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John Idzik boxes himself into a cornerback


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Outside of Brees and the tail-end of Mannings career, you don't find franchise-changing players in free agency that often, certainly not non-QB payers.  Sure it happens, but considering you're quibbling over players who will be our #2 cb, #3 or #4 WR and someone who may be a situational OLB for us is taking it to an extreme level. Those aren't signings that put you over the top and it's not how you build a team, the draft is.

 

And Brees/Manning both had unique situations. 

 

The Chargers had drafted Rivers and had the enviable situation of having two quality QB's.  How often does that happen?  Brees had many question marks that came with him before the Saints got him.  He wasn't a slam-dunk to become a future Hall of Famer.  Those saying Brady in the 6th was a "lucky" situation fail to admit that the Saints got a little lucky too. 

 

As for Manning, dude was coming off 4 neck surgeries.  Some people around here said they PREFERRED to have Sanchez at the time because Manning was old and came with too many question marks.  Yes, they were idiots for saying so then and now, but it speaks volumes.  How many people saw a record-setting season coming from Peyton at 37 with all his physical concerns?

 

This offseason was more the norm, with the likes of Chad Henne, Michael Vick and soon Matt Schaub topping the charts for best available QB's.  When teams get quality QB's, they don't tend to let them go unless they have the chance to get another, younger one like him immediately (like the Chargers with Rivers and Colts with Luck).

Edited by Jetsfan80
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Don't depend on other people's players.  Draft your own.  Every Super Bowl champion in the Free Agency era has been built that way. 

 

As for the "middle ground" people, yes, that is what Idzik has found.  The middle ground.  Getting quality players without succumbing to ridiculous demands by others.  Would it have been nice if we could have gotten an impact player on both sides of the ball?  Sure.  But Vontae chose to stay home.  The rest of the corners either didn't fit our system or wanted too much money for what they were worth.  Oh well.  Figure it out, Rex.

 

So, no Super Bowl champions in the Free Agency Era had any players that were on another team at one point OR had players that they drafted that they resigned? Or don't those guys count because you essentially own them for the entirety of their careers until you see fit to release them. They have no choice, right? 

 

Good, Bad or Indifferent the bulk of your team will be draftees. No one denies that. So I guess the secret to winning is DRAFT WELL. AND DRAFT A GOOD QB. What a heady concept. 

Edited by Gastineau Lives
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It was 600 yards, not 800. And half the season was Tebow, the other half was Orton.

 

Either way, he put up 600+, 1000+, 1000+. People are thinking up A LOT of excuses for this. It wasn't him getting the 1,000 yard seasons, it was Manning. It wasn't him getting that 600/8 season, it was Tebow. I suppose if you're hellbent on finding reasons why a guy sucks, then you'll find 'em. We could go through the same types of excuses for most of the top receivers in the league.

 

And, by the way, has anyone bothered to come up with excuses for his production in college yet?

 

  What are you talking about?    Tebow rushed for 600 yards,  I said 600 yards.   

WHo is saying he sucks?   He is what he is, a #2 or #3 WR.    

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The point isn't about Brady, it's about the impact that the draft has in the salary cap era. You aren't building a winning team via free agency and you certainly aren't building a super bowl caliber team that way.  

 

You are literally arguing with yourself. I never touched on the merit of a 6th round draft pick, I used Brady as an extreme example in how winning the draft equals winning in the regular and post-season. 

 

  Winning teams use the draft, free agency, undrafted guys, practice squad guys,  and more to win.  The Seahawks are a prime example of that.  They didn't sit still and they didn't just build through the draft.  The Patriots rarely do.    

 

  It's still a wait and see for me, but it seems Idzik is trying to do everything through the draft and not much else.

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Don't depend on other people's players.  Draft your own.  Every Super Bowl champion in the Free Agency era has been built that way. 

 

As for the "middle ground" people, yes, that is what Idzik has found.  The middle ground.  Getting quality players without succumbing to ridiculous demands by others.  Would it have been nice if we could have gotten an impact player on both sides of the ball?  Sure.  But Vontae chose to stay home.  The rest of the corners either didn't fit our system or wanted too much money for what they were worth.  Oh well.  Figure it out, Rex.

 

  I guess the Seahawks shouldn't have traded for Lynch or Harvin,  signed Bennet, Avrill, etc then.

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  Winning teams use the draft, free agency, undrafted guys, practice squad guys,  and more to win.  The Seahawks are a prime example of that.  They didn't sit still and they didn't just build through the draft.  The Patriots rarely do.    

 

  It's still a wait and see for me, but it seems Idzik is trying to do everything through the draft and not much else.

 

And the Jets aren't sitting still either, they're just not making the moves some of you want them to make.

 

They resigned Cumberland, Folk, Lankster, Walls, Douzable and Pace and then went and signed Eric Decker and Breno Giacomini. They also claimed Johnny Patrick off waivers as well.  I will imagine that before the draft, he will have resigned Colon and added a veteran receiver in addition to a few other middle to lower tier FAs for depth. With 12 draft picks this may, there's going to be a lot of new bodies on the team. 

 

This is pretty much Seattle and San Fran did: build the core of their team through the draft, collect depth so you don't have to overpay for leaving free agents and bolster the draft picks with smart value selections in free agency.  Some of their big moves were guys like trading for Marshawn Lynch, getting Mebane and Red Bryant and other guys who hadn't lived up to expectations.  Not signing $10 million dollar #2 CBs to play across from last year's top 10 pick.

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  I guess the Seahawks shouldn't have traded for Lynch or Harvin,  signed Bennet, Avrill, etc then.

 

Every successful team can pick out a few key signings.  Which is why Decker and Giacommini are nothing to spit at.  Those are good signings.  So was the trade for Chris Ivory.  But you don't just say "We have needs/wants at 8 positions.  We'll fill those with 6 or 7 free agents and call it a day" like the Browns or Raiders are doing.  They're trying to win with other people's players because they failed so miserably at drafting their own talent.

 

Look at the Seahawks starters and you tell me if they look like the type of roster Idzik is looking to build:

 

[NOTE:  For our purposes, I am assuming Sidney Rice is headed elsewhere.  If he doesn't, he takes Lockette's spot on the depth chart]

 

QB:  Russell Wilson (3rd round pick)

RB:  Marshawn Lynch (trade:  2011 4th round pick, 2012 conditional pick)

WR:  Doug Baldwin (UDFA)

WR:  Percy Harvin (trade:  1st and 7th rounder)

WR:  Ricardo Lockette (UDFA)

TE:  Zach Miller (Signed 2011 to 5-year deal)

LT:  Russell Okung (Top 10 pick)

LG:  James Carpenter (1st rounder)

C:  Max Unger (2nd rounder)

RG:  JR Sweezy (7th rounder)

RT:  Michael Bowie (7th rounder)

 

LDE:  Michael Bennett (UDFA)

DT:  Brandon Mebane (3rd rounder)

DT:  Tony McDaniel (UDFA, bounced between Jaguars and Dolphins, signed in 2013)

RDE:  Cliff Avrill (Signed as RFA in 2011)

OLB:  Malcolm Smith (7th rounder)

MLB:  Bobby Wagner (2nd rounder)

OLB:  Bruce Irvin (1st rounder)

CB:  Richard Sherman (5th rounder)

CB:  Byron Maxwell (6th rounder)

FS:  Earl Thomas (1st rounder)

SS:  Kam Chancellor (5th rounder)

 

 

Of all Seattle's starters on offense, only 1, Zach Miller, was a free agent signing.  Much like the Jets traded a 4th rounder for Chris Ivory, the Seahawks did the same to get Marshawn Lynch.  Harvin was a pickup via trade as well, but his health has prevented him from making any impact on a team that won the Super Bowl largely without him.

 

Of their starters on defense, only one, Cliff Avrill, was a significant free agent signing.  McDaniel was a scrap-heap pickup that worked out.  The rest they found via the draft.

 

The Seahawks entire back 7 was found via the draft.  Their entire offensive line was drafted.  That's impressive stuff.  You cannot even come close to arguing that this Seattle roster depended on free agents.  They depend on the draft.  Period. 

 

If the Seahawks are the model we're looking to duplicate, Idzik is right on target so far.  He's accumulating talent via the draft, filling a few needs where he can via free agency.  This is how you build a winner. 

Edited by Jetsfan80
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  I guess the Seahawks shouldn't have traded for Lynch or Harvin,  signed Bennet, Avrill, etc then.

 

The compensation the Seahawks gave to get Marshawn Lynch is similar to what we gave up to get Chris Ivory, a similar style runner.  One could argue that is also a good job by the GM in utilizing his draft picks; you usually trade for guys like that closer to the draft.  They aren't the kind of moves that go hand in hand with free agency.  They go hand in hand with the draft.

 

Harvin wasn't an impact performer for the Seahawks in their Super Bowl run.  You really want to use him as part of your argument?  That was also a trade for, you guessed it, draft picks.

 

Idzik has 12 draft picks this offseason.  I'd hazard a guess he might just be looking to make another deal when we get closer to the draft. 

Edited by Jetsfan80
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Although, Decker being the only "blockbuster" deal we make with all the money we have available, will make the Jets go into the Loser column in the "Who won and who lost in free agency"

 

Thankfully there isn't a trophy for winning or losing free agency.

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  Context.   Tebow sucked as a QB, but the guy was pretty damn good on the ground.  He had what, 600+ rushing yards.  Team didn't give a damn about him passing the ball, they worried about him running.  He's not RG3 or Vick or Newton, but he won some games with his legs.    Remember the Jets losing to them?  

 

   So it was some nice numbers, but saying Tebow sucked and Decker still had 8 TDs is stretching the truth.   Teams were more worried Tebow would run for a TD compared to throwing for one.   And so that's how it went and Decker took advantage.  Good for him, but people act like it was all Decker when it wasn't.

 

I remember Mark Sanchez and Eric Smith losing to them (the Broncos offense scored 10 freakin' points that day), but that's an entirely different argument for a different day.  In the end, Tebow was absolutely horrendously awful.  Do you not remember his disaster of a year with the Jets and him being out of the league ever since?

 

There seems to be nothing but excuses why supposedly none of Decker's accomplishments should count, because somehow none of it was ever his own doing, even when reality doesn't match up with the claims (e.g., crediting Welker and Julius Thomas for any degree of his success, despite Decker having similar production the prior year without either of them).

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:face:

 

Its playoffs or bust for Rex.

 

New Rex is toothless and castrated. The old Fat Rex would have challenged Bob Kraft and Belichick to a fist fight at the owners meeting when news of Revis signing in NE broke.

 

All Rex can do is sit back and fume. Rex wanted Revis back bad and Izzy vetoed him. Revis would have just about guaranteed the playoffs if Geno doesnt go Sanchez. To add insult to injury, Revis landed where Rex didnt want him to go. Everyone knows that Rex needs help on defense. Izzy claims hes all in with Rex but has pixxed off almost every FA. So much that theyre commenting about mixed signals to the media.

 

This time next year the Jets will have a new HC from Seattles coaching staff. Just watch.

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Its playoffs or bust for Rex.

 

New Rex is toothless and castrated. The old Fat Rex would have challenged Bob Kraft and Belichick to a fist fight at the owners meeting when news of Revis signing in NE broke.

 

All Rex can do is sit back and fume. Rex wanted Revis back bad and Izzy vetoed him. Revis would have just about guaranteed the playoffs if Geno doesnt go Sanchez. To add insult to injury, Revis landed where Rex didnt want him to go. Everyone knows that Rex needs help on defense. Izzy claims hes all in with Rex but has pixxed off almost every FA. So much that theyre commenting about mixed signals to the media.

 

This time next year the Jets will have a new HC from Seattles coaching staff. Just watch.

:yawn:

**** you're boring.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Glad to see that, after you were finished touting the brilliance your own beliefs, you supported the concept of it being such a "clear-headed, thoughtful-minded" viewpoint by going out of your way to discount even what the team has accomplished so far in FA solely because of your baseless belief that it was "damn lucky".

 

But please, tell us all more about what absolutely fair criticism that is, or how simply not blindly falling in line with such completely unfounded absurdities somehow must equate to viewing a grand total of one week of the offseason as "miracle work", which literally no one has come close to saying.

My only point was there are two sides to an argument and neither needs to be insulted for their beliefs.  Is that a good enough bumper sticker analogy for you?  I simply take exception to those being labeled as tin-foiled hat wearers for not being happy with his lack of progress. 

I wasn't touting the brilliance of my beliefs but nice try in dismissing my statement.

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http://turnonthejets.com/2014/03/patience-jets-fans-cant-grade-john-idzik-yet/

 

 

You are a New York Jets fan, and you have been for some time. Youare  used to seeing the team suffer heartbreak. Then, Rex Ryan and Mike Tannenbaum came to Florham Park and changed expectations. For once, it was expected that the Jets, behind an “ancient” philosophy of playing great defense and being able to run the ball, would compete for a Super Bowl…coming one win away from the big game back to back years only fueled that excitement.

 

The last three seasons have seen the Jets miss out on the playoffs despite being in contention every year Rex has been here. Tannenbaum butchered the salary cap, and now former Seahawks executive John Idzik was brought in to clean it up. Jets fans were excited because this was a change from a “shop till you drop” philosophy to a more measured approach that could potentially lead to sustainable contention. The belief was that, if Idzik could clean up the cap mess, the Jets could finally field a consistently successful team.

Idzik has spent the last year, in what was once described as a job that “couldn’t be given away”, doing exactly that. He traded franchise player Darrelle Revis for a first round pick (that became Defensive Rookie of The Year Sheldon Richardson) and what is now a 4th round pick. In a deep draft class, the Jets have a chance to draft as many as 12 potentially good players. Idzik wasn’t paying Revis $16M per season, especially when Ryan’s defense still finished number one in passing defense without Revis for most of the season. It was a business move, for sure, but here was Idzik showing faith in his head coach’s defensive acumen. Idzik believed that the Jets, and Rex’s defense, could survive without Revis. Gone are Santonio Holmes and Antonio Cromartie. Mark Sanchez, most likely, will follow shortly.

This cleared up a ridiculous amount of cap space. Yet, fans want to question why Idzik hasn’t spent money freely. In fact, they wanna know why Idzik won’t spend like Tannenbaum. This is made worse when players the Jets were “in” on sign elsewhere.

Revis, after being released and playing the media game perfectly, signed with the Patriots for $12M per season. Jets fans were outraged: why didn’t Idzik make an offer? How could he let Revis sign with the Pats? I admit I fell for it too. Brandon Pettigrew and Emmanuel Sanders sign elsewhere and Idzik gets bashed. One CB after another signs, and Jets fans wonder if Idzik knows what he’s doing.

It seems that he does. In the last year, he traded a 4th round pick for a feature running back and signed him to a 3 year/$6M deal. For comparisons sake, the Browns just paid Ben Tate $3.5M per season and the Colts traded a first round pick for Trent Richardson. He signed David Nelson, who was a contributor his first season. He, also, signed Mike Goodson who brought a different dimension to the Jets offense before tearing his ACL. Greg Salas and Zach Sudfeld were, also, quality additions that bolstered the depth of the roster. Willie Colon brought a nastiness to the Jets line, and he could be back with the team. He drafted Dee Milliner who, after turning a corner in Week 9, finished strong and looks ready to take that next step. He drafted Brian Winters, who ended the season on a high note as well. Then, he added his potential franchise quarterback (Geno Smith) with a second round pick and a defensive cornerstone in the aforementioned Richardson. Fans seemingly forget this because they want Idzik to spend.

Then, Idzik signs the top offensive free agent in wide receiver Eric Decker for a contract less than what everyone speculated. He arguably upgrades the RT position for half the price. Idzik, also, seems like he wants to make sure there’s enough cap space going forward to pay the Jets’ own players, like Muhammad Wilkerson and Jeremy Kerley. He’s already resigned Nick Folk, Leger Douzable, Jeff Cumberland, Darrin Walls and Ellis Lankster. Yet, there’s still panic.

New York Jets fans, breathe. I know that part of our fandom forces us to play armchair GM. This isn’t Madden, where you can sign everyone and not even worry about next season cause you can restart your franchise. There hasn’t been one move yet that Idzik has made that hasn’t been done diligently. Don’t fall into the trap of reading reports with anonymous sources, because Idzik operates in the Florham Fortress. No leaks spring from there. It’s March 16th. No Super Bowl was ever won by the team that won free agency. You can’t grade Idzik’s moves yet because he’s not done working.

Thank you. Well said. Give the man a chance , we have time , money and picks.

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Thank you. Well said. Give the man a chance , we have time , money and picks.

 

Money?  That won't stop the Pats.

 

Time?  Time passed by for all the top talent in FA.

 

Picks?  A good thing to address some needs but it won't be enough this year. 

 

And this false notion about being patient is just that.  False.  Mythical.

 

Idzik has been anything but patient.  He was linked to 9 CB prospects.  He was seriously linked to at least one WR.  He was heavily linked to a TE.  He couldn't sign any of them.  He did NOT take a wait-and-see approach.  He simply low-balled them and couldn't negotiate a deal with any of them.  And fans are trying to mask this with the word "patience".  It's actually "failure" to sign.  This has nothing to do with patience.  You could say that if he were not contacting anyone, BUT HE HAS!  BTW, add another RB to that list in MJD.  And now he reportedly passed on one of the best WR's in the NFL who's price has plummeted amid a recent gang-related story and his preference to play with Vick - that's having an upper hand in negotiations.  Oh, well.  I guess he didn't envision Desean as being one of his guys. 

 

But by all means, feel free to see his result with rose-colored glasses and bash those who are not satisfied as you stoically, proudly defend his short-comings by saying he has a plan.  Okay.  That's not the real story here.  It's a myth.

Edited by JXD
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lol ya name one good team that improves by just DRAFTING guys

 

It's not that you can't improve with the draft. It's just that:

 

1. We have too many weaknesses on our roster right now, you would think Idzik would use *some* of his resources to fix that before the draft but he stubbornly refuses to do so.

 

2. Draft picks are like opinions, everyone has them. Other teams are improving in this way as well, so missing out on almost every FA you covet while sitting on a pile of cash isn't helpful.

 

3. Despite what t0mShane might tell you, it is unreasonable to expect the Jets (or any team, really) to consistently find instant starters in the 4th-5th round and beyond.

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It's not that you can't improve with the draft. It's just that:

 

1. We have too many weaknesses on our roster right now, you would think Idzik would use *some* of his resources to fix that before the draft but he stubbornly refuses to do so.

 

2. Draft picks are like opinions, everyone has them. Other teams are improving in this way as well, so missing out on almost every FA you covet while sitting on a pile of cash isn't helpful.

 

3. Despite what t0mShane might tell you, it is unreasonable to expect the Jets (or any team, really) to consistently find instant starters in the 4th-5th round and beyond.

 

what has winning march done for the jets the past few years ?

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Patriots, Broncos and Giants all "won" March a lot more than we did.

 

#PoorlyRunFranchises

#IdzikKnowsBetter

 

if you could sign between the pats, giants broncos and jets, how much more do the jets have to pay you to sign you ?

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Yeah, if only we'd signed Captain Munnerlyn, all the other dominoes would have fallen.

 

Alternative off-season: sign all the guys we signed, plus Revis for 12 and Jackson for 8. Leaves 10M to sign draft picks and carry over the rest. Makes us an instant contender. Doesn't hamper us long-term as Revis would come off the books in 2015.

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