Jets All-Time Underrated / Overrated

[Kleckineau]

4th quarter, Super Bowl, one second on the clock, your team is down by 5, ball is on the 3 yard line, the QB has been picked off 3 times already so HC is definitely calling a run.

The defense knows its a run.

What back would you want for that scenario?

Curtis Martin wouldn't even make my top 50 list for that carry.

I would probably go with Earl Campbell.

[kelticwizard]

This is a conversation about overrated/underrated Jets players.  It turned into bashing Curtis Martin and his HOF career because I said he's underrated by many Jets fans (which has proven to be true based on the responses to that statement). 

 

Absolutely.  If there is one thing you have proven beyond doubt, it is that Curtis Martin is underrated by a lot of Jets fans.

 

Jets fans don't stick up for their heroes.  They dump on Curtis Martin, they bash Joe Namath, they put down Freeman McNeil.  People in other cities don't do this, only Jets fans.

 

My question is-how did they miss Don Maynard?  How did he escape the attacks?  Because there seems to be some fans willing to run down just about anyone who ever gave the Jets fans something to cheer about.

[JustInFudge]

4th quarter, Super Bowl, one second on the clock, your team is down by 5, ball is on the 3 yard line, the QB has been picked off 3 times already so HC is definitely calling a run.

The defense knows its a run.

What back would you want for that scenario?

Curtis Martin wouldn't even make my top 50 list for that carry.

I would probably go with Earl Campbell.

 

No offense, but thats not exactly the end all be all scenario for a RB.  That scenario would heavily weigh on your OL just as much as your RB.  Hell, I might pick a FB or the Fridge Perry or Tim Tebow in that scenario.  lol  

 

Absolutely.  If there is one thing you have proven beyond doubt, it is that Curtis Martin is underrated by a lot of Jets fans.

 

Jets fans don't stick up for their heroes.  They dump on Curtis Martin, they bash Joe Namath, they put down Freeman McNeil.  People in other cities don't do this, only Jets fans.

 

My question is-how did they miss Don Maynard?  How did he escape the attacks?  Because there seems to be some fans willing to run down just about anyone who ever gave the Jets fans something to cheer about.

 

Its an interesting behavior among our fanbase.  Its like you get street cred from cool guys like TomShane if you just bash, bash and more bash.  If you actually enjoy something about the Jets or support a player, you're a homer and an idiot.  Very weird indeed.

[The Crusher]

4th quarter, Super Bowl, one second on the clock, your team is down by 5, ball is on the 3 yard line, the QB has been picked off 3 times already so HC is definitely calling a run.

The defense knows its a run.

What back would you want for that scenario?

Curtis Martin wouldn't even make my top 50 list for that carry.

I would probably go with Earl Campbell.

 

Danny Woodhead

[JoeKlecko]

What you just described is a player playing "soft", and Parcells wouldn't have such a player on his team, let alone a featured back.

 

As stated before, more than any other coach, Parcells went with "his" guys, guys who would run through a wall for him.  That was his test to stay on the team.  Near the end of his time with the Giants, the newspapers started to come out with how much of a bully the then-popular Parcells really was.  He drove people to extremes.  He was a counterpoint to Bill Walsh, the scholarly coach in San Francisco who beat teams with innovations .  Parcells was the New York/Jersey truck driver type who doesn't want to know about excuses, he just wants to see his men out there killing themselves.

 

You must remember that Parcells had Curtis in NE for his first two years, then obtained him as soon as possible when he came over to the Jets.  He loved the guy.  The idea that Parcells, of all coaches, would put up with a RB who didn't fight for extra yards or bother to break tackles because it isn't in the runner's nature is not conceivable.   Parcells?

 

Go back and watch the games.  Your eyes will tell you the truth of the matter rather than what you "think" Parcels would or would not have accepted.

[JoeKlecko]

Walter Payton once had 32 yard on 18 carries in the playoffs, his team won because the other team didnt score.  He also had a game where he had 38 yards on 14 carries and -2 yards on 1 reception, his team lost.  HE'S TERRIBLE!!!!

 

Barry Sanders once had a playoff game where he went -1 yards on 13 attempts and his team lost.  HE'S THE WORST PLAYER EVER!!!!

 

Ever seen LT's playoff stats?  WORST THING TO EVER TAKE THE FIELD. 

 

The Bus?  9 carries, 8 yards in a playoff loss.  Do I need to say it?  HE SUCKS!!!!!

 

Eric Dickerson had an amazing game in the playoffs, 10 carries, 16 yards.  His team lost.  PURE POOPOO!!!!

 

Jim Brown vs. the Giants in the playoffs - 7 carries, 8 yards. HORRIBLE!!!!

 

Marshall Faulk?  9 carries 25 yards in a playoff loss.  14 carries for 24 yards in a playoff loss.  TERRIBLE!!!!

 

Earl Campbell - 17 carries, 15 yards in a playoff loss.  WTF?????

 

The difference is that you're talking about isolated occurrences for those players, it happening once or twice; with CuMar it happened frequently if not every big game he played in.

[JoeKlecko]

Absolutely.  If there is one thing you have proven beyond doubt, it is that Curtis Martin is underrated by a lot of Jets fans.

 

Jets fans don't stick up for their heroes.  They dump on Curtis Martin, they bash Joe Namath, they put down Freeman McNeil.  People in other cities don't do this, only Jets fans.

 

My question is-how did they miss Don Maynard?  How did he escape the attacks?  Because there seems to be some fans willing to run down just about anyone who ever gave the Jets fans something to cheer about.

 

Utter rubbish.  He's proved nothing.  For a player to be underrated, he actually has to be a better player than people give him credit for.  He isn't.  The stats and facts say that he was a very good RB who had exception durability and played for a long time.

[Kleckineau]

Danny Woodhead

Hah!

If I had to guess I would've thought you'd go Roger Vick.

[JoeKlecko]

No offense, but thats not exactly the end all be all scenario for a RB.  That scenario would heavily weigh on your OL just as much as your RB.  Hell, I might pick a FB or the Fridge Perry or Tim Tebow in that scenario.  lol  

 

 

Its an interesting behavior among our fanbase.  Its like you get street cred from cool guys like TomShane if you just bash, bash and more bash.  If you actually enjoy something about the Jets or support a player, you're a homer and an idiot.  Very weird indeed.

 

Not true at all.  It's not limited to just Jets fans, nor is it true about enjoying or liking something about the Jets or a Jets player.  It's called being realistic and not a dreamy-eyed, hero-worshipping, homer.  To many Jets fans if someone dares say something critical, then you aren't a real fan.  It's like we're supposed to put on blinders, or not believe what our eyes tell us, and listen instead to what media hype says or just believe that our eyes and mind are playing tricks on us.  Every player in the NFL has limitations.  They are human, make mistakes, and there are areas of their play where they aren't as good as in other areas.

 

CuMar was a very good RB and football player, but imo he was never great and doesn't deserve to be in the HOF or mentioned in the same sentence with guys like Sayers, Payton, Sanders, Dickerson, Riggins, Campbell and some others.

[Kleckineau]

No offense, but thats not exactly the end all be all scenario for a RB.  That scenario would heavily weigh on your OL just as much as your RB.  Hell, I might pick a FB or the Fridge Perry or Tim Tebow in that scenario.  lol  

 

 

 

No offense taken. I said back, not lineman or QB and if I am HC I wouldnt even let C.M. on the field for that one play.

(#2 choice would be Riggins.)

[JustInFudge]

The difference is that you're talking about isolated occurrences for those players, it happening once or twice; with CuMar it happened frequently if not every big game he played in.

 

Oh really?  Please elaborate. 

 

Utter rubbish.  He's proved nothing.  For a player to be underrated, he actually has to be a better player than people give him credit for.  He isn't.  The stats and facts say that he was a very good RB who had exception durability and played for a long time.

 

^^^^^^ proof

[#27TheDominator]

I'm probably further into the compiler camp than the superstar camp, but IMO Curtis Martin is a deserved HOF'er.  Where I get all fired up is in the all-time greatest debate. IMO he can't touch Brown, Payton or Simpson.  Guys like Sanders and Campbell (my favorite) had such strange careers or were on unusual teams that you could at least try to make a case. FWIW, there is no doubt that McNeil is overrated especially in comparision to Martin.  The guy listing him as overrated is an idiot.  NEVER less than 4 ypc for a season.  Yeah he lead the league in rushing with under 800 - it was a strike year, moron.  He averaged like 95 yards per game that year.  He also had a 200 and 100 yard game back to back in the playoffs until the Dolphins muddied the field. Guy was a horse. 

 

Earl Campbell - 17 carries, 15 yards in a playoff loss.  WTF?????

 

I remember that game!  ******* crooked Steelers!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gCFx5jC_q4

 

Go ahead and make the case that Curtis Martin is as good as Earl Campbell, Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, Marshall Faulk, or Jim Brown. I'll give you Jerome Bettis, for whatever that's worth.

 

I'd take him over Dickerson. Using the eye test of course.  Never liked that high kneed goggle wearing freak.

 

4th quarter, Super Bowl, one second on the clock, your team is down by 5, ball is on the 3 yard line, the QB has been picked off 3 times already so HC is definitely calling a run.

The defense knows its a run.

What back would you want for that scenario?

Curtis Martin wouldn't even make my top 50 list for that carry.

I would probably go with Earl Campbell.

EARL!

No offense, but thats not exactly the end all be all scenario for a RB.  That scenario would heavily weigh on your OL just as much as your RB.  Hell, I might pick a FB or the Fridge Perry or Tim Tebow in that scenario.  lol  

 

Touchdown Tony Paige.

[T0mShane]

Its an interesting behavior among our fanbase. Its like you get street cred from cool guys like TomShane if you just bash, bash and more bash. If you actually enjoy something about the Jets or support a player, you're a homer and an idiot. Very weird indeed.

You're a rodeo clown and should travel with a barrel. The Jets have had so few great players in their history that some of their thirsty-ass trick-ho fans try to staple the "great" label onto "good" players like Victor Green and Santonio Holmes and Kyle Clifton and Bart Scott, and especially Curtis Martin. It's almost sad.

[T0mShane]

I'm probably further into the compiler camp than the superstar camp, but IMO Curtis Martin is a deserved HOF'er. Where I get all fired up is in the all-time greatest debate. IMO he can't touch Brown, Payton or Simpson. Guys like Sanders and Campbell (my favorite) had such strange careers or were on unusual teams that you could at least try to make a case. FWIW, there is no doubt that McNeil is overrated especially in comparision to Martin. The guy listing him as overrated is an idiot. NEVER less than 4 ypc for a season. Yeah he lead the league in rushing with under 800 - it was a strike year, moron. He averaged like 95 yards per game that year. He also had a 200 and 100 yard game back to back in the playoffs until the Dolphins muddied the field. Guy was a horse.

I remember that game! ******* crooked Steelers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gCFx5jC_q4

I'd take him over Dickerson. Using the eye test of course. Never liked that high kneed goggle wearing freak.

EARL!

Touchdown Tony Paige.

Dickerson was Adrian Peterson, you scamp.

[kelticwizard]

...Touchdown Tony Paige.

For a one-time shot, you might not be that far off.

[#27TheDominator]

You're a rodeo clown and should travel with a barrel. The Jets have had so few great players in their history that some of their thirsty-ass trick-go fans try to staple the "great" label onto "good" players like Victor Green and Santonio Holmes and Kyle Clifton and Bart Scott, and especially Curtis Martin. It's almost sad.

 

Eh.  Curtis Martin had a GREAT career.  He was never the best back in the NFL, but he was usually up there.  Obviously the others you mention are not in that discussion.

[Bleedin Green]

Oh really?  Please elaborate. 

 

 

^^^^^^ proof

 

Yeah, I'm still chuckling at the thought of a Penningtologist making such an argument against any other player to ever step out onto a football field; all in the very same thread no less.

[The Crusher]

Hah!

If I had to guess I would've thought you'd go Roger Vick.

 

 

Being honest.  That little shifty prick would have a good a chance as anyone. 

[#27TheDominator]

Hah!

If I had to guess I would've thought you'd go Roger Vick.

 

Dwayne Crutchfield!

 

Dickerson was Adrian Peterson, you scamp.

 

Ugh.  Gross.  I admit I am biased.  He looked like a nerd and I was a Lawrence McCutcheon man, myself. 

 

For a one-time shot, you might not be that far off.

 

Icky Woods, FTMFW!

[kelticwizard]

......  For a player to be underrated, he [Curtis Martin] actually has to be a better player than people give him credit for.  He isn't.  The stats and facts say that he was a very good RB who had exception durability and played for a long time.

Not to get personal, but foremost among the underraters is yourself.  You're the one claiming he regularly went out of bounds to avoid contact and never fought for the extra yard. 

 

Incidentally, I have one question.  You claim that Martin was just a good back, not a great one.  Being as we both agree that Martin was not a big breakaway threat à la LaDainian Tomlinson, what makes him a good back worthy of starting for a long time?  I mean, if he doesn't do the long gainer, and you feel he doesn't break tackles and he also runs out of bounds to avoid getting hit, why do you even elevate him to "good back" status?  The fact that he doesn't miss games?

 

Apparently you think a good back is one just follows Woody Allen's advice:

 

"Eighty percent of anything is just showing up".

[Matt39]

I mean, if Thomas Jones played his entire career in NY- he might be a borderline HOF'er. And he wasnt a great runner by any stretch.

[Bugg]

Walter Payton once had 32 yard on 18 carries in the playoffs, his team won because the other team didnt score.  He also had a game where he had 38 yards on 14 carries and -2 yards on 1 reception, his team lost.  HE'S TERRIBLE!!!!

 

Barry Sanders once had a playoff game where he went -1 yards on 13 attempts and his team lost.  HE'S THE WORST PLAYER EVER!!!!

 

Ever seen LT's playoff stats?  WORST THING TO EVER TAKE THE FIELD. 

 

The Bus?  9 carries, 8 yards in a playoff loss.  Do I need to say it?  HE SUCKS!!!!!

 

Eric Dickerson had an amazing game in the playoffs, 10 carries, 16 yards.  His team lost.  PURE POOPOO!!!!

 

Jim Brown vs. the Giants in the playoffs - 7 carries, 8 yards. HORRIBLE!!!!

 

Marshall Faulk?  9 carries 25 yards in a playoff loss.  14 carries for 24 yards in a playoff loss.  TERRIBLE!!!!

 

Earl Campbell - 17 carries, 15 yards in a playoff loss.  WTF?????

Blowing out the candles of those guys top make Martin's shine brighter in comparison is a pretty weak argument. I'll grant you he was better than Dickerson and Bettis.

 

Martin was a very servicable and durable back. He was fortunate statistically to play for one coach who aigned and overpaid him, and another who was a dope who slavishly gave him carries. He was ridiculoulsy overpaid and that cap room cost the Jets.

[Sperm Edwards]

4th quarter, Super Bowl, one second on the clock, your team is down by 5, ball is on the 3 yard line, the QB has been picked off 3 times already so HC is definitely calling a run.

The defense knows its a run.

What back would you want for that scenario?

Curtis Martin wouldn't even make my top 50 list for that carry.

I would probably go with Earl Campbell.

 

One game? How about try one season.  Or try 2-3 consecutive seasons (a common window of opportunity).

 

Who would really say that for 1 season if they could take anybody they'd take Curtis Martin? Nobody who wants to win a superbowl.  He had great totals but he was not a great RB.  And we used to argue here about him running out of bounds at the time and his blindly-loyal fans used to say how smart it was of him (which it was, money-wise, for Martin).  It is nonsense that he used to always run into contact to maybe get an extra yard or so instead of stepping out of bounds.

 

His best season of 2004? He finished with almost 4.6 ypc, largely thanks to our cakewalk schedule.  But how did he do against the actually decent defenses?

• SD 3.7 ypc, 2 TD (and a fumble)
• Buf 3.5 ypc, 0 TD
• NE 3.5 ypc, 0 TD
• Buf 3.5 ypc, 0 TD
• Bal 4.2 ypc, 2 TD (though his atrocious running in the 2nd half, with a dozen 0-2 yard carries while protecting a lead, was as much of a reason as any for why we lost.  And with the sized holes he saw, a more dangerous runner gets another 30+ yards on the day)
• Pit 3.0 ypc, 0 TD
• NE 2.5 ypc, 0 TD
• SD 3.7 ypc, 0 TD
• PIt 4.1 ypc, 0 TD (though this is laughable that stats made him look halfway-decent; Martin was awful & averaged 3.0ypc when the D didn't just let him run for a little on draw plays where we needed 20 yards, which was vintage Martin compiling).

And this was easily Martin's very best season as a pro.  Meanwhile he was eating up (in today's cap dollars) Adrian Peterson type of cap space.

 

Great number totals? Absolutely.

Great runner? Absolutely not.

 

Someone like AP is a great runner.  A totally different class of RB above the likes of Curtis Martin no matter what his career totals are.

[Matt39]

Curtis Martin better than Eric Dickerson? How?

[Sperm Edwards]

Curtis Martin better than Eric Dickerson? How?

 

Something something Parcells blew 1/7 of the entire team's salary cap on him something something.  That means he's better.

[Bugg]

Curtis Martin better than Eric Dickerson? How?

Look, by my eyeballs and by stats Dickerson was on his best day better than Martin was on his. Martin employed some contract chincanery to get out of NE and get to the Jets. Dickerson bascailly twice decided he didn't want to play with his team and turned into a jerk. Think the way you handle yourself does count for something. Whining about your contract or what ever BS gripe  is crap, Dickerson did that a lot.Martin, whate ver else you can say about him, was inarguably a gentleman.

[JoeKlecko]

You're a rodeo clown and should travel with a barrel. The Jets have had so few great players in their history that some of their thirsty-ass trick-ho fans try to staple the "great" label onto "good" players like Victor Green and Santonio Holmes and Kyle Clifton and Bart Scott, and especially Curtis Martin. It's almost sad.

 

Almost?  I understand why it happens, but imo it's still very sad.

[JoeKlecko]

Not to get personal, but foremost among the underraters is yourself.  You're the one claiming he regularly went out of bounds to avoid contact and never fought for the extra yard. 

 

Incidentally, I have one question.  You claim that Martin was just a good back, not a great one.  Being as we both agree that Martin was not a big breakaway threat à la LaDainian Tomlinson, what makes him a good back worthy of starting for a long time?  I mean, if he doesn't do the long gainer, and you feel he doesn't break tackles and he also runs out of bounds to avoid getting hit, why do you even elevate him to "good back" status?  The fact that he doesn't miss games?

 

Apparently you think a good back is one just follows Woody Allen's advice:

 

"Eighty percent of anything is just showing up".

 

To make things easy on you, I went back and copied part of what I posted to you in a response:

 

 I didn't say that CuMar "dogged it" in practice, didn't work really hard to stay in tip-top shape, didn't work at other aspects of his game, like not fumbling, his blocking and blitz pickups, receiving, etc.  Parcells was all about not beating yourself and was pretty conservative on offense. He wasn't big on taking a lot of risks.  CuMar was a workhorse, he played through pain, he was a class act and solid citizen, he rarely fumbled, and he did everything well except fight for extra yards and excel at breaking tackles.  

 

 

Translation:  CuMar was the consummate professional...he worked hard in practice, worked on his blocking and blitz pickups, had an almost legendary difficult offseason training regimen, was a good receiver, was always in the lineup, played through pain (which many don't or won't), and put in a workhorse effort with lots of carries, never complained, was circumspect when speaking to the media, and never in trouble with the law.  In other words, he was the consummate professional.  That doesn't make him a "great" RB, however.  It means he had great character to go along with being very good at almost every aspect of the game.  He could be counted on not to screw things up.  In that alone, he was the perfect RB for Parcells.  You yourself said that Parcells liked to play things close to the vest with a short passing game, pounding the rock, etc.  Parcells preached not turning the ball over and not beating yourself.  CuMar was thus perfect for Parcells in that regard.

 

Listen, I didn't say that CuMar intentionally didn't fight for extra yardage because he was lazy.  Each RB has his own style of running.  Some are pounders, some are slashers, some are scatbacks, some are cutback runners, others North-South runners.  Some are speed backs.  I think that CuMar's style was just that he didn't have that instinct or style to be one of those backs who fights for extra yardage and who tries to pound the defense.  Generally, those types of backs have shorter careers, as they take more pounding and big hits themselves.  Maybe CuMar's priority was playing longer than the average RB, so he adapted a different style of running, where he could stay healthy.  If so, I can understand that, and can't necessarily blame him.  Every player has to play in the way that he sees fit.  It's just that that isn't the style of RB I like, and imo it's not the style of most, if not all of the great backs.  It may have been an unconscious decision on his part.  I just know that after his mother made that comment in 2004, CuMar ran harder and better than he had in any of his previous years with the Jets.  

 

I also know that he picked up a TON of his yardage on 3rd and longs under both Hackett and Schotty that padded his stats a lot.  Take that away, and I don't think as many people as do think he's a great back and I don't think he makes the HOF.

.

[JoeKlecko]

Yeah, I'm still chuckling at the thought of a Penningtologist making such an argument against any other player to ever step out onto a football field; all in the very same thread no less.

 

Still being a dick I see.

 

I didn't say that Pennington was a great QB, just that he gave it his all, did the best he could and deserved respect.  You hate him and admit it.  By definition, haters and hate are irrational.  You ought to be able to figure out the rest.

 

As for being in the same thread, this is the thread for over and underrated Jets, numbnuts.  You're just making yourself look more and more stupid and more and more like an ass.

[JoeKlecko]

Curtis Martin better than Eric Dickerson? How?

 

Exactly. That's the most bizarre and flat out ridiculous statement I've seen in this thread.  Curtis Martin couldn't carry Eric Dickerson's jock on the football field.  He undoubtedly has better character and is a nicer person, but better RB?  Absolutely not!!!

[Matt39]

The negativity surrounding Chad and Curtis really should all be sent Herman Edwards way. Jordan should have been getting carries. Hackett should have never been hired.

[Bleedin Green]

Still being a dick I see.

 

I didn't say that Pennington was a great QB, just that he gave it his all, did the best he could and deserved respect.  You hate him and admit it.  By definition, haters and hate are irrational.  You ought to be able to figure out the rest.

 

As for being in the same thread, this is the thread for over and underrated Jets, numbnuts.  You're just making yourself look more and more stupid and more and more like an ass.

 

Oh sweet irony.  You do realize that you consistently feel the need to rant on like a potty-mouthed 6 year old who just learned how to use naughty words, all while trying to let the other poster know how horrible of a person they supposedly are compared to your high and mighty self, any time someone dares disagree with you in a football-related discussion?

 

The point is simple, your arguments about two different players occurring within the same thread are 100% contradictory of each other.  Sorry if that's such an unforgivable statement to make, but that reality is not the fault of anyone but yourself.  And I hate to have to be the one to break this to you, but dismissing an argument with no actual basis for doing so, simply because you say it should be, doesn't really help your position.  I'm also not quite sure someone who makes a post like this is really qualified to judge hate or rationality.

[Bleedin Green]

The negativity surrounding Chad and Curtis really should all be sent Herman Edwards way. Jordan should have been getting carries. Hackett should have never been hired.

 

Oh yeah, Herm was a totally useless dipsh*t, but that doesn't magically make Chad better than he was.  Just like Sanchez sucking ass doesn't transform Schotty into a competent coach or vice versa.  It's entirely possible for more than one person to suck at their jobs at the same time, completely independent of one another.  In the case of the Jets, it's actually quite a common scenario.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

I will never forgive Curtis for the fumble in the first game of 99 when Vinny got hurt. We were winning the SB that year if not for that fumble. Untouched, fumbled, season over.

[Matt39]

Oh yeah, Herm was a totally useless dipsh*t, but that doesn't magically make Chad better than he was.  Just like Sanchez sucking ass doesn't transform Schotty into a competent coach or vice versa.  It's entirely possible for more than one person to suck at their jobs at the same time, completely independent of one another.  In the case of the Jets, it's actually quite a common scenario.

 

Chad did suck. He was good in 2002, though. Saying though if Hackett is never hired, Chad maybe never gets a shot as Vinny probably stays on for a bit