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Greenseed4
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He's not a stand up 34 LB. He'd play end here. And we have ends.

His strengths are his insane first step, which is second to only Keke mingo's in this draft and his ability to bend around the edge, combined with the fact he weighs 255 lbs and doesn't have extremely long arms. What about that screams to you 34 DE?? There is literally nothing about him that is indicative of playing the 5-tech in this defense.

That having been said, unless Mingo runs a 4.4 flat and there's a run of QBs ahead of us, there's no way he falls.

Edited by BroadwayJoe12
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His strengths are his insane first step, which is second to only Keke mingo's in this draft and his ability to bend around the edge, combined with the fact he weighs 255 lbs and doesn't have extremely long arms. What about that screams to you 34 DE?? There is literally nothing about him that is indicative of playing the 5-tech in this defense.

That having been said, unless Mingo runs a 4.4 flat and there's a run of QBs ahead of us, there's no way he falls.

My point was that he's played 43 end in college and that doesn't fit here.
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Warmack is going to be the best player available at 9 if he's still there. And by far the surest thing.

Problem with drafting warmack is he isn't sexy enough for a fan base that's been treated to years of combine watching and 40 times and those awesome highlight reels with obscure gangster rap and speed metal soundtracks. Jets fans want sexy, dammit! Of course the best draft we've had in the last ten years featured two lineman in the FIRST round, but why bring that up.

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Problem with drafting warmack is he isn't sexy enough for a fan base that's been treated to years of combine watching and 40 times and those awesome highlight reels with obscure gangster rap and speed metal soundtracks. Jets fans want sexy, dammit! Of course the best draft we've had in the last ten years featured two lineman in the FIRST round, but why bring that up.

If they are making picks because they are "sexy" and not for a long term winning program they will never win sh*t anyway.
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Problem with drafting warmack is he isn't sexy enough for a fan base that's been treated to years of combine watching and 40 times and those awesome highlight reels with obscure gangster rap and speed metal soundtracks. Jets fans want sexy, dammit! Of course the best draft we've had in the last ten years featured two lineman in the FIRST round, but why bring that up.

The problem with drafting Warmack in the top ten is that you don't draft interior lineman in the top ten, when the difference between the best offensive guard and your average starting guard is miniscule compared to the difference between a top OLB and the average OLB. I love warmack, he's a stud, so is cooper, but there's a reason historicall and recently interior lineman do not get drafted top ten overall; it's because it's not a good value of return on your pick. If we trade down? sure, you can consider it. But for a league that is predicated on QB play, if you can't get the QB in this draft, you get the guy who can affect him on every down in Moore/Jones/Mingo/Werner.

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If the Jets draft another high bust probability OLB you know Rex is calling the shots. they need OFFENSE.

You don't just draft offense to draft offense, that's beyond reactionary; that's how you end up over-drafting players. You always have an agenda and if a certain move doesn't fit in it, it becomes Rex's plot to destroy the team. Werner is one of the most highly touted prospects on everyone's board, yet because we need offense, it equals Rex calling the shots? Get out of here. If we draft werner, it's because he miraculously slipped and he's the top player on our board.

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You don't just draft offense to draft offense, that's beyond reactionary; that's how you end up over-drafting players. You always have an agenda and if a certain move doesn't fit in it, it becomes Rex's plot to destroy the team. Werner is one of the most highly touted prospects on everyone's board, yet because we need offense, it equals Rex calling the shots? Get out of here. If we draft werner, it's because he miraculously slipped and he's the top player on our board.

Everything I've ever read about Werner says he isn't a 34 OLB and couldn't play standing up. But I guess thats all wrong and you're right...
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What have you read?

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013bwerner.php

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=3337

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/30221/bjoern-werner

If you don't have insider:

Best fit appears to be as a LDE for a 43 scheme at the next level. Can line up as a 34 OLB but may have some restrictions if asked to consistently drop in coverage and play in space. If able to continue to add bulk to frame he has the length and natural strength to line up as a five technique for a 34 front.
Edited by unbanmadmike1
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Walter starts off wrong as he's not 273. Werner 2011 and Werner 2012 were two different athletes IMO, one almost twenty pounds heavier than the other.

realistically though ...and love werner btw, but realistically guys straight out of college rarely get smaller when they move on to the pro game. at 22 yrs old, they havet come close to maxing out teir mass yet. by 27,28 they tend to be thicker and more solid. just food for thought.

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Walter starts off wrong as he's not 273. Werner 2011 and Werner 2012 were two different athletes IMO, one almost twenty pounds heavier than the other.

Drafting a guy and hoping he can change positions right out of the gate before he plays a game is dumb when there are other options who can just plug and be an impact player like Warmack. Edited by unbanmadmike1
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Drafting a guy and hoping he can change positions right out of the gate before he plays a game is dumb when there are other options who can just plug and be an impact player like Warmack.

Yet it worked for:

DeMarcus Ware

Shawn Merriman though Marylas did use him at LB

JAbe (college LB to DE)

Shaun Philips

Brian Orakpo

Ryan Kerrigan

Anthony Spencer

etc

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Everything I've ever read about Werner says he isn't a 34 OLB and couldn't play standing up. But I guess thats all wrong and you're right...

It doesn't say in any of those that he can't play standing up, it's just that they think it'd be a transition, but those same people said the exact same thing about Aldon Smith and he turned our pretty well. There's also the notion that we aren't a traditional 30 front as we run a lot of 46 bear and 40 fronts as well, so that's why it's ideal to go BPA so you don't over-draft any players.

I love Warmack as much as the next guy, he's an absolute stud. However, his value over guys like Cooper, Warford and Bailey isn't the same as the disparity between Mingo/Werner/JJones compared to some of the guys you'd get in the lower first or high second. With the top ten pick, you're looking for someone who can be a game-changer on every play and in today's NFL that's either QB or pass-rusher. I just think a combination of Jarvis Jones/Mingo/Werner and Bailery/Barrett Jones/Warford is better than Warmack and Hunt or someone.

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You have no idea if he's DeMarcus Ware, thats a special player.

That's the idea though; a lot of the guys like Ghoston didn't fail because of the transition from DE to OLB, they failed simply because they weren't good enough. This argument does have some validity to it, as there are some players who definitely fit one scheme better, but some of these guys you can just tell are scheme diverse. You have guys like Von miller who was a 43 RDE in college, then played 43 OLB then to the jack/hybrid position and while many viewed him as a poor fit for the 43, that's where he's been and has excelled. He would have been just as dominant in the 34 most likely, but these types of players, which I believe Werner to be, can seem to play in any scheme. I'm hoping guys like Mingo and Jones are as well, because there will be a run on pass-rushers and I just hope one falls to us.

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That's the idea though; a lot of the guys like Ghoston didn't fail because of the transition from DE to OLB, they failed simply because they weren't good enough. This argument does have some validity to it, as there are some players who definitely fit one scheme better, but some of these guys you can just tell are scheme diverse. You have guys like Von miller who was a 43 RDE in college, then played 43 OLB then to the jack/hybrid position and while many viewed him as a poor fit for the 43, that's where he's been and has excelled. He would have been just as dominant in the 34 most likely, but these types of players, which I believe Werner to be, can seem to play in any scheme. I'm hoping guys like Mingo and Jones are as well, because there will be a run on pass-rushers and I just hope one falls to us.

You're not addressing my point that Rex's D doesn't need an elite pass rusher and that the Jets had the worst offense in the NFL last season. They have to address this offense and an all pro guard to run behind for 12 years is EXACTLY what starts it. Edited by unbanmadmike1
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i agree with both sides. Yes he's a 4-3 DE and yes he's the bap at 9. You can't pass on him if he's there. But he won't be... so...

He's not going to be the BAP for the Jets even if he's there at 9.

Werner could be a nasty 34 DE ala JJ Watt....but in this scenario with both him and Jones on the board -- I would trade down.

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Trading down, in this mock, enables us to roll the dice on landing Jones, Werner, Chance, or our top rated WR.

I think we may be able to trade down to #12 (w Miami) and recoup a third round pick (they have two). They get their top rated OT-leftovers (Fisher or Lane), and do so in front of the OT-hungry Chargers. As a result we are risking our OLB-of-choice from getting selected by MIA, TEN or SD; two of which spent big bucks and/or selections on the OLB position last year.

I would then tempt the fate-Gods even further by trading down yet again. (in my dream world) With Cincinatti who has the #21 pick in the first (and 2-2nd round picks) . The chart would give us pick #53.

That means we would have: #21(1st); #39, #53 (2nd); #72, #82(3rd)

add in the potential Revis (1st and 2nd) and we have 7 picks in the first 3 rounds.

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Trading down, in this mock, enables us to roll the dice on landing Jones, Werner, Chance, or our top rated WR.

I think we may be able to trade down to #12 (w Miami) and recoup a third round pick (they have two). They get their top rated OT-leftovers (Fisher or Lane), and do so in front of the OT-hungry Chargers. As a result we are risking our OLB-of-choice from getting selected by MIA, TEN or SD; two of which spent big bucks and/or selections on the OLB position last year.

I would then tempt the fate-Gods even further by trading down yet again. (in my dream world) With Cincinatti who has the #21 pick in the first (and 2-2nd round picks) . The chart would give us pick #53.

That means we would have: #21(1st); #39, #53 (2nd); #72, #82(3rd)

add in the potential Revis (1st and 2nd) and we have 7 picks in the first 3 rounds.

This isn't the draft you want to have 7 picks in the first 3 rounds in though.
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This isn't the draft you want to have 7 picks in the first 3 rounds in though.

We are SHOPPING for a new team. I wouldn't mind having 2-1's and trading one for a 2014 1st.

However, this year is strong for WRs, RBs, Safeties, OL and OLBs.

I'll be damned if we don't get one of each.

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You're not addressing my point that Rex's D doesn't need an elite pass rusher and that the Jets had the worst offense in the NFL last season. They have to address this offense and an all pro guard to run behind for 12 years is EXACTLY what starts it.

I didn't know that was your point as the only thing you stated was if we don't go offense it means Rex is running the show. The Jets had the worst offense last season, but how did their Oline grade out? If you're worried about the offense, why don't you want to draft an impact WR or a RB?? Warmack is great, but you simply do not draft interior lineman top ten overall, the return just isn't their, it's a waste of a pick when we have so many other holes. Our oline graded out quite well this past season and plugging in an all-pro OG, isn't going to make our offense do a 180 when we still have no one throwing the ball. Take some of the best olineman (forgive me, I'm using 2011 advanced stat rankings as I don't want to look further) and you have Carl Nicks, Yanda, Evan Mathis, Josh sitton, Mike Iupati. Of those five, only Iupati was drafted in the first and was considered quite a reach when he was drafted 17th overall.

The reason interior lineman do not get drafted that high is the difference between an all-pro and a servicable guard is negligible compared to a pass-rusher, corner, WR etc.

As for Rex's scheme; don't you believe he'll be gone anyways? Even if he stays, just because he can generate pressure by schemes, doesn't mean he couldn't utilize a stud rusher; look what he did with Suggs and thomas.

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I didn't know that was your point as the only thing you stated was if we don't go offense it means Rex is running the show. The Jets had the worst offense last season, but how did their Oline grade out? If you're worried about the offense, why don't you want to draft an impact WR or a RB?? Warmack is great, but you simply do not draft interior lineman top ten overall, the return just isn't their, it's a waste of a pick when we have so many other holes. Our oline graded out quite well this past season and plugging in an all-pro OG, isn't going to make our offense do a 180 when we still have no one throwing the ball. Take some of the best olineman (forgive me, I'm using 2011 advanced stat rankings as I don't want to look further) and you have Carl Nicks, Yanda, Evan Mathis, Josh sitton, Mike Iupati. Of those five, only Iupati was drafted in the first and was considered quite a reach when he was drafted 17th overall.

The reason interior lineman do not get drafted that high is the difference between an all-pro and a servicable guard is negligible compared to a pass-rusher, corner, WR etc.

As for Rex's scheme; don't you believe he'll be gone anyways? Even if he stays, just because he can generate pressure by schemes, doesn't mean he couldn't utilize a stud rusher; look what he did with Suggs and thomas.

Do you really trust this Jet FO who drafted Vlad Ducassa to draft an all pro guard in the 3rd round? Take the guy who you know is going to be great.
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