JustInFudge Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I actually think Wilkerson is better against the run, but otherwise the Ellis comparisons are dead-on in that the old "sacks come in bunches" cliche rings true for both of them. Somebody (can't remember who) made the astute point that, like Ellis, Wilkerson would probably be a star if he'd played 20 years ago. I still think he can improve against the pass, but he does seem destined for a career in which he makes like eight of those PFF Pro Bowl teams but only two actual Pro Bowls. I'm not sure he'll ever rush the passer like Ellis. He's really not that type of player. He's a wreak havoc type player who because of his motor is going to find himself in position to make plays. Whether that's in the passing game or the run game will be more predicated on the style of game they are in than anything. He's not a, pin your ears back type player. He's a, get in there and blow sh*t up type player. Which is awesome when you have a 2nd level who can take advantage of that. Coples too. He blows some plays up, has quite a few TFL's or just stuffs. I've watched both of them stand 2 OLmen up at the same time just waiting for someone to come in and make a play. Unfortunately, if its not Landry or someone from the secondary, it usually doesnt matter because our LB'ers at that slow. I think both players are providing what they were drafted for...though I thought we'd see a little more pass rush out of Coples. So far, they look like very similar players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I actually think Wilkerson is better against the run, but otherwise the Ellis comparisons are dead-on in that the old "sacks come in bunches" cliche rings true for both of them. Somebody (can't remember who) made the astute point that, like Ellis, Wilkerson would probably be a star if he'd played 20 years ago. I still think he can improve against the pass, but he does seem destined for a career in which he makes like eight of those PFF Pro Bowl teams but only two actual Pro Bowls. I think he'll be Justin Smith lite when all is said and done. Like Smith he's versatile to still make a difference inside when they go 4-down and I think the signs of a similar, very gradual progression from now until his 4th-5th year is in the Cards. IMO he's only at about 65% of the player he'll be by the time he's into his second contract and he doesn't strike me as the type that will cash out and then all of a sudden not give a sh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I think he'll be Justin Smith lite when all is said and done. Like Smith he's versatile to still make a difference inside when they go 4-down and I think the signs of a similar, very gradual progression from now until his 4th-5th year is in the Cards. IMO he's only at about 65% of the player he'll be by the time he's into his second contract and he doesn't strike me as the type that will cash out and then all of a sudden not give a sh*t. Yeah, taking another look at the PFF chart, I think I was aiming low. The numbers say he's having a very similar year to Smith, so that's probably a better comp. I think JiF is right too in that Wilkerson is more disruptive than Ellis ever was. Ditto Coples. They're regularly standing up guards or blowing them three yards into the backfield. Then the LBs just stand there while the runner walks through the hole for 4. It makes me a sad panda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Yeah, taking another look at the PFF chart, I think I was aiming low. The numbers say he's having a very similar year to Smith, so that's probably a better comp. I think JiF is right too in that Wilkerson is more disruptive than Ellis ever was. Ditto Coples. They're regularly standing up guards or blowing them three yards into the backfield. Then the LBs just stand there while the runner walks through the hole for 4. It makes me a sad panda. Justin Smith seems like a good comparison; towards the beginning of the season I bouncing between a young Brett Kiesel and a little Shaun Ellis. All three of those guys remind me of each other, while standing out in their own way. I'd give my left nut for a navaro bowman; an ILB like that dramatically changes the play of this defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Yeah, taking another look at the PFF chart, I think I was aiming low. The numbers say he's having a very similar year to Smith, so that's probably a better comp. I think JiF is right too in that Wilkerson is more disruptive than Ellis ever was. Ditto Coples. They're regularly standing up guards or blowing them three yards into the backfield. Then the LBs just stand there while the runner walks through the hole for 4. It makes me a sad panda. Hopefully Davis turns into a player. He's got instincts, it just looks like he's not trusting them as much as he should. A step late here and there, but you can see the speed difference when he's on the field. The unfortunate part is that Harris is locked up on a ridiculous contract so they wont be targeting his replacement this offseason...but if they dont look to upgrade Thomas and Pace, I might kill Tanny myself. Again, with different LB'ers, I think this defense could be really good and would look a lot different..that and the return of Revis. ****er changes everything. Offense? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Wilkerson is a good young player. He's just FAR from the "Dominating" player Rex made him out to be..... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Wilkerson is a good young player. He's just FAR from the "Dominating" player Rex made him out to be..... BD This isn't really true. He has a ways to go as a pass-rusher, but against the run he's a one-man wrecking crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 This isn't really true. He has a ways to go as a pass-rusher, but against the run he's a one-man wrecking crew. Hard to put much value in him as a run defender when team is ranked 30th in the league..... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Hard to put much value in him as a run defender when team is ranked 30th in the league..... BD That's because of a lead footed LB corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Hard to put much value in him as a run defender when team is ranked 30th in the league..... BD You'll make a fine bitonti someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 You'll make a fine bitonti someday. If Big Mo was that great at run-defense, with Sione in the middle, the Jets wouldn't be 30th. The LBs wouldn't be an issue. They could scheme around those two, if they were so stout. But that hasn't happened..... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodeawhodat Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 if, IF, there is a new HC next year( I hope not) he will be extremely happy we drafted Mo and Coples. my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 It's pretty obvious Big Mo and Coples are more DTs than DEs, and would do well in a true 4-3 defense. The Jets BADLY need some DE pass rushers..... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 He's part of the reason I had to laugh earlier this week when I saw so many people saying that Mangold was the only player on the team worth keeping. Despite their struggles, it's insane to suggest that Mangold is the only guy on the team worth keeping. If the team were to go 5-11 with the entire FO fired, yeah I forgot about Mo. But...consider they would be rebuilding, which non-rookie with a contract more than $2M per would you want to keep? 1. Mangold 2. Mo 3. D'Brick? I'd cut Pace, Scott, J. Smith, E. Smith, Sanchez, try and trade Pouha, Cro and Revis, look to renegotiate, trade or cut Harris and Holmes. Kyle Wilson is basically uncuttable and un-tradable. Last but not least would be to decide what to do with Tebow....That's your big hitters in terms of the cap. Not too far fetched or unimaginable imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 If the team were to go 5-11 with the entire FO fired, yeah I forgot about Mo. But...consider they would be rebuilding, which non-rookie with a contract more than $2M per would you want to keep? 1. Mangold 2. Mo 3. D'Brick? I'd cut Pace, Scott, J. Smith, E. Smith, Sanchez, try and trade Pouha, Cro and Revis, look to renegotiate, trade or cut Harris and Holmes. Kyle Wilson is basically uncuttable and un-tradable. Last but not least would be to decide what to do with Tebow....That's your big hitters in terms of the cap. Not too far fetched or unimaginable imo. Wilson and Tebow aren't much against the cap. Don't expect much to be done with Holmes, Sanchez, or anybody else in their last year. 2014, this team will be out of cap hell, and can start over....... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Wilson and Tebow aren't much against the cap. Don't expect much to be done with Holmes, Sanchez, or anybody else in their last year. 2014, this team will be out of cap hell, and can start over....... BD Yeah, in terms of Wilson and Tebow, that's basically what I said, as I was speaking for the player $2M and over per 2013. Er, Sanchez's contract goes until 2016, Holmes 2015. And yeah I'd expect changes with an entirely new FO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Yeah, in terms of Wilson and Tebow, that's basically what I said, as I was speaking for the player $2M and over per 2013. Er, Sanchez's contract goes until 2016, Holmes 2015. And yeah I'd expect changes with an entirely new FO. Those final years in their deals don't mean anything. These guys WILL be cut in 2014. Those contracts are designed to be torn up after next year They save money against the cap if cut after next year, so why extend or reneg? It's bad cap management...... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Those final years in their deals don't mean anything. These guys WILL be cut in 2014. Those contracts are designed to be torn up after next year They save money against the cap if cut after next year, so why extend or reneg? It's bad cap management...... BD I said cut Sanchez outright. It's a 4M hit in 2013 and probably worth it considering we are talking in the context of new management. Holmes I'd probably cut, but willing to trade for a late round pick if possible. Along with Harris, he is however the only other guy I'd be willing to possibly renegotiate with, if he were willing to play by the new FO's rules. Where I differentiate Holmes from the other players I'd outright cut is, Holmes is still relatively young and talented. If I could significantly lower his 2014 and 2015 cap ($10M), which I know he's not getting on the open market (if cut), I'd be willing to talk...but I never said extend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I said cut Sanchez outright. It's a 4M hit in 2013 and probably worth it considering we are talking in the context of new management. Holmes I'd probably cut, but willing to trade for a late round pick if possible. Along with Harris, he is however the only other guy I'd be willing to possibly renegotiate with, if he were willing to play by the new FO's rules. Where I differentiate Holmes from the other players I'd outright cut is, Holmes is still relatively young and talented. If I could significantly lower his 2014 and 2015 cap ($10M), which I know he's not getting on the open market (if cut), I'd be willing to talk...but I never said extend. It's not a $4M hit, you still have to count his $8M guaranteed salary against your cap, so it's $12M. Unless, you find someone dumb enough to give him $8M for next year. Maybe you can split the costs with somebody, and they'll pay him $4M (Still next to impossible), but $8M is a lot to pay someone not to be there. And as you can see, the team still sees him as somewhat useful, in lieu of the options..... I'd have GMC compete for the job next year, and have Sanchez back him up, if he can win it..... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSJets Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 If the team were to go 5-11 with the entire FO fired, yeah I forgot about Mo. But...consider they would be rebuilding, which non-rookie with a contract more than $2M per would you want to keep? 1. Mangold 2. Mo 3. D'Brick? I'd cut Pace, Scott, J. Smith, E. Smith, Sanchez, try and trade Pouha, Cro and Revis, look to renegotiate, trade or cut Harris and Holmes. Kyle Wilson is basically uncuttable and un-tradable. Last but not least would be to decide what to do with Tebow....That's your big hitters in terms of the cap. Not too far fetched or unimaginable imo. Browns' fans get no vote in the running of the Jets. You have your own team to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Browns' fans get no vote in the running of the Jets. You have your own team to worry about. That's a real nightmare, along with living within 100 miles of the city itself...... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 It's not a $4M hit, you still have to count his $8M guaranteed salary against your cap, so it's $12M. Unless, you find someone dumb enough to give him $8M for next year. Maybe you can split the costs with somebody, and they'll pay him $4M (Still next to impossible), but $8M is a lot to pay someone not to be there. And as you can see, the team still sees him as somewhat useful, in lieu of the options..... I'd have GMC compete for the job next year, and have Sanchez back him up, if he can win it..... BD The 8M is guaranteed? I don't think so but not sure. Thought the guaranteed $ was in his signing bonus? Sure Jason would know. Either way the team may be better off just cutting ties, take the hit plus -4M towards cap. Either way that extension was horrendous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 The 8M is guaranteed? I don't think so but not sure. Thought the guaranteed $ was in his signing bonus? Sure Jason would know. Either way the team may be better off just cutting ties, take the hit plus -4M towards cap. Either way that extension was horrendous. That 2 year extension wasn't designed to be broken. He's there next year, juts like he's here this year Just like Santonio is here..... Nobody is losing 10% of the cap in dead money. That's the only thing worse than playing him! BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 That 2 year extension wasn't designed to be broken. He's there next year, juts like he's here this year Just like Santonio is here..... Nobody is losing 10% of the cap in dead money. That's the only thing worse than playing him! BD The 8M was in signing bonus prorated through the two year extension. Hence 4M, not 8M, against the 2013 cap, no? Base salary is voided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 The 8M was in signing bonus prorated through the two year extension. Hence 4M, not 8M, against the 2013 cap, no? Base salary is voided. No. His salary is $8M next season, whether he plays for the Jets or not. It is guaranteed money. The prorated $4M makes a $12M cap hit. Got it? BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 No. His salary is $8M next season, whether he plays for the Jets or not. It is guaranteed money. The prorated $4M makes a $12M cap hit. Got it? BD Actually, no. Base salary doesn't equate into cap hits if cut, as it is not guaranteed. His cap hit is $4.3M if cut in 2013. Pretty sure this is due to his 8M signing bonus being prorated. Anyone smarter than BD or I want to chime in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I'll be the first to apologize here but I'm pretty sure BD's math is fuzzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Actually, no. Base salary doesn't equate into cap hits if cut, as it is not guaranteed. His cap hit is $4.3M if cut in 2013. Pretty sure this is due to his 8M signing bonus being prorated. Anyone smarter than BD or I want to chime in here. His $8M next year IS guaranteed! And his remaining signing bonus is the rest of the cap hit. If you cut him, you are only paying $8M next year, but his cap charge is $12M. What part of that didn't you get? BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 His $8M next year IS guaranteed! And his remaining signing bonus is the rest of the cap hit. What part of that didn't you get? BD "His $8M next year IS guaranteed!" That part... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 "His $8M next year IS guaranteed!" That part... I don't know why I have to do this for you but: http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7668318/new-york-jets-extend-mark-sanchez-deal-end-pursuit-peyton-manning So you are wrong on that part. Ok? Anything else? BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 So you are wrong on that part. Ok. Anything else? BD Link? Anything you can help to back yourself up with? I'm pretty sure you're wrong and I'm right but like I said, if you, or someone else, can show me, I have no problem apologizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Link? Anything you can help to back yourself up with? I'm pretty sure you're wrong and I'm right but like I said, if you, or someone else, can show me, I have no problem apologizing. Look up..... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Look up..... BD But i want you to!!! Either way it was fun watching you freak a bit. Whatevs, ok I'll google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Why is it so hard for people on this ****ing site to give any credit to a player on the team? When we lose, it's "they suck, cut them all". When we win, it's "the other team sucks". That same team that just played the Niners tough enough to tie them. That same Niners team that beat the sh*t out of the Jets earlier in the year. Wilkerson had a good game. Why does it hurt people so much to admit it? Don't worry, we'll still remember you hate the team. He doesn't get credit because he has been mediocre to this point. Some see mediocrity as a great thing because more jets are below average players than above average. I'll rave about Wilkerson when he takes over a game. I'll rave about couples when he has a dominant series or two, or a game with multiple sacks. But they aren't doing that. Watch other teams and see what good to excellent players achieve. And you'll realize that we have nothing to write. Home about in the talent dept. still, I think Wilkerson can be a player. He just hasn't done much to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDynamite Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 But i want you to!!! Either way it was fun watching you freak a bit. Whatevs, ok I'll google. No. I said look up, as in I posted the link in the post above yours...... BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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