Classic TV vs Reality TV mafia - basic game

[JiF]

You explanations are somewhat rational.

However, I'm not lying... and that is where you lose me.

I've counted one lie so far. You said you didn't follow me, and the proof IN THREAD shows that you did.

I've nailed you for "get behind the Ape" when you are scum in the past. Others who have witnessed it will have to vet that claim, because you saying it's a lie is about as reliable as me saying it isn't. You are basically saying I'm lying to the noobs, which is a lie in and of itself. You are just creating a scenario where they have to make an uninformed choice between which of us they think is lying about things from past games.

What I find telling about your play is that you are trying to convince people I am lying... but you aren't trying to convince people I'm scum. It's like you are keeping a caveat in your OMGUS attack on me, to ensure you can talk your way out of being wrong later. The old blame me for playing badly and getting myself lynched routine.

I was not pinging you at all before I noticed you drafting off my casing and voted you. Then you immediately abandoned all suspicion of others and voted me, and began the OMGUS. Not sure what conclusion you'd expect me to reach as a result.

You're lying about how I typically play D1 and you're lying about me getting behind the ape. I didnt get behind the ape. Yes, I agreed with you about a post but I didnt for a second get behind the ape and try to help sell your agenda. Thats what I consider, getting behind the ape.

You're pinging me for how this all went down. Ran up SMC, tying player to him, claimed you knew it all along when he revealed, reversed focus, derailed the train on a simple roleless claim, did it on some bull sh*t, on a player who's notoriously easy to lynch on D1. You could have chosen JF80 and I'd have the same reaction.

[JiF]

The bolded is exactly the point I was trying to make. You're allowing yourself an out JiF, regardless of how either of them would have flipped, you could convince the rest of us that "whoops, but that's how they always play," knowing we wouldn't know any better.

And the piggybacking was blatant, don't need to know anyone's meta to see that, you telegraphed it.

I feel like you're talking about different things but I didnt leave myself an out on anything. Its called not being 100% convinced of anything on D1.

And Ape is the one casing on meta, not me.

[Ishy]

You could have chosen JF80 and I'd have the same reaction.

Somehow I doubt it.

[JiF]

Somehow I doubt it.

Right, because what I'm saying isnt enough reason to vote some unless they we voting me. lol

[JiF]

*someone unless they were voting me

[Integrity28]

You're lying about how I typically play D1 and you're lying about me getting behind the ape. I didnt get behind the ape. Yes, I agreed with you about a post but I didnt for a second get behind the ape and try to help sell your agenda. Thats what I consider, getting behind the ape.

You're pinging me for how this all went down. Ran up SMC, tying player to him, claimed you knew it all along when he revealed, reversed focus, derailed the train on a simple roleless claim, did it on some bull sh*t, on a player who's notoriously easy to lynch on D1. You could have chosen JF80 and I'd have the same reaction.

What I consider getting behind the Ape, and what you've done in the past is you vote, agree with exactly what I just stated as a case, and then basically keep your mouth shut while I run up a townie and you laugh your ass off in the QT.

Got nothing to do with selling agendas. I said SMC is over-selling, and you posted complete agreement and voted SMC. Blatant.

I also never said I "knew it all along" about SMC. I still don't know, all I said was I considered he might be town fabricating a case vs. me to see what it shakes out. I ALWAYS consider and talk out what I think the possible town or scum motivators could be when I see people make curious plays.

As for your "easy to lynch" whining, we have a game with a bunch of noobs in it. Not the typical group. So none of the usual scenarios are true, including you being "easy to lynch". That is the first hole in your defense and case that I'm scum.

The second is that you are always the last person I want dead when I'm scum and you are town. I've literally seen 2 of my scum mates die by D2 (CTM and Nolder) and then told AVM to go silent and rode your ass to end game for the scum win by letting you run up one townie after another... why oh why would I ever want you dead on D1 if I was scum and you town? That is the second and biggest hole in your defense and case that I"m scum.

Keep running your sh*t mouth though bitch... I'm happy to keep slapping you around.

[Integrity28]

I feel like you're talking about different things but I didnt leave myself an out on anything. Its called not being 100% convinced of anything on D1.

And Ape is the one casing on meta, not me.

My case is based on votes and statements you made in this game, dopey.

[Integrity28]

Somehow I doubt it.

If I chose 80, JIF would probably be voting 80. LOL

[Ishy]

If I chose 80, JIF would probably be voting 80. LOL

Or AVM or Pac or Crush or Hess or (insert JN player name here).

[MadHatter]

Lol at this point, either JiF or Ape is maf. Now I know people are going to call me out for "linking" but if you look at play, this doesnt seem like distancing of any sort. Also, it seems that one of them has more information than the other with their cases, can't tell who though.

unvote vote JiF since I would want to lose Ape less due to him bein better at scum hunting when town, but I'm down with either. FoS on Crusher now.

[cindy]

I didnt latch on to sh*t. lol. The post struck me before I even read your "case". Jeezus.

I'm taking his word for it, for now, thats how I role on D1. Not the bull sh*t you're making up.

this was in response to how did you know he ran up a townie...

"I'm taking his word for it" .... is hard to buy.

You quoted and agreed with me. What is in the thread says different than what you are saying now...

yes... you did. I won't get into exchanging liar liars with you... tbh, that bit, the bombast and bickering, seems more like pressuring than making a case... but this.... happened the way he says it did. not a lot of room for interpretation.

.....

I've counted one lie so far. You said you didn't follow me, and the proof IN THREAD shows that you did.

I've nailed you for "get behind the Ape" when you are scum in the past. Others who have witnessed it will have to vet that claim, because you saying it's a lie is about as reliable as me saying it isn't. You are basically saying I'm lying to the noobs, which is a lie in and of itself. You are just creating a scenario where they have to make an uninformed choice between which of us they think is lying about things from past games.

What I find telling about your play is that you are trying to convince people I am lying... but you aren't trying to convince people I'm scum. It's like you are keeping a caveat in your OMGUS attack on me, to ensure you can talk your way out of being wrong later. The old blame me for playing badly and getting myself lynched routine.

I was not pinging you at all before I noticed you drafting off my casing and voted you. Then you immediately abandoned all suspicion of others and voted me, and began the OMGUS. Not sure what conclusion you'd expect me to reach as a result.

this remains unanswered. the first italicized part.

and the second part... you really aren't making any case against him except... he's lying about you.

the part about creating a scenario where noobs have to make an uninformed choice... you're both doing that pretty much but ... we're going to have to make a choice and this early on... it's going to be largely uninformed.

so small things, like one lie... objective things I can see... matter more than all the name calling.

The bolded is exactly the point I was trying to make. You're allowing yourself an out JiF, regardless of how either of them would have flipped, you could convince the rest of us that "whoops, but that's how they always play," knowing we wouldn't know any better.

And the piggybacking was blatant, don't need to know anyone's meta to see that, you telegraphed it.

it was.

I'm not sure how significant it is... I wasn't sure before seeing how many words you threw at it... but... you think it was damning enough to react more strongly here than you've reacted to anything so far. so... taking your own word for it that it's worth your vehemence to deny.

Somehow I doubt it.

it seems kind of unlikely.

as much as it pains me to agree with hatter... though... I don't understand exactly what he's getting at... except chasing another squirrel - 'at this point one or the other is Maf,' we really don't know... and 'it seems one has more info than the other with their cases, can't tell who tho..'. I don't get at all... the only vote change of the game not linked to ape, unless I missed something?

but that says more about hatter than about jif or ape, and it doesn't change the rest of it.

so...

vote jif

Edited November 26, 2012 by cindy

[JiF]

Lol at this point, either JiF or Ape is maf. Now I know people are going to call me out for "linking" but if you look at play, this doesnt seem like distancing of any sort. Also, it seems that one of them has more information than the other with their cases, can't tell who though.

unvote vote JiF since I would want to lose Ape less due to him bein better at scum hunting when town, but I'm down with either. FoS on Crusher now.

lol

[JiF]

this was in response to how did you know he ran up a townie...

"I'm taking his word for it" .... is hard to buy.

yes... you did. I won't get into exchanging liar liars with you... tbh, that bit, the bombast and bickering, seems more like pressuring than making a case... but this.... happened the way he says it did. not a lot of room for interpretation.

this remains unanswered. the first italicized part.

and the second part... you really aren't making any case against him except... he's lying about you.

the part about creating a scenario where noobs have to make an uninformed choice... you're both doing that pretty much but ... we're going to have to make a choice and this early on... it's going to be largely uninformed.

so small things, like one lie... objective things I can see... matter more than all the name calling.

it was.

I'm not sure how significant it is... I wasn't sure before seeing how many words you threw at it... but... you think it was damning enough to react more strongly here than you've reacted to anything so far. so... taking your own word for it that it's worth your vehemence to deny.

it seems kind of unlikely.

as much as it pains me to agree with hatter... though... I don't understand exactly what he's getting at... except chasing another squirrel - 'at this point one or the other is Maf,' we really don't know... and 'it seems one has more info than the other with their cases, can't tell who tho..'. I don't get at all... the only vote change of the game not linked to ape, unless I missed something?

but that says more about hatter than about jif or ape, and it doesn't change the rest of it.

so...

vote jif

Haha - just wait till Crusher or SMC or JF80 or someone who knows how I play arrives to sort this out. The Ape is completely and utterly full of sh*t and leading the charge on another townie based on false meta, nothing else. There is absolutely zero game play of mine that is damning or different than anyone else in the game besides SMC and Ape.

[Integrity28]

Lol at this point, either JiF or Ape is maf. Now I know people are going to call me out for "linking" but if you look at play, this doesnt seem like distancing of any sort. Also, it seems that one of them has more information than the other with their cases, can't tell who though.

unvote vote JiF since I would want to lose Ape less due to him bein better at scum hunting when town, but I'm down with either. FoS on Crusher now.

Gross.

This post rounds out the top 3 scummiest posts of D1. Completely disingenuous, and the flattery is pandering to a vocal leader.

You are either bussing JIF, or JIF is in fact town and you are just bandwagon voting. Blech!

Edited November 26, 2012 by Integrity28

[Integrity28]

Given the sh*t defense, JIF probably is town like I thought he might be earlier. Interesting to see Madhatter pile on behind another one of my cases... and doing so with the obligatory disingenuous rhetoric I expect from scum when they are trying to fluff up an opportunistic bandwagon vote.

Unvote

Vote MadHatter

[cindy]

.. the only vote change of the game not linked to ape, unless I missed something?

this should read

theres only one vote change in the game not linked to ape

sorry. not all brain cells online.

[The Crusher]

this was in response to how did you know he ran up a townie...

"I'm taking his word for it" .... is hard to buy.

yes... you did. I won't get into exchanging liar liars with you... tbh, that bit, the bombast and bickering, seems more like pressuring than making a case... but this.... happened the way he says it did. not a lot of room for interpretation.

this remains unanswered. the first italicized part.

and the second part... you really aren't making any case against him except... he's lying about you.

the part about creating a scenario where noobs have to make an uninformed choice... you're both doing that pretty much but ... we're going to have to make a choice and this early on... it's going to be largely uninformed.

so small things, like one lie... objective things I can see... matter more than all the name calling.

it was.

I'm not sure how significant it is... I wasn't sure before seeing how many words you threw at it... but... you think it was damning enough to react more strongly here than you've reacted to anything so far. so... taking your own word for it that it's worth your vehemence to deny.

it seems kind of unlikely.

as much as it pains me to agree with hatter... though... I don't understand exactly what he's getting at... except chasing another squirrel - 'at this point one or the other is Maf,' we really don't know... and 'it seems one has more info than the other with their cases, can't tell who tho..'. I don't get at all... the only vote change of the game not linked to ape, unless I missed something?

but that says more about hatter than about jif or ape, and it doesn't change the rest of it.

so...

vote jif

100% disagree that one or the other (Ape/Jif) HAVE to be mafia. Town on Town violence is a hallmark of JN mafia. The rest of what you say is pretty good. Minus the vote on JiF.

Not saying they are NOT mafia just saying the fact they are punching each other in the face is not damning for either player. I know both of them well and this is what they do regardless of alignment.

For now Im gonna get behind the ape. Is the Crusher scum? No. LOL

Hatter seems to be playing follow the leader. I have to take a look when I got more time. Bringing a laptop home when I leave the office at 2 so I can go get specifics later.

For now..

unvote

vote Hatter

[cindy]

100% disagree that one or the other (Ape/Jif) HAVE to be mafia. Town on Town violence is a hallmark of JN mafia. The rest of what you say is pretty good. Minus the vote on JiF.

Not saying they are NOT mafia just saying the fact they are punching each other in the face is not damning for either player. I know both of them well and this is what they do regardless of alignment.

For now Im gonna get behind the ape. Is the Crusher scum? No. LOL

Hatter seems to be playing follow the leader. I have to take a look when I got more time. Bringing a laptop home when I leave the office at 2 so I can go get specifics later.

For now..

unvote

vote Hatter

fo the record, i was also disagreeing with hatter that one or the other had to be mafia. reread?

lot of words, I know, but it was very early.

I'm watching smarter people think for now.

carry on.

Edited November 26, 2012 by cindy

[Integrity28]

100% disagree that one or the other (Ape/Jif) HAVE to be mafia. Town on Town violence is a hallmark of JN mafia. The rest of what you say is pretty good. Minus the vote on JiF.

fo the record, i was also disagreeing with hatter that one or the other had to be mafia. reread?

It was Hatter that said one of either JIF or Ape had to be scum. Not Cindy. Just for the sake of clarification.

Statements like that REEK of scum being greedy, and I've caught D1 scum (I think it was Nolder) making a statement exactly like this.

They see 2 townies butting heads, pile their vote on the one with the most votes and say "one of them is definitely scum" which means as soon as Player A is lynched, the next day is set up for a lynch of Player B.

I've been pressing things hoping to wring out scum. Here's the output:

- SMC I'm willing to let ride, I do think it's possible he went all-in because he thought I was breadcrumbing Doc. Either way, we can let it ride with him.

- JIF does love to "get behind the Ape" as scum. However, I'm on the fence about him at the moment. His defense and logic is very easily refuted, but that doesn't make him scum. It makes him bad at getting his point across without seeming divisive. As I've said many a time, townies usually look the scummiest, because they don't have all the info and are therefore incapable of knowing how to play safe, like scum can and does.

- AVM was definitely posturing like scum directing traffic away from SMC. Saying he could follow me and vote SMC, but then spending all his time trying to counter-case me represents a huge contradiction between his statements and his actions.

- Madhatter is riding my vocal leadership, attaching himself to everything I post/case, which makes me accountable for his actions in a way. More than that he is trying to setup up the next day's lynch - which is a HUGE universal scum tell.

- Verbal flat out lied about my meta and then disappeared completely when called on it. It's like he popped in to discredit my casing when I was going at SMC, and then disappeared when I moved my vote and attention elsewhere.

I've got some other observations I'm going to sit on. These are the 5 I'm most suspicious of in no particular order.

I think my vote is where it belongs. Universal scum tells trump all the meta bickering we've seen so far. I've never played with Hatter before, but I know that tell. I'm content with my D1 at this point. Now we need death, so that we can give some context to all of the scum hunting we've seen.

[Integrity28]

tl;dr

[SMC]

tl;dr

+1

FWIW, a player has to a complete idiot to breadcrumb being the doc. You're many things, Ape, but complete idiot is not one of them.

[Verbal]

It was Hatter that said one of either JIF or Ape had to be scum. Not Cindy. Just for the sake of clarification.

Statements like that REEK of scum being greedy, and I've caught D1 scum (I think it was Nolder) making a statement exactly like this.

They see 2 townies butting heads, pile their vote on the one with the most votes and say "one of them is definitely scum" which means as soon as Player A is lynched, the next day is set up for a lynch of Player B.

I've been pressing things hoping to wring out scum. Here's the output:

- SMC I'm willing to let ride, I do think it's possible he went all-in because he thought I was breadcrumbing Doc. Either way, we can let it ride with him.

- JIF does love to "get behind the Ape" as scum. However, I'm on the fence about him at the moment. His defense and logic is very easily refuted, but that doesn't make him scum. It makes him bad at getting his point across without seeming divisive. As I've said many a time, townies usually look the scummiest, because they don't have all the info and are therefore incapable of knowing how to play safe, like scum can and does.

- AVM was definitely posturing like scum directing traffic away from SMC. Saying he could follow me and vote SMC, but then spending all his time trying to counter-case me represents a huge contradiction between his statements and his actions.

- Madhatter is riding my vocal leadership, attaching himself to everything I post/case, which makes me accountable for his actions in a way. More than that he is trying to setup up the next day's lynch - which is a HUGE universal scum tell.

- Verbal flat out lied about my meta and then disappeared completely when called on it. It's like he popped in to discredit my casing when I was going at SMC, and then disappeared when I moved my vote and attention elsewhere.

I've got some other observations I'm going to sit on. These are the 5 I'm most suspicious of in no particular order.

I think my vote is where it belongs. Universal scum tells trump all the meta bickering we've seen so far. I've never played with Hatter before, but I know that tell. I'm content with my D1 at this point. Now we need death, so that we can give some context to all of the scum hunting we've seen.

I did not lie - you're wrong. I said you use meta in your cases - sh*t, I don't even remember the wording I used anymore. My statement is true - you ALWAYS say "well I did this in xx game and caught yy that way", or "last time he was town and I was scum he did zz and he isn't this time". You embed that into your cases all the time. Fact. Stop trying to paint me as lying - I'm not.

[Verbal]

Also, I was away Wed afternoon until now - caught up. Can we get a vote count?

As for my thoughts, I do think that Hatter's post was bad. I've seen him make those types of posts before on DM, so I'm hesitant to pile onto that train. I'd like to see the vote count and where we stand overall.

[Integrity28]

+1

FWIW, a player has to a complete idiot to breadcrumb being the doc. You're many things, Ape, but complete idiot is not one of them.

Scum breadcrumbs being the Doc. Obviously it's not what I was doing, it was just one more in a long history of bad jokes I've made here on JN.

[SMC]

I did not lie - you're wrong. I said you use meta in your cases - sh*t, I don't even remember the wording I used anymore. My statement is true - you ALWAYS say "well I did this in xx game and caught yy that way", or "last time he was town and I was scum he did zz and he isn't this time". You embed that into your cases all the time. Fact. Stop trying to paint me as lying - I'm not.

Verbal is a dastardly person, but I believe he's accurate about this. Ape does use meta in his cases. They're not purely in game based analyses. There's comparison or reference to things outside the specific game in question. Now, we can quibble on whether that is in fact "meta" but if the definition is anything outside the game, then it is certainly meta.

[SMC]

Scum breadcrumbs being the Doc. Obviously it's not what I was doing, it was just one more in a long history of bad jokes I've made here on JN.

This statement doesn't help you, though, because if you are scum breadcrumbing the doc, then you can't use that as a basis to say I was scum because I went "all-in" based on your scum tactic.

In other words, that's like saying player A is scummy for voting player B because player B was acting scummy.

Yes, a bit of a paradox.

[Integrity28]

I did not lie - you're wrong. I said you use meta in your cases - sh*t, I don't even remember the wording I used anymore. My statement is true - you ALWAYS say "well I did this in xx game and caught yy that way", or "last time he was town and I was scum he did zz and he isn't this time". You embed that into your cases all the time. Fact. Stop trying to paint me as lying - I'm not.

This is the exchange, including your "chime in":

I'm working on the theory that SMC is scum, and observing the reactions to my case on him so that I gain better context of the whole game. Everything I'm saying about you possibly being scum is related to this game's events and your comments in this game. You are the one invoking that I can't read you anymore, pointing to past games. I only brought up past games to illustrate that D1 scum lynches are possible.

You are waffling.

I disagree. I feel like other players don't really do anything to "allow" you to drown yourself out - you do that by leaning too strongly on meta. It is useful for a baseline, but I think you put too much stock into it.

When I drown myself out, it is not because I'm leaning on meta. That's a horsesh*t accusation. I drown myself out by arguing the same point over and over as if nobody read it the first 68 times, and when I've got scum in my sights they egg me on by playing obtuse and make me re-explain or re-frame my case repeatedly, until it turns into a sh*t show.

Don't like this post from you at all.

Listen everyone uses meta. I'm accusing you of saying that is how I drown myself out, you know damn well that meta isn't what drowns me out... it is when I start arguing over the fringe comments non-essential to my case (which is usually the scum tactic to render me irrelevant, and I KNOW SMC has successfully escaped my cases in the past by doing just this) and repeating my case over-and-over.

Meta has nothing to do with why I drown myself out. I let myself be sucked into distracting debates that undermine my cases, hell Verbal has told me exactly this in the past.

So yeah, I'm calling him a liar for what he said above.

[Integrity28]

Verbal is a dastardly person, but I believe he's accurate about this. Ape does use meta in his cases. They're not purely in game based analyses. There's comparison or reference to things outside the specific game in question. Now, we can quibble on whether that is in fact "meta" but if the definition is anything outside the game, then it is certainly meta.

You know first hand how to get me to drown myself out when I've got you in my sights and you are scum.

Me blabbering myself into being ignored has NOTHING to do with meta, and everything to do with volume, redundancy and arguing the non-essential facts. You have been masterful at sucking me into that sh*t in the past, and it's saved your butt a couple times.

Verbal knows this, and his statement that relying on meta = drowns self out, just isn't true. It's like he was making an agenda-driven post to support not listening to my case because there was some meta to it.

[Integrity28]

Either way, it's not an indictment. I just thinks he's full of sh*t about what he said... and he very well could have posted that so I'd argue about that with him, instead of focusing on my case at the time.

Which proves my point.

[The Crusher]

I'm going to buy SMC's claim for now, moving onto my next suspect Crusher. Seems like he is just trying to get someone lynched yet not get his hands dirty and play both sides. Can't post too much right now though, but vote Crusher.

I put SMC at L2 and forced his claim. Bought his claim for now and unvoted. See ya later.

This caught me as odd. He says Im trying to get a lynch without getting my hands dirty but I put SMC at L2 and forced a reveal. Seems like my hands got a little dirty.

[The Crusher]

this to everyone.

Lets assume SMC is town. You could definitely be mafia who tried to finish his lynch, then saw him claim, and then unvoted to be safe. You're not going anywhere.

Another odd post. We could all be scum and did this. Or we could be town and bought his reveal. He seems to be trying to hard. Maybe he's new. Maybe Im sensitive.

[Integrity28]

Another odd post. We could all be scum and did this. Or we could be town and bought his reveal. He seems to be trying to hard. Maybe he's new. Maybe Im sensitive.

You are sensitive. Doesn't make you wrong.

His posts like this all fall into the realm of nudging with faulty premise/logic. His only independent action, beyond following my cases, seems to have been coming after you.

Possible motive for that may be JIF is a teammate of his, and sharing with Hatter that you read him best.

[The Crusher]

You are sensitive. Doesn't make you wrong.

His posts like this all fall into the realm of nudging with faulty premise/logic. His only independent action, beyond following my cases, seems to have been coming after you.

Possible motive for that may be JIF is a teammate of his, and sharing with Hatter that you read him best.

He has stuck with the three he named in his list as scum.

[Jetsfan80]

Given the sh*t defense, JIF probably is town like I thought he might be earlier.

This doesn't make sense to me. Please explain.

[Jetsfan80]

Ape, give me a good reason to move my vote off of you. I was down for your lynch until I realized the game becomes boring when you're not around, especially with all these new people not playing.