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John Idzik boxes himself into a cornerback


stoicsentry
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This is the part that doesn't make sense for me. This guy supposedly turned down 6 years from the Broncos and yet he's offered a one year deal and he's considering it strongly enough to take a physical? Did he really think that might be as good as it gets? He already had a visit lined up with the Giants, what is it to take a physical for the Jets? A cab ride and an hour of his time?

I thought that was debunked as the Broncos offer was basically 6 one-year deals, heavy on the tail end that he wouldn't see, with about $10M in guarantees.

 

Also that contract had come and gone and was no longer being offered by Denver (who had since moved on), so it's no longer a deal one necessarily had to one-up.

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Their numbers are very similar besides TD catches. Hartline hasn't exactly had a Peyton Manning type QB throwing him the rock either. Also take into account Decker has had other weapons (D.Thomas, Welker, Juluis Thomas) on offense help give him quality match ups against opposing defense. Hartline was a the Dolphins #1 WR in '12 playing with the likes of Davone Bess, Armon Bins and Marlon Moore. While I'd certainly give Decker the edge the comparison is not far off.

 

Welker was in NE and Julius Thomas a completely unheard of nobody in 2012 when Decker was putting up similar numbers as last year.  Plus, as others have mentioned, he was the team's leading receiver with the Orton/Tebow at QB before that, ahead of even Demaryius Thomas.  None of this to say it makes him an all-world talent, but attributing his success to all of these other guys is a bit disingenuous.  I guess we'll see how he holds up this year.

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I thought that was debunked as the Broncos offer was basically 6 one-year deals, heavy on the tail end that he wouldn't see, with about $10M in guarantees.

 

Also that contract had come and gone and was no longer being offered by Denver (who had since moved on), so it's no longer a deal one necessarily had to one-up.

 

Well, this is just me being ignorant. My understanding of his Broncos negotiations was different than the truth. It makes more sense now.

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Here's the bulk of your 2014 likely roster:

QB: Geno, Simms, Brett Smith/Tajh Boyd

RB: Ivory, Powell, Goodson

WR: Decker, Marqise Lee/Brandin Cooks, Kerley, Nelson

TE: Cumberland, Sudfeld, Draft pick

LT: Brick

LG: Winters

C: Mangold

RG: Colon

RT: Giacomini

K: Folk

DE: Mo

NT: Harrison

DE: Richardson

OLB: Barnes/Pace

ILB: Davis

ILB: Harris

OLB: Coples

CB1: Milliner

CB2: Bradley Roby

CB3: Wilson

FS: Josh Bush/Draftee

SS: Antonio Allen

Not terrible.

That is a better and younger roster with $50mm + to spend next year on whomever the hell looks interesting. Outstanding.

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800+ for 8 TD isn't an accomplishment with Tebow/Orton, just because D. Thomas was there?

Decker is an ok receiver, and a good number 2.  Was he the best number 2 out there, imo and it seems alot of columnists think that he was not the best number 2.  I am ok with his signing.

Although, Decker being the only "blockbuster" deal we make with all the money we have available, will make the Jets go into the Loser column in the "Who won and who lost in free agency"

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Decker is an ok receiver, and a good number 2.  Was he the best number 2 out there, imo and it seems alot of columnists think that he was not the best number 2.  I am ok with his signing.

Although, Decker being the only "blockbuster" deal we make with all the money we have available, will make the Jets go into the Loser column in the "Who won and who lost in free agency"

 

Agreed

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800+ for 8 TD isn't an accomplishment with Tebow/Orton, just because D. Thomas was there?

I'm not saying Decker isn't a good WR. All i'm saying is the writers comparison to Hartline isn't that far fetched. I conceded Decker has the edge but I don't think the gap between them is a big as some of you think it is.

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Decker is an ok receiver, and a good number 2.  Was he the best number 2 out there, imo and it seems alot of columnists think that he was not the best number 2.  I am ok with his signing.

Although, Decker being the only "blockbuster" deal we make with all the money we have available, will make the Jets go into the Loser column in the "Who won and who lost in free agency"

Well said.

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Decker is an ok receiver, and a good number 2.  Was he the best number 2 out there, imo and it seems alot of columnists think that he was not the best number 2.  I am ok with his signing.

Although, Decker being the only "blockbuster" deal we make with all the money we have available, will make the Jets go into the Loser column in the "Who won and who lost in free agency"

 

The teams that win free agency never win in real life.  It's a quick fix that rarely fixes things.  And it especially would have been the wrong strategy for us to take when we're not close to being within Super Bowl contention.

 

People want to knock Decker for not being a "# 1", as if that matters at all.  If there were no # 1's on the market, why is that a legitimate criticism?

Edited by Jetsfan80
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Their numbers are very similar besides TD catches. Hartline hasn't exactly had a Peyton Manning type QB throwing him the rock either. Also take into account Decker has had other weapons (D.Thomas, Welker, Juluis Thomas) on offense help give him quality match ups against opposing defense. Hartline was a the Dolphins #1 WR in '12 playing with the likes of Davone Bess, Armon Bins and Marlon Moore. While I'd certainly give Decker the edge the comparison is not far off.

 

Their games aren't similar, they are being compared because they are both white and over 6'2". I've said that I actually like Hartline, I just don't like the comparison.

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Decker is an ok receiver, and a good number 2.  Was he the best number 2 out there, imo and it seems alot of columnists think that he was not the best number 2.  I am ok with his signing.

Although, Decker being the only "blockbuster" deal we make with all the money we have available, will make the Jets go into the Loser column in the "Who won and who lost in free agency"

 

 

Agreed

 

Remind me again boys, where is the trophy for free agency champion?

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The teams that win free agency never win in real life.  It's a quick fix that rarely fixes things.  And it especially would have been the wrong strategy for us to take when we're not close to being within Super Bowl contention.

 

People want to knock Decker for not being a "# 1", as if that matters at all.  If there were no # 1's on the market, why is that a legitimate criticism?

I am not criticizing the Decker signing, as I did say I am ok with it.   I am just saying that with this many holes as we have, with as much money as we have, if Decker is the only signing, we will go down as one of the biggest losers in free agency.

and for the people who say FA does not win championships, you have to remember there is a middle ground.  Middle ground that with a few good signings, could make us win a couple games more than last year, thus making the playoffs next year.

Right now, I think we did not do anything that will make us better than last year, maybe worse as we lost players.  Yes, we have draft picks, but most of the time draft picks take time to develop ( and there is no gaurantees) which means we will have another rebuilding 8-8 or 7-9 year

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This is the part that doesn't make sense for me. This guy supposedly turned down 6 years from the Broncos and yet he's offered a one year deal and he's considering it strongly enough to take a physical? Did he really think that might be as good as it gets? He already had a visit lined up with the Giants, what is it to take a physical for the Jets? A cab ride and an hour of his time?

 

I'm pretty sure that he was scheduled with the Jets before the Giants and you would waste an hour of your time for a million miles apart?  It is the way these deals are structured that makes the difference. I know you saw Sperm's post about the Denver offer.  Remember, this is a guy coming off one strong year that has been hinting at retirement.  As far as contracts go he might be as difficult to deal with as Revis.

 

Decker is an ok receiver, and a good number 2.  Was he the best number 2 out there, imo and it seems alot of columnists think that he was not the best number 2.  I am ok with his signing.

Although, Decker being the only "blockbuster" deal we make with all the money we have available, will make the Jets go into the Loser column in the "Who won and who lost in free agency"

 

Do we want blockbusters or players?  I would rather win on Sundays than "who won and who lost in free agency"

 

He had 800 yards and 8 tds With Tebow and had a physical freak D. Thomas on the other side.

 

Thomas missed a bunch of games in 2011.  I think he only started 5.

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Probably in the same place as the trophy for the drafting champion.

 

Yea, I hear drafting Tom Brady has done nothing for the Patriots' franchise. Do you hear yourself man? You're actually trying to argue that having good drafts doesn't equate to success.. I think you need a timeout man, clear your head a bit.

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800+ for 8 TD isn't an accomplishment with Tebow/Orton, just because D. Thomas was there?

 

  Context.   Tebow sucked as a QB, but the guy was pretty damn good on the ground.  He had what, 600+ rushing yards.  Team didn't give a damn about him passing the ball, they worried about him running.  He's not RG3 or Vick or Newton, but he won some games with his legs.    Remember the Jets losing to them?  

 

   So it was some nice numbers, but saying Tebow sucked and Decker still had 8 TDs is stretching the truth.   Teams were more worried Tebow would run for a TD compared to throwing for one.   And so that's how it went and Decker took advantage.  Good for him, but people act like it was all Decker when it wasn't.

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Yea, I hear drafting Tom Brady has done nothing for the Patriots' franchise. Do you hear yourself man? You're actually trying to argue that having good drafts doesn't equate to success.. I think you need a timeout man, clear your head a bit.

 

 Do you hear yourself?   Tom Brady was a 6th round pick in 1999.    He turned out to be great, but how many other HOF QBs have been drafted in the 6th round?  And if Bledsoe doesn't get hurt, does Tom Brady even start?       You need to build through the draft, but thinking a 6th round pick is the answer is a bit ridiculous.   

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  Context.   Tebow sucked as a QB, but the guy was pretty damn good on the ground.  He had what, 600+ rushing yards.  Team didn't give a damn about him passing the ball, they worried about him running.  He's not RG3 or Vick or Newton, but he won some games with his legs.    Remember the Jets losing to them?  

 

   So it was some nice numbers, but saying Tebow sucked and Decker still had 8 TDs is stretching the truth.   Teams were more worried Tebow would run for a TD compared to throwing for one.   And so that's how it went and Decker took advantage.  Good for him, but people act like it was all Decker when it wasn't.

 

I see what you are saying. But to be fair he had to catch all of those Tebow ducks. That nullifies a lot of the advantage.

Edited by JetsFanInDenver
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Yea, I hear drafting Tom Brady has done nothing for the Patriots' franchise.

 

Yeah, and I hear signing Drew Brees has done nothing for the Saints and signing Peyton Manning has done nothing for the Broncos.

 

The point wasn't that the draft is meaningless, it's that free agency isn't meaningless either.

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  Context.   Tebow sucked as a QB, but the guy was pretty damn good on the ground.  He had what, 600+ rushing yards.  Team didn't give a damn about him passing the ball, they worried about him running.  He's not RG3 or Vick or Newton, but he won some games with his legs.    Remember the Jets losing to them?  

 

   So it was some nice numbers, but saying Tebow sucked and Decker still had 8 TDs is stretching the truth.   Teams were more worried Tebow would run for a TD compared to throwing for one.   And so that's how it went and Decker took advantage.  Good for him, but people act like it was all Decker when it wasn't.

 

I guess, but by the same token with Teborton he caught only 45 percent of his targets as opposed to 67 percent with Manning. 

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  Context.   Tebow sucked as a QB, but the guy was pretty damn good on the ground.  He had what, 600+ rushing yards.  Team didn't give a damn about him passing the ball, they worried about him running.  He's not RG3 or Vick or Newton, but he won some games with his legs.    Remember the Jets losing to them?  

 

   So it was some nice numbers, but saying Tebow sucked and Decker still had 8 TDs is stretching the truth.   Teams were more worried Tebow would run for a TD compared to throwing for one.   And so that's how it went and Decker took advantage.  Good for him, but people act like it was all Decker when it wasn't.

 

It was 600 yards, not 800. And half the season was Tebow, the other half was Orton.

 

Either way, he put up 600+, 1000+, 1000+. People are thinking up A LOT of excuses for this. It wasn't him getting the 1,000 yard seasons, it was Manning. It wasn't him getting that 600/8 season, it was Tebow. I suppose if you're hellbent on finding reasons why a guy sucks, then you'll find 'em. We could go through the same types of excuses for most of the top receivers in the league.

 

And, by the way, has anyone bothered to come up with excuses for his production in college yet?

Edited by stoicsentry
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Yeah, and I hear signing Drew Brees has done nothing for the Saints and signing Peyton Manning has done nothing for the Broncos.

 

The point wasn't that the draft is meaningless, it's that free agency isn't meaningless either.

 

You mean there's a middle ground? No way. Everything has to be either or around here. If you are not completely satisfied with a GM, you hate him. You're either a Rex guy or an Idzik guy. If you think the jury is out on Geno, you're a Geno lover, if you are disappointed Idzik didn't find a starting CB in free agency, you're in favor of spending money like a drunken sailor. The list grows by leaps and bounds all the time.

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 Do you hear yourself?   Tom Brady was a 6th round pick in 1999.    He turned out to be great, but how many other HOF QBs have been drafted in the 6th round?  And if Bledsoe doesn't get hurt, does Tom Brady even start?       You need to build through the draft, but thinking a 6th round pick is the answer is a bit ridiculous.   

 

The point isn't about Brady, it's about the impact that the draft has in the salary cap era. You aren't building a winning team via free agency and you certainly aren't building a super bowl caliber team that way.  

 

You are literally arguing with yourself. I never touched on the merit of a 6th round draft pick, I used Brady as an extreme example in how winning the draft equals winning in the regular and post-season. 

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Don't depend on other people's players.  Draft your own.  Every Super Bowl champion in the Free Agency era has been built that way. 

 

As for the "middle ground" people, yes, that is what Idzik has found.  The middle ground.  Getting quality players without succumbing to ridiculous demands by others.  Would it have been nice if we could have gotten an impact player on both sides of the ball?  Sure.  But Vontae chose to stay home.  The rest of the corners either didn't fit our system or wanted too much money for what they were worth.  Oh well.  Figure it out, Rex.

Edited by Jetsfan80
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Yeah, and I hear signing Drew Brees has done nothing for the Saints and signing Peyton Manning has done nothing for the Broncos.

 

The point wasn't that the draft is meaningless, it's that free agency isn't meaningless either.

 

Outside of Brees and the tail-end of Mannings career, you don't find franchise-changing players in free agency that often, certainly not non-QB payers.  Sure it happens, but considering you're quibbling over players who will be our #2 cb, #3 or #4 WR and someone who may be a situational OLB for us is taking it to an extreme level. Those aren't signings that put you over the top and it's not how you build a team, the draft is.

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