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Tannenbaum- "I'd build my franchise around Russell Wilson over Luck, RG3 and Kaepernick"


Matt39
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Actually, there is no evidence that he ignored you.  It's nice to think that we could have gotten Wilson with our 3rd, but it isn't factually correct.  Horrible as the Jets were, they picked a few slots behind those dominant Seahawks.  That is why the Jets traded "up" with Seattle to pick Hill and why Wilson was not available in the 3rd when the Jets took Demario Davis.  They would have had to use their 2nd or heaven forfend, trade up to nab Wilson.  

 

Stupid Tanny.  Why didn't he listen?

LOL, ya , I know, but felt we should have manuevered a bit to get him :)

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The alleged mobile QB doesn't win the Super Bowl until they stop being mobile. They're shoot-first point guards. Brady, Ben, Flacco, and Eli can't break a 5.6 in the 40, but they've got rings. Luck will win more playoff games than Wilson and RGIII combined.

QB is obviously the most important position but it's not like they're a starting pitcher or goalie either. Just saying, the team surrounding them has to be taken into consideration as part of the equation (Coaching and talent). Unfortunately that's a whole other debate...but that said, I think Luck, hands down, had the worst talent and coaching surrounding him out of the four and still made it to the playoffs. 

Edited by HessStation
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The alleged mobile QB doesn't win the Super Bowl until they stop being mobile. They're shoot-first point guards. Brady, Ben, Flacco, and Eli can't break a 5.6 in the 40, but they've got rings. Luck will win more playoff games than Wilson and RGIII combined.

how about more playoff wins than Sanchez, Wilson, and RG3 combined.

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Luck is the best, by far, and it isn't close. 

 

I don't think so. He may be the better QB, but not by far. If I had to pick, I'd pick Wilson right now. Luck had too many turnovers, which is normal for a rookie starting QB. Russell didn't. Luck had far more passing yards than Russell, but thats because Seahawks were a far superior run team than Colts. They didn't have to throw as much. This is evident by the number of TDs to attempts ratio each player had:

 

Andrew Luck 23 in 627 attempts (27.26 attempts per TD)

Russell Wilson 26 in 393 attempts (15.11 attempts per TD, almost half of Luck)

 

Stats don't tell the whole story. The only knock on Russell was that he was considered too short to play the game and didn't have downfield vision. I think after running for almost 500 yards and passing at over 100 QB rating, that notion can be dismissed. I'd build my team around Wilson as well (or Kapernick). QB position is evolving in to a scrambling QB. Brady has next to no mobility. If he was even 10% of Russell or Kaep, he would have had several more rings.

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I stole this from somewhere else but it's a good template to work from if you want to debate which young QB you're taking to start a team. This is in terms of college prospects but the fact that we know a little bit more about these guys only helps imo. The problem is I think within each bullet you could make an argument.  Interestingly enough though, 'height' is not on the list. 

 

A Top 10 list of what NFL talent evaluators look for when figuring if a college passer has what it takes to succeed at the league's premier position. Info provided by Sports Illustrated May 1st, 2006 Issue :



QUARTERBACK CHECKLIST

#1 ARM STRENGTH : The Redskins overlooked this in drafting Heath Shuler at #3 IN 1994, as did the Bears in taking Cade McNown at #12 in 1999. " Name the last great quarterback who didn't have a strong arm," says former Giants passer Phil Simms. " I can't." In this draft, Jay Cutler of Vanderbilt and Kellen Clemens of Oregon would please Simms.

#2 FOOTBALL IQ : "The most important thing we do in evaluating a quarterback," says Titans coach Jeff Fisher, "is putting him up in front of our staff, firing questions at him and seeing if he can break down defenses and analyze why he makes certain decisions." Teams like that Matt Leinart got a head start by studying the NFL game tape last fall while at USC.

#3 ACCURACY : Michael Vick of the Falcons, the #1 pick in 2001, remains vexed by what troubled him at Virginia Tech : a low completion percentage. Vick's rate is 54.1% , about five points BELOW the league average. That's two or three completions per game that stops drives.

#4 MOBILITY : Good Vision and nimble feet can make up for sheer speed. The Colts Peyton Manning , the first pick in the 1998 draft, can move in the pocket and avoid rushers well enough.

#5 LEADERSHIP : Tom Brady is a regular at the Patriots' off-season workout programs. It's not hard to get full attendance when this era's Joe Montana leads the way.

#6 TOUGHNESS : Packers GM Tom Wolf, whom traded for Brett Favre in 1992 and later drafted Matt Hasselbeck in the 6th round in 1998, figured out Favre when, 31 days after stomach surgery, Favre took the field and led his college team, Southern Mississippi, to victory.

#7 RESUME : Says Saints coach Sean Payton, " I want to see a winner, a competitor, a guy who plays great from behind, a guy who plays well in big games." Though Cutler was on a bad Vanderbilt team, coaches believe he raised the play of the Commodores significantly.

#8 MATURITY : In 1998 the Chargers (drafting 2nd) overlooked such red flags around Ryan Leaf as his skipping his interview with the Colts (who held the 1st pick) at the scouting combine.

#9 PEDIGREE : " I love a coach's or player's son," says Eagles coach Andy Reid. "Favre, Hasselbeck, Ty Detmer, Mark Brunell, A.J. Feeley-- they've had the competitive part of the game pounded into them. They're going to know what it takes to win."

#10 HAND SIZE : No Kidding. Teams want a guy whose outstretched throwing hand measures at least 9 1/2 inches from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger. The Eagles knocked Daunte Culpepper off their draft list in 1999 in part because of his small hands.
 
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I stole this from somewhere else but it's a good template to work from if you want to debate which young QB you're taking to start a team. This is in terms of college prospects but the fact that we know a little bit more about these guys only helps imo. The problem is I think within each bullet you could make an argument.  Interestingly enough though, 'height' is not on the list. 

 

A Top 10 list of what NFL talent evaluators look for when figuring if a college passer has what it takes to succeed at the league's premier position. Info provided by Sports Illustrated May 1st, 2006 Issue :

QUARTERBACK CHECKLIST

#6 TOUGHNESS : Packers GM Tom Wolf, whom traded for Brett Favre in 1992 and later drafted Matt Hasselbeck in the 6th round in 1998, figured out Favre when, 31 days after stomach surgery, Favre took the field and led his college team, Southern Mississippi, to victory..

 

 

 

The guy that wrote the Right Stuff and Bonfire of the Vanities was the GM of the Packers?  When?

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Seahawks did a fantastic job playing to Wilson's strengths this year. Constantly keeping him on the move, a lot of rolling out, p/a bootlegs, read option type stuff. Read option is still too new and shiny, if I'm building a team I'm not yet sold that it will sustain as a viable option in the NFL. Will Defenses eventually figure it out? None the less, by design, they had Wilson constantly throwing on the run. In years 2 or 3 will teams start to eventually catch up? Luck, on the other hand has all the tools and is by far the superior pocket passer. Both are incredibly accurate with strong arms. But nobody is going to surpass Luck on intelligence and reading defenses. Wilson is 5'10, 205 and Luck is 6'4 235. All 4 QBs are the hottest in the NFL right now. All look like they're going to be really good. 

Edited by HessStation
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Interesting...Luck had a 54% completion rate while Wilson had 64%, RG3 had 66% and Kaep had 62%.

 

So accuracy to you is a statistical measure?  To me it is about putting the all where it needs to be on all throws, not just dump offs and screen passes.  If you only believe in numbers, check Luck' college numbers for verfication of what I say.

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Seahawks did a fantastic job playing to Wilson's strengths this year. Constantly keeping him on the move, a lot of rolling out, p/a bootlegs, read option type stuff. Read option is still too new and shiny, if I'm building a team I'm not yet sold that it will sustain as a viable option in the NFL. Will Defenses eventually figure it out? None the less, by design, they had Wilson constantly throwing on the run. In years 2 or 3 will teams start to eventually catch up? Luck, on the other hand has all the tools and is by far the superior pocket passer. Both are incredibly accurate with strong arms. But nobody is going to surpass Luck on intelligence and reading defenses. Wilson is 5'10, 205 and Luck is 6'4 235. All 4 QBs are the hottest in the NFL right now. All look like they're going to be really good. 

 

You on to something. And I agree to it to a certain extent. As the teams catch on to Wilson, he too will improve. Vick had his most productive season after being in the NFL for 10 years (including 2 in jail). Every team knows that if u take away his run game, he turns in to an average QB, yet he was very successful in 2010. Injuries are what has kept him from taking the next step.

 

We are really talking about if we want someone who is #1 or who is an A. They are two different types of QB and I think they both have huge potential. Difference of opinion, in my opinion.

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So accuracy to you is a statistical measure?  To me it is about putting the all where it needs to be on all throws, not just dump offs and screen passes.  If you only believe in numbers, check Luck' college numbers for verfication of what I say.

 

Statistics do tell a lot of about accuracy. Its not the entire story, but when theres a huge difference, its significance needs to be mentioned. Their college numbers were very identical in 2011.

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You on to something. And I agree to it to a certain extent. As the teams catch on to Wilson, he too will improve. Vick had his most productive season after being in the NFL for 10 years (including 2 in jail). Every team knows that if u take away his run game, he turns in to an average QB, yet he was very successful in 2010. Injuries are what has kept him from taking the next step.

We are really talking about if we want someone who is #1 or who is an A. They are two different types of QB and I think they both have huge potential. Difference of opinion, in my opinion.

exactly. We're only talking about 1 of 4 very good QBs.There a lot of risk taking Wilson. Same with RG3 as we've already seen it. But RG3 is at least 6'2. Tbh, factoring in all the risk/reward I'd probably go

Luck

Kaepernick

Then maybe Wilson but only bc RG3 is already hurt.

If the read option is eventually figured out and defenses figure out how to contain these mobile QBs, I need to rest my hat on having a pocket passer.

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Luck threw it 627 times for 4,374 yards

Wilson 393 for 3,118

RG3 393 for 3,200 

Kaepernick 218 for 1,814

 

Are you highlighting how Luck passed for more yards. I already discussed that. His run game was below average so the Colt relied on passing game. Wilson had a very good run game and took early leads in games and never looked back (for the most part). Wilson's TD to Pass attempt ratio is almost half of Luck's.

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Are you highlighting how Luck passed for more yards. I already discussed that. His run game was below average so the Colt relied on passing game. Wilson had a very good run game and took early leads in games and never looked back (for the most part). Wilson's TD to Pass attempt ratio is almost half of Luck's.

No, I follow you. Just showing the bigger picture. Can't deny or omit the %'s. But there's more to it such as attempts and yards. That said, there's more to that than just attempts and yards. There's a slew of tangibles (tds/ints etc)...and intangibles.  (system/surrounding talent/coaching etc etc.)

Edited by HessStation
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exactly. We're only talking about 1 of 4 very good QBs.There a lot of risk taking Wilson. Same with RG3 as we've already seen it. But RG3 is at least 6'2. Tbh, factoring in all the risk/reward I'd probably go

Luck

Kaepernick

Then maybe Wilson but only bc RG3 is already hurt.

If the read option is eventually figured out and defenses figure out how to contain these mobile QBs, I need to rest my hat on having a pocket passer.

 

Wilson may not be ur typical pocket passer, but he's not a Vick version 2.0 either. He'll stay in the pocket to make plays but if its not there, he'll roll out. If he sees an opening, he'll take off. I don't think he premeditates which plays to run on. So far, he's been really good at deciding when to take off running.

 

I love RG3 and would take him over any QB in the NFL, but his problem will be the same as Vick's, staying healthy. For that reason alone, I'd go with Wilson, who is a safer pick than RG3. RG3 can be careless with himself at times, just like Vick.

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