Yahoo: Bucs offer 1st, 3rd, 6th for Revis; to pay him $15m-$16m

[bitonti]

You are wrong, but that is ok. Call it re-allocation of resources in appropriate areas, if it makes you feel better.

 

Re allocation is fine. All I want to know is who are they gonna re-allocate this money toward? No one has a clear answer. It certainly isn't going to be spent on 2013 players. 

[Scott Dierking]

Re allocation is fine. All I want to know is who are they gonna re-allocate this money toward? No one has a clear answer. It certainly isn't going to be spent on 2013 players. 

I wish that I had an answer for that too, and that we could set up a 1:1 for discussion. That is the unfortunate part of fandom where "trust" sometimes has to take root. And I understand that trust is earned, also.

 

here is where I am coming from-Idzik represents something that is new. The old wasn't working and I particularly was getting more and more frustrated in direction. This represents a new direction, only in the matter that it is different than the old.

 

Does that give an unlimited leash? of course not. But at least I hope hope, which I did not have sitting in this seat last year.

[bitonti]

I wish that I had an answer for that too, and that we could set up a 1:1 for discussion. That is the unfortunate part of fandom where "trust" sometimes has to take root. And I understand that trust is earned, also.

 

here is where I am coming from-Idzik represents something that is new. The old wasn't working and I particularly was getting more and more frustrated in direction. This represents a new direction, only in the matter that it is different than the old.

 

Does that give an unlimited leash? of course not. But at least I hope hope, which I did not have sitting in this seat last year.

 

imagine the Jets find a player that's worth what they would have paid Revis. 

 

now imagine this player gets hurt in week 3 of the season, where the team is 2-1 at that time. 

 

How much of that is Idzik's fault? 

 

I know Tannenbaum made a ton of mistakes but Revis wasn't one of em.

[SenorGato]

You are very good at talking yourself into anything. Ask the Pittsburgh Steelers about "cap hell" and how good they feel about it this off-season, for a supposedly fictionalized strife.

 

Hey, it's only money right? It doesn't really need to be managed, does it? 

 

How do they feel, since I assume you asked? 

[Scott Dierking]

How do they feel, since I assume you asked? 

Based on their fans that I know, they feel a window of opportunity closing.

[Scott Dierking]

imagine the Jets find a player that's worth what they would have paid Revis. 

 

now imagine this player gets hurt in week 3 of the season, where the team is 2-1 at that time. 

 

How much of that is Idzik's fault? 

 

I know Tannenbaum made a ton of mistakes but Revis wasn't one of em.

My problems with the past regime (and Rex) has a lot more to do than a CB getting hurt in week 3.

[derp]

Re allocation is fine. All I want to know is who are they gonna re-allocate this money toward? No one has a clear answer. It certainly isn't going to be spent on 2013 players. 

 

Pretty sure around 3 million goes away if/when they trade Revis and they'll need around 6 million to sign rookies. More if they get the 13th pick, too.

[Bleedin Green]

imagine the Jets find a player that's worth what they would have paid Revis. 

 

now imagine this player gets hurt in week 3 of the season, where the team is 2-1 at that time. 

 

How much of that is Idzik's fault? 

 

I know Tannenbaum made a ton of mistakes but Revis wasn't one of em.

 

This again?  I totally get that you think Revis is an unmatched player who is worth far more than apparently the Jets and many here think he is.  That said, this constant attempt to convince people that the Jets record after three games last season somehow is any measurement of Revis' value is absolutely absurd, especially when considering that second win involved the Jets coming from behind in the 4th quarter after Revis had already been knocked out of the game.

[bitonti]

This again?  I totally get that you think Revis is an unmatched player who is worth far more than apparently the Jets and many here think he is.  That said, this constant attempt to convince people that the Jets record after three games last season somehow is any measurement of Revis' value is absolutely absurd, especially when considering that second win involved the Jets coming from behind in the 4th quarter after Revis had already been knocked out of the game.

 

why is it absurd that a team would fall apart after losing it's best player? it seems realistic. 

[jetsjetsjetss]

why is it absurd that a team would fall apart after losing it's best player? it seems realistic. 

 

Revis being knocked out is the reason our offense sucked last year?

 

I dont remember anyone saying our D was as atrocious as the offense

[bitonti]

Revis being knocked out is the reason our offense sucked last year?

 

I dont remember anyone saying our D was as atrocious as the offense

 

when a team loses it's best player it effects everyone. This goes for pee-wee teams all the way up to NFL teams. Alot of it is psychological, to be sure. But it's a factor. Im not making a direct connection between Revis' knee and the buttfumble but it is a factor. 

[SenorGato]

Oh FANS?!?! Lololololololol

They lost their second best.player on offense and his.production is partially dependent on their actual best player. They've let their past three "#1" WRs go....me thinks they will survive their cap heck.

[SenorGato]

why is it absurd that a team would fall apart after losing it's best player? it seems realistic.

The only thing.realistic in all this that the Jets have to pay Aaron Rodgers and cant afford to use that money to pay Revis.

[jetsjetsjetss]

when a team loses it's best player it effects everyone. This goes for pee-wee teams all the way up to NFL teams. Alot of it is psychological, to be sure. But it's a factor. Im not making a direct connection between Revis' knee and the buttfumble but it is a factor. 

 

Its only changes anything if he was a leader in the locker room (idk was he?). Also the D and the O are almost two different entities on the jets you can not be serious saying it was a factor for sanchez sucking or other stuff. Sanchez cant throw the ball to his own team because they lost a defensive player?

 

Please these are paid professionals which have been playing football most of there lives.

 

Edit: Injuries sure hurt the packers when they won the super bowl with like half their team on the IR

[Scott Dierking]

when a team loses it's best player it effects everyone. This goes for pee-wee teams all the way up to NFL teams. Alot of it is psychological, to be sure. But it's a factor. Im not making a direct connection between Revis' knee and the buttfumble but it is a factor. 

Too bad that the Ravens did not buy into that psychological babble, with all the injuries they had, to only go on and win the Super Bowl.

 

If the jets players suffered psychological trauma after losing Revis, then their coach is not what you crack him up to be.

[bitonti]

If the jets players suffered psychological trauma after losing Revis, then their coach is not what you crack him up to be.

 

It's not psychological trauma per se but you have to admit it hurts. You bring up the Ravens, here's a fact they don't have a defender as good as Revis on their team. if you ask some coaches or scouts Revis is the best defender in football. 

 

I never played NFL football but I have played football (and other sports) and when your teams best player goes down for the year here's what happens:

 

1) during the game it's a brief terrible shock but you don't think about it cause he might come back at some point and there's a game going on. DENIAL

2) when it's apparent he's not coming back for the year, next its a deep bum out that effects everyone from head coach to ball boy. It's like a sadness. team sports are often psychological situation where chemistry and confidence are real factors. When you lose Superman your logical brain says "we are screwed" 

3) Next day or whenever the team calms down but resolves puts pressure on themselves to win in spite of the setbacks. This pressure builds and leads to players getting tense and pressing extra hard. 

4) meanwhile the other teams see blood in the water and it's like a gift from heaven to open up the scouting report for the Jets and gameplan for them without Revis. We only look at it from the JEts perspective but the other side gets paid too. 

 

as for Rex's coaching the fact they still ended up 6th in pass defense (as Revis haters love to spout) says it all. Rex is the most creative defensive coach in football today. 

 

note I am not blaming 6-10 on Revis. But every season is different and when the Jets lost him, everyone in the nation knew they were done. 

[pedro55]

why is it absurd that a team would fall apart after losing it's best player? it seems realistic. 

 

  So with one of the worst offenses in the NFL and one of the worst QB performances in a long long time, the Jets finished 6-10.  

The year before they finished 8-8 with Revis.  What was the excuse that year for not winning?

[SenorGato]

So with one of the worst offenses in the NFL and one of the worst QB performances in a long long time, the Jets finished 6-10.

The year before they finished 8-8 with Revis. What was the excuse that year for not winning?

Still Sanchez, yep. He was just less bad than he was in 2012, which isn't.saying much.

[Bleedin Green]

why is it absurd that a team would fall apart after losing it's best player? it seems realistic. 

 

Fall apart?  The team went from 8-8 the prior season to 6-10, hardly a massive fall.  After all, even with a healthy Revis in 2011 (which they didn't have for the entire year in 2010) the Jets saw a more significant fall before that of 11 wins and an AFC Championship appearance down to 8 wins.  And there is literally no evidence to support the idea that the two game difference had anything to do with Revis' absence, despite your claims otherwise.  Actually, the evidence would suggest quite the opposite, given where the Jets saw the biggest issues in their 2012 team vs the 2011 one.  Let's take a look.  First, the defense:

 

Jets D 2011 - 363 pts (20th in NFL)

Jets D 2012 - 375 pts (20th in NFL)

That means, over the course of 16 games, the Jets let up a grand total of 12 more points without Revis and ultimately came in at the same league-wide ranking.  Not to mention, the Jets D's 23.4 PPG for the season is less than the 25 PPG given up during that 2-1 start, which gives little credence to your theory that Revis' presence was the sole factor in the difference in those records.  Keep in mind, the only teams who scored more points against the Jets than the 28 scored by the Bills in the opener were the Patriots and 49ers, two significantly better teams than those Bills.

Now, the offense:

Jets O 2011 - 377 pts (13th in NFL)

Jets O 2012 - 281 pts (28th in NFL)

 

That's right, between the two seasons the Jets scored 96 less points in 2012, moving 15 spots down to the bottom 5 in the league in scoring.  The team have SEVEN games on the season in which they scored 10 or less points (actually managing to win one of them, but to be clear, not the one of them which Revis played in).

 

So, outside of making up some ridiculous argument that attempts to credit Revis for the change in offensive success and how his absence is the cause for Sanchez putting up 19 less TDs on the season, it's pretty apparent that the Jets' biggest issues last season were in no way related to Revis.  That doesn't mean Revis isn't a great player, it simply means there is absolutely no basis for trying to give him credit for everything the Jets did or didn't do based solely on his presence.

[Scott Dierking]

as for Rex's coaching the fact they still ended up 6th in pass defense (as Revis haters love to spout) says it all. Rex is the most creative defensive coach in football today. 

 

Or, teams did not have to pass much against the Jets, they could plod down the field, hold onto the ball, knowing that the Jets offense would not threaten them.

 

Rex's genius defense was more a byproduct of his horrible offense. And, if he is going to get credit for one, he needs to take blame for the others. As his ball washers never seem to concede.

[Sperm Edwards]

Or, teams did not have to pass much against the Jets, they could plod down the field, hold onto the ball, knowing that the Jets offense would not threaten them.

 

Rex's genius defense was more a byproduct of his horrible offense. And, if he is going to get credit for one, he needs to take blame for the others. As his ball washers never seem to concede.

 

Thanks for making me picture Rex's balls early in the morning.  I really hate you sometimes.

[The Crusher]

when a team loses it's best player it effects everyone. This goes for pee-wee teams all the way up to NFL teams. Alot of it is psychological, to be sure. But it's a factor. Im not making a direct connection between Revis' knee and the buttfumble but it is a factor. 

 

 

Mostly because in Pee Wee football the best player is usually the kid that matures the quickest and he usually plays both way and dominates.  In the pro most of them are grown damn men and been awhile since anyone played both ways.  Yet pretty sure Brady GO's both ways but save that for another thread. 

[Scott Dierking]

Mostly because in Pee Wee football the best player is usually the kid that matures the quickest and he usually plays both way and dominates.  In the pro most of them are grown damn men and been awhile since anyone played both ways.  Yet pretty sure Brady GO's both ways but save that for another thread. 

When Brady went down, his team RALLIED, as the hetero's saw an opportunity to take the team to new places.

 

Really, any team that suffers a catastrophic emotional letdown because of an injury to a star player is SOFT.

[Gastineau Lives]

why is it absurd that a team would fall apart after losing it's best player? it seems realistic. 

Yeah, I knew last season reminded me of something. It was the 2011 Colts. Mystery solved.

[Gastineau Lives]

Or, teams did not have to pass much against the Jets, they could plod down the field, hold onto the ball, knowing that the Jets offense would not threaten them.

 

Rex's genius defense was more a byproduct of his horrible offense. And, if he is going to get credit for one, he needs to take blame for the others. As his ball washers never seem to concede.

You would think so, but actually teams passed only thirteen more times against the Jets in 2012 vs the year before for a very Sanchez-like 53 percent passing and 6.5 per attempt.

[The Crusher]

When Brady went down, his team RALLIED, as the hetero's saw an opportunity to take the team to new places.

 

Really, any team that suffers a catastrophic emotional letdown because of an injury to a star player is SOFT.

 

 

Fine.  Then take Bits side.

[Scott Dierking]

You would think so, but actually teams passed only thirteen more times against the Jets in 2012 vs the year before for a very Sanchez-like 53 percent passing and 6.5 per attempt.

Why would teams need to pass against the jets? They could play a conservative offensive strategy, keep the ball on the ground and be risk averse. It was not like they needed to put more than 20 points on the board to win.

[slats]

Why would teams need to pass against the jets? They could play a conservative offensive strategy, keep the ball on the ground and be risk averse. It was not like they needed to put more than 20 points on the board to win.

This is very true, and an argument to try to keep Revis. He becomes much more important if the offense ever gets average.

[Gastineau Lives]

Why would teams need to pass against the jets? They could play a conservative offensive strategy, keep the ball on the ground and be risk averse. It was not like they needed to put more than 20 points on the board to win.

Sure, but you still must explain the low completion percentage and the low ypa. And let's not pretend this is like the Raiders running the ball 19 times in a row to start a game vs us. We're not that far off the league avg of attempts against. A half an attempt per game less than league average, 31.4 was league avg. Teams threw 30.9 times a game versus us. And coincidentally, ran the ball almost the exact same amount of times 495 rushes, 494 passes.

[Scott Dierking]

Sure, but you still must explain the low completion percentage and the low ypa. And let's not pretend this is like the Raiders running the ball 19 times in a row to start a game vs us. We're not that far off the league avg of attempts against. A half an attempt per game less than league average, 31.4 was league avg. Teams threw 30.9 times a game versus us. And coincidentally, ran the ball almost the exact same amount of times 495 rushes, 494 passes.

The Jets have Cromartie and in the offseason made a commitment to him. A commitment that would make it difficult to pour more heavy dollars into the secondary.

 

This is now a passing league and the best offense is a good offense. teams that rely on defense are a dying breed. It is a very difficult way to win in today's game and with the rule changes and the flattened cap. You can't afford to have your secondary be one of your highest paid units. It is not smart cap management.

[Sperm Edwards]

There's some truth to both.  The pass defense was good.  Not great, but good.  And also, teams didn't need to pass as much against the Jets as they otherwise would have.

 

It also coincides with a worse rush defense that allowed teams to move the chains.  Whether they pass a higher percentage of their plays or not, moving the chains will also lead to more gross pass attempts even though a smaller percentage of plays they faced were passing plays.  (Teams passed on the '11 Jets 53% of the time.  They passed on the '12 Jets 50% of the time).

 

We scored over 20 points 5x last year (holy crap that is f*cking pathetic and has nothing to do with Revis).  That is enough points to warrant passing the football.  Even still, we only gave up one 300-yard passing game all year (320 to the Pats) and even that was thanks to an 80-yard run on a checkdown that ordinarily goes for 7 yards rather than due to poor pass coverage of TEs and WRs.

 

Still, look at the individual games.  There were some good ones for the D, when the other team needed to score points (Indy being the best game).  Then there were others where teams really didn't attempt a pass unless down & distance forced it (like Seattle, who only attempted 20 passes the whole game while putting up 28 points).  Same thing with the 49ers game, which was a blowout despite Alex Smith doing nothing on barely 20 attempts.  Pittsburgh attempted more passes than runs because we stuffed their crappy ground game so effectively, and our pass D had no answers for Roethlisberger; if we put up some points on offense Pittsburgh would have scored 50 instead of 27 the way we were defending the pass (with a 100% healthy Revis, I might add).  We also had the good fortune to play against Ryan Lindley and Jake Locker and rookie Tannehill twice in addition to teams blowing us out without passing.  All of that has an effect on our year-end ranking.

 

The pass defense didn't completely fall apart last year.  There were games against productive passing attacks where they couldn't just have their way with us (Houston, Indy).  Even StLouis - Bradford wasn't too good last year but he was a lot better than <4 ypa against everyone else.  I could also point to some of the defensive woes being on the offense that kept putting them back on the field so quickly and with such frequency.  That isn't insignificant either.

 

Funny thing is our defense gave up more ppg with Revis than without him last year.  Of course it's not a fair comparison due to the small sample size with Revis, but still.  27.5 ppg surrendered with a healthy Revis, and none of that was fumble returns, pick-6 returns, or special teams returns.  Try to point to the defense falling apart after Revis got hurt, but statistically they improved quite significantly.

[The Crusher]

This is very true, and an argument to try to keep Revis. He becomes much more important if the offense ever gets average.

 

 

"Goal setting"   Jet fan style.  LMAO

[Scott Dierking]

There's some truth to both.  The pass defense was good.  Not great, but good.  And also, teams didn't need to pass as much against the Jets as they otherwise would have.

 

It also coincides with a worse rush defense that allowed teams to move the chains.  Whether they pass a higher percentage of their plays or not, moving the chains will also lead to more gross pass attempts even though a smaller percentage of plays they faced were passing plays.  (Teams passed on the '11 Jets 53% of the time.  They passed on the '12 Jets 50% of the time).

 

We scored over 20 points 5x last year (holy crap that is f*cking pathetic and has nothing to do with Revis).  That is enough points to warrant passing the football.  Even still, we only gave up one 300-yard passing game all year (320 to the Pats) and even that was thanks to an 80-yard run on a checkdown that ordinarily goes for 7 yards rather than due to poor pass coverage of TEs and WRs.

 

Still, look at the individual games.  There were some good ones for the D, when the other team needed to score points (Indy being the best game).  Then there were others where teams really didn't attempt a pass unless down & distance forced it (like Seattle, who only attempted 20 passes the whole game while putting up 28 points).  Same thing with the 49ers game, which was a blowout despite Alex Smith doing nothing on barely 20 attempts.  Pittsburgh attempted more passes than runs because we stuffed their crappy ground game so effectively, and our pass D had no answers for Roethlisberger; if we put up some points on offense Pittsburgh would have scored 50 instead of 27 the way we were defending the pass (with a 100% healthy Revis, I might add).  We also had the good fortune to play against Ryan Lindley and Jake Locker and rookie Tannehill twice in addition to teams blowing us out without passing.  All of that has an effect on our year-end ranking.

 

The pass defense didn't completely fall apart last year.  There were games against productive passing attacks where they couldn't just have their way with us (Houston, Indy).  Even StLouis - Bradford wasn't too good last year but he was a lot better than <4 ypa against everyone else.  I could also point to some of the defensive woes being on the offense that kept putting them back on the field so quickly and with such frequency.  That isn't insignificant either.

 

Funny thing is our defense gave up more ppg with Revis than without him last year.  Of course it's not a fair comparison due to the small sample size with Revis, but still.  27.5 ppg surrendered with a healthy Revis, and none of that was fumble returns, pick-6 returns, or special teams returns.  Try to point to the defense falling apart after Revis got hurt, but statistically they improved quite significantly.

Can a defensive secondary subsist with Cromartie as its lead secondary defender with a cast of best fit players? I would say that it should.

 

Heck, if we need Cromartie AND Revis, because it gives everyone feelings of great comfort, what is the need for a great defensive coach then?  Somehow, other teams win in this league without 2 all pro defensive backs. It is not the best and smartest blueprint.

[Sperm Edwards]

Can a defensive secondary subsist with Cromartie as its lead secondary defender with a cast of best fit players? I would say that it should.

 

Heck, if we need Cromartie AND Revis, because it gives everyone feelings of great comfort, what is the need for a great defensive coach then?  Somehow, other teams win in this league without 2 all pro defensive backs. It is not the best and smartest blueprint.

 

Prepare yourself for no Cromartie next year either if he doesn't agree to an extension or outright pay cut.  I'm guessing extension but we'll see.

 

The point of my post is that I think the truth is somewhere in between.  We weren't a dominant pass defense but everyone couldn't just pass at will against us.  A lot of teams had far worse passing games against us than they did against their other opponents, and not all of that was due to a lower number of pass attempts.

[Gastineau Lives]

Can a defensive secondary subsist with Cromartie as its lead secondary defender with a cast of best fit players? I would say that it should.

 

Heck, if we need Cromartie AND Revis, because it gives everyone feelings of great comfort, what is the need for a great defensive coach then?  Somehow, other teams win in this league without 2 all pro defensive backs. It is not the best and smartest blueprint.

Exactly. It feels good to have them both back there, very secure like no one's going to pass on US.