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O-Line dept. : we're 3rd ~ ~ ~


kelly
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Surprise : O-line ranks third in NFL

Even the most devout Jets fan might find this hard to believe, but the Jets fielded one of the premier offensive lines in 2012, according to the stats-based website ProFootballFocus.com.According to PFF, the Jets' line finished third out of 32 teams in its statistical analysis, behind only the 49ers and Patriots. The Jets ranked seventh in pass blocking, third in run blocking and third in penalties, per PFF.Somewhere, Dave DeGuglielmo is smiling. Well, maybe not smiling, but muttering under his breath, "I told you so." The offensive-line coach, who made his utter disdain for the media quite clear in his three (count 'em, three) group interviews over the course of the season, was sensitive to the criticism heaped upon his unit. Ironically, he railed against stats-based websites for having no clue as to how to grade linemen.

Well, now one of those websites is patting him on the back, basically exonerating the line for the offense's problems. DeGuglielmo's reaction? Don't know; we'll have to wait for the next hurricane. (Inside joke.) The kicker here is that his job is hanging by a thread, with a chance he might not be retained.

Anyhoo, here's PFF's analysis of the Jets' line :

Stud : There were plenty of contenders here, but given some of the guys he kept in check, credit to D'Brickashaw Ferguson (+23.5) for a fine year.

Dud : The run blocking of Matt Slauson (+2.5) left a lot to be desired.

Summary : Everybody wants to poke fun at the Jets, and for some reason the offensive line got caught in the crossfire. It wasn't quite its dominant self in the early weeks of the season, but they finishing playing as well as any team. Nick Mangold and Brandon Moore played angry, while Austin Howard found his feet as an NFL tackle. Still, a line can only do so much to put skill players in position to do good things, and in that regard the Jets are sorely lacking.

> http://espn.go.com/b...ks-third-in-nfl

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Still, a line can only do so much to put skill players in position to do good things, and in that regard the Jets are sorely lacking.

Been saying this all year. The line does its job. Shonn Greene wishes he was as good as Adrian Murrell, and Mark Sanchez crumbles at the word pressure.

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is this going to mean you think you are right about everything?

ha ha no i am wrong about most things. Sun shines on a dogs ass tho

side note I understand why people think the OL sucks. Matt in post 6 nails it. Compared to the 2009 all time great line, they are not nearly as good.

but compared to the lines that exist in the NFL in 2012, they are damn good.

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Stats and measurables mean nothing when it comes to Oline. I happen to coach Oline and I can tell you this...it operates as a unit. Grade RB or WR or DE by stats. That's a bit closer to being a fair representation. But a line depends on the TE and the RBs to assist in blocking schemes. Also, how do you rate how good a guy is at pulling if he's too slow to pull and thus is forced to block the head-up defender all the time. How do you rate a player on traps when a trap depends on at least three lineman and a QB/RB exchange to mesh in perfect timing? How do you guage how good a guard is if he's constantly posting the nose or chipping the DT before heading to the 'backer? How do you guage how a guy picks up 'backers on th move if his feet are not coordinated enough to get there so he just blocks backside pursuit? How can you call a player a good lineman when he has so many different responsibilities on a rotating basis depending on defensive formation, that you don't even know if he's doing the job he's supposed to be doing? how about combo blocks in a zone scheme. Sliding on a stretch play? Cut-blocks on slants and screens? Not every guy can do these things or at least ALL of these things, so how do you guage a lineman by stats? You don't. If you could, scouts would look at sacks given up and yardage gained on inside runs and get the guy with the best numbers. Of course that would be as ridiculous and nonsensical as the Jets #3 ranking.

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Stats and measurables mean nothing when it comes to Oline. I happen to coach Oline and I can tell you this...it operates as a unit. Grade RB or WR or DE by stats. That's a bit closer to being a fair representation. But a line depends on the TE and the RBs to assist in blocking schemes. Also, how do you rate how good a guy is at pulling if he's too slow to pull and thus is forced to block the head-up defender all the time. How do you rate a player on traps when a trap depends on at least three lineman and a QB/RB exchange to mesh in perfect timing? How do you guage how good a guard is if he's constantly posting the nose or chipping the DT before heading to the 'backer? How do you guage how a guy picks up 'backers on th move if his feet are not coordinated enough to get there so he just blocks backside pursuit? How can you call a player a good lineman when he has so many different responsibilities on a rotating basis depending on defensive formation, that you don't even know if he's doing the job he's supposed to be doing? how about combo blocks in a zone scheme. Sliding on a stretch play? Cut-blocks on slants and screens? Not every guy can do these things or at least ALL of these things, so how do you guage a lineman by stats? You don't. If you could, scouts would look at sacks given up and yardage gained on inside runs and get the guy with the best numbers. Of course that would be as ridiculous and nonsensical as the Jets #3 ranking.

agree that the PFF ranking of OL is not perfect. WIthout the play call there's no way of knowing who is supposed to block whom.

But if you look at the players themselves... how many LT are better than Brick. How many C are better than Mangold? The Jets have 2 perennial pro bowlers out of 5. they were rotating 7 deep with Smith and Vlad. Maybe they aren't 3rd, maybe they are 6th. But they aren't 32nd like many fans believe. Not even close. Other lines were decimated by injury, compared to the Eagles, Chargers etc the Jets OL are awesome.

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agree that the PFF ranking of OL is not perfect. WIthout the play call there's no way of knowing who is supposed to block whom.

But if you look at the players themselves... how many LT are better than Brick. How many C are better than Mangold? The Jets have 2 perennial pro bowlers out of 5. they were rotating 7 deep with Smith and Vlad. Maybe they aren't 3rd, maybe they are 6th. But they aren't 32nd like many fans believe. Not even close. Other lines were decimated by injury, compared to the Eagles, Chargers etc the Jets OL are awesome.

Fair enough. They are neither a top line, nor a trash heap line. I can live with that. What annoys me is when everyone comes out saying the line is the "least of our worries" because they dont want to draft OL (its not sexy enough) or trade for it. A dominant line is the backbone of any offense. I would love to see one of our top two picks spent there. But we as Jets fans have gotten used to shopping for our groceries in the candy aisle. Let's face it, Faneca did far more for this team than Brett Favre ever did. Damien Woody, Mangold, D'Brick...they were far more valuable aquisitions than Holmes, Plaxico or Mason. Yet we've ignored OL the last three years. Ducasse and Robert Griffin notwithstanding.

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I would love to see one of our top two picks spent there.

i love the offensive line as a position and personally would be very happy if the Jets took a great OL like Chance Warmack. But drafting a guard doesn't solve any problems on this team. Taking the OL from good to great is nice but it ignores greater issues. Like the league's worst offensive skill positions.

to borrow a line of logic from other threads, what did the 2009 line win? eventually they need to be more explosive and put up more points. Not ground and pound it harder.

Edited by bitonti
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i love the offensive line as a position and personally would be very happy if the Jets took a great OL like Chance Warmack. But drafting a guard doesn't solve any problems on this team. Taking the OL from good to great is nice but it ignores greater issues. Like the league's worst offensive skill positions.

to borrow a line of logic from other threads, what did the 2009 line win? eventually they need to be more explosive and put up more points. Not ground and pound it harder.

There a false equivalent to that thinking, though. What would the 2009 team have done with a less dominant Oline? And a great Oline is not necessarily a Ground and Pound line. The WCO depends on athletic lineman to block downfield, pull in both directions and block on the move. Denver has had one of the smallest Olines over the past decade and a half traditionally, yet they were also one of the most effective. The idea that all good lineman are straight-ahead road graders used to plow through defenses is outdated and inaccurate.

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Denver has had one of the smallest Olines over the past decade and a half traditionally, yet they were also one of the most effective.

i agree but except for LT the Denver OL (and most OL in the league) has mid rounders as starters. Do the Jets really need to use another 1st or 2nd rounder on the team's strength? This would be like drafting another 3-4 DE it's the least of their problems.

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Funny thing is the Jet o line was always criticized. Perception and reality are 2 different things. They did not have positive reviews for Slauson who was not good against the run at all. Brandon Moore concerns me because he seems very beat up but they graded him very high. As for Austin Howard I thought he played well for a rookie and I think he can improve. The biggest issue is having Mangold and Ferguson play at a probowl level that is what we need. Many times sacks were not on the o line but on our qb... How many times did you scream at the tc when sanchez held on to the ball. I think we said the same thing when mccelroy was sacked 11 times. I believe all this is due to the fact that our receivers could not get any seperation. The offense we ran lets face it was not good. How many easy throws were there for Sanchez with dump off to our backs? Not many.. when we had them he missed allot of them

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Howard wasn't a rookie. He's in his 3rd year. He had a few starts for Philly in 2010 and was a practice squad guy with the Ravens and Jets in 2011. Howard was the quality that everybody thought we were getting with Adrien Clarke. Slauson being poor in the run game is interesting. They will likely be switching at least one guard. Hopefully Ducasse is capable at one spot. The offensive line might not have been the 3rd best in the NFL, but I think this still indicates that they weren't the problem.

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My bad your right, but Howard was relatively inexperienced and when the Jets picked him up he was picked off of the practice squad from the Ravens.....I thought that was a great find although he did allow allot of qb hits I forgot the stat but it wasnt good... I think he played well and he is big guy.... I am not sure about Ducasse... they did work him in last year but that was mandated by Mr T apparently... Guggs was not happy...I agree I dont think they were the 3rd best but they are good and maybe switch out Slauson if that is the weakness and they can be even better....The new offense will be very pass heavy.... interested to see who they bring in... Last time we ran a west coast offense was Paul Hackett and that offense with Pennington was explosive...I think Hackett was good but allot of NY press didnt like him..

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So Tannenbaum gets no credit for Howard right?

Credit? For not adderessing the tackle position, deciding to go with a career backup who failed so miserably, he was forced to take a kid with mediocre talent off another team's scrap heap and makehim a sub-par starter who needed a ton of help in pass protection because we had no backup plan in place? Yeah. sure. I give Tannenbaum ALL the credit for that one. Or did you mean he should get credit for having no backup center or for drafting Vald or do you mean for finding the wunderkind Robbie Felix. Oh, and trading for Caleb Shladeraf. Don't forget that one. he gets credit for that too. And drafting Robert Griffon. the other robert Griffin. Who couldn't get out of his own way and was an early cut. Yes. He gets credit for all of this. Which is why he's no longer General Manager of the New York Jets.

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Credit? For not adderessing the tackle position, deciding to go with a career backup who failed so miserably, he was forced to take a kid with mediocre talent off another team's scrap heap and makehim a sub-par starter who needed a ton of help in pass protection because we had no backup plan in place? Yeah. sure. I give Tannenbaum ALL the credit for that one. Or did you mean he should get credit for having no backup center or for drafting Vald or do you mean for finding the wunderkind Robbie Felix. Oh, and trading for Caleb Shladeraf. Don't forget that one. he gets credit for that too. And drafting Robert Griffon. the other robert Griffin. Who couldn't get out of his own way and was an early cut. Yes. He gets credit for all of this. Which is why he's no longer General Manager of the New York Jets.

Credit for having the 3rd best Oline. You can squawk away about all that bullsh*t, but they did have a backup C. It's Slauson. The year before they had Turner who got hurt before Mangold. The Jets have had a good to dominant line during the time that Tannenbaum was GM.

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Credit? For not adderessing the tackle position, deciding to go with a career backup who failed so miserably, he was forced to take a kid with mediocre talent off another team's scrap heap and makehim a sub-par starter who needed a ton of help in pass protection because we had no backup plan in place? Yeah. sure. I give Tannenbaum ALL the credit for that one. Or did you mean he should get credit for having no backup center or for drafting Vald or do you mean for finding the wunderkind Robbie Felix. Oh, and trading for Caleb Shladeraf. Don't forget that one. he gets credit for that too. And drafting Robert Griffon. the other robert Griffin. Who couldn't get out of his own way and was an early cut. Yes. He gets credit for all of this. Which is why he's no longer General Manager of the New York Jets.

Too bad there aren't 32 pro-bowlers to pick from at every position.

SMH.

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Credit for having the 3rd best Oline. You can squawk away about all that bullsh*t, but they did have a backup C. It's Slauson. The year before they had Turner who got hurt before Mangold. The Jets have had a good to dominant line during the time that Tannenbaum was GM.

I'd argue but I can't considering the audience. We obviously had an awesome line this year.

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Fair enough. They are neither a top line, nor a trash heap line. I can live with that. What annoys me is when everyone comes out saying the line is the "least of our worries" because they dont want to draft OL (its not sexy enough) or trade for it. A dominant line is the backbone of any offense. I would love to see one of our top two picks spent there. But we as Jets fans have gotten used to shopping for our groceries in the candy aisle. Let's face it, Faneca did far more for this team than Brett Favre ever did. Damien Woody, Mangold, D'Brick...they were far more valuable aquisitions than Holmes, Plaxico or Mason. Yet we've ignored OL the last three years. Ducasse and Robert Griffin notwithstanding.

Well, Ducasse was a 2nd round pick. A terrible 2nd round pick, but it's not like they ignored the line completely. They just should have drafted better.

Given his pay, Howard was a good pickup last year, as it turns out.

As it stands, we have 3 o-linemen, each of which were 1st rounders, and they have 10+ pro-bowls between 'em. The LT and the C are both franchise players. How many teams would you say have invested more than us?

Further, if you were in control, how much would YOU be investing in our o-line? Give me a general sense, here. Are we talking spending a 1st-3rd round pick every year, or what?

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Well, Ducasse was a 2nd round pick. A terrible 2nd round pick, but it's not like they ignored the line completely. They just should have drafted better.

Given his pay, Howard was a good pickup last year, as it turns out.

As it stands, we have 3 o-linemen, each of which were 1st rounders, and they have 10+ pro-bowls between 'em. The LT and the C are both franchise players. How many teams would you say have invested more than us?

Further, if you were in control, how much would YOU be investing in our o-line? Give me a general sense, here. Are we talking spending a 1st-3rd round pick every year, or what?

Fair question. No I wouldn't invest high draft picks for Oline every year, just this year as we have two weak spots and poor depth. If Ducasse had worked out, this would be a non-issue, but the guy hasn't been able to unseat a mediocre Slauson, and is a liability as an every down player. Brick and Mangold were drafted in 2006. Moore is old and beginning to wear down. It's time to re-invest. Ideally 3rd thru 5th rounds would be a good place to take at least one lineman every year. But Trader Mike saw fit to use those picks for Trade-ups and Tebow and the like. He liked to go splashy, but did little to shore up the foundation. As for us having too many high picks in one area, it didn't stop us from drafting Coples when our two highest picks the year before were Dlineman. It didn't stop us from drafting Wilson when we had Revis on the other side (who cost a 1st, 2nd and 5th). So, the line needs help. A replacement for Austin or Slauson (I think we can do well with one of them on the line...just not both at the same time), a replacement for Moore in the long run, and a solid backup tackle (who's going to back up Brick should he go down? Austin?). Slauson stays to backup G and C. Austin stays to backup T. Ducasse gets cut. That leaves us taking one guy in the draft and solving our Oline issues completely should he be solid and not another "project".

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I'd argue but I can't considering the audience. We obviously had an awesome line this year.

Fair enough. I'm not actually jumping up and down and saying that they were 3rd best or awesome. OTOH, they were at worst "good" and as far as the Oline goes I see valid reasoning for every move made since the release of Kendall. Actually, I saw the reasoning behind releasing Kendall, but not in the backup plan or lack thereof.

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I don't like drafting for need, so I disagree with the above. The reasoning is fine, but I'd draft BAP and pick up FAs for need.

I don't like drafting for need, so I disagree with the above. The reasoning is fine, but I'd draft BAP and pick up FAs for need.

we're gonna have to clear some salary cap space to " pick up FAs "...

:beer:

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