Rex Ryan reaffirms that he's a Heckuvafootballcoachdefensively and doesn't care what anyone says

[T0mShane]

Don't know if you're being facetious or not, but if you aren't, I totally disagree. He brought respect to the franchise, but only collaterally, and that respect left with him. He didn't give a rat's ass about the Jets, only himself and his reputation. He did a lousy job shopping for groceries, supposedly caused the Jets to miss on Peyton Manning, quit on the team in '99 for about 5 games following Vinny's injury, then quit following the season, leaving us stuck with Bradway as the GM and Al Groh as the HC. He didn't build any kind of foundation for the franchise in the FO. He probably laughed his ass off knowing that he stuck the Jets with Bradway and Groh. Eff Bill Parcells.

Not this again.

Jets record three years pre-Parcells: 6-10, 3-13, 1-15.

That's 10-38 cumulative.

Jets record three years with Parcells: 9-7, 12-4, 8-8.

That's 29-19 cumulative.

Jets three years post-Parcells: 9-7, 10-6, 9-7.

That's 28-20 cumulative, with horrible coaches Al Groh and Herm Edwards riding the foundation that Parcells put together.

Jets fans that sh*t on Parcells are spurned girlfriends.

[Sperm Edwards]

Mangini knew about Favre's torn biceps.  The Jets kept it secret and that's why the league handed down a 6-figure fine.

 

Here's one of the articles:  

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2009/09/favre_told_ny_jets_he_was_hurt.html

 

"Subtle, just a yard off, two yards off, maybe a tad behind. The average person watching just didn't think -- and I'm not talking about when a guy is wide open; tight fits. Maybe I wanted to back shoulder throw a guy and I ended up leading a little bit, and the ball gets tipped and gets picked or something. I talked with Brian Schottenhemier, talked to Mike Tannenbaum, and my quarterback coach who now is the coordinator for Cleveland, and addressed that with him that I thought maybe I was doing more harm than good.

 

"They knew I had a torn biceps, which we backed off in practice. I took cortisone shots a couple times to try to relieve the pain. I started pressing. I was real receptive to (sitting). We felt like, after talking with each one of them, that it was best to just -- we'd come this far
-- to just finish it out. I had no qualms about having Kellen play, and that probably hasn't even been addressed before because I didn't think it would need to be addressed at the end of the season, but I just didn't feel confident because of this injury. So sure, I don't want to go through that and neither do the Vikings.''

 

 

I don't care what kind of lowlife Favre could be at times.  If it was just he said / she said, with him lying and the team denying it, the league wouldn't fine the team $125K.

[T0mShane]

Tannenbaum also gave out bad deals to players like Calvin Pace before Rex got here. When Revis, Ferguson, Mangold, and Harris were all up at the same time, a smart GM would recognize that you have to pick and choose who to sign there. Love Mangold, like Harris, but those contracts stink. The roster got old with no replacements to be found because Tannenbaum was trading picks for Sanchez, Greene, Braylon, Cromartie, Jenkins, Favre, Tebow, etc., etc., and handing them big money - rather than drafting and developing talent.

But again, you know this, which is why I find your argument here to be a tad dishonest.

If I'm guilty of anything, it's in trying to hang two men for the same crimes. Tannenbaum and Rex conspired to ruin the team. Tannenbaum burned resources, and Rex wasn't good enough to compensate. Every coach in the league has to find players to fill spots on the team, and every coach is responsible if those players fail, whether you're Tom Coughlin trying to patch together an offensive line, or you're Bill Belichick trying to cobble together a receiving corps, or you're John Harbaugh trying to figure out how to make your goofy quarterback better. I think there's a very real effort among Jets fans to peel away layers of what Rex's job entails to find the few things he does well, and they're latching on to those few things, not realizing that what they've done, in essence, is to describe the job of a defensive coordinator. He's not supposed to manage the roster. He's not supposed to oversee the offense. He doesn't need to control the locker room. He's not supposed to find a quarterback, etc. Don't you guys see yourself doing this at all? Rex is the Head Coach. What other head coach just gets to be responsible for one part of the team? You and Sperm are saying, in effect, that Rex is, and only should be, the defensive coordinator of the team.

Of course, all of this doesn't matter to John Idzik as long as he plans on being a real GM. He's put his front office in place now, and it looks like he's going to be buying the groceries. So what does he care about Rex's personnel skills? Answer is: he doesn't. He needs to improve the top of the roster, add depth, and have someone in place who can coach them. That's how he'll judge Rex this year.

We disagree here. Rex will have 90 guys in camp. He needs to pare that down to 53. He's gone through this process four times already. This is where a Head Coach needs to be a personnel guy. This is where a good Head Coach finds his depth, even if his nitwit GM ensured that many of those 90 weren't actual draft picks. What has the Rex regime produced from this process? Josh Mauga? Ellis Lankster? Part of coaching is in finding and developing talent. Rex's record on this is not good.

And yeah, I think Rex can coach.

Meh. I think Rex can scheme, and I think he can motivate over the short term, but his style of coaching--as it always has--has a short shelf life. Eventually, the players need a grown-up in the room, and not the wacky substitute teacher. In this way, Rex is a lot like Herm and Pete Carroll, each of whom figured it out eventually. It remains to be seen if Rex's message will still get through when he's not delivering it as the anti-authoritarian, super-popular class president.

Every winning team beats a bunch of losing teams. The Jets had a terrible roster last year going into the season, then lost their two best players. Getting six wins out of that team was an accomplishment. Mangini won four games with the roster that Rex allegedly got to the championship game. How many wins does he get out of last year's Jets? How many does Pete Carroll get? Shoot, how many does a Harbaugh get? I think six was pretty much the maximum available there.

This doesn't work in a vacuum. Bitonti asked this the other day. If you parachuted Mike Tomlin into the Jets locker room the day before the start of the 2012 season, yes, he would have had a hard time. But the team that Mike Tomlin, or Tom Coughlin, or even Pete Carroll took into that 2012 season, if they took it over in January, would not look like or act like the team that Rex brought into 2012. That was Rex's team that he helped put together over four years. The hypothetical that states, "even Successful Coach X couldn't win with that team" doesn't really work because Successful Coach X very likely doesn't go into 2012 with the team Rex did. That's why Successful Coach X is normally successful.

[slats]

We disagree here. Rex will have 90 guys in camp. He needs to pare that down to 53. He's gone through this process four times already. This is where a Head Coach needs to be a personnel guy. This is where a good Head Coach finds his depth, even if his nitwit GM ensured that many of those 90 weren't actual draft picks. What has the Rex regime produced from this process? Josh Mauga? Ellis Lankster? Part of coaching is in finding and developing talent. Rex's record on this is not good.

 

I think it's the GM's job to bring in the players and, yes, the head coach puts together his team from there.

 

So out of those 90 players that the GM provided for Rex every year, how many of those who didn't make the team went on to have success somewhere else? Because unless that's what's happening, it's hard to find fault with who he kept. I don't recall any Danny Woodheads during Rex's time here.

[JoeKlecko]

Not this again.

Jets record three years pre-Parcells: 6-10, 3-13, 1-15.

That's 10-38 cumulative.

Jets record three years with Parcells: 9-7, 12-4, 8-8.

That's 29-19 cumulative.

Jets three years post-Parcells: 9-7, 10-6, 9-7.

That's 28-20 cumulative, with horrible coaches Al Groh and Herm Edwards riding the foundation that Parcells put together.

Jets fans that sh*t on Parcells are spurned girlfriends.

 

Hardly.

 

Not just again, but always.  I NEVER liked Parcells pre-Jets.  While he was with the Jets, I tried to start liking him, and for a month or two I almost started liking him, then he showed his true colors, then quit on the team, and it was a done deal...I despise his ass.  Even if I had liked him before, I would have stopped for his quitting on the team for 4-5 games like a little pouty girl after Vinny went down in '99, then quitting for real following the season and sticking us with Groh and Bradway, yet staying around long enough to run off Belichick.  Another reason is that he cost the Jets Peyton Manning.  Peyton was set to come out following his Jr. season at UT.  His dad Archie asked Parcells for a guarantee that he would take Peyton with the #1 pick and not trade it away.  Parcells refused to give the guarantee and Peyton decided to stay in school  Therefore, eff Parcells.  He was a tease for Jets fans.  Promised us a lot, delivered not that much. 

 

Was he one of the 2-3 best Jets coaches ever?  Yes. Was he one of the best HCs in the NFL ever?  Yes.  Was he an a$$hole and totally selfish, self-absorbed jerk?  Yes, definitely.  Sue me, but I don't care for assholes or totally self-absorbed jerks, even if they are associated with the Jets.

[JoeKlecko]

Mangini knew about Favre's torn biceps.  The Jets kept it secret and that's why the league handed down a 6-figure fine.

 

Here's one of the articles:  

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2009/09/favre_told_ny_jets_he_was_hurt.html

 

"Subtle, just a yard off, two yards off, maybe a tad behind. The average person watching just didn't think -- and I'm not talking about when a guy is wide open; tight fits. Maybe I wanted to back shoulder throw a guy and I ended up leading a little bit, and the ball gets tipped and gets picked or something. I talked with Brian Schottenhemier, talked to Mike Tannenbaum, and my quarterback coach who now is the coordinator for Cleveland, and addressed that with him that I thought maybe I was doing more harm than good.

 

"They knew I had a torn biceps, which we backed off in practice. I took cortisone shots a couple times to try to relieve the pain. I started pressing. I was real receptive to (sitting). We felt like, after talking with each one of them, that it was best to just -- we'd come this far

-- to just finish it out. I had no qualms about having Kellen play, and that probably hasn't even been addressed before because I didn't think it would need to be addressed at the end of the season, but I just didn't feel confident because of this injury. So sure, I don't want to go through that and neither do the Vikings.''

 

 

I don't care what kind of lowlife Favre could be at times.  If it was just he said / she said, with him lying and the team denying it, the league wouldn't fine the team $125K.

 

In that case, Mangini lied through his teeth in the media too, because I remember reading articles where he claimed he didn't know that Favre was injured that badly and that Favre had hidden the injuries.  I never saw the article you quoted or anything else to the contrary.

[T0mShane]

I think it's the GM's job to bring in the players and, yes, the head coach puts together his team from there.

So out of those 90 players that the GM provided for Rex every year, how many of those who didn't make the team went on to have success somewhere else? Because unless that's what's happening, it's hard to find fault with who he kept. I don't recall any Danny Woodheads during Rex's time here.

The GM doesn't bring in all 90 players by himself, and Rex himself has discussed having a role in bringing players in on several occasions (John Conner, Bilal Powell for starters). That said, of the 144 guys that didn't make it, it's safe to assume that they weren't all useless, unless the scouting on the Jets was being done via dart board.

[T0mShane]

Hardly.

Not just again, but always. I NEVER liked Parcells pre-Jets. While he was with the Jets, I tried to start liking him, and for a month or two I almost started liking him, then he showed his true colors, then quit on the team, and it was a done deal...I despise his ass. Even if I had liked him before, I would have stopped for his quitting on the team for 4-5 games like a little pouty girl after Vinny went down in '99, then quitting for real following the season and sticking us with Groh and Bradway, yet staying around long enough to run off Belichick. Another reason is that he cost the Jets Peyton Manning. Peyton was set to come out following his Jr. season at UT. His dad Archie asked Parcells for a guarantee that he would take Peyton with the #1 pick and not trade it away. Parcells refused to give the guarantee and Peyton decided to stay in school Therefore, eff Parcells. He was a tease for Jets fans. Promised us a lot, delivered not that much.

Was he one of the 2-3 best Jets coaches ever? Yes. Was he one of the best HCs in the NFL ever? Yes. Was he an a$$hole and totally selfish, self-absorbed jerk? Yes, definitely. Sue me, but I don't care for assholes or totally self-absorbed jerks, even if they are associated with the Jets.

It's fine to say that Parcells was an egomaniacal A-hole, but you can't discount the impact he had on this godforsaken franchise. He laid the groundwork for almost a decade of relative prosperity, and his players remained the best players on the team for a long, long time.

Also, everybody associated with that Peyton story has debunked it--Archie, Peyton, and Parcells. Archie himself said that Peyton simply wanted to go back to school.

[Lizard King]

I think it's the GM's job to bring in the players and, yes, the head coach puts together his team from there.

So out of those 90 players that the GM provided for Rex every year, how many of those who didn't make the team went on to have success somewhere else? Because unless that's what's happening, it's hard to find fault with who he kept. I don't recall any Danny Woodheads during Rex's time here.

Were you being sarcastic, because Danny Woodhead is exactly one of those players that Rex let walk in 2010, who went on to run for almost 6 yards a carry and 5 TD. Anyone with cataracts could have seen that coming. If you are an offensive player, being on the Jets must be like purgatory.

[Sperm Edwards]

In that case, Mangini lied through his teeth in the media too, because I remember reading articles where he claimed he didn't know that Favre was injured that badly and that Favre had hidden the injuries.  I never saw the article you quoted or anything else to the contrary.

 

Mangini may not have been the model of honest disclosure while he was our head coach.  Consider his mentor.

[Sperm Edwards]

Not this again.

Jets record three years pre-Parcells: 6-10, 3-13, 1-15.

That's 10-38 cumulative.

Jets record three years with Parcells: 9-7, 12-4, 8-8.

That's 29-19 cumulative.

Jets three years post-Parcells: 9-7, 10-6, 9-7.

That's 28-20 cumulative, with horrible coaches Al Groh and Herm Edwards riding the foundation that Parcells put together.

Jets fans that sh*t on Parcells are spurned girlfriends.

 

And he got rid of those yucky other uniforms.

[slats]

And he got rid of those yucky other uniforms.

Possibly his greatest accomplishment.

[Scott Dierking]

I think it's the GM's job to bring in the players and, yes, the head coach puts together his team from there.

 

So out of those 90 players that the GM provided for Rex every year, how many of those who didn't make the team went on to have success somewhere else? Because unless that's what's happening, it's hard to find fault with who he kept. I don't recall any Danny Woodheads during Rex's time here.

Parcells won with Ray Lucas at QB. Ray Lucas. 

 

Sometimes you have to do with what you have. 

 

Now, one could say that Parcells did NOT win with Mirer at QB, and they would be right. And Parcells put himself in that situation., But, he was not so stubborn that he would not make a change to an unproven.

 

Rex has shown none of that player management ability. 

[Sperm Edwards]

Parcells won with Ray Lucas at QB. Ray Lucas. 

 

Sometimes you have to do with what you have. 

 

Now, one could say that Parcells did NOT win with Mirer at QB, and they would be right. And Parcells put himself in that situation., But, he was not so stubborn that he would not make a change to an unproven.

 

Rex has shown none of that player management ability. 

 

It is infuriating the way Rex has stuck with Sanchez.  But the situation with Parcells & Lucas was different.  Lucas may have been unproven but he was also one of "Parcells's guys" from NE.  And the reality is Mirer was even worse than Sanchez.  Yet Tuna stuck with Mirer until our record was 2-6 and we were effectively eliminated.  THEN he went to Lucas, one of "his" guys. 

[slats]

Parcells won with Ray Lucas at QB. Ray Lucas. 

 

Sometimes you have to do with what you have. 

 

Now, one could say that Parcells did NOT win with Mirer at QB, and they would be right. And Parcells put himself in that situation., But, he was not so stubborn that he would not make a change to an unproven.

 

Rex has shown none of that player management ability. 

That's the best example you have? Bill Parcells in his third head coaching job going .500 with Ray Lucas? Compelling.

Rex has made it to the AFC Championship Game with Mark Sanchez at the helm. Twice. And Lucas, at least statistically, was a better QB than Sanchez.

[Scott Dierking]

That's the best example you have? Bill Parcells in his third head coaching job going .500 with Ray Lucas? Compelling.

Rex has made it to the AFC Championship Game with Mark Sanchez at the helm. Twice. And Lucas, at least statistically, was a better QB than Sanchez.

He actually went 6-2 with Ray Lucas at QB. Pretty good example-and it is a Jet example.

 

You ask ANY scout, who has more ability from a QB standpoint between Marek Sanchez and Ray Lucas, and I promise practically all of them (except Ray's mom) will side on Sanchez. 

 

Parcells was able to get more out of players than Rex, by a long shot. He was adaptive, which Rex has not shown he can be.

 

You continually want to force hypotheticals where Rex needs to be spoon fed the best players to succeed. What a great coach that is

[Scott Dierking]

It is infuriating the way Rex has stuck with Sanchez.  But the situation with Parcells & Lucas was different.  Lucas may have been unproven but he was also one of "Parcells's guys" from NE.  And the reality is Mirer was even worse than Sanchez.  Yet Tuna stuck with Mirer until our record was 2-6 and we were effectively eliminated.  THEN he went to Lucas, one of "his" guys. 

But, he made the change. Rex has not shown he can even do that. It pains him.

 

The majority of Sanchez's failings are on him, but Rex and staff have to fit into that equation as well. Red-Yellow-Green is about the extent that they seem to work with him. Heck, Parcells converted Testaverde from a turnover machine to an efficient QB.

 

Can't we expect a little player maturation from Rex and staff. Remember, Rex is Sanchez's biggest fan.

[slats]

He actually went 6-2 with Ray Lucas at QB. Pretty good example-and it is a Jet example.

 

You ask ANY scout, who has more ability from a QB standpoint between Marek Sanchez and Ray Lucas, and I promise practically all of them (except Ray's mom) will side on Sanchez. 

 

Parcells was able to get more out of players than Rex, by a long shot. He was adaptive, which Rex has not shown he can be.

 

You continually want to force hypotheticals where Rex needs to be spoon fed the best players to succeed. What a great coach that is

Bill Parcells is in the HoF, and got no further with the Jets than Rex has.

[Scott Dierking]

Bill Parcells is in the HoF, and got no further with the Jets than Rex has.

With Parcells reaching the AFCCG did not seem to be such a coronation that doing it with Rex has seemed to be with some fans. With Parcells, it was opportunity missed. With Rex, it seems to have become the ultimate.

 

Don't settle for less!

 

And Bill is gone-as Rex should be.

[JoeKlecko]

It's fine to say that Parcells was an egomaniacal A-hole, but you can't discount the impact he had on this godforsaken franchise. He laid the groundwork for almost a decade of relative prosperity, and his players remained the best players on the team for a long, long time.

Also, everybody associated with that Peyton story has debunked it--Archie, Peyton, and Parcells. Archie himself said that Peyton simply wanted to go back to school.

 

I don't discount the positive impact he had on the franchise and the respect it gained (even if collaterally). 

 

I'll take your word for the Peyton story. I've never seen any debunking of it, but on the Jets board on which I was posting last year, someone brought that article up again,and not one person said that it had been debunked, so that's news to me.  That makes me feel a little bit better about Parcells and about missing out on Peyton.  Given the team's sorry ass history, I can't blame him for opting to stay in school rather than have to play for the Jets.

[JoeKlecko]

Mangini may not have been the model of honest disclosure while he was our head coach.  Consider his mentor.

 

True dat. 

[JoeKlecko]

It is infuriating the way Rex has stuck with Sanchez.  But the situation with Parcells & Lucas was different.  Lucas may have been unproven but he was also one of "Parcells's guys" from NE.  And the reality is Mirer was even worse than Sanchez.  Yet Tuna stuck with Mirer until our record was 2-6 and we were effectively eliminated.  THEN he went to Lucas, one of "his" guys. 

 

What really killed me about Vinny going down with the injury in the '99 opener is that the Jets had the game won.  Even though Tom Tupa looked like a girl throwing the ball, he played well in relief of Vinny that day and had he stayed at QB, the Jets would have won the game, but Parcells had to bring in Mirer, then stick with Mirer for what, 7 more games?  It was clear to see that Parcells went into a funk when Vinny was injured, something a tough guy like Parcells and a veteran supposedly "great" HC should never have done.  He even in a game or two lost track of the score and time left in the game and made glaringly bad decisions costing the Jets victory in those games.  Then to top it off, was the Detroit game with the infamous halfback option pass that sealed our fate.

 

Yes, Parcells was light years better than anyone the Jets had at HC since Weeb and brought in some solid players, but he also left a cap mess and bunch of older players.  While they provided a solid foundation in the short term (for a year or two), in the long run I think they held the team back.

 

The other thing I didn't like about Parcells is that he built his offense around Vinny Interceptaverde (who wasn't as good as Favre, but like Favre, never learned not to force the ball  into double coverage and was still making stupid rookie mistakes his last years in the league), CuMar (who while a solid citizen, hard worker, class act, and very good RB, was limited, and disappeared or choked in big games), and Keyshawn who I despised.  Even as well as they played and as nice as it was to win for a change, I had a hard time being a Jets fan during those years.

[JoeKlecko]

But, he made the change. Rex has not shown he can even do that. It pains him.

 

The majority of Sanchez's failings are on him, but Rex and staff have to fit into that equation as well. Red-Yellow-Green is about the extent that they seem to work with him. Heck, Parcells converted Testaverde from a turnover machine to an efficient QB.

 

Can't we expect a little player maturation from Rex and staff. Remember, Rex is Sanchez's biggest fan.

 

Yes, in '97 and '98, Parcells was able to control Vinny and get him to play within himself.  He was the only HC to do that as prior to '97 and from 2000 onward, Vinny reverted to previous form and was an interception machine. I do credit Parcells with that and often with getting a lot out of jags, but he also wasn't as adaptive as you paint him.  I remember on more than one occasion, Parcells only way of trying to motivate and reach players was with his sarcasm and needling.  Some players just don't respond positively to that kind of thing.  Several of them while he was with the Giants, and I think one or two with the Jets were the same way.  They went to other teams and did well with a different type of coaching, but never did anything for Parcells.

[Sperm Edwards]

But, he made the change. Rex has not shown he can even do that. It pains him.

 

The majority of Sanchez's failings are on him, but Rex and staff have to fit into that equation as well. Red-Yellow-Green is about the extent that they seem to work with him. Heck, Parcells converted Testaverde from a turnover machine to an efficient QB.

 

Can't we expect a little player maturation from Rex and staff. Remember, Rex is Sanchez's biggest fan.

 

Parcells had 15 years of head coaching experience by then.  Rex isn't going to be a HOF head coach.  He doesn't need to be; he just needs to be better than he's been.

 

Given his success on one side of the ball, related to strategy and thinking, I'd say he's capable (however likely or unlikely it is that he takes the next step).  He's not in the Herm class of coaches where he maybe could teach a little technique to DBs, and the rest was clownish fluff.  

 

Even the clown-stuff is different (to me).  Herm was a clown and is a clown and always will be a clown at all times; he cannot help it.  Conversely, Rex says clownish things & acts like a clown at times.  I think it amuses him.  That's my opinion.

 

Then there's Parcells, who also amused himself outwardly.  His way was by acting like a bigger douchebag than normal or by belittling his players.  Some players respond well to that, and some don't.  Some respond better to a coach who builds them up, and some become respond to this quasi-impunity by being lazy or undisciplined locker room cancers.

 

I wonder with some players - like Sanchez in particular - how much is just that's Rex's way (particularly when he's got no one else) or how much he actually believes in Sanchez.

[Sperm Edwards]

What really killed me about Vinny going down with the injury in the '99 opener is that the Jets had the game won.  Even though Tom Tupa looked like a girl throwing the ball, he played well in relief of Vinny that day and had he stayed at QB, the Jets would have won the game, but Parcells had to bring in Mirer, then stick with Mirer for what, 7 more games?  It was clear to see that Parcells went into a funk when Vinny was injured, something a tough guy like Parcells and a veteran supposedly "great" HC should never have done.  He even in a game or two lost track of the score and time left in the game and made glaringly bad decisions costing the Jets victory in those games.  Then to top it off, was the Detroit game with the infamous halfback option pass that sealed our fate.

 

Yes, Parcells was light years better than anyone the Jets had at HC since Weeb and brought in some solid players, but he also left a cap mess and bunch of older players.  While they provided a solid foundation in the short term (for a year or two), in the long run I think they held the team back.

 

The other thing I didn't like about Parcells is that he built his offense around Vinny Interceptaverde (who wasn't as good as Favre, but like Favre, never learned not to force the ball  into double coverage and was still making stupid rookie mistakes his last years in the league), CuMar (who while a solid citizen, hard worker, class act, and very good RB, was limited, and disappeared or choked in big games), and Keyshawn who I despised.  Even as well as they played and as nice as it was to win for a change, I had a hard time being a Jets fan during those years.

 

Parcells had a massive ego and had to show he was "right" is why.  He was the one who dumped Foley and replaced him with Mirer.  So since he was the one to bring in Mirer, he couldn't very well not use him after Vinny went down.

 

And obviously-true comments like that about Martin will get a lot of people here calling you names.  Hater.  Stupid.  Moron.  Idiot.  Dumbass.  And I'm trying to remember the multitude of things I've been called in the 10+ years I've been posting on Jets sites when referring to Mr. Non-playmaker.  I've lost track.  

[JoeKlecko]

Parcells had a massive ego and had to show he was "right" is why.  He was the one who dumped Foley and replaced him with Mirer.  So since he was the one to bring in Mirer, he couldn't very well not use him after Vinny went down.

 

And obviously-true comments like that about Martin will get a lot of people here calling you names.  Hater.  Stupid.  Moron.  Idiot.  Dumbass.  And I'm trying to remember the multitude of things I've been called in the 10+ years I've been posting on Jets sites when referring to Mr. Non-playmaker.  I've lost track.  

 

You're right on both accounts.  

 

I've been called worse before for daring to criticize CuMar.    Don't get me wrong, I liked him, just sometimes have a hard time understanding why so many Jets fans are so rabid about him, but I guess when we've had so few players to be proud of and get excited about over the years, and especially when they're class acts and consummate professionals, it's understandable why people would love him so much. 

 

My take on him is that he wasn't a  threat to take it to the house from anywhere on the field.  He was way too big a part of the Jets offense on one hand, but I guess that was better than risking Vinny throwing the ball more.  He had to line up too deep in the backfield to see where the holes were, and was so slow that before he got to the LOS the hole would close and he'd often wind up losing a yard or two or have no gain.  I'll bet if statistics were kept on it, he'd have the most negative rushes of any RB in NFL history.  He had no ability to break tackles and would often leave yards on the ground because he went down so easily or ran out of bounds to avoid being hit.  His cutting back was some kind of compulsion.  I can't tell you how many times he'd have an open field ahead of him, would be at least 5 yards away from the closest defender behind him, and rather than just continuing to run straight, he'd cut back and allow a tackler to take him down.  He drove me crazy.  He was very good at everything, but great at nothing, except for staying healthy.  He made the Jets offense very predictable and somewhat plodding, and easier to defend because they didn't have to worry about his taking it to the house from 70-80 yards.

[Smashmouth]

You're right on both accounts.  

 

I've been called worse before for daring to criticize CuMar.    Don't get me wrong, I liked him, just sometimes have a hard time understanding why so many Jets fans are so rabid about him, but I guess when we've had so few players to be proud of and get excited about over the years, and especially when they're class acts and consummate professionals, it's understandable why people would love him so much. 

 

My take on him is that he wasn't a  threat to take it to the house from anywhere on the field.  He was way too big a part of the Jets offense on one hand, but I guess that was better than risking Vinny throwing the ball more.  He had to line up too deep in the backfield to see where the holes were, and was so slow that before he got to the LOS the hole would close and he'd often wind up losing a yard or two or have no gain.  I'll bet if statistics were kept on it, he'd have the most negative rushes of any RB in NFL history.  He had no ability to break tackles and would often leave yards on the ground because he went down so easily or ran out of bounds to avoid being hit.  His cutting back was some kind of compulsion.  I can't tell you how many times he'd have an open field ahead of him, would be at least 5 yards away from the closest defender behind him, and rather than just continuing to run straight, he'd cut back and allow a tackler to take him down.  He drove me crazy.  He was very good at everything, but great at nothing, except for staying healthy.  He made the Jets offense very predictable and somewhat plodding, and easier to defend because they didn't have to worry about his taking it to the house from 70-80 yards.

 

Klecko your taking the Cmart stuff a bit too far IMO. While he was never a threat to take it to the house he was always solid and he was NOT one of those negative yardage backs. I think the worst negative yardage back was Barry Sanders , he was never the type of back to shut down a game in the 4th Quarter he was a back who would have 19 carries for 25 yards and one carry for 80. While he was an incredible talent he's not the kind of back to rely on to shut down a game like Emmitt Smith used to do on a regular basis (probably due to the best OL in History) . Anyway I think Martin was a solid back and back when Vinny played teams did respect him and open things up for the passing game. What I think really hurt Vinny's comeback after the achillies was the loss of HIS security blanket Keyshawn Johnson say what you will about Keyshawn but he was a tough son of a bitch who played fearlessly over the middle and always made the tough catch to move the chains. Key and Chrebet were the Perfect combination of Posession receiver and Slot and were very hard to stop in 98 if not for some really freak occurances in the Bronco AFCCG we win the SB that year IMO. I think the key (no pun Intended)  to the Jets offense was Keyshawn and the overall perfect balance they had. Honestly if that team would have kept those players in place, and drafted a REAL TE, they would have been unstoppable but reports said Groh did not like Keyshawn. oh well 

[JoeKlecko]

Klecko your taking the Cmart stuff a bit too far IMO. While he was never a threat to take it to the house he was always solid and he was NOT one of those negative yardage backs. I think the worst negative yardage back was Barry Sanders , he was never the type of back to shut down a game in the 4th Quarter he was a back who would have 19 carries for 25 yards and one carry for 80. While he was an incredible talent he's not the kind of back to rely on to shut down a game like Emmitt Smith used to do on a regular basis (probably due to the best OL in History) . Anyway I think Martin was a solid back and back when Vinny played teams did respect him and open things up for the passing game. What I think really hurt Vinny's comeback after the achillies was the loss of HIS security blanket Keyshawn Johnson say what you will about Keyshawn but he was a tough son of a bitch who played fearlessly over the middle and always made the tough catch to move the chains. Key and Chrebet were the Perfect combination of Posession receiver and Slot and were very hard to stop in 98 if not for some really freak occurances in the Bronco AFCCG we win the SB that year IMO. I think the key (no pun Intended)  to the Jets offense was Keyshawn and the overall perfect balance they had. Honestly if that team would have kept those players in place, and drafted a REAL TE, they would have been unstoppable but reports said Groh did not like Keyshawn. oh well 

 

Haven't seen you post in a while. Good to have you back.

 

We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this one.  Perhaps I am being too hard on him, but that's what I think about him.  I'm not saying that teams didn't respect him or that he wasn't any good.  Opposing Ds had to play disciplined and stay in their lanes, if not, he could kill them with cutbacks.  I'm sure he did help open things up for Vinny.  He was a good receiver, blocker and rarely fumbled (but when he did, it seemed like they always came at a critical moment).  That may not be accurate, but I remember that is the perception that I and many other Jets fans had at the time.

 

With regard to his NOT being a negative yardage back, go back and look at individual game stats.  In a typical game, he'd have 25-30 rushes, 3-4 10-20 yard runs, 10 2-3 yard runs, 4-5 runs for negative yardage, 3-4 runs for no gain, and the rest would be 4-9 yard runs.  He'd still come out with 100 yards or more (or close to it), but all those carries for no or negative yardage hurt.  Plus I always felt like he easily could have had another 20-30 yards per game if he hadn't gone down so easily or run out of bounds so much.  For as good as he was, he only won the rushing crown once, and that was following an offseason when his own mother said he frequently didn't run hard enough.  He admitted that she was right, then ironically won the rushing crown that following season.  Coincidence?  I think not.  I think that was part of how he stayed healthy.  He avoided taking big hits by shortening runs by going out of bounds rather than fighting for an extra 3-4 yards.  He also was tackled easier than about any RB I've ever seen.

 

If Barry was worse, it was because he had an awful OL and offense, and was always having to make something on his own.  He carried those Lion teams.  I'd take Barry over CuMar every time.

 

Also, don't forget it was his fumble or fumbles vs Denver in '98 that killed the Jets.  It was also his fumble in the season opener vs NE on the play that caused Vinny to tear his achilles.

 

Keyshawn was tough over the middle, but he had to be good for something. He sure didn't have any speed, and he had such a big mouth, he had to try to do something to back up his talk.  He had great hands and was a gamer, I'll give him that.  Chrebet and he did make a good pair (but for that matter Chrebet and any other WR would have made a great pair), yet Keyshawn gave Chrebet little or no respect. Keyshawn would have been a perfect player for Rex.  Rex would have loved his fire, Key's mouth wouldn't have fazed Rex at all, and Key frequently had to sky or dive to catch Vinny's throws, and he could have done the same for Sanchez.