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Maxman
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The 49ers stuck by Smith for a long time and were able to put themselves in that position because of the weapons the put around Smith. One has something to do with the other.

 

 

No.  They built an monstrous team around Smith that was able to mask his deficiencies.  They put an offensive system into place that minimized his importance.  Additionally, even in the most miserable stretches of his career, Smith has never been the turnover machine that Sanchez has.  And after all that they still actively searched for a replacement, and when they found one they ditched him at the earliest convenience. 

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No.  They built an monstrous team around Smith that was able to mask his deficiencies.  They put an offensive system into place that minimized his importance.  Additionally, even in the most miserable stretches of his career, Smith has never been the turnover machine that Sanchez has.  And after all that they still actively searched for a replacement, and when they found one they ditched him at the earliest convenience.

That's different from what I said "putting weapons around Smith"? Smith didn't win.

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I'm going 2. 

 

Kellen Clemens, Mark Brunell, Erik Ainge, Kevin O'Connell, Greg McElroy, Tim Tebow, Matt Simms, David Garrard...It's like they're not even trying to unseat Mark.  

I get pissed on for supporting Sanchez, but look at what we've done to address the position.  As bad as he is, they've found statistically worse players for him to "compete" with. 

 

 

I agree.  I really can't even hate the kid anymore, I just wait for the day somebody better comes along.  

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That's different from what I said "putting weapons around Smith"? Smith didn't win.

 

 

My point is that it is impractical to build an uber team around an average (Smith) or terrible (Sanchez) quarterback.  Teams that succeed with little help from or in spite of their quarterbacks like the 2011 49ers or 2009 Jets have expiration dates. 

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My point is that it is impractical to build an uber team around an average (Smith) or terrible (Sanchez) quarterback.  Teams that succeed with little help from or in spite of their quarterbacks like the 2011 49ers or 2009 Jets have expiration dates. 

 

There is nothing impractical about building an "uber team" around an "average (or worse)" QB.

in 2011, the 49ers went to the NFC championship game with Alex Smith.  The following year, they went to the big dance because they have been building their OL and defense for years and years. 

 

It helps when you can find your starting running back (Frank Gore) in the 3rd round, and his primary back-up in the 4th...and then continue to add to the position (despite "looking set") by getting yet another back in the 2nd round (LaMichael James) the following year, and then the RB of the future in Marcus Lattimore the draft after that.  They've been a run-first team for five years now and actually draft RBs every year.  hmmm.

 

It also helps when you can find starting OL (Alex Boone) from the UDFA pile, and maintain a nasty defense from high draft picks that actually hit.  I would say the Niners can win because of the team they've built through the draft...the depth they have...and their recent success in "hitting" on high draft picks. Colin Kaepernick or not, they have a team built to win, and survive injuries.  I'd say they have the expiration date of a Twinkie, and their only real challenge now will be to fend off the other mounting juggernauts in their division. 

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My point is that it is impractical to build an uber team around an average (Smith) or terrible (Sanchez) quarterback.  Teams that succeed with little help from or in spite of their quarterbacks like the 2011 49ers or 2009 Jets have expiration dates. 

Can we find out if Smith is average or not before making judgements like this? Though your underlying premise is spot on.

Edited by unbanmadmike1
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There is nothing impractical about building an "uber team" around an "average (or worse)" QB.

in 2011, the 49ers went to the NFC championship game with Alex Smith.  The following year, they went to the big dance because they have been building their OL and defense for years and years. 

 

It helps when you can find your starting running back (Frank Gore) in the 3rd round, and his primary back-up in the 4th...and then continue to add to the position (despite "looking set") by getting yet another back in the 2nd round (LaMichael James) the following year, and then the RB of the future in Marcus Lattimore the draft after that.  They've been a run-first team for five years now and actually draft RBs every year.  hmmm.

 

It also helps when you can find starting OL (Alex Boone) from the UDFA pile, and maintain a nasty defense from high draft picks that actually hit.  I would say the Niners can win because of the team they've built through the draft...the depth they have...and their recent success in "hitting" on high draft picks. Colin Kaepernick or not, they have a team built to win, and survive injuries.  I'd say they have the expiration date of a Twinkie, and their only real challenge now will be to fend off the other mounting juggernauts in their division. 

 

This all sounds great in theory, but despite your attempts to toss it aside, the main difference between the 49ers ability to go from playing in the championship game to the Super Bowl, while the Jets had back to back season in the championship game before going on a downward spiral, was that the 9ers managed to upgrade their QB position while the Jets stuck with Sanchez's sorry ass.  Of course the other talent they built up helped them have the kind of roster that was capable of getting that far, but in the end the difference maker was still the QB.  Bottom line, the 9ers don't make it to the Super Bowl last season if they stick with Smith all year.  In all likelihood, they don't even make it past the divisional round.

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This all sounds great in theory, but despite your attempts to toss it aside, the main difference between the 49ers ability to go from playing in the championship game to the Super Bowl, while the Jets had back to back season in the championship game before going on a downward spiral, was that the 9ers managed to upgrade their QB position while the Jets stuck with Sanchez's sorry ass.  Of course the other talent they built up helped them have the kind of roster that was capable of getting that far, but in the end the difference maker was still the QB.  Bottom line, the 9ers don't make it to the Super Bowl last season if they stick with Smith all year.  In all likelihood, they don't even make it past the divisional round.

 

Meh, if it werent for 2 botched ST's plays, Smith led them to the SB the year before. 

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Meh, if it werent for 2 botched ST's plays, Smith led them to the SB the year before. 

 

If you're going to say that bad luck kept them from the Super Bowl, remember that they needed a LOT of luck to beat the Saints the round before.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320114025

 

The Saints committed FIVE turnovers that game (3 fumbles lost, 2 picks from Brees), and still only lost by 4 points. 

 

The next round, Smith went 12-26 for 196 yds.  Yes, he had the 2 TD's/0 INT's, but the Niners also went 1-13 on 3rd downs.  Vernon Davis had an absolutely MONSTER game too that made Smith's numbers appear better than they were.  Smith played awful that game against the Giants.

 

Smith was a game-manager.  Kaepernick was a game-changer.  Smith's team didn't maximize its potential.  Kaep's made the Super Bowl.  Pretty simple. 

 

The Andy Reid-Alex Smith Chiefs will see big improvement this year but they won't be headed to the Super Bowl.  The Niners know they have a great shot at getting back with Kaepernick.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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If you're going to say that bad luck kept them from the Super Bowl, remember that they needed a LOT of luck to beat the Saints the round before.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=320114025

 

The Saints committed FIVE turnovers that game (3 fumbles lost, 2 picks from Brees), and still only lost by 4 points. 

 

The next round, Smith went 12-26 for 196 yds.  Yes, he had the 2 TD's/0 INT's, but the Niners also went 1-13 on 3rd downs.  Vernon Davis had an absolutely MONSTER game too that made Smith's numbers appear better than they were.  Smith played awful that game against the Giants.

 

Smith was a game-manager.  Kaepernick was a game-changer.  Smith's team didn't maximize its potential.  Kaep's made the Super Bowl.  Pretty simple. 

 

The Andy Reid-Alex Smith Chiefs will see big improvement this year but they won't be headed to the Super Bowl.  The Niners know they have a great shot at getting back with Kaepernick.

 

OK, then it was the refs ruling that Bradshaw's obvious fumble was not a fumble.  Game would have been over.

 

Interceptions are not luck.  Fumbling a kickoff because the ball bounced around and grazed someone's ankle is bad luck.  Yeah, what's his name shouldn't have been anywhere near the football, but the Giants did nothing on defense or special teams to cause the fumble.

 

I'm not upset with the outcome, however.  Patriots lost to the Giants and might not have lost to SF.

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OK, then it was the refs ruling that Bradshaw's obvious fumble was not a fumble.  Game would have been over.

 

Interceptions are not luck.  Fumbling a kickoff because the ball bounced around and grazed someone's ankle is bad luck.  Yeah, what's his name shouldn't have been anywhere near the football, but the Giants did nothing on defense or special teams to cause the fumble.

 

I'm not upset with the outcome, however.  Patriots lost to the Giants and might not have lost to SF.

 

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that the 9ers definitely had some bad luck in that game which contributed to their loss, but in the end it cannot be dismissed that every team faces those situations sometimes and the 49ers did not have a QB capable of overcoming that.  Smith wasn't particularly impressive in that game and they only put up 17 points.  While this is obviously an extreme example, in the same way that Doug Brien's missed kicks don't exonerate Pennington for his ineptitude against the Steelers, having some bad bounces doesn't change that a better QB could have been a difference maker for them in that game.  I think you need to only look to Kaepernick's game vs the Packers to see the difference it made for them the following year.

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This all sounds great in theory, but despite your attempts to toss it aside, the main difference between the 49ers ability to go from playing in the championship game to the Super Bowl, while the Jets had back to back season in the championship game before going on a downward spiral, was that the 9ers managed to upgrade their QB position while the Jets stuck with Sanchez's sorry ass.  Of course the other talent they built up helped them have the kind of roster that was capable of getting that far, but in the end the difference maker was still the QB.  Bottom line, the 9ers don't make it to the Super Bowl last season if they stick with Smith all year.  In all likelihood, they don't even make it past the divisional round.

 

You said it bub, "managed" to upgrade their QB position.  That implies actually trying to upgrade the position, and then being successful. 

We've done neither. 

 

Rather than purchasing their talent off the street at a premium (which is how we got to our big games) the 49ers hit on their early to mid-round picks, and got contributors from the draft.  This has enabled them to develop depth and survive injuries. But it has also enabled them to take risks on positions without feeling significant repercussions.  Take their first round pick from last year, AJ Jenkins.  He hasn't even caught a pass in preseason, yet the team is in fine shape. 

 

This has also given them freedom to go QB-fishing in the draft without significantly setting their roster back if they didn't "hit". 

 

They found Kaepernick in the 2nd round (2011 draft), after he had been passed over by QB needy teams.  

 

1.1 Cam Newton

1.8 Jake Locker

1.10 Blaine Gabbert

1.12 Christian Ponder

2.35 Andy Dalton

2.36 Colin Kaepernick

 

Tell me the Titans, Jaguars, Vikings, or Bengals wouldn't like a re-do.  Either the Niners did their homework, and got lucky that nobody grabbed their guy before they did...or, they took a calculated risk (went fishing) and it paid off.

 

The way our team has been built has prevented us from having the luxury of going fishing for a quarterback. We traded UP to get Sanchez, and while he statistically had poor years in 2009 and 2010, he had results, and nobody was calling for his head. 

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Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that the 9ers definitely had some bad luck in that game which contributed to their loss, but in the end it cannot be dismissed that every team faces those situations sometimes and the 49ers did not have a QB capable of overcoming that. Smith wasn't particularly impressive in that game and they only put up 17 points. While this is obviously an extreme example, in the same way that Doug Brien's missed kicks don't exonerate Pennington for his ineptitude against the Steelers, having some bad bounces doesn't change that a better QB could have been a difference maker for them in that game. I think you need to only look to Kaepernick's game vs the Packers to see the difference it made for them the following year.

I'm not arguing the awesomeness of Alex Smith. I'm talking about that game.

Flubbing 2 returns and getting a game ending fumble undone by the refs, vs the eventual SB winner, is not something "every team" faces or deals with. Eli most certainly didn't have to deal with any of that - quite the contrary, he benefited from all of it - and the Giants STILL almost lost.

San Francisco's offense played well enough to win with Alex Smith.

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I love how you are all going back and forth about SF a team that LOST in the Super Bowl. The Jets lost twice in the AFC CG, it's not that different. this fan base would hate Sanchez just as much for a Super Bowl loss than for a AFC CG loss.  Colin Kaepernick lost in the Super Bowl that and a metro card will get you a ride on the subway.

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middling QBs rarely win super bowls in this era.  Lets say, with great talent around him, Sanchez could spit your estimate, and be the 19th best QB in the league.  The 19th best QB is not worth building that kind of roster around.  As you admit, there are back-ups more talented than Sanchez, that means we should be making all efforts to upgrade the position.

 

Don't you build the roster anyway ? This is my main problem with the JETS for the past 12 + years. I know some would argue that the Jets have had talent over those years just to make a point on just how bad our QB's have been but you don't just say screw getting talented players because the QB sucks or seems to suck. Do you keep crappy talent around when you do finally land a damn good QB ? How would you know ? I think the 2 go hand in hand its not one or the other that makes the offense click.

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I'm not arguing the awesomeness of Alex Smith. I'm talking about that game.

Flubbing 2 returns and getting a game ending fumble undone by the refs, vs the eventual SB winner, is not something "every team" faces or deals with. Eli most certainly didn't have to deal with any of that - quite the contrary, he benefited from all of it - and the Giants STILL almost lost.

San Francisco's offense played well enough to win with Alex Smith.

 

Alex Smith played extremely well in the playoffs and when he had to get in a shoot out with Drew Brees he stood toe to toe with one of the best and won. Alex Smith is a good ball control QB Colin Kapernick is explosive and damn good in his own right as a double threat, but with a defensive team like the niners, who could shut just about anyone down on any given day, I like the ball control offense as compared to the explosive one. Ball control wears out a defense and lets your defense rest in a close game in the 4th quarter of a big game (which so often happens in the playoffs) I would prefer the rested defense. Its the reason the Giants beat the Bills in the SB in the early 90's and the Giants had nothing special at all at QB

Edited by Smashmouth
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Don't you build the roster anyway ? This is my main problem with the JETS for the past 12 + years. I know some would argue that the Jets have had talent over those years just to make a point on just how bad our QB's have been but you don't just say screw getting talented players because the QB sucks or seems to suck. Do you keep crappy talent around when you do finally land a damn good QB ? How would you know ? I think the 2 go hand in hand its not one or the other that makes the offense click.

 

Point is, hard to add other talent when you're always in the market for a QB.  Jets should be trying to improve elsewhere, but this year we invested the 39th in a QB, next year it could be a top 10.  Those are both picks we could use to improve talent.

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Point is, hard to add other talent when you're always in the market for a QB.  Jets should be trying to improve elsewhere, but this year we invested the 39th in a QB, next year it could be a top 10.  Those are both picks we could use to improve talent.

 

That's true and a good point but this team was content on sticking with Pennington in his early years and the same for Sanchez and I think we did a piss poor job in both instances. Pennington never had a big target nor a TE and Sanchez was surrounded by thugs at a young age. That's not to say either would have responded with SB victories but you don't handle things the way we did.

 

FWIW I think we will be spending a top pick next year on a QB is something great is available if not next year then the following year

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That's true and a good point but this team was content on sticking with Pennington in his early years and the same for Sanchez and I think we did a piss poor job in both instances. Pennington never had a big target nor a TE and Sanchez was surrounded by thugs at a young age. That's not to say either would have responded with SB victories but you don't handle things the way we did.

 

FWIW I think we will be spending a top pick next year on a QB is something great is available if not next year then the following year

 

Another similarity between Sanchez and Pennington is neither were ever that good at playing QB anyway and simply had people constantly making excuses for them every time they failed.  For all the supposed problems with their weapons, both of them had a variety of starting WRs who were far more successful without them than they ever were with them, including some who earned Pro Bowl trips when getting to play with other QBs.

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The best QB on the Jets to run this WCO is Greg McElroy. He actually looked like he had some nice zip on the ball on those two throws down the middle of the field and hes not afraid in the pocket. Give this kid some decent protection in a quick short passing WCO and he will do very well IMHO. Working with the 2's and getting killed wont help him nor did giving him a shot last year when this OLine basically gave up and nearly got him killed.

Give McElroy some time with the 1's and I bet he out plays Sanchez and Geno . You don't need a gun to succeed in a well planned WC system you need brains and talent at the skill positions. Just ask Joe Montana who never had a strong arm and was drafted in the third round because of said weak arm. Walsh saw something in him no one else did Brains !!

Those disagreeing with this please don't say I'm comparing McElroy to Montana. Thanks in advance :P

Come on, Smash. This isn't funny anymore.

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There is nothing impractical about building an "uber team" around an "average (or worse)" QB.

 

 

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

by definition it is impractical to build a team around an average or worse QB.  It's the most important position on the field. 

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I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

by definition it is impractical to build a team around an average or worse QB.  It's the most important position on the field. 

 

By definition it is impossible for every team to have a top-10 quarterback.  22 teams actually have to make do with what they've got, and sometimes  by building a team around an "average" quarterback you can make him a top-10 QB.   It's not that crazy. 

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By definition it is impossible for every team to have a top-10 quarterback.  22 teams actually have to make do with what they've got, and sometimes  by building a team around an "average" quarterback you can make him a top-10 QB.   It's not that crazy. 

 

 

It is crazy.  If you've got Mark Sanchez at QB your number one priority should be to get someone who is much better.  The last GM didn't take that route and is now unemployed.

 

I'm not saying every team needs an Aaron Rodgers caliber QB.  If Geno turns out to be as productive as the guys in the tier below elite that is plenty good enough.  If he turns out to have Tony Romo production without the penchant for choking, I'll be giddy.

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I despise watching Sanchez play as much as anyone, but if you start Geno right now, he's going to get people killed because he just can't manage the game right now. You saw the blitzers run smack dab into the ball carrier's face on at least three occasions on plays that he should have audibled out of. Next time, it won't be the RB getting steamrolled, it'll be him. All that pre-snap stuff is where Mark has light years of an advantage. He's always been considered well-schooled, meaning that he can run the game, but throwing the ball to the open guy yet escapes him. Geno is the opposite--he'll light people up in a schoolyard game, but he's not prepared to run an offense right now.

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I despise watching Sanchez play as much as anyone, but if you start Geno right now, he's going to get people killed because he just can't manage the game right now. You saw the blitzers run smack dab into the ball carrier's face on at least three occasions on plays that he should have audibled out of. Next time, it won't be the RB getting steamrolled, it'll be him. All that pre-snap stuff is where Mark has light years of an advantage. He's always been considered well-schooled, meaning that he can run the game, but throwing the ball to the open guy yet escapes him. Geno is the opposite--he'll light people up in a schoolyard game, but he's not prepared to run an offense right now.

 

 

 

Probably pretty spot, which is unfortunate.  But at least when they lose this year, Sanchez can hang his hat on not getting any of them killed.  Out of a job perhaps, but not killed.

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Point is, hard to add other talent when you're always in the market for a QB.  Jets should be trying to improve elsewhere, but this year we invested the 39th in a QB, next year it could be a top 10.  Those are both picks we could use to improve talent.

 

We used a 1st round pick, a 2nd round pick, and $10M/year in cap space on Sanchez.  Could any/all of that have been used on improving talent? Naaaaaaah.

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Alex Smith played extremely well in the playoffs and when he had to get in a shoot out with Drew Brees he stood toe to toe with one of the best and won. Alex Smith is a good ball control QB Colin Kapernick is explosive and damn good in his own right as a double threat, but with a defensive team like the niners, who could shut just about anyone down on any given day, I like the ball control offense as compared to the explosive one. Ball control wears out a defense and lets your defense rest in a close game in the 4th quarter of a big game (which so often happens in the playoffs) I would prefer the rested defense. Its the reason the Giants beat the Bills in the SB in the early 90's and the Giants had nothing special at all at QB

 

Yep.  Smith isn't a stud QB but for a guy having an off-day (not to remember I'm pretty sure there were either drops or wrong routes or something from Crabtree & one other), he threw a couple of TDs and didn't turn it over.  As off-days go, that's not too bad.  And the game before he had a great game.  Now Smith doesn't have that extra oomph or whatever that Kaepernick has, but for a yawn QB he was good enough if the Giants didn't literally get every break in the game & Smith didn't get robbed of 3 possessions (2 from Walker, 1 from the refs).

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