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More important. QB or HC?


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Neither.

I say GM carries more weight because he will ultimately (in a properly run organization) make the decisions that are most important for the team e.g. selecting the HC or drafting a QB etc.

 

Missing at QB is the easiest way for a GM to get fired.  It's by far the most important position for any team sport, and moreso now than ever with the rule changes. 

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QB obv /thread

Your coach sets the philosophical tone for the direction of the entire franchise. He's the one who provides direction and accountability. He's the one who ensures the young players (on both sides of t

I'm on the edge of my seat.

I think McCarthy deserves some credit for Rodgers becoming so good. Rodgers was the first Tidwell QB to really make it..and his mechanics are night and day from when he was at Cal.

 

Peyton is the most unique of them all because he's basically the OC of the team. Doubtful you'll ever see anyone like him again.

 

The Packers are worthless without Rodgers though.  If you're going to give credit for him helping develop Rodgers, you have to downgrade him for not being able to do anything with the QB's he's running out there now.

 

The raw ability has to be there to mold, and the HC can't make the throws for the player. 

 

Some people said that one game aberration from Matt Flynn, that landed him big dollars with Seattle, made Rodgers a "System QB."  It sounds like a silly statement now.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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The Packers are worthless without Rodgers though.  If you're going to give credit for him helping develop Rodgers, you have to downgrade him for not being able to do anything with the QB's he's running out there now.

 

The raw ability has to be there to mold, and the HC can't make the throws for the player. 

 

Who, Flynn? When Flynn practiced with the Packers the first go around he landed a huge contract. They signed him off the street two weeks ago(and did beat the Falcons) Wallace got hurt. Scott Tolzien? Who?

 

Worthless is a bit of stretch....their backup QB got hurt too. No one's winning a lot of games with their emergency guy.

Edited by Matt39
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Missing at QB is the easiest way for a GM to get fired.  It's by far the most important position for any team sport, and moreso now than ever with the rule changes. 

Wouldnt having a GM savy enough to select the right QB d make GM the most important position or is this just a chicken or egg conundrum? 

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geno is likely too stupid to ever becomne a qb who makes consistently good decisions quickly. and even if he does become better at reading defenses and calling out blocking adjustments his accuracy is for sh*t and thats a problem that is not easily fixed, if ever. and the ingredient that ties this all together is the fact that he is not very good at the very basic fundamental of professional qb play which is...... taking the snap from under center.

 

When you say "stupid", which I've seen you say a lot about Geno, do you mean like, he's actually stupid person and is incapable of learning?  Or stupid as it equates to reading a defense, making the right throw and taking care of the Football?

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woudl rodgers be rodgers if he was as bad at qb as genover smith?

 

the point isn't how bad geno is, the point is that Rodgers was a late 1st rd pick who had the chance to sit and learn both the NFL game and Packers offense behind a future HoF QB.   

 

A player like Geno, or any other non-1st rd QB would benefit from a "hold the fort" QB to learn for a couple of seasons.  

 

Idzik really inherited a mess at the QB position as there was nothing he could do with Sanchez guaranteed contract and the fan base would have revolted with Sanchez under center opening day.   It was a no-win situation for a rookie GM.    Ideally, Idzik would have found a veteran QB to start for a couple of seasons while Geno (or another 2nd / 3rd rd pick) had the chance to learn.   At the same time Idzik could build the team around the QB through the draft.  

 

Right now the Jets have almost no talent at all on the offensive side of the ball.    The Jets don't have 1 offensive player who could start for Seattle.   They barely have a single offensive player who could start for the Patriots.    

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When you say "stupid", which I've seen you say a lot about Geno, do you mean like, he's actually stupid person and is incapable of learning?  Or stupid as it equates to reading a defense, making the right throw and taking care of the Football?

What was his score on the wonderlick, or better yet how did he score on the TOm Shanerlick, which I believ was posted in another thread? You know the one where you had to identify the speaker of the house and look at yourself in the mirror.

Edited by joewillie78
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Wouldnt having a GM savy enough to select the right QB d make GM the most important position or is this just a chicken or egg conundrum? 

 

Yes, but sometimes there's a lot of luck involved.  No one knew what Tom Brady would be.  Meanwhile, the Colts fell into # 1 picks at the right time TWICE (Peyton and Andrew Luck).

 

The Packer front office DID seem to know what they were doing when they acquired Brett Favre and took Rodgers in the back end of the 1st.  The Broncos were smart to cut ties with Tebow after a playoff victory; that was the first time a QB who won a playoff game was NOT on that team's roster the following season.  

 

It's all about taking advantage of your opportunities.  The Jets haven't found a QB because we largely haven't tried hard enough to do so.  We should have recognized what Pennington, Kellen Clemens and Mark Sanchez were far sooner than we did and brought in more QB's over the last 10 years, but we didn't.  You can knock Idzik for possibly missing on Geno, but at least he seems to be TRYING.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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What was his score on the wonderlick, or better yet how did he score on the TOm Shanerlick, which I believ was posted in another thread? You know the one where you had to identify the speaker of the house and look at yourself in the mirror.

 

The bolded sounds very vulgar and makes me think of testicles...

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How many bad coaches have Brady, Manning, Rodgers had ? Answer NONE. When these guys are slinging it, the coach could be at Dave and Busters, getting a tattoo of their favorite QB, or getting a foot massage. Its that simple.

  

  Manning has not exactly had the best coaches over his career.   Jim Mora?  Are we seriously going to say that guy is a great HC?   He's ok, but he was a guy who never won a damn playoff game.   Dungy was a defensive guru who never though much of offense.  And honestly he's just as much to blame as Manning is in choking all the time in the playoffs.  Caldwell?  The guy sat most of his starters against the Jets in the second half of a game during a 14-0 start.     And Fox, he's a decent HC, but nobody is going to call that a guy a HOF.

 

 So this theory that Manning has had great coaching is a bit far stretched.   Brady has had BB who went 11-5 with a backup QB.   And Rodgers, who knows,  I wouldn't say the Packers HC is great either.       Look at the Packers without Rodgers?  They suck.    Look at the Colts without Manning.  They went 2-14 and got the HC fired.     The only one on that list who can't say that is BB.

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  Manning has not exactly had the best coaches over his career.   Jim Mora?  Are we seriously going to say that guy is a great HC?   He's ok, but he was a guy who never won a damn playoff game.   Dungy was a defensive guru who never though much of offense.  And honestly he's just as much to blame as Manning is in choking all the time in the playoffs.  Caldwell?  The guy sat most of his starters against the Jets in the second half of a game during a 14-0 start.     And Fox, he's a decent HC, but nobody is going to call that a guy a HOF.

 

 So this theory that Manning has had great coaching is a bit far stretched.   Brady has had BB who went 11-5 with a backup QB.   And Rodgers, who knows,  I wouldn't say the Packers HC is great either.       Look at the Packers without Rodgers?  They suck.    Look at the Colts without Manning.  They went 2-14 and got the HC fired.     The only one on that list who can't say that is BB.

 

joewillie was actually agreeing with you:

 

 

 

How many bad coaches have Brady, Manning, Rodgers had ? Answer NONE. When these guys are slinging it, the coach could be at Dave and Busters, getting a tattoo of their favorite QB, or getting a foot massage. Its that simple.

 

HC's for truly great QB's are largely irrelevant.  Just let your QB do his thing.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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the point isn't how bad geno is, the point is that Rodgers was a late 1st rd pick who had the chance to sit and learn both the NFL game and Packers offense behind a future HoF QB.   

 

A player like Geno, or any other non-1st rd QB would benefit from a "hold the fort" QB to learn for a couple of seasons.  

 

Idzik really inherited a mess at the QB position as there was nothing he could do with Sanchez guaranteed contract and the fan base would have revolted with Sanchez under center opening day.   It was a no-win situation for a rookie GM.    Ideally, Idzik would have found a veteran QB to start for a couple of seasons while Geno (or another 2nd / 3rd rd pick) had the chance to learn.   At the same time Idzik could build the team around the QB through the draft.  

 

Right now the Jets have almost no talent at all on the offensive side of the ball.    The Jets don't have 1 offensive player who could start for Seattle.   They barely have a single offensive player who could start for the Patriots.

Don't forget Rodgers, and the Packers finished 6-10 his first full year as a starter, yes Rodgers looked the part by years end, but there was still some bumps in the road, and bad QB play that season even after sitting behind Favre for 4 seasons. And that team had just about the same core as the team that lost to the Giants in the NFCCG the year before, and won the SB with 2 years later. This might suggest he also needed a full season under his belt while starting.

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Missing at QB is the easiest way for a GM to get fired.  It's by far the most important position for any team sport, and moreso now than ever with the rule changes. 

 

Which IMO is the #1 reason why Geno Smith dropped to round 2 and why, despite such superior physical attributes, Kaepernick only rose to the same spot instead of rising to the middle of round 1.  Because if you take a QB in round 1, you're pretty much married to him for a couple of seasons.  Take one in round 2 - especially one who might be a bit of a project like both of these two - and it's far more easily forgotten and forgiven if you find someone decent soon enough.  If Drew Brees didn't turn his career around, AJ Smith still was around a few years later after a 4-12 season to draft another QB #1 (and trade him away for the QB at #4) and live to tell about it.

 

You can be wrong on a QB and swing & whiff on him, but at least be smart enough to not bet your career on him.  Drafting a QB in round 1 is tying your career as a GM to him. 

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  Manning has not exactly had the best coaches over his career.   Jim Mora?  Are we seriously going to say that guy is a great HC?   He's ok, but he was a guy who never won a damn playoff game.   Dungy was a defensive guru who never though much of offense.  And honestly he's just as much to blame as Manning is in choking all the time in the playoffs.  Caldwell?  The guy sat most of his starters against the Jets in the second half of a game during a 14-0 start.     And Fox, he's a decent HC, but nobody is going to call that a guy a HOF.

 

 So this theory that Manning has had great coaching is a bit far stretched.   Brady has had BB who went 11-5 with a backup QB.   And Rodgers, who knows,  I wouldn't say the Packers HC is great either.       Look at the Packers without Rodgers?  They suck.    Look at the Colts without Manning.  They went 2-14 and got the HC fired.     The only one on that list who can't say that is BB.

You misunderstood a little bit. I agree that most of those guys average at best, but my point being that average or even worse could be the coach when these 3 are chucking it all around.

 

Here's what even I would say if I was coaching Manning: "Peyton, whattaya think for todays game? Coach, I'm going to sling it about 50 times. Go gettum Peyton.

 

Thats it, I mean come on, does that guy need coaching?

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Yes, but sometimes there's a lot of luck involved.  No one knew what Tom Brady would be.  Meanwhile, the Colts fell into # 1 picks at the right time TWICE (Peyton and Andrew Luck).

 

The Packer front office DID seem to know what they were doing when they acquired Brett Favre and took Rodgers in the back end of the 1st.  The Broncos were smart to cut ties with Tebow after a playoff victory; that was the first time a QB who won a playoff game was NOT on that team's roster the following season.  

 

It's all about taking advantage of your opportunities.  The Jets haven't found a QB because we largely haven't tried hard enough to do so.  We should have recognized what Pennington, Kellen Clemens and Mark Sanchez were far sooner than we did and brought in more QB's over the last 10 years, but we didn't.  You can knock Idzik for possibly missing on Geno, but at least he seems to be TRYING.

 

  Idzik doesn't get a pass because 'he's trying.'  I mean you could say Rex & Tanny tried with Sanchez.  They even brought in Tebow. Tanny & Mangini tried with Kellen and even brought in Favre.    Years ago they drafted Pennington in the first round.   Those guys just never became what anybody wished or hoped.   

So this theory that Idzik picked up Geno as a good thing only works if Geno is any good.

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You misunderstood a little bit. I agree that most of those guys average at best, but my point being that average or even worse could be the coach when these 3 are chucking it all around.

 

Here's what even I would say if I was coaching Manning: "Peyton, whattaya think for todays game? Coach, I'm going to sling it about 50 times. Go gettum Peyton.

 

Thats it, I mean come on, does that guy need coaching?

 

You mean Tony Dungy doesn't know how to develop QBs? 

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Your coach sets the philosophical tone for the direction of the entire franchise. He's the one who provides direction and accountability. He's the one who ensures the young players (on both sides of the ball) are getting the proper technique work to maximize their abilities, and he's the one who dictates the approaches each coordinator takes into every game. The head coach is responsible for educating his assistants, for getting his coordinators on the same page week in and week out, for identifying his team's weaknesses and determining if he can fix those internally, or if he has to appeal to his GM for external help. If you're a defense-oriented head coach and you have a bad offensive tackle, that's your problem to fix. If you're an offense-oriented head coach and your cornerbacks are struggling, that's your problem to fix. If the GM delivers you a first-round wideout who thinks he's Lil Wayne, it's your job to figure out how to coach him. If you're a head coach who has a say in personnel and you bring in an OLB that doesn't want to play, well, that's your problem, too. Have a defensive coordinator that hates your guts? Your problem. Have a WR coach that can't control a diva WR? Your problem. This is why the life span of a head coach is so short. You're in charge of everything. Everything. That product that ends up on the field on Sundays is yours, top to bottom.

As for the quarterback, none of these guys are self-contained solutions to your team's problems. Getting a quarterback is simply the beginning of the process of producing a winner. The amount of work that has to go into developing even the most pro-ready draftee QB is tremendous. Then you have to go out and find the backs and WRs and various type of OL that supplement that quarterback's set of skills. And if you miss a beat in his development? Or you whiff on that LT you were hoping would protect the blind side? You can ruin that QB. That happens. It's a confidence position that relies on a hundred different moving parts early on for it to succeed. This is why the head coach is more important than the QB--because no young QB is good enough to overcome a bad head coach who lays the foundation of a bad team. It doesn't happen.

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Your coach sets the philosophical tone for the direction of the entire franchise. He's the one who provides direction and accountability. He's the one who ensures the young players (on both sides of the ball) are getting the proper technique work to maximize their abilities, and he's the one who dictates the approaches each coordinator takes into every game. The head coach is responsible for educating his assistants, for getting his coordinators on the same page week in and week out, for identifying his team's weaknesses and determining if he can fix those internally, or if he has to appeal to his GM for external help. If you're a defense-oriented head coach and you have a bad offensive tackle, that's your problem to fix. If you're an offense-oriented head coach and your cornerbacks are struggling, that's your problem to fix. If the GM delivers you a first-round wideout who thinks he's Lil Wayne, it's your job to figure out how to coach him. If you're a head coach who has a say in personnel and you bring in an OLB that doesn't want to play, well, that's your problem, too. Have a defensive coordinator that hates your guts? Your problem. Have a WR coach that can't control a diva WR? Your problem. This is why the life span of a head coach is so short. You're in charge of everything. Everything. That product that ends up on the field on Sundays is yours, top to bottom.

As for the quarterback, none of these guys are self-contained solutions to your team's problems. Getting a quarterback is simply the beginning of the process of producing a winner. The amount of work that has to go into developing even the most pro-ready draftee QB is tremendous. Then you have to go out and find the backs and WRs and various type of OL that supplement that quarterback's set of skills. And if you miss a beat in his development? Or you whiff on that LT you were hoping would protect the blind side? You can ruin that QB. That happens. It's a confidence position that relies on a hundred different moving parts early on for it to succeed. This is why the head coach is more important than the QB--because no young QB is good enough to overcome a bad head coach who lays the foundation of a bad team. It doesn't happen.

A complete indictment on our current Head coach, without ever mentioning his name. Well done.

Edited by joewillie78
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  Idzik doesn't get a pass because 'he's trying.'  I mean you could say Rex & Tanny tried with Sanchez.  They even brought in Tebow. Tanny & Mangini tried with Kellen and even brought in Favre.    Years ago they drafted Pennington in the first round.   Those guys just never became what anybody wished or hoped.   

So this theory that Idzik picked up Geno as a good thing only works if Geno is any good.

 

He gets a pass because this was Year 1 of a rebuilding project and he took the highest rated QB in the draft.  For a while it seemed to work.  It still might.  Geno can be a total bust and it was still the right pick at that spot on the board.  Without Geno we don't get to 5-4 and make the season fun for a little bit.  Without Geno we're stuck with another year of Mark Sanchez and are left wondering why Idzik didn't at least TRY to get an EJ Manuel, Geno or Glennon.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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He gets a pass because this was Year 1 of a rebuilding project and he took the highest rated QB in the draft.  For a while it seemed to work.  It still might.  Geno can be a total bust and it was still the right pick at that spot on the board.  Without Geno we don't get to 5-4 and make the season fun for a little bit.  Without Geno we're stuck with another year of Mark Sanchez and are left wondering why Idzik didn't at least TRY to get an EJ Manuel, Geno or Glennon.

If Geno's a bust, hindsight will demonstrate that he wasn't the right pick there. The choice never had to be Geno or Mark. He didn't have to rely on a rookie QB, he could've signed a veteran who had actually set foot on a football field in the last couple years.

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If Geno's a bust, hindsight will demonstrate that he wasn't the right pick there. The choice never had to be Geno or Mark. He didn't have to rely on a rookie QB, he could've signed a veteran who had actually set foot on a football field in the last couple years.

 

I get that Garrard wasn't the guy to do that, but with the limited cap dollars we had, I fail to see which capable veteran we could have acquired that wouldn't have been overpaid, hot garbage.

 

This offseason we have the cap dollars to get a starting-caliber veteran.  If we don't bring one in then I'll be pissed at Idzik.

 

We didn't have to draft a QB, true.  But it's hard to argue that if you're drafting Best Player Available, Geno wasn't the guy at that spot.  He was rated a top 15 pick going in and was at one point in the Offensive Rookie of the Year discussion.  Seems silly now, but even with hindsight as a guide, that's not a bad pick.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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Pretty much. QB's aren't graded on a different scale in hindsight. "Oh he sucked, but at least we picked a QB."

 

Yes they are.  In the NFL today it makes more sense than ever to keep trying to acquire QB's until you find the right one.  It's the most important position on the field, and if you think you can find a starter and only have to burn a 2nd rounder to do it, you pull the trigger.  SEE:  Andy Dalton.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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I get that Garrard wasn't the guy to do that, but with the limited cap dollars we had, I fail to see which capable veteran we could have acquired that wouldn't have been overpaid, hot garbage.

 

This offseason we have the cap dollars to get a starting-caliber veteran.  If we don't bring one in then I'll be pissed at Idzik.

I wanted Jason Campbell. He signed a two year deal for under $4M, and seems to be doing a decent job in Cleveland. I dare say the Jets might still be the masters of their own playoff destiny with Campbell at QB, and something else drafted in the second round.

 

We didn't have to draft a QB, true.  But it's hard to argue that if you're drafting Best Player Available, Geno wasn't the guy at that spot.  He was rated a top 15 pick going in and was at one point in the Offensive Rookie of the Year discussion.  Seems silly now, but even with hindsight as a guide, that's not a bad pick.

I didn't want Geno. The knock on him was a lack of mental resiliency, someone who mopes when things aren't going his way. It sounded way too much like Sanchez part 2 to me, and I think we've seen it play out on the field. He'll get the opportunity to demonstrate that he can do better -and I hope he does- but so far, he doesn't look like much of a pick.

I understand the importance of the QB position, but if the player isn't there, it's okay to go in a different direction.

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