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I can certainly see why Tangini passed on Flacco


DonCorleone

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Boldin was one of the better WRs in football before Fitzgerald arrived.

Rice was one of the sturdiest and productive RBs in the college world.

Smith was a first round pick, was considered one of the top two WRs in his draft, AND one of the brightest (left as a junior with a degree already IIRC) players in the draft and certainly at WR.

Pitta was known and talented.

Sanchez was not considered raw out of USC as far as actions on the field, but he was raw in game experience.

The oldest player in that group is 29, and at least two of them are actually quite good (Holmes when he's on the field and the QB gets him the ball). Boldin costs money. Rice costs money. They are not cheap, secret bargain players that the amazing Ravens talent evaluation skills pulled out of a hat. None of the guys the Jets brought in were brought in for PR reasons. What are the PR benefits to any of those guys? A stoner who won a Super Bowl MVP, a CB with a bunch of kids with a bunch of women, and a former top 3 pick who didn't live up to expectations were the big PR grabs? So the Jets not only suck at evaluating football talent, they suck at evaluating PR talent...That must be it.

Smith was a second round draft pick. Ray Rice signed a new contract last summer, something like 40 Million over 5 years.

But here is the point. The Ravens drafted Ray Rice. The Jets got Shonne Greene. The Ravens drafted Joe Flacco. The Jets picked Sanchez.

The Ravens traded a ton of picks for Boldin. They picked up Jacoby Jones. The Jets signed Holmes. A MVP of a super bowl who got chased out of town.

Sanchez was considered Raw by many people. He barely played at USC compared to most other college kids. Mr USC himself, Pete Carrol said Sanchez wasn't ready for the NFL. It created a big uproar. At this point it seems obvios who was right.

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Yet many in the media appeared to know that Gholston was a higher risk because of his work ethics.

I was being tongue in cheek.

But IIRC Gholston was compared to the likes of Freeney and Jason Taylor before the draft and the 6th draft position was a consensus.

So while there is a lot to thrash Tanny for, not sure if this is the biggest reason you can thrash him for.

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Singling out Mangini doesn't make it especially clear that you're holding them both equally responsible, but that's certainly a reasonable position. I just think that even if you take 2006-07 out of the equation, the way we did things in the 2008 offseason seems to comport with Tannenbaum's M.O. sans Mangini a lot more than it does with Mangini's M.O. sans Tannenbaum based on their respective track records. Faneca, Pace, Favre, Gholston. That stuff just isn't Mangini's boring-ass style, which is why it was so roundly celebrated at the time. It's not in keeping with the Belichick style he emulates ad absurdum, or with the way he ran the Browns for those twelve minutes and change, or even with the silly rhetoric of message boards (pretty uncanny how uniformly Gholston was regarded as "not a Mangini guy" before April 2008 and "Mangini's guy" subsequent to January 2009).

Brees-Flacco-you're fired isn't much of a window for finding a quarterback, all things considered, but that's just another cloud in the perfect storm of sh*t that put this franchise into its present predicament, so I'm certainly not suggesting that anybody got a raw deal. There were plenty of stupid moves that seemed to be primarily Mangini-driven too.

I'm not singling him out per say. Many here say the Rex won with Mangini's team. That he's superior at building a roster and left Rex with this incredible roster. I disagree.

I was actually singling him out to compare him to the Rex/Tanny era. I dont have an inside knowledge on who weighed heavier in what decisions but clearly Tanny forced a couple of things on both. Typically, I view the HC and GM as a working relationship, so in general, I'd grade them collectively.

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Yet many in the media appeared to know that Gholston was a higher risk because of his work ethics.

It is about building an organization. Win or lose last night, the Ravens have been a super bowl contender the last 5 years. They were a super bowl contender before harbaugh and Flacco with Brian Billick. But anyway, The Ravens picked John Harbaugh as their head coach over Rex Ryan.

They've won a playoff game 5 years in a row. They've won the division. They've been to 3 AFC championship games. They've now won a super bowl. During that same time frame, the Jets signed Favre, fired a coach, hired Rex Ryan. Lucked into the playoffs and had a great run to the AFC Championship game. It looked like things were looking up. they made some moves and made it to another AFC Championship game. Except they barely showed up for most of that game. The Steelers won and the Jets really have been going downhill ever since.

So in that same 5 year time frame, the Ravens have never missed the playoffs and won a playoff game every year since. They look like a team who will probably make the playoffs again next season. The Jets have missed the playoffs 3 out of those same 5 years and look like a team closer to rebuilding than winning. It is about bringing the right players into your system. The problem the Jets have is they don't know what system they really have.

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Perhaps. Are you really going to say in hindsight now that no one thought Gholston would be good? Or we were the only team in the NFL that rated him a top 10 pick? You yourself backed the guy for years with absolutely no available metric or eye test suggesting he'd do anything well.

If you recall from that draft, there were X amount of "sure thing" picks, and we were the first selection after they were all gone. Gholston supposedly had great upside, but an awfully low floor as well.

Now, I agree with you that likely we could have found SOMEONE to trade down with, but how far down exactly? What do we get in return? Does that cause Baltimore or anyone else to try and jump up in front of our new position as they're worried we'd get Flacco?

And this all over looks the fact that if Flacco was drafted by the Jets he'd be the first coming of Mark Sanchez and Sanchez would be a two time SB winning QB for the Browns. Or something.

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Smith was a second round draft pick. Ray Rice signed a new contract last summer, something like 40 Million over 5 years.

But here is the point. The Ravens drafted Ray Rice. The Jets got Shonne Greene. The Ravens drafted Joe Flacco. The Jets picked Sanchez.

The Ravens traded a ton of picks for Boldin. They picked up Jacoby Jones. The Jets signed Holmes. A MVP of a super bowl who got chased out of town.

Sanchez was considered Raw by many people. He barely played at USC compared to most other college kids. Mr USC himself, Pete Carrol said Sanchez wasn't ready for the NFL. It created a big uproar. At this point it seems obvios who was right.

- True on Smith. Weird, he should have went higher even without hindsight. He was right behind Green and Jones on many of those boards we always hear about.

- If the Ravens signed a Super Bowl MVP after picking him up for a 5th this board would be calling that genius today. Since it's the Jets and the Jets didn't win a Super Bowl it's suuuuuuuch a dummy move.

- Ray Rice was drafted higher than Greene because he was a higher quality prospect. He's paid 8x more than Greene as well.

- Flacco, up until the lords of hindsight gained a new point of proof last night, was not as highly regarded a prospect as Sanchez, though Sanchez's flaws were pretty obvious.

- Sanchez was considered remarkably polished by most. What you're describing is his lack of experience, which is what I said his problem was.

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- Flacco, up until the lords of hindsight gained a new point of proof last night, was not as highly regarded a prospect as Sanchez, though Sanchez's flaws were pretty obvious.

- Sanchez was considered remarkably polished by most. What you're describing is his lack of experience, which is what I said his problem was.

still don't understand how Sanchez ended up that high of a pick. look back on his scouting reports, accuracy was supposedly his calling card.

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- True on Smith. Weird, he should have went higher even without hindsight. He was right behind Green and Jones on many of those boards we always hear about.

- If the Ravens signed a Super Bowl MVP after picking him up for a 5th this board would be calling that genius today. Since it's the Jets and the Jets didn't win a Super Bowl it's suuuuuuuch a dummy move.

- Ray Rice was drafted higher than Greene because he was a higher quality prospect. He's paid 8x more than Greene as well.

- Flacco, up until the lords of hindsight gained a new point of proof last night, was not as highly regarded a prospect as Sanchez, though Sanchez's flaws were pretty obvious.

- Sanchez was considered remarkably polished by most. What you're describing is his lack of experience, which is what I said his problem was.

I've never been one for that USC hype machine. The Pete Carroll era had tons of hype. And many of those college kids never lived up to expectations. Sanchez couldn't beat out John David Booty who never even played a down in the NFL. Matt Leinart just sucked and he was far more polished and regarded than Sanchez. Sanchez was drafted high because he went to USC. It wasn't like he won a heisman or came close to one like Palmer or Leinart, it wasn't even like Sanchez played on championship teams either. If Sanchez played QB at some bumblewoods college, nobody would have drafted him in the first round. He was more hype than actuality.

He really had one season as a starter in college, put up good numbers, won a rose bowl game, and that was it.

He was all hype over any substance. One good season for USC should have never made him a first round pick. Maybe he was smart in coming out early and not having to compete with 2010 draft class. His own coach warned him of coming out early. He didn't listen, took the money, and now is considered a joke of a QB.

Flacco was from a small school and raw. But if you put Flacco on USC, he'd probably have gone #1 in the draft. Just like Matt Barkley will probably go somewhere in the first round this year because "hey he's from USC."

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I've never been one for that USC hype machine. The Pete Carroll era had tons of hype. And many of those college kids never lived up to expectations. Sanchez couldn't beat out John David Booty who never even played a down in the NFL. Matt Leinart just sucked and he was far more polished and regarded than Sanchez. Sanchez was drafted high because he went to USC. It wasn't like he won a heisman or came close to one like Palmer or Leinart, it wasn't even like Sanchez played on championship teams either. If Sanchez played QB at some bumblewoods college, nobody would have drafted him in the first round. He was more hype than actuality.

He really had one season as a starter in college, put up good numbers, won a rose bowl game, and that was it.

He was all hype over any substance. One good season for USC should have never made him a first round pick. Maybe he was smart in coming out early and not having to compete with 2010 draft class. His own coach warned him of coming out early. He didn't listen, took the money, and now is considered a joke of a QB.

Flacco was from a small school and raw. But if you put Flacco on USC, he'd probably have gone #1 in the draft. Just like Matt Barkley will probably go somewhere in the first round this year because "hey he's from USC."

Sanchez was universally considered a first round QB prospect. He was not drafted because he went to USC, and even then he was seen as a far more physically gifted prospect than both Leinart and Booty, who did not have the physical tools (nor did he get any hype) as an NFL prospect.

Sure, if Sanchez played at Bumble**** U and Flacco didn't maybe their draft spots change. That was not the case so this hindsight phony reality alls eems pretty pointless.

On the bold: Yep, no big deal. That's practically nothing.

Your whole thing is hindsight and repeating what I said about his level experience when he left college.

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I'm sure they could have traded down a few spots had they wanted him. No one would have questioned them too much for taking Flacco, say, 12th.

Nobody was trading down with them, that's why they got stuck taking gholston in the 1st place. This isn't Madden.

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Sanchez was universally considered a first round QB prospect. He was not drafted because he went to USC, and even then he was seen as a far more physically gifted prospect than both Leinart and Booty, who did not have the physical tools (nor did he get any hype) as an NFL prospect.

Sure, if Sanchez played at Bumble**** U and Flacco didn't maybe their draft spots change. That was not the case so this hindsight phony reality alls eems pretty pointless.

On the bold: Yep, no big deal. That's practically nothing.

Your whole thing is hindsight and repeating what I said about his level experience when he left college.

When his own coach said he wasn't ready for the NFL, that probably should have said something. Probably more valuable than most of the 'experts' from the media. And how was he considered a better prospect than Leinart? Leinart was going to be the #1 pick in the draft but returned to college and then almost won a heisman and a championship game. And he dropped down to what, the 10th pick. I never thought much of Leinart as a QB, but saying he wasn't regarded is a bit of a stretch. Sanchez had one season. Any expert saying he was a lock to be anything probably should have listened to Carroll.

It's not about hindsight it was more about hope. People overlooked the fact that Sanchez sucked his rookie season. The Jets were a defense first team, a rushing team, and needed a QB who didn't turn the ball over. But he threw 20 Interceptions. That's a terrible terrible ratio. When the QBs job is really to hand the ball off and not turn the ball over, and you throw 20 Picks, that's a horrible season. His second year was a little better. He had 17 TDs and 13 INTs. It wasn't like he was some stud QB, but it was an improvement. He played great against the Patriots in the playoffs.

And then he fell apart. As did the Jets. When you pick a franchise QB at #5, the guy should be leading the team by year #4. Instead it's always more excuses on why Sanchez can't do this or that. The truth is, the guys college coach said he wasn't ready and many people ridiculed Carroll for that. Sour grapes. Maybe the 'experts' should have listened.

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I wouldn't even say Flacco has proven to be elite at this point. He just went into beast mode during the playoffs. Sure they were the most important games of his season, but it was just 4 games. That's just 1/4 of a season. 1/5 of a season if you include the playoffs. Let's see him do it more consistently during the regular season before he joins the tier of the ones who have.

That said, he moved up from the JAG tier at the kid's table & is eating with the grown ups now.

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You guys are missing the forest for the trees. The A-1 difference between how the Ravens and Jets are run is best explained this way: Ozzie Newsome hired John Harbaugh and the Jets hired Rex Ryan, even though Rex was right under Ozzie's nose for years. You get a better coach, all of a sudden your players look better.

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I've never been one for that USC hype machine. The Pete Carroll era had tons of hype. And many of those college kids never lived up to expectations. Sanchez couldn't beat out John David Booty who never even played a down in the NFL. Matt Leinart just sucked and he was far more polished and regarded than Sanchez. Sanchez was drafted high because he went to USC. It wasn't like he won a heisman or came close to one like Palmer or Leinart, it wasn't even like Sanchez played on championship teams either. If Sanchez played QB at some bumblewoods college, nobody would have drafted him in the first round. He was more hype than actuality.

He really had one season as a starter in college, put up good numbers, won a rose bowl game, and that was it.

He was all hype over any substance. One good season for USC should have never made him a first round pick. Maybe he was smart in coming out early and not having to compete with 2010 draft class. His own coach warned him of coming out early. He didn't listen, took the money, and now is considered a joke of a QB.

Flacco was from a small school and raw. But if you put Flacco on USC, he'd probably have gone #1 in the draft. Just like Matt Barkley will probably go somewhere in the first round this year because "hey he's from USC."

While I agree with pretty much everything you say here, Sanchez had zero business starting in 09, zero.

I don't even think most NFL ready rookie QBs should be starting, let alone Sanchez who was not NFL ready.

2010 should have been his first season starting, and 11 the second year, with this past year being the first year with real expectations from him.

It may not have mattered, but Rex absolutely destroyed any chance Sanchez ever had at being even a serviceable NFL QB.

It will be viewed as a case study on how not to draft and develop a QB, for years to come

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Magini's roster, something something, awesome at evalutaing talent, something something, Rex ran it into the ground.

Players aquired during Manigini's tenure:

D'Brick

Mangold

E. Smith

B. Smith

Leon Washington

Drew Coleman

Thomas Jones

Darrelle Revis

David Harris

Chansi Stuckey

Alan Faneca

Calvin Pace

Damien Woody

Tony Richardson

Kris Jenkins

Brett Favre

Dwight Lowery

Dustin Keller

So. Yeah. Vernon Gholston, Mangini overrated blah, blah, blah...

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Players aquired during Manigini's tenure:

D'Brick

Mangold

E. Smith

B. Smith

Leon Washington

Drew Coleman

Thomas Jones

Darrelle Revis

David Harris

Chansi Stuckey

Alan Faneca

Calvin Pace

Damien Woody

Tony Richardson

Kris Jenkins

Brett Favre

Dwight Lowery

Dustin Keller

So. Yeah. Vernon Gholston, Mangini overrated blah, blah, blah...

To anticipate JiF's response:

LULZ ERIC SMITH SUCKSSSS

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Players aquired during Manigini's tenure:

D'Brick

Mangold

E. Smith

B. Smith

Leon Washington

Drew Coleman

Thomas Jones

Darrelle Revis

David Harris

Chansi Stuckey

Alan Faneca

Calvin Pace

Damien Woody

Tony Richardson

Kris Jenkins

Brett Favre

Dwight Lowery

Dustin Keller

So. Yeah. Vernon Gholston, Mangini overrated blah, blah, blah...

Is this an argument for or against Mangini?

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