sirlancemehlot Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Warmack and Cooper will both go in rd 1. The idea that interior lineman aren't valued as high as other positions is old thinking. There were 2 guards taken in the first Rd last year in DeCastro and Zeitler. There have been guards taken in the first round in 6 of the last 8 drafts. And that's not even counting Centers. Cooper blocked for a team that averaged 193.8 rushing yards per game lat season. he's a big reason Giovani Benard averaged over 120 a game. You plug that guy in and your rushing game automatically gets a big boost. Same goes for Warmack. Add to that the fact that a good lineman can give you a dozen years of service, and drafting a guard starts to sound like a pretty good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Warmack and Cooper will both go in rd 1. The idea that interior lineman aren't valued as high as other positions is old thinking. There were 2 guards taken in the first Rd last year in DeCastro and Zeitler. There have been guards taken in the first round in 6 of the last 8 drafts. And that's not even counting Centers. Cooper blocked for a team that averaged 193.8 rushing yards per game lat season. he's a big reason Giovani Benard averaged over 120 a game. You plug that guy in and your rushing game automatically gets a big boost. Same goes for Warmack. Add to that the fact that a good lineman can give you a dozen years of service, and drafting a guard starts to sound like a pretty good idea. It's not old thinking, it's current thinking. You're right, there have been guards taken in the first round in 8 of the last 12 drafts. However, there have only been 9 guards taken in the first round of those 12 drafts, with the highest spot being Iupati and Steve Hutchinson (perhaps the best guard of the last decade) both at 17th overall and the average draft slot being 25. This isn't counting the fact that there wasn't a single OG selected in back to back years from 2003 & 2004 as well as 2008 & 2009; for a spot that is so valued, it seems to be ignored quite a bit. No one is saying that interior lineman aren't valued, but in over a decade of drafting there hasn't been a single player drafted above 17th overall and only 9 out of the 380 or so picks, is pretty telling. Compare that to the amount of CBs, LBs and DEs drafted and you can see how it's not even on the same level as these more skilled positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share Posted February 8, 2013 Boom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 All the Werner knocks are the same ones leveled against Kerrigan. You're all racists. Yeah but both guys would play foozball for a handshake and a sandwich in the end. Not like that lazy Coples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Yeah but both guys would play foozball for a handshake and a sandwich in the end. Not like that lazy Coples. Donte Paige Moss would make Werner a thugturd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 It's not old thinking, it's current thinking. You're right, there have been guards taken in the first round in 8 of the last 12 drafts. However, there have only been 9 guards taken in the first round of those 12 drafts, with the highest spot being Iupati and Steve Hutchinson (perhaps the best guard of the last decade) both at 17th overall and the average draft slot being 25. This isn't counting the fact that there wasn't a single OG selected in back to back years from 2003 & 2004 as well as 2008 & 2009; for a spot that is so valued, it seems to be ignored quite a bit. No one is saying that interior lineman aren't valued, but in over a decade of drafting there hasn't been a single player drafted above 17th overall and only 9 out of the 380 or so picks, is pretty telling. Compare that to the amount of CBs, LBs and DEs drafted and you can see how it's not even on the same level as these more skilled positions. If you're going back 12 years, you're makig my point about "old thinking". This year two guards are likey to be taken before a single QB is drafted. Does that mean OG is more important than QB? Of course not. Is OG more important than CBs, LBs, or DEs? No, unless you need a guard more than you need CBs, LBs, or DEs. What you've done above is change the argument. Certainly other positions are are more highly valued. QB is the most highly valued position to any team, yet you'll find other poitions dafted more frequently. The fact is, drafting a guard in the first round is not unheard of and is, in fact, a (slowly) growing trend in recent years. Interior lineman bust less frequently than other positions, and last longer. Guys like Logan Mankins can write their own check (even after butting heads with Bill Bellicheck) because of their value to the team. So when a rare talent arises, even at G, they are valued and worth that value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 If you're going back 12 years, you're makig my point about "old thinking". This year two guards are likey to be taken before a single QB is drafted. Does that mean OG is more important than QB? Of course not. Is OG more important than CBs, LBs, or DEs? No, unless you need a guard more than you need CBs, LBs, or DEs. What you've done above is change the argument. Certainly other positions are are more highly valued. QB is the most highly valued position to any team, yet you'll find other poitions dafted more frequently. The fact is, drafting a guard in the first round is not unheard of and is, in fact, a (slowly) growing trend in recent years. Interior lineman bust less frequently than other positions, and last longer. Guys like Logan Mankins can write their own check (even after butting heads with Bill Bellicheck) because of their value to the team. So when a rare talent arises, even at G, they are valued and worth that value. You cannot call it a growing trend until multiple guards are selected in the first round for multiple years in a row. The fact that DeCastro was considering the best guard prospect in a decade and slipped all the way to 24, tells you just how valuable these guys are considered. And no, guard in the first round is not unheard of, but when the average draft position is 25, drafting one in the top 10 certainly is. Yes, these guards like Mankins and Carl Nicks, who is the best guard in the league, can write their own check, but their value over the league average is not big enough to warrant the payday. And with all the money tied up in LT and C on our line, it's silly to want to pay another player that much money, when the return is so minimal compared to other positions. Now, if we already had a QB, edge-rusher and dynamic skill players, then yes, we should consider Warmack, but since we don't and there is a plethora of high-end talent for edge-rusher, that's the selection you make with the 9th overall pick. There just isn't a high enough difference between Warmack and guys like Bailey/Warford/Jones to justify picking him 9th overall instead of one of these other guys 41st overall. Agree to disagree, but I just 100% do not believe the returns are worth selecting an OG that high in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Yeah but both guys would play foozball for a handshake and a sandwich in the end. Not like that lazy Coples. The thing that annoys me is that Werner gets the internet buzz of being a high motor guy because of his skin color, but from anyone who's watched this kid play, knows his pros are his insane first step and his cons are that he's been known to take plays off and give up on the back end when the play goes the other way. The opposite is said about Mingo, who has the best motor out of any of the guys in this DE/OLB conversation; that dude has made more plays on the back-end that TomShane at a culture club concert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 You cannot call it a growing trend until multiple guards are selected in the first round for multiple years in a row. The fact that DeCastro was considering the best guard prospect in a decade and slipped all the way to 24, tells you just how valuable these guys are considered. And no, guard in the first round is not unheard of, but when the average draft position is 25, drafting one in the top 10 certainly is. Yes, these guards like Mankins and Carl Nicks, who is the best guard in the league, can write their own check, but their value over the league average is not big enough to warrant the payday. And with all the money tied up in LT and C on our line, it's silly to want to pay another player that much money, when the return is so minimal compared to other positions. Now, if we already had a QB, edge-rusher and dynamic skill players, then yes, we should consider Warmack, but since we don't and there is a plethora of high-end talent for edge-rusher, that's the selection you make with the 9th overall pick. There just isn't a high enough difference between Warmack and guys like Bailey/Warford/Jones to justify picking him 9th overall instead of one of these other guys 41st overall. Agree to disagree, but I just 100% do not believe the returns are worth selecting an OG that high in the draft. fair enough. We'll see how it shakes out in April I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 The thing that annoys me is that Werner gets the internet buzz of being a high motor guy because of his skin color, but from anyone who's watched this kid play, knows his pros are his insane first step and his cons are that he's been known to take plays off and give up on the back end when the play goes the other way. The opposite is said about Mingo, who has the best motor out of any of the guys in this DE/OLB conversation; that dude has made more plays on the back-end that TomShane at a culture club concert. Mingo has motor issues as does Werner. Most draftniks know Werner is the only white boy ever to have his effort questioned but Mingo is this awesome athlete who doesn't produce as well as Sam Montgomery. It's the age old question after he runs that sick 4.45 time why didn't he dominate? 13 sacks in 3 years is pretty good but it's not great. Jarvis had 26 playing against the same competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Mingo has motor issues as does Werner. Most draftniks know Werner is the only white boy ever to have his effort questioned but Mingo is this awesome athlete who doesn't produce as well as Sam Montgomery. It's the age old question after he runs that sick 4.45 time why didn't he dominate? 13 sacks in 3 years is pretty good but it's not great. Jarvis had 26 playing against the same competition. I've watched just about every LSU game over the last decade and can pretty safely say that Mingo has as high a motor as any guy to come out of LSU in a while. Watch any reel of LSU footage and you'll see him making plays on the backend more than any of the other prospects, save for maybe Jones, who's my favorite out of the bunch anyways. That's not to say he doesn't have his lapses, as every single player does, I just think they're far less than the vast majority. He also does not shy away from contact and that's easily seen in all his videos. As for his production, it's hard to say. Chavis asked him to do a lot of different things this year instead of just pinning his ears back and getting after the QB; I would imagine if you could tally QB hurries or plays he disrupted, he'd be up there with the rest of them. I think we both like Mingo, so there's no real argument, I would not at all be upset with him if he falls to us. Edit: it is pretty funny how Werner gets the label as having a high motor, when that's one of his bigger knocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Yeah Im not worried about Mingo's motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius del Sol Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Edit: it is pretty funny how Werner gets the label as having a high motor, when that's one of his bigger knocks. I like Mingo but Werner is better. We're not getting either of them. High motor is just words. Werner knocks down an awful lot of passes for a guy who's somehow lacking in effort or concentration. He looks a lot more active now that he's down to 255. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I like Mingo but Werner is better. We're not getting either of them. High motor is just words. Werner knocks down an awful lot of passes for a guy who's somehow lacking in effort or concentration. He looks a lot more active now that he's down to 255. Both Mingo and Werner have absolutely insane first steps, even non-scouts can just see how these guys explode off the snap, it's surreal. They both will probably be gone, but there's 8 teams drafting in front of us, 7 if you consider KC a lock to take joeckel, and you'd have to think one of Jones, Mingo, Moore, Werner, Star, Millner will be there; if it's Millner or Star, I would bet good money we could trade down from there, but we'll see. I know they say no QBs in the first, but I just find it hard to believe Buffalo and Arizona will pass on them given their current situation. We'll see though, but I've been holding out hope we could land Mingo for a couple years now. **We also can't rule out Ansah as a possibility as well, especially with all the Aldon Smith and JPP comparisons. The kid is inexperienced, but he has solid instincts from all reports, so he and Dion Jordan are definitely options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damaged89 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Both Mingo and Werner have absolutely insane first steps, even non-scouts can just see how these guys explode off the snap, it's surreal. They both will probably be gone, but there's 8 teams drafting in front of us, 7 if you consider KC a lock to take joeckel, and you'd have to think one of Jones, Mingo, Moore, Werner, Star, Millner will be there; if it's Millner or Star, I would bet good money we could trade down from there, but we'll see. I know they say no QBs in the first, but I just find it hard to believe Buffalo and Arizona will pass on them given their current situation. We'll see though, but I've been holding out hope we could land Mingo for a couple years now. **We also can't rule out Ansah as a possibility as well, especially with all the Aldon Smith and JPP comparisons. The kid is inexperienced, but he has solid instincts from all reports, so he and Dion Jordan are definitely options. I wouldn't be upset at all if we could manage to trade down and still get Ansah or Jordan. I'm not sure if there's a logical partner, but if someone like Jones or Star falls or someone gets a hard on for a QB I suppose it's possible to make that move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 I wouldn't be upset at all if we could manage to trade down and still get Ansah or Jordan. I'm not sure if there's a logical partner, but if someone like Jones or Star falls or someone gets a hard on for a QB I suppose it's possible to make that move. Ziggy Ansah or Dion Jordan would not be a bad consolation prize if it means we get an additional pick for trading down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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