pacers, Memphis, and Bulls were all allowed to beat the crap out of people in the paint without penalty. If you can't compete physically there, you're going home in early May every year.

Not necessarily.  But you do need role players and supporting cast to be able to hit shots and contribute.  Cant rely solely on a superstar to do all the scoring. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

I think the great lesson to take from the playoffs for both the Knicks and the Nets is that if you're going to go anywhere in the playoffs, you have to find tough frontcourt players to do it with, even if it means sacrificing some scoring off the wings. The Pacers, Memphis, and Bulls were all allowed to beat the crap out of people in the paint without penalty. If you can't compete physically there, you're going home in early May every year.

 

Not to sound like a bitter fan as it's happened to every team, but the disparity in how they call the same play on different ends of the court can be pretty laughable at times.  I have no problem with letting them play, but you've gotta call it both ways; you'd see Hibbert bodying up Melo the entire series and then Martin and Chandler get called on the opposite end for the same thing (not using it as an excuse as this isn't the reason the Knicks lost, it's more just a post on how inconsistent the reffing can be). Now against the heat, the same way Hibbert was playing against the Knicks, will probably get him three fouls in the first quarter against Bron and Wade.  The refs having that much say in the game is one of the things that makes the NBA so damned frustrating sometimes.  It's just so odd that the refs have the power to actually take a player out of the game.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Strong finisher. Great bball Iq. Stevenson can pass...always has had that ability. When he's not throwing girls down stairs he can play.

 

Jr is just dumb, Dribble, dribble, dribble, off balanced hero shot.

 

Knicks took Rautins and Fields over Lance too. Ugh

 

In retrospect it sucks, but there's no way he would have matured living in NYC, minutes away from all the hoodrats he grew up with and playing under D'Antoni.  Playing under D'An with absolutely no structure or discipline, kid would have been in the doghouse before the season started and either in jail or eating vaseline on youtube while playing ball over in China.  He and the Knicks would have been eaten alive by the media; Indiana was a good landing spot for him.

[SayNoToDMC]

We ****ed. Only piece we can really change is Woodson with his painted on Mr. Potato head goatee and we still ****ed. See you assholes in another 10 years

[SayNoToDMC]

Not to sound like a bitter fan as it's happened to every team, but the disparity in how they call the same play on different ends of the court can be pretty laughable at times.  I have no problem with letting them play, but you've gotta call it both ways; you'd see Hibbert bodying up Melo the entire series and then Martin and Chandler get called on the opposite end for the same thing (not using it as an excuse as this isn't the reason the Knicks lost, it's more just a post on how inconsistent the reffing can be). Now against the heat, the same way Hibbert was playing against the Knicks, will probably get him three fouls in the first quarter against Bron and Wade.  The refs having that much say in the game is one of the things that makes the NBA so damned frustrating sometimes.  It's just so odd that the refs have the power to actually take a player out of the game.

 

 

Calls where ****ed but lets not pretend we didn't deserve to lose this series. They are a well rounded, well coached team and we're the Knicks. The calls seemed off but they drove the paint and rebounded, we have a bunch of children who chuck sh*t up from the outside. They played their game all series and we can't or won't adjust.

 

[Larz]

so I take the family to the local church carnival saturday night, figuring I'll be home for the 2nd half.  turn out all the kids friends are there, they have a great time, and I totally forget about the game.  get home after 10:00

 

remember the game.

 

begin to frantically search for the channel they are on

 

tune in just in time to see hibbert reject melo at the rim with the score tied 92-92.  literally just as melo spins baseline I tune in

 

yay

 

anyone still think hibbert is a jag ?

 

didn't think so

 

my expectations for this season were to make the playoffs and not get swept.  

 

the knicks are still better than denver and the nyets

 

so have fun cockroaches

[JohnnyHector]

Stevenson harnesses his blackness better than JR. 

 

 

The kid really matured and regardless of whether it was on his own or because of his teammates and coach, he's come a full 180 from last playoffs against Miami and giving the "choking" sign to Lebron.  He's still a straight up thug, but the kid balled out and played his role perfectly. Best game of his career in the biggest game of his career.  Pretty impressive.

 

 

Strong finisher. Great bball Iq. Stevenson can pass...always has had that ability. When he's not throwing girls down stairs he can play.

 

Jr is just dumb, Dribble, dribble, dribble, off balanced hero shot.

 

Knicks took Rautins and Fields over Lance too. Ugh

 

Lance Stephenson != DeShawn Stevenson

 

The former is the NY State HS all-time leading scorer who was drafted in 2010 out of Cinci and got to the rim at will against the Knicks last night.  The latter is the choke-signing, custom t-shirt wearing, thug with a record that won a title with the Mavs, is currently on the Hawks, and has been in the league since 2000.

[SMC]

I agree about Stevenson with the Knicks.  Under D'Antoni he wouldve been a disaster because of the lack of structure here at the time and the proximity to everything bad in his life.  In Indiana he had a better chance to mature.

 

If Tyson and JR play decent--not even well--just decent, the Knicks win this series.  Both were consistently awful.  The Knicks 3 most important players are Melo, Tyson, and JR.  You can't win a series against a good team when 2 of your top 3 are awful.

 

LeBron is the gold standard, but we've seen even with him what happens when key players play like utter sh*t around him.

 

People mention LeBron's 40pt game down 2-1 to the Pacers last year. It's forgetten that Wade had 30 that game as well (13/23 from the field).  Conversely, in LeBron's last game with the Cavs, Mo Williams scored 22 on 8/18 shooting and only one other player was in double figures.