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I can certainly see why Tangini passed on Flacco


DonCorleone

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Look at what they have done in Baltimore though. Flacco isn't an all world QB but they have tailored their skill players around what he does well, do you really think the Jets would've done that? They have Torry Smith, Ray Rice, Jacoby Jones and Dennis Pitta, we have Holmes, an old Braylon, Shonn Greene and Chaz Schillins.

I mean, if our QB did ANYTHING well, maybe we could do that...

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so who are people trading up for in that scenario, Gholston?

Perhaps. Are you really going to say in hindsight now that no one thought Gholston would be good? Or we were the only team in the NFL that rated him a top 10 pick? You yourself backed the guy for years with absolutely no available metric or eye test suggesting he'd do anything well.

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Mangini was a great at drafting and evaluating talent, so I've been told.

Is there any reason why you're putting this on Mangini? I tend to put 2006/07 primarily on him and 2008 primarily on Tannenbaum. That seemed to have been everybody else's take at the time, when we finally started splashing around with big ticket free agents and the like, but of course things didn't work out, Mangini left and Tannenbaum didn't, and blame had to be reapportioned accordingly.

This isn't to absolve Mangini on the quarterback front. The only thing worse than a new head coach who hitches his wagon to the wrong quarterback is the one who waffles around and refuses to yoke up at all. But given what we can piece together about the different decision-making dynamics we've seen over the past few years, I find it kind of difficult to assume that Mangini would have been at liberty to go all in on a (non-Matt Ryan) rookie that year.

Everything always comes back to organizational retardation. Nobody's in charge, and you're never going to find the quarterback if you can't even find the guy who can find the quarterback.

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Is there any reason why you're putting this on Mangini? I tend to put 2006/07 primarily on him and 2008 primarily on Tannenbaum. That seemed to have been everybody else's take at the time, when we finally started splashing around with big ticket free agents and the like, but of course things didn't work out, Mangini left and Tannenbaum didn't, and blame had to be reapportioned accordingly.

This isn't to absolve Mangini on the quarterback front. The only thing worse than a new head coach who hitches his wagon to the wrong quarterback is the one who waffles around and refuses to yoke up at all. But given what we can piece together about the different decision-making dynamics we've seen over the past few years, I find it kind of difficult to assume that Mangini would have been at liberty to go all in on a (non-Matt Ryan) rookie that year.

Everything always comes back to organizational retardation. Nobody's in charge, and you're never going to find the quarterback if you can't even find the guy who can find the quarterback.

The thread is about "Tangini", so I'm responding as if we are holding them both equally responsible for the talent they acquired during their tenure together. I dont have any inside information on who's more responsible for the mishaps or hits. Mangini was here for one of the biggest bust in the teams history and one of the biggest homeruns. He gets credit for both.

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We passed on Flacco because he is tall and has a great arm. The scouting department at the Jets only like short weak armed QBs, The scary part is all those bums in the drafting department still have their jobs somehow even after a GM change. I don't feel that great about them finding another QB since im sure they will pick some shorty again with a terrible arm.

The Jets could have had Ray Rice too instead the Bean counter trades up for Keller who is probably tripping over his own feet somewhere right now.

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Perhaps. Are you really going to say in hindsight now that no one thought Gholston would be good? Or we were the only team in the NFL that rated him a top 10 pick? You yourself backed the guy for years with absolutely no available metric or eye test suggesting he'd do anything well.

What I'm saying is the statement that "im sure they could easily trade down for Flacco" is hugely revisionist. If we wanted the Jets to stick at 6 and take Flacco that's one thing.

But saying they could trade down and get him is wishful thinking. It's letting the Jets have their cake and eat it.

In general we all overrate the ease of teams to trade down. There has to be someone worth trading up for in these scenarios.

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What I'm saying is the statement that "im sure they could easily trade down for Flacco" is hugely revisionist. If we wanted the Jets to stick at 6 and take Flacco that's one thing.

But saying they could trade down and get him is wishful thinking. It's letting the Jets have their cake and eat it.

In general we all overrate the ease of teams to trade down. There has to be someone worth trading up for in these scenarios.

Ummmmmm, the Jags traded almost half their draft (Shaq Harris was the GM, right hand man to Ozzie Newsome in Balt. before becoming the Jags GM) from 18 to 8 for Derrick Harvey. The Ravens selected Joe Flacco with 18th overall pick.

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Ummmmmm, the Jags traded almost half their draft (Shaq Harris was the GM, right hand man to Ozzie Newsome in Balt. before becoming the Jags GM) from 18 to 8 for Derrick Harvey. The Ravens selected Joe Flacco with 18th overall pick.

that's all great but it's also likely the Jets waited 10 minutes and no one called. this 'easy trade down' scenario isn't always so easy that's the point im trying to make.

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I think the Ravens, specifically Caldwell, realized that Flacco wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed and compensated by swapping out the short pass for the bomb, minimizing Flacco's chances of throwing passes directly into the arms of linebackers. The Jets could have done the same thing with Hill and Schilens, but the Jets coaching staff is a box of rocks.

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I think the Ravens, specifically Caldwell, realized that Flacco wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed and compensated by swapping out the short pass for the bomb, minimizing Flacco's chances of throwing passes directly into the arms of linebackers. The Jets could have done the same thing with Hill and Schilens, but the Jets coaching staff is a box of rocks.

Hill and Schilens are a raw rookie a a JAG. Jones and Smith are some of the fastest guys in the NFL.
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that's all great but it's also likely the Jets waited 10 minutes and no one called. this 'easy trade down' scenario isn't always so easy that's the point im trying to make.

You said it was "wishful thinking". But it actually happened. Thats all I was pointing out.

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You said it was "wishful thinking". But it actually happened. Thats all I was pointing out.

the point of this thread that the jets passed on a guy who went 12 slots later seems a little misguided. If Flacco went 8 fair enough. ps - someone traded up for Harvey. No one traded up for Gholston.

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I'm responding as if we are holding them both equally responsible

Singling out Mangini doesn't make it especially clear that you're holding them both equally responsible, but that's certainly a reasonable position. I just think that even if you take 2006-07 out of the equation, the way we did things in the 2008 offseason seems to comport with Tannenbaum's M.O. sans Mangini a lot more than it does with Mangini's M.O. sans Tannenbaum based on their respective track records. Faneca, Pace, Favre, Gholston. That stuff just isn't Mangini's boring-ass style, which is why it was so roundly celebrated at the time. It's not in keeping with the Belichick style he emulates ad absurdum, or with the way he ran the Browns for those twelve minutes and change, or even with the silly rhetoric of message boards (pretty uncanny how uniformly Gholston was regarded as "not a Mangini guy" before April 2008 and "Mangini's guy" subsequent to January 2009).

Brees-Flacco-you're fired isn't much of a window for finding a quarterback, all things considered, but that's just another cloud in the perfect storm of sh*t that put this franchise into its present predicament, so I'm certainly not suggesting that anybody got a raw deal. There were plenty of stupid moves that seemed to be primarily Mangini-driven too.

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Look at what they have done in Baltimore though. Flacco isn't an all world QB but they have tailored their skill players around what he does well, do you really think the Jets would've done that? They have Torry Smith, Ray Rice, Jacoby Jones and Dennis Pitta, we have Holmes, an old Braylon, Shonn Greene and Chaz Schillins.

This is the problem. Ray Rice wasn't an all world player. He didn't even play much his rookie year. Jacoby Jones got chased out of Houston. Dennis Pitta? Who has really ever heard of the guy. He had like 1 catch in 2011. And Torry Smith was a late 2nd round pick know for being a deep ball player over some great stud WR.

It wasn't like the Ravens went out and drafted all these stud first rounders and signed a bunch of top free agents. The Raven organization seems to know how to build a winning team. They know how to build a team. It wasn't just signing a bunch of free agents and hoping they would fit.

Now that the Ravens won a SB and Flacco looks one of the top QBs in the NFL, people say how great these other players are. But truth be told, Boldwin was the second fiddle to Fitzgerald. Ray Rice was second fiddle to another RB. Jones was chased out of Houston. Pitta had 1 reception in 2011. Sometimes a QB makes players look good. Sometimes a team and organization just know how to pick players who make you win. The Jets didn't do any of that. The Jets picked Shonn Greene. They picked Mark Sanchez. They signed a bunch of free agents at top dollar. They were a team going for a homerun and hit a single instead.

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Anquan Boldin set receiving records as a rookie in Arizona and has always been a good receiver. Rice was undervalued in the draft because of the school he went to. I thought he was the best back in that draft. Pitta I think got hurt his rookie season but was one of the top tight ends in that draft.

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The moral of the Joe Flacco story is that it's much better to have a QB with elite skills and coach him up/surround him with great talent than trying to coach up a game manager with average skills into a winning QB. DO YOU HEAR THAT PEOPLE WHO WANT THE JETS TO TRADE FOR ALEX SMITH!?!?!?!?!

YEP. I hope they avoid Smith like the plague.

Obviously you need more than tools for people who might take this too literally. Guy needs a good head on his shoulders too.

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This is the problem. Ray Rice wasn't an all world player. He didn't even play much his rookie year. Jacoby Jones got chased out of Houston. Dennis Pitta? Who has really ever heard of the guy. He had like 1 catch in 2011. And Torry Smith was a late 2nd round pick know for being a deep ball player over some great stud WR.

It wasn't like the Ravens went out and drafted all these stud first rounders and signed a bunch of top free agents. The Raven organization seems to know how to build a winning team. They know how to build a team. It wasn't just signing a bunch of free agents and hoping they would fit.

Now that the Ravens won a SB and Flacco looks one of the top QBs in the NFL, people say how great these other players are. But truth be told, Boldwin was the second fiddle to Fitzgerald. Ray Rice was second fiddle to another RB. Jones was chased out of Houston. Pitta had 1 reception in 2011. Sometimes a QB makes players look good. Sometimes a team and organization just know how to pick players who make you win. The Jets didn't do any of that. The Jets picked Shonn Greene. They picked Mark Sanchez. They signed a bunch of free agents at top dollar. They were a team going for a homerun and hit a single instead.

You're really underrating almost all those guys. They are very good players. Better than anyone the jets have brought in for those spots, and at less cost to acquire...
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Anquan Boldin set receiving records as a rookie in Arizona and has always been a good receiver. Rice was undervalued in the draft because of the school he went to. I thought he was the best back in that draft. Pitta I think got hurt his rookie season but was one of the top tight ends in that draft.

Boldin was thought to be good because he played on the other side of Fitzgerald. And Boldin wasn't lighting things up when he went to the Ravens. He's a big possession type of receiver. He's not a guy who is going to get you Randy Moss type of home runs. And that's the point about Ray Rice. The Ravens took a chance on him. Hell they took another chance on that rookie from Temple. They seem to know how to evaluate talent regardless of where they went to school. The Jets like to sign the Braylon Edwards, Santonio Holmes, Cromarties of the world. Players who are going to cost a hell of a lot of money and only give you a short window to win. It's almost like the Jets like to pick somebody who will give them better PR over somebody who might be good.

Hell even look at Sanchez vs Flacco. Flacco was raw, small school. Sanchez was raw but USC. The Jets seem to be an organization that goes for the PR moves sometimes.

I mean the Ravens won a super bowl with a QB from Delaware and a RB from Rutgers. You start to realize how much better other organizations are when it comes to coaching, the Front office, the ownership.

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the point of this thread that the jets passed on a guy who went 12 slots later seems a little misguided. If Flacco went 8 fair enough. ps - someone traded up for Harvey. No one traded up for Gholston.

Huh? You were talking about trading down...never mind.

No they really don't.

They dont what? Suck or run faster? Both had faster 40 times if I'm not mistaken which is what I'm referring to.

Field speed? Who knows, we havent seen either run with the ball for more than 5 yards. lol

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Huh? You were talking about trading down...never mind.

They dont what? Suck or run faster? Both had faster 40 times if I'm not mistaken which is what I'm referring to.

Field speed? Who knows, we havent seen either run with the ball for more than 5 yards. lol

Hill is probably faster but Schillins isn't. But Smith was raw last year and Hill is even more raw than he was....
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Boldin was one of the better WRs in football before Fitzgerald arrived.

Rice was one of the sturdiest and productive RBs in the college world.

Smith was a first round pick, was considered one of the top two WRs in his draft, AND one of the brightest (left as a junior with a degree already IIRC) players in the draft and certainly at WR.

Pitta was known and talented.

Sanchez was not considered raw out of USC as far as actions on the field, but he was raw in game experience.

The Jets like to sign the Braylon Edwards, Santonio Holmes, Cromarties of the world. Players who are going to cost a hell of a lot of money and only give you a short window to win. It's almost like the Jets like to pick somebody who will give them better PR over somebody who might be good.

The oldest player in that group is 29, and at least two of them are actually quite good (Holmes when he's on the field and the QB gets him the ball). Boldin costs money. Rice costs money. They are not cheap, secret bargain players that the amazing Ravens talent evaluation skills pulled out of a hat. None of the guys the Jets brought in were brought in for PR reasons. What are the PR benefits to any of those guys? A stoner who won a Super Bowl MVP, a CB with a bunch of kids with a bunch of women, and a former top 3 pick who didn't live up to expectations were the big PR grabs? So the Jets not only suck at evaluating football talent, they suck at evaluating PR talent...That must be it.

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Tidbit on Anquan Boldin just from his Wiki page:

As a rookie Boldin set an NFL record for most receiving yards by a rookie in his first game (217), tied Billy Sims for most yards from scrimmage by a rookie in his first game (217), and holds the NFL record for most receptions in the first 26 games of an NFL career (157). He is also the fastest to record 300 career receptions (47 games) and finished the season with 101 catches, 1,377 receiving yards, and eight scores. Boldin was the only rookie selected to the 2004 Pro Bowl.

The vast majority of football fans knew exactly who Boldin was before Fitzgerald got there a year after he did. They were the best receiver duo in the league because both were beasts.

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