Tannenbaum says Tebow was his idea (although he confuses the pronoun we)

[#27TheDominator]

So, in other words, don't give in to the coach who is trying to save his job short term.

We both know that I am a Rex guy, but yes. That is also why I don't believe you can judge whether Rex keeps his job strictly on W-L record. It's what he does with what he has, how the young players develop and if the team keeps playing hard.

[JFtoLong]

I hope he was fired because over the course of seven years at the helm he never demonstrated any sort of plan for putting a team together. That every move seemed to be separate from every other move. I hope he was fired for trading away too many picks, and overpaying the picks he decided to keep. I hope he was fired for a salary cap structure that has an inside linebacker and a center as two of the team's highest paid players.

You really need to take your Rex beer goggles off...

How can you say for 7 years he never demonstrated a plan??

Seriously?

The Jets under Mangini were constantly criticized for sticking to the "plan" at all costs.

It may not have been a great plan, but they certainly did have a plan, and they stuck to it to a T when Mangini was HC.

Amazingly, once Rex became HC, the moves suddenly had no correlation, no apparent meaning.

Amazing how the same "GM" had such a complete philosophical change.

Face the facts, Tanny was fired for Rex's plan, or lack thereof.

Tanny has been GM in name only since he got that title, he has never, ever been a true GM, just as Pioli was not a true GM in NE.

[Scott Dierking]

You really need to take your Rex beer goggles off...

How can you say for 7 years he never demonstrated a plan??

Seriously?

The Jets under Mangini were constantly criticized for sticking to the "plan" at all costs.

It may not have been a great plan, but they certainly did have a plan, and they stuck to it to a T when Mangini was HC.

Amazingly, once Rex became HC, the moves suddenly had no correlation, no apparent meaning.

Amazing how the same "GM" had such a complete philosophical change.

Face the facts, Tanny was fired for Rex's plan, or lack thereof.

Tanny has been GM in name only since he got that title, he has never, ever been a true GM, just as Pioli was not a true GM in NE.

The plan the past 4 years was to gear up on defense at all costs, and leave the offense pedestrian.

Think this was ALL Tannenbaum?

[Scott Dierking]

We both know that I am a Rex guy, but yes. That is also why I don't believe you can judge whether Rex keeps his job strictly on W-L record. It's what he does with what he has, how the young players develop and if the team keeps playing hard.

He had his contract extended strictly on W-L record.

Coaches are judged by the records they record. It is not like Rex adds intangibles that make him a franchise legacy.

Rex helped put the team in the mess that he will inherit next year. His hands are not completely clean

[slats]

I haven't really studied it, but I remember reading some pieces by Jason on the topic. He considered the Jets window to be 2010-2013 and then they'd be able to reload. I think the GM will be in pretty good shape for 2014 if he doesn't do a half-assed job of trying to add one or two wins this year at the cost of one or two wins next year. I don't think it's that big a job. More like starting with a fairly clean slate- which can be a big job, but it's nothing like being in the 2013 handcuffs.

The cap isn't as terrible as the overall lack of depth. It's all the traded away picks that hurt the most. This is where being a football man would come in handy. This year, his hands are tied in free agency, so he has to really maximize the draft. Next year, he should be freer to spend, but that'll depend on some of the decisions he makes very soon (i.e.: Revis).

[JFtoLong]

The plan the past 4 years was to gear up on defense at all costs, and leave the offense pedestrian.

Think this was ALL Tannenbaum?

If you have read my posts for the past several months, you know where I firmly stand on this issue.

I would say this is 90% Rex, 10% Tannenbaum.

However, many Rex lovers on this board believe this was Tannenbaums plan, and poor Rex had to suffer the consequences of Tannys decisions, that Rex was so clearly fighting against, because he wanted to build a dynamic offense from day one.

[slats]

You really need to take your Rex beer goggles off...

How can you say for 7 years he never demonstrated a plan??

Seriously?

The Jets under Mangini were constantly criticized for sticking to the "plan" at all costs.

It may not have been a great plan, but they certainly did have a plan, and they stuck to it to a T when Mangini was HC.

Amazingly, once Rex became HC, the moves suddenly had no correlation, no apparent meaning.

Amazing how the same "GM" had such a complete philosophical change.

Face the facts, Tanny was fired for Rex's plan, or lack thereof.

Tanny has been GM in name only since he got that title, he has never, ever been a true GM, just as Pioli was not a true GM in NE.

Wow, that's a lot of crap, unless you consider drafting boyscouts to be a "plan."

[slats]

If you have read my posts for the past several months, you know where I firmly stand on this issue.

I would say this is 90% Rex, 10% Tannenbaum.

You previously said 80%-20%, lol.

However, many Rex lovers on this board believe this was Tannenbaums plan, and poor Rex had to suffer the consequences of Tannys decisions, that Rex was so clearly fighting against, because he wanted to build a dynamic offense from day one.

There is not a single person on this board who has ever said the above here. Not a single one.

[JFtoLong]

Wow, that's a lot of crap, unless you consider drafting boyscouts to be a "plan."

I don't even know what to say to this.....

The plan under Mangini was to switch to a 3-4 defense, that could adapt on a week by week basis to their opponent. And, to run the ball.

They started with a 4-3 Tampa 2 roster, and converted it.

Every move they made was to achieve this, every single one, to a fault.

They drafted guys who they thought were smart, and tough, and good character guys, who fit the scheme, and they built an excellent o-line as well.

They had a plan, and stuck to it perfectly, rather than saying what a load of crap it is, why don't you take the Rex beer goggles off, and counter my points, or are you just more interested in one line rebuts with no argument?

If so, I will stop wasting my time now.

[JFtoLong]

You previously said 80%-20%, lol.

There is not a single person on this board who has ever said the above here. Not a single one.

I have refined my position, glad out of all the things you chose to rebut, it was that one, LOL, says a LOT!

There are PLENTY who imply it on a regular basis.

[#27TheDominator]

He had his contract extended strictly on W-L record.

Coaches are judged by the records they record. It is not like Rex adds intangibles that make him a franchise legacy.

Rex helped put the team in the mess that he will inherit next year. His hands are not completely clean

And?

I'm not disputing any of that. To say the guy has to be fired if they don't make the playoffs and then go into the season cutting salaries and not renegotiating so that you have a ton of space in 2014 is stupid. Period. They can do it, but that doesn't make it right. The guy keeps or loses his job based on what he does with what he has. If you give him a team and he loses he's out. If you don't then you judge performance based on player development and wins-losses comparative to the talent level. How they finish will also be important. Losing the last three for the last two years really colors our perception, just as the long playoff runs did the opposite in 2009 and 2010.

[slats]

I don't even know what to say to this.....

The plan under Mangini was to switch to a 3-4 defense, that could adapt on a week by week basis to their opponent. And, to run the ball.

They started with a 4-3 Tampa 2 roster, and converted it.

Every move they made was to achieve this, every single one, to a fault.

They drafted guys who they thought were smart, and tough, and good character guys, who fit the scheme, and they built an excellent o-line as well.

They had a plan, and stuck to it perfectly, rather than saying what a load of crap it is, why don't you take the Rex beer goggles off, and counter my points, or are you just more interested in one line rebuts with no argument?

If so, I will stop wasting my time now.

What moves are they? Schlegel? Gholston?

When Mangini was shown the door, Tannenbaum was given the credit for all the the team's good moves, and Mangini was credited with the above. You're the one with the revisionist history lesson.

I agree with you that Rex had too much say in personnel decisions, but disagree on your reasons. My feeling is that Tannenbaum was weak, lacked any personnel evaluations skills of his own, and leaned too heavily on Rex as a result. Tannenbaum may've been partnered with Mangini, but he hired Rex. He was Rex's boss. He just sucked at it. Now he's gone. But this is a failing of the boss, for relying on underlings who are also not qualified to do the job that he was ultimately responsible for. That's why I believe he was fired.

I want Rex out of the personnel decisions. I'm hoping Idzik really is the adult in the room.

[slats]

I have refined my position, glad out of all the things you chose to rebut, it was that one, LOL, says a LOT!

There are PLENTY who imply it on a regular basis.

Imply? Show me.

I'll stand by not a single one. You need a strawman to argue against for some odd reason, and constantly prop him up.

[JFtoLong]

What moves are they? Schlegel? Gholston?

When Mangini was shown the door, Tannenbaum was given the credit for all the the team's good moves, and Mangini was credited with the above. You're the one with the revisionist history lesson.

I agree with you that Rex had too much say in personnel decisions, but disagree on your reasons. My feeling is that Tannenbaum was weak, lacked any personnel evaluations skills of his own, and leaned too heavily on Rex as a result. Tannenbaum may've been partnered with Mangini, but he hired Rex. He was Rex's boss. He just sucked at it. Now he's gone. But this is a failing of the boss, for relying on underlings who are also not qualified to do the job that he was ultimately responsible for. That's why I believe he was fired.

I want Rex out of the personnel decisions. I'm hoping Idzik really is the adult in the room.

1) Schlegal and Gholston were attrocious picks, but to say they did not fit what they were TRYING to accomplish is completely clueless. Schlegel was drafted to be a MLB in the 3-4, Gholston was drafted to provide a much needed pass rush.

They were both God awful picks, but I never once argued they did a great job with scouting, my argument was they had a plan and stuck to it, never even said it was a good plan.

2)That is always, always the case when a "team" is broken up like that, and one stays. Just like now, Tanny is getting all the blame, and Rex is getting more power. Open your eyes, take off the beer goggles you have for Rex.

3) I don't like Tanny, nor defend him at all, I am glad he is gone, but Rex should be gone too. If you cannot rely on your HC for personnel input, you have a major, major problem. Rex has proven time and time again, he sucks as a personnel evaluator, which for this and many, many other reasons, I don't want him as HC of the Jets.

If you want him to be a DC, I love that, would be thrilled with that, but I don't under any circumstances believe you can have a successful franchise if the HC cannot strongly contribute to personnel decisions, they don't have to be the final say, but you damn well better be able to evaluate talent, it is a core fundamental job responsibility as HC.

[unbanmadmike1]

1) Schlegal and Gholston were attrocious picks, but to say they did not fit what they were TRYING to accomplish is completely clueless. Schlegel was drafted to be a MLB in the 3-4, Gholston was drafted to provide a much needed pass rush.

They were both God awful picks, but I never once argued they did a great job with scouting, my argument was they had a plan and stuck to it, never even said it was a good plan.

2)That is always, always the case when a "team" is broken up like that, and one stays. Just like now, Tanny is getting all the blame, and Rex is getting more power. Open your eyes, take off the beer goggles you have for Rex.

3) I don't like Tanny, nor defend him at all, I am glad he is gone, but Rex should be gone too. If you cannot rely on your HC for personnel input, you have a major, major problem. Rex has proven time and time again, he sucks as a personnel evaluator, which for this and many, many other reasons, I don't want him as HC of the Jets.

If you want him to be a DC, I love that, would be thrilled with that, but I don't under any circumstances believe you can have a successful franchise if the HC cannot strongly contribute to personnel decisions, they don't have to be the final say, but you damn well better be able to evaluate talent, it is a core fundamental job responsibility as HC.

Pretty much this. If you can't rely on your HC to pick players you're in big trouble. And thats before you get to his total ineptitude on offense.

[#27TheDominator]

I don't say it often, but LOL.

Rex is being given more power? Yep. I'm sure. Just like Lovie Smith.

[slats]

3) I don't like Tanny, nor defend him at all, I am glad he is gone, but Rex should be gone too. If you cannot rely on your HC for personnel input, you have a major, major problem. Rex has proven time and time again, he sucks as a personnel evaluator, which for this and many, many other reasons, I don't want him as HC of the Jets.

Rex's job should not be talent evaluation. It's not the job of many -if not most- head coaches in the league. That's why teams have scouting departments and general managers in the first place. Sure, you listen to your head coach, but you need a guy in charge who's capable of identifying talent on his own. Tannenbaum was not that guy.

Going forward, it's my hope that Idzik is a capable personnel guy. I'm taking a wait and see approach on him, as his résumé isn't all that convincing to me.

I was very clear during the GM replacement process that I'd be perfectly fine with -and even preferring- that the new GM picks his own coach. So if I'm lumped in with your Rex lovers, Rex implyers, Rex beer-goggle wearers, etc., it really just further goes to show how weak your strawman arguments are in my eyes.

I do believe that if Rex's job is simply to coach, then he can be successful. But I also won't shed any tears if Idzik opts to fire him at the end of the season, either.

[unbanmadmike1]

Rex's job should not be talent evaluation. It's not the job of many -if not most- head coaches in the league. That's why teams have scouting departments and general managers in the first place. Sure, you listen to your head coach, but you need a guy in charge who's capable of identifying talent on his own. Tannenbaum was not that guy.

Going forward, it's my hope that Idzik is a capable personnel guy. I'm taking a wait and see approach on him, as his résumé isn't all that convincing to me.

I was very clear during the GM replacement process that I'd be perfectly fine with -and even preferring- that the new GM picks his own coach. So if I'm lumped in with your Rex lovers, Rex implyers, Rex beer-goggle wearers, etc., it really just further goes to show how weak your strawman arguments are in my eyes.

I do believe that if Rex's job is simply to coach, then he can be successful. But I also won't shed any tears if Idzik opts to fire him at the end of the season, either.

If you don't think your coach has to be able to scout talent you're fooling yourself. He's the guy who cuts to 53 men and decides who gets playing time so even if he isn't the final say in FA and the draft, if he's inept at player evaluation that is going to hurt your team.

[#27TheDominator]

Rex beer goggle wearer here. You can blame Rex for the draft picks and/or Mangini, but if that is the case, what the **** does Tannenbaum bring to the table? I can see deferring to the coach about specific players (Rex wants Coples, Tanny has Chandler Jones rated higher) but the GM has to stand up to the coach and say WE NEED OFFENSE at some ****ing point or he is a meaningless spectator. Either it's the GM's fault for being a sh*tty talent evaluator or the GM's fault for being a weakassed bitch.

[slats]

If you don't think your coach has to be able to scout talent you're fooling yourself. He's the guy who cuts to 53 men and decides who gets playing time so even if he isn't the final say in FA and the draft, if he's inept at player evaluation that is going to hurt your team.

There's a huge difference between evaluating players on your own roster, and selecting players in the draft.

And also, in Idzik's presser it was stated that he'll be in charge of the 53 man roster.

[unbanmadmike1]

Rex beer goggle wearer here. You can blame Rex for the draft picks and/or Mangini, but if that is the case, what the **** does Tannenbaum bring to the table? I can see deferring to the coach about specific players (Rex wants Coples, Tanny has Chandler Jones rated higher) but the GM has to stand up to the coach and say WE NEED OFFENSE at some ****ing point or he is a meaningless spectator. Either it's the GM's fault for being a sh*tty talent evaluator or the GM's fault for being a weakassed bitch.

You can make the same argument replacing Tennenbaum's name with Rex's. Thats why they were tied at the hip and should've both been fired.

[unbanmadmike1]

There's a huge difference between evaluating players on your own roster, and selecting players in the draft.

Maybe for the draft if you're going to say that the coach doesn't get chance to see every draft eligible player though that certainly isn't true for potential first round picks and Veteran Free Agents. Player evaluation is player evaluation.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Pretty much this. If you can't rely on your HC to pick players you're in big trouble. And thats before you get to his total ineptitude on offense.

Hasn't it been your contention all along that you don't want the head coach being anywhere near personnel decisions and for that to be left solely to the scouting department? Now you're saying a head coach should have to evaluate talent?

[unbanmadmike1]

Hasn't it been your contention all along that you don't want the head coach being anywhere near personnel decisions and for that to be left solely to the scouting department? Now you're saying a head coach should have to evaluate talent?

THIS head coach. Once it was clear that he wasn't going to be fired.

[#27TheDominator]

You can make the same argument replacing Tennenbaum's name with Rex's. Thats why they were tied at the hip and should've both been fired.

No. You can't. You can blame the coach for coaching and the GM for GMing. If the GM is delegating all the GMing to the coach why have him?

[slats]

Maybe for the draft if you're going to say that the coach doesn't get chance to see every draft eligible player though that certainly isn't true for potential first round picks and Veteran Free Agents. Player evaluation is player evaluation.

If Rex had a say in drafting Wilkerson and Coples, then he didn't do too badly.

As for FAs, I'd be wary of Rex's input, especially when it comes to offensive players who had success against his defense. He's an emotional and proud guy. Tannenbaum never realized that, even though it was painfully obvious from the outside. Idzik is supposed to have his own ideas, and have a strong will of his own. Necessary qualities when dealing with Rex, IMHO. They should listen to each other, but ultimately Idzik needs to make the decisions.

[slats]

Rex beer goggle wearer here. You can blame Rex for the draft picks and/or Mangini, but if that is the case, what the **** does Tannenbaum bring to the table? I can see deferring to the coach about specific players (Rex wants Coples, Tanny has Chandler Jones rated higher) but the GM has to stand up to the coach and say WE NEED OFFENSE at some ****ing point or he is a meaningless spectator. Either it's the GM's fault for being a sh*tty talent evaluator or the GM's fault for being a weakassed bitch.

No. You can't. You can blame the coach for coaching and the GM for GMing. If the GM is delegating all the GMing to the coach why have him?

Seems really clear to me. I don't understand why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

Looks like Woody finally grasped it, anyway.

[unbanmadmike1]

If Rex had a say in drafting Wilkerson and Coples, then he didn't do too badly.

As for FAs, I'd be wary of Rex's input, especially when it comes to offensive players who had success against his defense. He's an emotional and proud guy. Tannenbaum never realized that, even though it was painfully obvious from the outside. Idzik is supposed to have his own ideas, and have a strong will of his own. Necessary qualities when dealing with Rex, IMHO. They should listen to each other, but ultimately Idzik needs to make the decisions.

If he gets credit for those picks he gets blame for all the other awful ones and the lack of any good offensive players picked.

[slats]

If he gets credit for those picks he gets blame for all the other awful ones and the lack of any good offensive players picked.

What do you want me to say here? I think I've been pretty clear that I want the personnel department to handle personnel, and the coach to handle coaching.

I'm simply agreeing with you that the coach might have more valuable input in top picks than he might have in the rest of the draft. Sorry.

[BroadwayJoe12]

THIS head coach. Once it was clear that he wasn't going to be fired.

Fair enough, to each his own. I personally think Rex is a valuable talent evaluator when it comes to defensive lineman and most defensive players in general; I just don't think he should be allowed any type of unilateral or even advanced decision making when it comes to drafting or negotiating with players. He's too emotional. I, however, fully believe he should give Idzik advice on certain players if it's asked of him and at that point, it's up to Idzik to assess that advice and use it in conjunction with everything else he's heard.

[T0mShane]

Fair enough, to each his own. I personally think Rex is a valuable talent evaluator when it comes to defensive lineman and most defensive players in general; I just don't think he should be allowed any type of unilateral or even advanced decision making when it comes to drafting or negotiating with players. He's too emotional. I, however, fully believe he should give Idzik advice on certain players if it's asked of him and at that point, it's up to Idzik to assess that advice and use it in conjunction with everything else he's heard.

Even the great coaches will pork a draft because they look for specific players to do specific things, like block a specific DE in their division or slow down a TE that beat them up once. Belichick and Parcells come immediately to mind. It's the GM who had to assert the long range view and get players that can stay on the field for ten years. You give the coach a choice between two DEs you've scouted, or two RBs on your board maybe, but you can't let him dictate to you what players he wants if it contradicts the long-term plan.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Even the great coaches will pork a draft because they look for specific players to do specific things, like block a specific DE in their division or slow down a TE that beat them up once. Belichick and Parcells come immediately to mind. It's the GM who had to assert the long range view and get players that can stay on the field for ten years. You give the coach a choice between two DEs you've scouted, or two RBs on your board maybe, but you can't let him dictate to you what players he wants if it contradicts the long-term plan.

Agreed. I think Rex can be a valuable asset in evaluating certain talent if asked of him, but it's ultimately Idzik's job to compile and assess all information and make the best informed decision for the franchise. I also agree with the idea of presenting him with player a or b, but his opinion becomes immediately voided when it veers from "his throwing motion has a hitch" to "his players really like him." I say ask him his advice about certain defensive players, he's shown to be adept at this, but then use that in tandem with your additional information. I hope Idzik can be the adult in the room and choose what he feels is best for the franchise; if he ****s up, that happens, but at least it won't be for allowing the HC to bully him away from his original choice.

[SenorGato]

Oh man props to Tannenbaum for this:

"You'll see in the next six weeks how it (salary cap) will play out. There was a plan...there's a very detailed plan there." Said he wouldn't be surprised if Idzik followed it maybe with a few small tweaks and that he will gladly come back to the radio and talk about it later.

Pew pew!

[Scott Dierking]

Oh man props to Tannenbaum for this:

"You'll see in the next six weeks how it (salary cap) will play out. There was a plan...there's a very detailed plan there." Said he wouldn't be surprised if Idzik followed it maybe with a few small tweaks and that he will gladly come back to the radio and talk about it later.

Pew pew!

Getting the salary cap in check is not any problem, we all know the moves that will be made there in order to get in compliance. The problem is adding quality players back, and to still maintain the cap. That will take some real GMing there, and it can't be a shopping spree.

[SenorGato]

Getting the salary cap in check is not any problem, we all know the moves that will be made there in order to get in compliance. The problem is adding quality players back, and to still maintain the cap. That will take some real GMing there, and it can't be a shopping spree.

You don't have to spend wildly to land quality players and all shopping sprees are relative. The current GM comes from a franchise where it's a bunch of formerly misfit toys. Their QB isn't even 6' tall. Mike Williams gave them a solid season. Marshawn Lynch was bought when no one liked him. Red Bryant and Alan Branch were star college DTs from solid programs that had first round talent but motor questions. Zach Miller was a good TE, got hurt, and they were able to buy him low.

Jete should be well set up for New GM to show off some scouting acumen and pursue young FAs that are a little bit down on their luck right now but offer good upside. A larger shopping spree can happen later.