The Sanchez Debate

[JustInFudge]

First of all, he didn't hang sh*t the first two years.  The team did better than they would have under other coaches the first two years. This goes back to the same bullsh*t debate that you agenda driven hipsters can't fathom.  If Rex is the reason that we never had another QB, then you have a point, but in the opinion of guys like Slats and I, that is on the GM.  It got him fired.  Have the Jets had a QB better than Sanchez on the roster the past 4 years?  Probably not.  Have they cut any QBs better than Sanchez?  Maybe if you like Tebow, but cutting better QBs or keeping better QBs on the bench are the things you can kill him for.  I don't see them here.  Your point about accountability may have some merit, but it is far from a slam dunk, fire the coach mandate, especially under circumstances where Greg McElroy is your only other option. 

 

Drew Stanton.  FTMFW

[slats]

What was more pathetic? The Rex Apologia or The Herm Apologia?

 

I'm actually rather excited about this new breed of Idzik Apologia. 

[#27TheDominator]

I'm actually rather excited about this new breed of Idzik Apologia. 

 

 

That's our T0m.  First on the bandwagon, first off. 

[Scott Dierking]

 

 

 

 he's got an overall winning record,  

So, if after he finishes this year, he has a losing record, should he be let go?

 

EDIT-"Survived the ushering in of a new GM"-Really? LOL That is what you give him as credit?

[T0mShane]

Yep! He hung himself so badly that he's got an overall winning record, only had 1 losing season, has more playoff wins than BB and survived the ushering in of a new GM. Damn he made that noose tight. Sooo tight.

Hey, you want to see what a coincidence looks like? John Idzik was officially hired as Jets GM on January 19.

You know what happened two days before that?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/17/seahawks-give-darrell-bevell-new-contract/

Seahawks give Darrell Bevell new contract

Posted by Curtis Crabtree on January 17, 2013, 11:01 PM EDT

Darrell Bevell got a fat raise to stay in Seattle. For a year. Super coincidence.

[T0mShane]

That's our T0m. First on the bandwagon, first off.

Link?

[T0mShane]

First of all, he didn't hang sh*t the first two years. The team did better than they would have under other coaches the first two years. This goes back to the same bullsh*t debate that you agenda driven hipsters can't fathom. If Rex is the reason that we never had another QB, then you have a point, but in the opinion of guys like Slats and I, that is on the GM. It got him fired. Have the Jets had a QB better than Sanchez on the roster the past 4 years? Probably not. Have they cut any QBs better than Sanchez? Maybe if you like Tebow, but cutting better QBs or keeping better QBs on the bench are the things you can kill him for. I don't see them here. Your point about accountability may have some merit, but it is far from a slam dunk, fire the coach mandate, especially under circumstances where Greg McElroy is your only other option.

Sooooo the same head coach that talks endlessly about his infinite search for fifth and sixth cornerbacks and who spent an entire summer yukking it up about the great fullback he hand-picked in the draft, is completely exonerated from blame when it comes to his quarterback situation. Or is this one of those deals where Rex only gets credit for the few good players on the roster?

[Scott Dierking]

Sooooo the same head coach that talks endlessly about his infinite search for fifth and sixth cornerbacks and who spent an entire summer yukking it up about the great fullback he hand-picked in the draft, is completely exonerated from blame when it comes to his quarterback situation. Or is this one of those deals where Rex only gets credit for the few good players on the roster?

Sparano was totally on Tannenbaum too. 

 

Rex is only responsible for good things that happen on defense. 

[#27TheDominator]

Hey, you want to see what a coincidence looks like? John Idzik was officially hired as Jets GM on January 19.

You know what happened two days before that?

Darrell Bevell got a fat raise to stay in Seattle. For a year. Super coincidence.

 

Serious question for you.  Idzik kept Rex on for the year.  This is like a free year for Idzik.  If they do well he gets tons of credit.  If they blow, he fires Rex and nobody blames him for their performance.  Do you see that as a positive - he is covering his ass just in case - or a negative - he's a snake and will get off scott free after a sh*tty season?  

[#27TheDominator]

Sooooo the same head coach that talks endlessly about his infinite search for fifth and sixth cornerbacks and who spent an entire summer yukking it up about the great fullback he hand-picked in the draft, is completely exonerated from blame when it comes to his quarterback situation. Or is this one of those deals where Rex only gets credit for the few good players on the roster?

 

Pretty long leap between completely exonerated and total culpability.  I have said this in almost every one of these threads, but I don't know who is most at fault, but neither do you or Dierking.  I find it hard to give him all the blame especially since his lack of attention to the offensive side of the ball is a problem I agree with you about.

[CTM]

During the course of Sanchez' third year, it became clear that the Jets needed to bring in competition for Sanchez, not before. Once they recognized that, man hasn't had much front office help at the position, let's blame him.

 

 

have you looked at his year 1 and 2 stats?

[dbatesman]

^ Agenda

Rex is a big mouth. He says crazy sh*t all the time. That is established and admitted, but let's all kill him for sayiing he wouldn't bench Mark. Never mind that he benched him at the end of last season for a sh*tty 7th rounder from Alabama. Rex said he won't do it, he'll never do it. Let's kill him for calling Smith's four (not three) INT practice brutal. He only said that Sanchez commited the stupidest play in the NFL, so obviously Mark is the teacher's pet and Geno bears the brunt of Ryan's wrath.

Rex talks up Sanchez: lol Rex says crazy sh*t all the time, why do you even care you dumb agendafaces

Rex rips Sanchez: THATS THE REAL REX RITE THERE BOOM ROASTED

[Smashmouth]

Rex and Sanchez are very much a like.

 

In 2011 Sanchez threw 26 TD's and ran in 6 more but he was terrible with the stupid turnovers

 

In 2011 Rex ran a top 5 defense but had no idea what was going on in the offense and it was pretty embarrassing when he was questioned about the offense that went in the toilet the last 6 games.

 

They are both 50 % sh*t and maybe they deserve each other and both are very hard to defend

[bitonti]

We are Jets fans and it's not surprising that all we do is look at the Jets. As if firing a coach or drafting a QB will fix everything. Bottom line there are 31 losers and 1 winner each year, it's ok to want improvement but to expect a ring, and firing people if it doesn't happen, has been a failing formula, since 1969. Im not saying do nothing but at a certain point the stars have to align. The fact that Tom Brady's not retired for example that hurts the Jets and there's no amount of firings that will fix it.  the Jets could have drafted Josh Freeman instead of Mark Sanchez and still be in the same place (or worse). 

 

maybe this seems like Rex apolgia or whatever but to get to the AFCCG 2x is actually closer than any other HC of the Jets, since Weeb. Better than Bill Parcells even. 

 

and the biggest secret of all is that winning a ring changes nothing. the bills are still due, and when the team loses it still sucks. 

[#27TheDominator]

Rex talks up Sanchez: lol Rex says crazy sh*t all the time, why do you even care you dumb agendafaces

Rex rips Sanchez: THATS THE REAL REX RITE THERE BOOM ROASTED

 

Actually, it was Rex rips Geno Smith, lol Rex says crazy sh*t all the time, why do you even care you dumb agendafaces.

[Larz]

it was a debate 8 games into his third season

 

now ?

 

not so much

[dbatesman]

Actually, it was Rex rips Geno Smith, lol Rex says crazy sh*t all the time, why do you even care you dumb agendafaces.

Current status: SERVED

[JustInFudge]

So, if after he finishes this year, he has a losing record, should he be let go?

 

EDIT-"Survived the ushering in of a new GM"-Really? LOL That is what you give him as credit?

 

Depends on how the team plays.

 

I'm not giving him credit, I was referring to the noose. 

 

Hey, you want to see what a coincidence looks like? John Idzik was officially hired as Jets GM on January 19.

You know what happened two days before that?

Darrell Bevell got a fat raise to stay in Seattle. For a year. Super coincidence.

 

That is all coinkydinky.  Strange that he didnt wait for Idzik to get hired and become the HC for the Jets.  Maybe your boy doesnt have that type of power?  Who knows?  Apparently he favors Sanchez too, since he's got such a big role in the decision of who starts and Sanchez is starting and stuff.

[JohnnyLV]

Yes its hypothetical but turnovers can be corrected and it is his biggest issue. It has to be the main focus of this offensive coaching staff. Remember when Parcells brought in vinny, he was good for 30 + turnovers a year and he completely turned it around. Will Sanchez have that kind of discipline ? I don't know.... but its certainly not out of the realm of possibility. We already know he can put up TD's and the other real issue is comp percentage and 60 is not that much of a jump either. Keep in mind a jump from 56 percent to 60 percent is 3 completions per game and that should be attainable in a WCO

 

'Why would you think turnovers will be corrected when they have not by now. Sanchez does not play well or understand progressions if his first guy is covered. He is terrible, and will very very likely remain terrible.

[dbatesman]

Rex and Sanchez are very much a like.

In 2011 Sanchez threw 26 TD's and ran in 6 more but he was terrible with the stupid turnovers

In 2011 Rex ran a top 5 defense but had no idea what was going on in the offense and it was pretty embarrassing when he was questioned about the offense that went in the toilet the last 6 games.

They are both 50 % sh*t and maybe they deserve each other and both are very hard to defend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAPViUrsl9U

[dbatesman]

We are Jets fans and it's not surprising that all we do is look at the Jets. As if firing a coach or drafting a QB will fix everything. Bottom line there are 31 losers and 1 winner each year, it's ok to want improvement but to expect a ring, and firing people if it doesn't happen, has been a failing formula, since 1969. Im not saying do nothing but at a certain point the stars have to align. The fact that Tom Brady's not retired for example that hurts the Jets and there's no amount of firings that will fix it.  the Jets could have drafted Josh Freeman instead of Mark Sanchez and still be in the same place (or worse). 

 

maybe this seems like Rex apolgia or whatever but to get to the AFCCG 2x is actually closer than any other HC of the Jets, since Weeb. Better than Bill Parcells even. 

 

and the biggest secret of all is that winning a ring changes nothing. the bills are still due, and when the team loses it still sucks.

I've dabbled in just about every perversion you can name, and even I have to admit: you are deeply, unsettlingly, irretrievably strange.

[yuvabuv]

Sanchez will be benched before the season ends.

[slats]

Hey, you want to see what a coincidence looks like? John Idzik was officially hired as Jets GM on January 19.

You know what happened two days before that?

Darrell Bevell got a fat raise to stay in Seattle. For a year. Super coincidence.

I guess Idzik told him that he wouldn't be hiring him to coach the Jets either, so he might as well stay put.

[GKnight83]

Given your criteria I would say he should be retained.  That would be improvement and it would give Geno more time to develop.  If at sometime in the future both QBs are considered legitimate starters, well, that would be a much better position than what we currently find them in.

[whodeawhodat]

Serious question for you.  Idzik kept Rex on for the year.  This is like a free year for Idzik.  If they do well he gets tons of credit.  If they blow, he fires Rex and nobody blames him for their performance.  Do you see that as a positive - he is covering his ass just in case - or a negative - he's a snake and will get off scott free after a sh*tty season?  

 

buddy, they are already blaming him for Geno practicing on a twisted ankle and 2 of his scrap heap pick ups not producing through 1 preseason game...

[whodeawhodat]

'Why would you think turnovers will be corrected when they have not by now. Sanchez does not play well or understand progressions if his first guy is covered. He is terrible, and will very very likely remain terrible.

 

oh, you misread his post.  he doesnt think this will happen, just wondering IF it happens...

[Matt39]

Brandon Weeden looked pretty good against that Lions secondary....

[T0mShane]

Serious question for you. Idzik kept Rex on for the year. This is like a free year for Idzik. If they do well he gets tons of credit. If they blow, he fires Rex and nobody blames him for their performance. Do you see that as a positive - he is covering his ass just in case - or a negative - he's a snake and will get off scott free after a sh*tty season?

I think Idzik is pragmatic. The team was a mess from top to bottom and he's clearing that mess. It's a tremendous act of mercy to let Rex pick up a free $3 mil this year.

[T0mShane]

Pretty long leap between completely exonerated and total culpability. I have said this in almost every one of these threads, but I don't know who is most at fault, but neither do you or Dierking. I find it hard to give him all the blame especially since his lack of attention to the offensive side of the ball is a problem I agree with you about.

You're a head coach. Your life depends on getting production out of the quarterback position. You continue to go into seasons with, at best, an up and down QB. You deserve what you get the same way a guy who doesn't check his parachute deserves to end up a pancake.

[faba]

You're a head coach. Your life depends on getting production out of the quarterback position. You continue to go into seasons with, at best, an up and down QB. You deserve what you get the same way a guy who doesn't check his parachute deserves to end up a pancake.

That is because Rex is so concerned with his defense- as head coach you oversee the entire team duh

[whodeawhodat]

I think Idzik is pragmatic. The team was a mess from top to bottom and he's clearing that mess. It's a tremendous act of mercy to let Rex pick up a free $3 mil this year.

He is getting that $3M either way, his is actually earning it rather than just collecting it.

[JoeKlecko]

I guess Idzik told him that he wouldn't be hiring him to coach the Jets either, so he might as well stay put.

 

How do you get that?  If Idzik couldn't fire Rex this year and Idzik has interest in hiring Bevell, what better way to keep him available but to have him re-up with Seattle for only one year?  At the end of this season, Rex could very well be fired and guess who would suddenly be without a contract?

[JoeKlecko]

First of all, he didn't hang sh*t the first two years.  The team did better than they would have under other coaches the first two years. This goes back to the same bullsh*t debate that you agenda driven hipsters can't fathom.  If Rex is the reason that we never had another QB, then you have a point, but in the opinion of guys like Slats and I, that is on the GM.  It got him fired.  Have the Jets had a QB better than Sanchez on the roster the past 4 years?  Probably not.  Have they cut any QBs better than Sanchez?  Maybe if you like Tebow, but cutting better QBs or keeping better QBs on the bench are the things you can kill him for.  I don't see them here.  Your point about accountability may have some merit, but it is far from a slam dunk, fire the coach mandate, especially under circumstances where Greg McElroy is your only other option. 

 

I several points/questions for you.  One, how do you know the team did better the first two years under Rex than they would have under another HC?  What proof do you have that that is definitively true?   The team did very well (better than expected by most) under Rex the first two years, but that doesn't mean that with a different HC they couldn't have done equally as well.  I think the fact that they did so well is basically due to two things.  One, I will give Rex credit for his aggressive defensive approach and his motto of keeping it likable and learnable (KILL).  I think that is a big reason for the success.  I think the defensive players loved that approach and it better suited their skills/abilities than the read and react, more passive approach of Mangini.  Two, I think the biggest factor is that Rex enjoyed the inevitable bump that teams with new player coaches get immediately following a strict disciplinarian.  The team underperformed with Mangini because he was so anal and oppressive.  Rex was like a breath of fresh air, and the players responded with enthusiasm and gusto.  He made it fun.  As in those situations, that "bump" only lasts a year or two and then things start going awry, as they have with the Jets.  The lack of discipline and holding players accountable starts biting those teams in the butt.

 

As for the QB issue, we all know that Tanny was not a personnel guy.  He didn't have a clue who was a player and who wasn't.  All he had to go on was input from the Scouting Dept. and the CS.  I think it's pretty obvious looking at the drafts since Rex arrived that Rex had a good bit of influence on Tanny regarding the draft and FA.  The bottom line is that the buck stopped with Tanny, but that doesn't mean that Rex wasn't at least partially culpable for not having a better option at QB.  A lot of fans want to solely blame Tanny for the lack of character and leadership the team had in 2011 and 2012, but the HC has a LOT of say in who makes the final roster and who doesn't and which players who become FAs are re-signed and who aren't.  The 2009 and 2010 teams had a lot of high character leaders and a great chemistry on the team.  Rex helped to diminish that.  Is it that far a stretch to say that he is at least partially responsible for the Jets not having a better backup QB than Brunell or McElroy?

[JoeKlecko]

We are Jets fans and it's not surprising that all we do is look at the Jets. As if firing a coach or drafting a QB will fix everything. Bottom line there are 31 losers and 1 winner each year, it's ok to want improvement but to expect a ring, and firing people if it doesn't happen, has been a failing formula, since 1969. Im not saying do nothing but at a certain point the stars have to align. The fact that Tom Brady's not retired for example that hurts the Jets and there's no amount of firings that will fix it.  the Jets could have drafted Josh Freeman instead of Mark Sanchez and still be in the same place (or worse). 

 

maybe this seems like Rex apolgia or whatever but to get to the AFCCG 2x is actually closer than any other HC of the Jets, since Weeb. Better than Bill Parcells even. 

 

and the biggest secret of all is that winning a ring changes nothing. the bills are still due, and when the team loses it still sucks. 

 

C'mon now.  Get real.  The loser GMs and HCs that the Jets had and fired during that time period were NOT fired because they didn't win a SB, but rather because they were so damn awful.  

 

Not all of them were fired, either.  Some quit and one of the GMs died of stomach cancer.  Walt Michaels, who probably was the best coach of any of them, was fired because Hess didn't like his drinking, not because he wasn't a good HC or didn't win a SB.  I don't know if Michaels' drinking really caused the team any problems or not, but I never heard of any real problems he created.  I think if he had been kept as HC, the Jets may have won a SB with the talent they had during that time period.

 

Who among those immortal and legendary GMs and HCs would you have retained so the Jets could have "stability" (and I use that word lightly)?  Stability only comes when there is knowledgable, competent leadership and coaching, and the Jets almost never had that after Weeb.  Leon Hess was an utter moron.  He never tried to get the Jets their own home (he was too heap).  He never hired an experienced, quality football man to run the team.  Instead, he hired businessmen who were as clueless as he was, he made the decisions himself, and he was totally unqualified to make those decisions.

[Sperm Edwards]

Brandon Weeden looked pretty good against that Lions secondary....

 

Yet he threw 4 picks (0 TDs) against the Eagles secondary when he started game 1 as a rookie.  That's half the passes Philly intercepted on the whole season.  And despite the 2nd-fewest pass attempts against them, they were dead-last in TD passes surrendered.

 

No biggie if Geno doesn't start week 1.  If he looks like he's picking things up a little better with a couple more weeks of practice, week 3 looks like a good time after Sanchez humiliates himself against NE on national TV again.  He'll have the benefit of seeing two full games that count and then he'd get 10 days in between games 2 and 3, kind of like a half bye week, to work with the 1's all by himself.  If he's still a little doofy with the offense week 3, then it'll be later.