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The All Revis Trade Discussion Threads are the Same Discussion Thread - MERGED NUMEROUS TIMES

jetfan718

By jetfan718
in NY Jets Forum

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SenorGato

SenorGato

Posted
Posted

So says the guy who takes everything an NFL GM says at face value......

Takes a true JN'er to know that my nickname is the Quotes at Face Value Kiiiiid.

Anyway, if Idzik had experience with personnel then maybe I would be placated. Fact is he wasn't a scout, he knows nothing of The Game or who plays it, and you can't just up and learn that after getting the job. He's supporting Sanchez....Says everything right there.

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Klecko73isGod

Klecko73isGod

Posted
Posted

Takes a true JN'er to know that my nickname is the Quotes at Face Value Kiiiiid.

Anyway, if Idzik had experience with personnel then maybe I would be placated. Fact is he wasn't a scout, he knows nothing of The Game or who plays it, and you can't just up and learn that after getting the job. He's supporting Sanchez....Says everything right there.

The guy's father was an NFL coach. He's coached himself and he's been involved in player evaluations. Dude's been around the game his whole life.

He was a pro personnel assistant, director of football administration and assistant GM with the Bucs, and his Seattle bio stresses that besides all the admin stuff he did for them, he also remained “active in player evaluations.” Before the pros he coached at Duke, SUNY Buffalo and for the Aberdeen, as in Scotland, Oilers of the BAFL, as in the British American Football League.

You really should try reading more than headlines from time to time.

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SouthernJet

SouthernJet

Posted
Posted

The guy's father was an NFL coach. He's coached himself and he's been involved in player evaluations. Dude's been around the game his whole life.

You really should try reading more than headlines from time to time.

Kleck, I am really getting sick of you today making so much damn sense ;)

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SouthernJet

SouthernJet

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Oh a pro personnel assistant who was active in player evaluations? Forget it then. Sounds like what old school Football Men did to get a job....OH WAIT...No it doesn't!

Current TB GM Mark Dominik said that he shared office w/Idzik when 1st joining bucs and for several years their job was to break down film on college/pro personell and make recommendations to Front office. Dominik said Idzik knows players and how to evaluate them. he played, he coached, he broke down film. Give him a chance for God's sake.

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slats

slats

Posted
Posted
The guy's father was an NFL coach. He's coached himself and he's been involved in player evaluations. Dude's been around the game his whole life.

You really should try reading more than headlines from time to time.

Gato doesn't believe a word he types, neither should you. He's reduced himself to a one-bad-joke spamming troll. Like most trolls, he harmless as long as he's ignored.

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HessStation

HessStation

Posted
Posted

The guy's father was an NFL coach. He's coached himself and he's been involved in player evaluations. Dude's been around the game his whole life.

You really should try reading more than headlines from time to time.

i think he played WR at Dartmouth? Means he's at least some sort of athlete...i.e. could probably catch a punt.
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pedro55

pedro55

Posted
Posted

The guy's father was an NFL coach. He's coached himself and he's been involved in player evaluations. Dude's been around the game his whole life.

You really should try reading more than headlines from time to time.

Only sports teams does this really matter. "Well, Michael Jordan was so and so's father, so he should be great because of that..."

How does that ever make sense? I mean Kiffin's father was an architect of some great NFL defenses and he's even worked with him in real life, so it should make him great. Except Kiffin is an arrogant prick who sucks as a coach in the NFL and in college.

Having a father or uncle or whomever do something doesn't mean a damn thing. It just meant his father was a coach.

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Klecko73isGod

Klecko73isGod

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Only sports teams does this really matter. "Well, Michael Jordan was so and so's father, so he should be great because of that..."

How does that ever make sense? I mean Kiffin's father was an architect of some great NFL defenses and he's even worked with him in real life, so it should make him great. Except Kiffin is an arrogant prick who sucks as a coach in the NFL and in college.

Having a father or uncle or whomever do something doesn't mean a damn thing. It just meant his father was a coach.

Yeah, because being Archie Manning's son and being taught to break down game film at four years old was no kind of advantage to Peyton.....

It all depends on the person. In Idzik's case it seems that his love for the game stems from being around it from an early age.

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kelly

kelly

Posted
Posted

***

The Revis story.

First, kudos to CBS' Jason La Canfora for breaking the story that the Jets may trade Revis instead of paying him an ungodly sum to stay and anchor their secondary. That's good work by La Canfora.

I am categorically, adamantly opposed to the Jets trading Revis. I believe Woody Johnson will rue the day he trades the best cornerback -- a slightly risky tag, obviously, given that he's coming off October knee surgery -- regardless of how uncomfortable the Jets' salary cap fit is right now. You don't trade great players at vital positions in their prime. You never recoup the value.

In today's game, quarterback is the most important position, followed in some order by pass rusher, cornerback and left tackle. Given that we've just seen the most passes thrown in any NFL season, I'd say corner or pass rusher is now the second-most important position to fill. How good is Revis? I'll let my friend Neil Hornsby of ProFootballFocus.com expound on that right after this section. But in short, he's damn good. And while any knee surgery is a worry, there's no credible indication that he'll be significantly worse for wear in 2013 coming off ACL surgery. Heck, linebacker Thomas Davis of the Panthers tore the same ACL three times in three seasons -- in 2009, 2010 and 2011 -- and still played well in 2012. Revis will be 28 on opening day next year. Two of the league's best five corners in 2012 were Champ Bailey, 34, and Charles Tillman, 31. There is no reason to suggest age will be an issue with Revis.

A couple of pieces of history here.

One: In 2007, when the Jets drafted Revis, they traded their first-, second- and fifth-round picks, 25th, 59th and 164th overall, to Carolina for the 14th pick. Revis was picked 14th. Carolina picked linebacker Jon Beason 25th and center Ryan Kalil 59th. Beason made three Pro Bowls in his first four seasons but has struggled with injuries since; Kalil has started 68 games since, and also has made three Pro Bowl teams. So if you're going to trade Revis, understand you're trading a player who cost you first- and second-round picks to acquire -- and if the Jets had hung onto the second-rounder, they could have turned it into a player at a need position like guard-tackle Marshal Yanda or defensive tackle Brandon Mebane. So it would be folly for the Jets, if they did the deal, to crow about getting first- and second-round picks in return; that's what they traded to get him in the first place.

Two: If the Jets trade Revis, they'll be putting a dagger through coach Rex Ryan's heart. In effect, barring an upset, they'd be firing him nine or 10 months early. They'd be saying to him, We know the most important thing to your defense is the cornerback position, and everything you do on defense is predicated on your corners holding up, but we're trading Revis anyway. After the Jets lost to Peyton Manning in the 2009 AFC title game, Ryan told GM Mike Tannenbaum he had to have more corners, and so the Jets traded a second-round pick to San Diego for cornerback Antonio Cromartie, then drafted cornerback Kyle Wilson from Boise State in the first round. Ryan always said Revis was the best corner he'd been around, but he needed more. And Tannenbaum went out and got them. History has shown the Jets overvalued Wilson, who is just a guy. Cromartie is good. Without Revis, it's a pedestrian secondary. Now, about the money. Revis has a year left on his contract, provided he doesn't hold out, and he will want to be the highest-paid defensive player in the game. Currently, Chicago defensive end Julius Peppers makes an average of $15.3 million a year; Buffalo pass rusher Mario Williams averages $16 million a year. There is no doubt Revis is better at his position than Peppers or Williams is at theirs -- of course, assuming Revis comes back whole from his surgery. You see I keep glossing over the surgery aspect for Revis. That's because knee surgeries are so advanced now that it's assumed the player will be able to return to the form of his former self. Adrian Peterson might have been better this year after a more serious knee surgery than Revis had; Wes Welker, in three seasons of cutting and sprinting since tearing his ACL and MCL, has averaged a league-high 109 catches per year. So although it has to be a concern, I don't think it should concern the Jets enough to scare them off from paying him. If I were the Jets, I'd tell Revis he needs to show he's back to Revis form in the first, say, half of the season. Then I'd lock him up for five years, at $17 million per, in a deal where the guaranteed money will counter-balance the fact that the Jets are in cap trouble right now.

If the Jets choose to shop him, I have a feeling Denver football operations czar John Elway will try hard to convince owner Pat Bowlen that Revis would be the missing piece to a championship team. The Broncos are $14.2 million under the cap this morning, but that doesn't include the estimated $10 million they'd need to budget for free agent tackle Ryan Clady, who's a must-keep. That could be lower, of course, with a long-term deal for Clady. And they could save money by reworking Peyton Manning's $20 million cap number this year.

Andy Reid could be tempted with $17 million of cap room in Kansas City, and GM Trent Baalke in San Francisco could be a player too; the Niners will have significant money available when -- I presume -- they dump Alex Smith before April 1. And there are other teams that might be willing to give a first-round pick plus other value (maybe a third-rounder and a journeyman cornerback as well) for Revis. But remember, the compensation isn't just two picks and a player, or whatever ... it's also wrecking your cap in a flat-cap era for Revis, instead of the significantly more manageable money the fixed-cost high-draft choices now provide.

The Jets also need to make the decision on Revis in 2013. Why? They gave away the ability to franchise Revis when they negotiated the current contract, and so if Revis plays out this year, there's not only the reality of getting nothing in return for him if he walks in free agency. There's also the risk of Revis signing with New England. What's the position that has made Bill Belichick look like a dunce on recent draft days? Cornerback. And if Revis went on to play in New England, and play superbly, the fans would be coming to the Meadowlands with pitchforks and torches looking for owner Woody Johnson.

But I don't care what they'd get in return, unless someone (other than New England, a team the Jets obviously should do no business with) does something stupid like offer three first-rounders and a decent player. It won't be worth it. In this league, at cornerback, if you've got the best, you grit your teeth and pay the man.

***

The Deep End

Each week, thanks to play-by-play game dissection by ProFootballFocus.com, I'm able to look at one important matchup or individual performance metric in pro football through the keen eyes of PFF czar Neil Hornsby. This week, he examines how good Revis is, with the news that the Jets are examining whether to keep Revis or trade him before he becomes an unrestricted free agent in March 2014. Hornsby's report:

"If Darrelle Revis is a player in decline, I don't see it. It doesn't wash from a statistical point of view or on tape. Since 2009, the only season that anyone could legitimately say he wasn't the best corner in football was 2010, where despite clearly being hampered by injury, he still held up incredibly well. Even in 2012, if you extrapolate the very small sample of data, he would have led the league in most categories.

"Simply put, if you throw the ball at him it doesn't get completed. Since 2009, his ranking in completion percentage of balls targeted at him is first, first, second and first (though he had but 93 snaps in 2012). Additionally he doesn't give up big plays -- Revis has allowed only six touchdowns in his last 1,607 coverage snaps -- and consequently quarterbacks have no success throwing at him. The QB rating into his coverage since 2008 has been 32.3, 78.8, 45.6 and 6.3 in those four seasons ... but don't forget that 78.8 came in 2010, when he was playing hurt.

"For those who want to point to the decline of Nnamdi Asomugha since his move to Philadelphia, this is a completely different scenario. Before going east, Asomugha almost always played man coverage on the right side of Oakland's defense. Being the best player in a suboptimal secondary that never changed position, he could be avoided with ease and this allowed him to build a hugely impressive statistical resume. When he was asked to play different positions and more zone, Asomugha's failings became obvious. What makes Revis' resume all the more remarkable is that he almost always tracks the opposition's No. 1 receiver (even into the slot) and far more often than not shuts them down. His track record is remarkable."

***

> http://sportsillustr...uarterback/#all

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kelly

kelly

Posted
Posted

Can Jets, Broncos work another big trade ?

den.gifnyj.gifThe New York Jets and Denver Broncos made headlines last offseason when they combined to make the most-hyped trade in 2012 for Tim Tebow. Could these two teams work out another blockbuster in 2013 with star cornerback Darrelle Revis ?

Peter King of Sports Illustrated thinks it's a legit possibility. King, in his popular "Monday Morning Quarterback" column, lists the Broncos as a favorite in the Revis sweepstakes.Last year, Broncos president John Elway worked closely with former Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum to send Tebow to New York. Would the Jets and new general manager John Idzik return the favor by shipping the best cornerback in the NFL to Denver?

Denver's pass defense was very good last season but struggled in the playoffs against the AFC champion Baltimore Ravens. King also reports the Broncos have the cap room to take on Revis' $6 million salary.Even if it's a one-year rental, Revis paired with future Hall of Fame quarterback Peyton Manning would make the Broncos next season's favorite in the AFC. But the Jets need to only ship Revis to Denver if the trade makes sense for both sides and the Broncos are the highest bidder.

> http://espn.go.com/b...other-big-trade

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LAD_Brooklyn

LAD_Brooklyn

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Broncos would have to give up too much in order to give up enough value as other teams as their 1st and 2nd equates to way less value points then a team like the Bucs or Bengals. Their 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder equals the Bucs lone 1st round pick. We also want a second rounder, so that means a future 1st would also need to be thrown in. Wow this is trading the farm for Revis. But then again if John Elway pushes it then it can happen.

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LAD_Brooklyn

LAD_Brooklyn

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As for the Chiefs who are interested, it's not crazy at all for the Chiefs to swap their 1st rounders and give us a second for Revis. Eric Fisher has close ground on Luke Joeckel as the best LT and to other he's past him as the best LT. That kid had a hack of a senior bowl shutting down those pass rusher in practice as well as in the game. With many mocking Luke Joeckel to go number one, I can see the Chiefs being more than comfortable with Fisher at 9 along with picking up Revis in the process if there's legit interest. As for Arenas, he's way too slow. Good athlete and return man, but Revis for sure would tag up with Flowers to form one of the best CB dues in the league. They also have Hali and Houston on the edge with with other studs such as Berry, Johnson and potentially Poe.

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HessStation

HessStation

Posted
Posted

As for the Chiefs who are interested, it's not crazy at all for the Chiefs to swap their 1st rounders and give us a second for Revis. Eric Fisher has close ground on Luke Joeckel as the best LT and to other he's past him as the best LT. That kid had a hack of a senior bowl shutting down those pass rusher in practice as well as in the game. With many mocking Luke Joeckel to go number one, I can see the Chiefs being more than comfortable with Fisher at 9 along with picking up Revis in the process if there's legit interest. As for Arenas, he's way too slow. Good athlete and return man, but Revis for sure would tag up with Flowers to form one of the best CB dues in the league. They also have Hali and Houston on the edge with with other studs such as Berry, Johnson and potentially Poe.

how about the chief just give us their #1 and 3rd or gtfo.
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Larz

Larz

Posted
Posted

i disagree with King on alot of stuff but he's dead nuts correct that you never get the value back from this type of deal. No matter what the Jets get in return, it will be less than what they are giving up.

but more than when revis walks

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

Posted
Posted

plus a 12 million cap hit. No one brings that up but trading Revis this year, is a huge cap loser.

It's been brought up to death. I've brought it up only 15 times myself.

He's a $12M cap hit to trade, but it's a "net" cap hit of $3M. $3M is locked into hitting 2013's cap no matter what. So you don't count that twice. Plus his $6M salary for the year.

Lose him next year and it's a pure $9M cap hit, which is a pure net $9M hit.

Keep him via an extension/reworking of his current deal and add $3M/year to whatever numbers we agree upon for the cap hits through 2016 for money we've already paid him in the past (your $12M divided over 4 years). So new deal worth $17M/year is effectively $20M/year, etc.

He isn't worth that, and the reason isn't because he isn't a great enough CB.

We'll see what his real demands are. No one wants to trade Revis just for the sake of trading him. He is not affordable long-term (even less so for us than for another team because of his prior bonus money I mentioned), and a long-term deal doesn't mean squat to him. Barring a similar clause Tannenbaum put in there, where he get extended forever at cheap dollars if he holds out for even 1 hour, he's just going to hold out again in a couple of years. And I don't see him signing another contract with that language in it because he clearly wanted to hold out yet again before the 2012 season.

We can't afford him long term, can't trust him to not hold out again if we can find common ground on a reasonable deal, and are going nowhere this year with or without him. Get something for him while we can unless he agrees to a $10-12M/year deal with aggressive anti-holdout language in it (meaning salaries are guaranteed rather than a lot of signing bonus money being paid, and those guarantees disappear if he holds out and his non-guaranteed salary drops to $3M/year). He'll never sign that so get something for him while the iron's hot.

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stoicsentry

stoicsentry

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Posted

As for the Chiefs who are interested, it's not crazy at all for the Chiefs to swap their 1st rounders and give us a second for Revis. Eric Fisher has close ground on Luke Joeckel as the best LT and to other he's past him as the best LT. That kid had a hack of a senior bowl shutting down those pass rusher in practice as well as in the game. With many mocking Luke Joeckel to go number one, I can see the Chiefs being more than comfortable with Fisher at 9 along with picking up Revis in the process if there's legit interest. As for Arenas, he's way too slow. Good athlete and return man, but Revis for sure would tag up with Flowers to form one of the best CB dues in the league. They also have Hali and Houston on the edge with with other studs such as Berry, Johnson and potentially Poe.

Um, why would we do that trade? Ridiculous.

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faba

faba

Posted
Posted

It's been brought up to death. I've brought it up only 15 times myself.

He's a $12M cap hit to trade, but it's a "net" cap hit of $3M. $3M is locked into hitting 2013's cap no matter what. So you don't count that twice. Plus his $6M salary for the year.

Lose him next year and it's a pure $9M cap hit, which is a pure net $9M hit.

Keep him via an extension/reworking of his current deal and add $3M/year to whatever numbers we agree upon for the cap hits through 2016 for money we've already paid him in the past (your $12M divided over 4 years). So new deal worth $17M/year is effectively $20M/year, etc.

He isn't worth that, and the reason isn't because he isn't a great enough CB.

We'll see what his real demands are. No one wants to trade Revis just for the sake of trading him. He is not affordable long-term (even less so for us than for another team because of his prior bonus money I mentioned), and a long-term deal doesn't mean squat to him. Barring a similar clause Tannenbaum put in there, where he get extended forever at cheap dollars if he holds out for even 1 hour, he's just going to hold out again in a couple of years. And I don't see him signing another contract with that language in it because he clearly wanted to hold out yet again before the 2012 season.

We can't afford him long term, can't trust him to not hold out again if we can find common ground on a reasonable deal, and are going nowhere this year with or without him. Get something for him while we can unless he agrees to a $10-12M/year deal with aggressive anti-holdout language in it (meaning salaries are guaranteed rather than a lot of signing bonus money being paid, and those guarantees disappear if he holds out and his non-guaranteed salary drops to $3M/year). He'll never sign that so get something for him while the iron's hot.

Sperm our capologist supreme! WE or any team can not handicap ourselves tying too much into one player- so if we can not make it work we have to explore trading Revis

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bitonti

bitonti

Posted
Posted

We can't afford him long term,

If the Jets can't afford him, how can other teams? Everyone has the same salary cap.

Not being sarcastic I really want to know how 121 million in payroll doesn't have room for another Revis contract.

Grantland says he's the best player ever to be put on the block. fwiw.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/49012/how-darrelle-revis-compares-to-the-best-players-ever-traded

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LAD_Brooklyn

LAD_Brooklyn

Posted
Posted

Um, why would we do that trade? Ridiculous.

Huh? Do you have any insight of the value of draft picks? The 1st overall is valued at 3,000 points while the 9th overall is 1,350. For us to normally trade up to the 1st it would require swapping a high 1st, giving up their current 2nd rounder and trading away 2 future 1st round picks. This is similar to what the Redskins did to trade up with the Rams.

Having the number one pick is a huge trade asset for any team looking for an elite prospect or a ransom. Also their 2nd round pick is the 33rd pick? That's like a late 1st rounder.

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LAD_Brooklyn

LAD_Brooklyn

Posted
Posted

If the Jets can't afford him, how can other teams? Everyone has the same salary cap.

Not being sarcastic I really want to know how 121 million in payroll doesn't have room for another Revis contract.

Grantland says he's the best player ever to be put on the block. fwiw.

http://www.grantland...ers-ever-traded

It's make zero sense when people utter that. We may only have $55 mil on the books in 2014 with Scott, Sanchez, Holmes, Cro and Pouha gone. I thought the whole point of trading him was not being able to agree upon a reasonable contract?

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