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EVERYTHING CHRIS JOHNSON: MERGED


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What do you mean I make it seems as if it doesn't count as that far from my point? I'm referring to the initially contract he gave to Goodson. He gave him $2.3 mil after playing $18 out of 48 games and not accomplishing much during those games. That's overpaying. When it time to give a RB like Johnson a contract why are we trying to give him $3 mil for a guy who played 48 games out of 48 games with an impressive resume along with still having the home run potiential? If you initially had no problem overpaying for Goodson at a time we were cash strapped why are we so iffy overpaying for Chris Johnson at a time we have tons of cap space? Answer that for me as it makes zero sense on Idzik's part.

As for Chris Ivory, yes he play 15 games LAST SEASON, but last season didn't get him the contract he currently playing under. He hardly played playing in 12 games out of 32, yet he cost a 4th round pick and $ome.

What did we expect him to bring to the table after consistent years of being injury prone and unproductive? Also going back to my initial post how can you give up that value to both Ivory and Goodson in a cap straps year but want to be cheap with In offering Johnson $3 mil? How can you justify that?

Neither of the contracts are overpaid contracts. Ivory got his contract based on potential and shown good on that so far. Goodson tore his knee and missed most of the season because of it. 

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Neither of the contracts are overpaid contracts. Ivory got his contract based on potential and shown good on that so far. Goodson tore his knee and missed most of the season because of it.

Your looking at this in hindsight. I'm just going by what they've done prior to signing hence why I've never brought up Goodson injury nor Ivory season as a Jet. Also if none of their contract or draft picks forfeited is considered overpaying then Idzik shouldn't have a problem giving Johnson $10 mil as that shouldn't being overpaying just going off your stance. As for as potential all players are paid for what they can potential do and Idzik has to get his head out of his ass to know what an healthy Johnson can potentially do for us and the price he would have to pay.

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Your looking at this in hindsight. I'm just going by what they've done prior to signing hence why I've never brought up Goodson injury nor Ivory season as a Jet. Also if none of their contract or draft picks forfeited is considered overpaying then Idzik shouldn't have a problem giving Johnson $10 mil as that shouldn't being overpaying just going off your stance. As for as potential all players are paid for what they can potential do and Idzik has to get his head out of his ass to know what an healthy Johnson can potentially do for us and the price he would have to pay.

Im not looking at it in hindsight. I just said that Ivory was signed based on his "potential". i never said you mentioned Goodson's injury, but you're not the only one I was speaking to about this with. I do believe that the mention of "overpay" is solely based on the result of Goodson last year.  

 

Idzik's problem giving Johnson $10 million doesn't seem to just be his problem. Johnson as of right now is still a free agent isn't he, and has been for some time.  I don't see teams jumping over themselves to "overpay" this dude. 

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What do you mean I make it seems as if it doesn't count as that far from my point? I'm referring to the initially contract he gave to Goodson. He gave him $2.3 mil after playing $18 out of 48 games and not accomplishing much during those games. That's overpaying. When it time to give a RB like Johnson a contract why are we trying to give him $3 mil for a guy who played 48 games out of 48 games with an impressive resume along with still having the home run potiential? If you initially had no problem overpaying for Goodson at a time we were cash strapped why are we so iffy overpaying for Chris Johnson at a time we have tons of cap space? Answer that for me as it makes zero sense on Idzik's part.

As for Chris Ivory, yes he play 15 games LAST SEASON, but last season didn't get him the contract he currently playing under. He hardly played playing in 12 games out of 32, yet he cost a 4th round pick and $ome.

What did we expect him to bring to the table after consistent years of being injury prone and unproductive? Also going back to my initial post how can you give up that value to both Ivory and Goodson in a cap straps year but want to be cheap with In offering Johnson $3 mil? How can you justify that?

 

Because a team look at a player and values what they think the player can be just like they look at what a player has been.  Sometimes injuries are just freak things.  Sometimes they're the results of someone who's just brittle and it'll continue.  But a veteran player, who gets a contract with a new team, is getting it based on what the team thinks he will do for the new team, not just what he did with the prior one.

 

 

Tell me how much sense it made for the Patriots to pick up Welker based on his prior 2-3 seasons.  They saw something in him (or thought they saw something in him) that they felt warranted more than his fantasy stats would otherwise indicate.  It was one of the few times they were right in this regard, but right they were.  Traded I think it was a 2nd and a 7th (someone can look it up) and a pretty significant contract, and I don't think the guy had started more than a couple of games in 3 years.

 

When the Jets extended Pouha years ago (think it was 3 years $6M) I thought it was ludicrous, but that's based on what we saw as fans. They got to see practices and felt he was worth more than what we got to see on the field.  And that signing may have saved 2 seasons due to Jenkins going down 2 AFCCG seasons in a row.

 

Ivory and Goodson were high upside players, still young enough where the tail end of their 3-year deals weren't expected to be dropoffs from the first year.  They were relatively low risk, as evidenced by their low signing bonuses and guarantees, but even that isn't zero risk.  If their history was filled with very productive, 16-start seasons each, then the total maximum amount of each deal would instead be the annual compensation.

 

CJ is going to be 29 or something, and wants to be paid for what he's done more than what he will do for us.  We need a glorified 3rd down back, not a 300-touch guy to get zero or negative yards carry after carry until he finally breaks one for 20 or 50 to bring his average up to 4ypc.  And history says he'll get progressively worse with each passing year.  That isn't worth $5M/year to a team that isn't desperate for him, and we're not.

 

I do like signing him, but if he wants to still get paid like a stud starter he can find another team.  Also if that's what he truly wants, I don't want him getting signed up too quickly where he second-guesses himself for signing.  Let him shop around, because we don't need him being disgruntled about his role/compensation.  He's going to go to the highest bidder.  I don't mind being the highest bidder, so long as that $ is commensurate with what we need rather than just repeating an inaccurate overstatement of how much cap space we have.

 

Also you're talking of Ivory's and Goodson's contracts as though both were fully guaranteed for all 3 seasons.  Goodson isn't going to see $7M from the Jets.

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Truthfully I think CJ can see a major uptick in his ypc here because of the way he'd be used.  It's those requisite plods up the gut into the heart of a defense's front 7 that drop his average down.  Using Ivory for the bulk of those carries, if CJ comes here, I wouldn't be surprised to see his ypc jump up into the 5 ypc range.  If he needs to carry the full load, including dozens of short-yardage carries, then it will be significantly lower.

 

Johnson will be getting a higher proportion of his carries on plays where we could either pass or run.  On short yardage where we're almost assuredly running (and everyone probably knows it) those carries will go to Ivory or Geno will keep it.  But on 2nd & 6 type downs where we could pass or run, and the defense can't just crowd the line, Johnson should (theoretically) see more daylight than on those short yardage/goal line carries where he gets 1 yard, 0 yards, or loses yardage outright.

 

Also just lessening the workload should help. It's a rough position.

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Chris Johnson Seeking 2 years, $10M

By Scott Salmon @ScottSalmon48 on Apr 16 2014, 5:14a 76

20140114_kkt_sv7_131.0_standard_709.0.jp

Kim Klement-USA TODAY Sports

Per Erika Esola:

This information is coming from a source close within Chris Johnson's camp. John Idzik's number of $3-4M is pretty much what I've been saying is appropriate, although I would personally like to keep it under $3.5M per year. For all of you that have said Idzik is low-balling Johnson, I think this proves that's false. The current market rate for a starting running back is roughly $3M per year. Idzik is offering slightly more than that, and Johnson is seeking a good chunk more.

As Esola originally noted, Johnson is planning on checking out other teams, such as theNew York Giants. I sincerely doubt he gets $5M/per from another team, but we'll see. How much per year are you willing to go up to get Johnson?

EDIT: Kristian Dyer has confirmed that Idzik offered a multi-year deal, we're looking at $3-4M per, as Esola said.

Haha. Yeah, ok.

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Your looking at this in hindsight. I'm just going by what they've done prior to signing hence why I've never brought up Goodson injury nor Ivory season as a Jet. Also if none of their contract or draft picks forfeited is considered overpaying then Idzik shouldn't have a problem giving Johnson $10 mil as that shouldn't being overpaying just going off your stance. As for as potential all players are paid for what they can potential do and Idzik has to get his head out of his ass to know what an healthy Johnson can potentially do for us and the price he would have to pay.

You make it sound like Goodson is some schmuck who Idzik rubbed a crystal ball and looked at a sheet of combine measurements and said, this guy's a diamond in a rough. Not really the case. 

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You make it sound like Goodson is some schmuck who Idzik rubbed a crystal ball and looked at a sheet of combine measurements and said, this guy's a diamond in a rough. Not really the case. 

 

He didn't have a criminal record and all he was doing was sitting in a car being wasted. The buddy he was hanging out with was showing off his illegal pistol, and put it down in the car rather than keeping it on his person, thereby making it the possession of everyone in the car.  That may be the law, but everyone knows it wasn't Goodson's gun, and it's not like he was shooting it either.  He was wasted, had a user-not-seller amount of weed on him, and passed out & then puked on himself.  For that he was suspended for 4 games.  After that he missed 11+ games because he busted both his ACL and MCL.  

 

There were no "warning signs" for either of these things.

 

Had Goodson missed the season because of one nagging injury followed by another, that would be one thing.  But tearing two knee ligaments on 1 play? How the hell can you blame any GM for that happening to any player?  That can happen to rock-solid-healthy players just as much as ones with more injury-filled histories.

 

Ultimately the move is being rationalized as awful, and that it was badly spent money, because he busted an ACL and MCL, since that's the reason he missed most of the season.  Not for getting wasted with a childhood buddy one night.

Truth is I actually feel kind of bad for Goodson.  This isn't (to me) one of those, "If you can't do the time don't commit the crime" things.  On paper, he was in possession of a weapon and drugs.  In reality, it seems his crime is being a harmless knucklehead while intoxicated.

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He didn't have a criminal record and all he was doing was sitting in a car being wasted. The buddy he was hanging out with was showing off his illegal pistol, and put it down in the car rather than keeping it on his person, thereby making it the possession of everyone in the car.  That may be the law, but everyone knows it wasn't Goodson's gun, and it's not like he was shooting it either.  He was wasted, had a user-not-seller amount of weed on him, and passed out & then puked on himself.  For that he was suspended for 4 games.  After that he missed 11+ games because he busted both his ACL and MCL.  

 

There were no "warning signs" for either of these things.

 

Had Goodson missed the season because of one nagging injury followed by another, that would be one thing.  But tearing two knee ligaments on 1 play? How the hell can you blame any GM for that happening to any player?  That can happen to rock-solid-healthy players just as much as ones with more injury-filled histories.

 

Ultimately the move is being rationalized as awful, and that it was badly spent money, because he busted an ACL and MCL, since that's the reason he missed most of the season.  Not for getting wasted with a childhood buddy one night.

Truth is I actually feel kind of bad for Goodson.  This isn't (to me) one of those, "If you can't do the time don't commit the crime" things.  On paper, he was in possession of a weapon and drugs.  In reality, it seems his crime is being a harmless knucklehead while intoxicated.

 

 

Agree completely. We've all been there  :D

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Based off what I said not sure how you comprehended that at all.

To be honest, the vibe I was getting from your posts was that Idzik overpaid for Goodson. As Sperm pointed out, it was a lot of wrong place/wrong time. It's not fair to judge in hindsight.  At the time of the signing, you had a kid who was a Heisman contender in a year where Idzik had very little money to spend. Does Idzik look into Goodson this year, after the Powell/Ivory combo we just saw? No, probably not. But the circumstances changed considerably between now, and then. Was Goodson worth the money we paid him in 2013 to fill out a very shotty group of backs and offense as a whole? Yes.

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3e15aaea8b80ba51ce26067869f9fed8_normal.

Erika Esola @emesolaFollow

So basically with the information I've gathered, the #Jets and Chris Johnson are about $2-4 million apart. #JetsTwitter

4:03 AM - 16 Apr 2014

3e15aaea8b80ba51ce26067869f9fed8_normal.Erika Esola @emesolaFollow

Chris Johnson is seeking approximately 2 years, $10 million. Idzik is not budging over $3-4 mil/year it seems. #Jets #JetsTwitter

3:59 AM - 16 Apr 2014

What a joke if true. Over $1M per?
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Idzik doesn't want to pay a running back $5 million a year. Why is that a hard thing for people to accept?

Because they're old and don't realize that the workhorse rb position died over 5 years ago. They're also enamored with recognizable names like toddlers staring at jingling keys.

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Because a team look at a player and values what they think the player can be just like they look at what a player has been.  Sometimes injuries are just freak things.  Sometimes they're the results of someone who's just brittle and it'll continue.  But a veteran player, who gets a contract with a new team, is getting it based on what the team thinks he will do for the new team, not just what he did with the prior one.

 

 

Tell me how much sense it made for the Patriots to pick up Welker based on his prior 2-3 seasons.  They saw something in him (or thought they saw something in him) that they felt warranted more than his fantasy stats would otherwise indicate.  It was one of the few times they were right in this regard, but right they were.  Traded I think it was a 2nd and a 7th (someone can look it up) and a pretty significant contract, and I don't think the guy had started more than a couple of games in 3 years.

 

When the Jets extended Pouha years ago (think it was 3 years $6M) I thought it was ludicrous, but that's based on what we saw as fans. They got to see practices and felt he was worth more than what we got to see on the field.  And that signing may have saved 2 seasons due to Jenkins going down 2 AFCCG seasons in a row.

 

Ivory and Goodson were high upside players, still young enough where the tail end of their 3-year deals weren't expected to be dropoffs from the first year.  They were relatively low risk, as evidenced by their low signing bonuses and guarantees, but even that isn't zero risk.  If their history was filled with very productive, 16-start seasons each, then the total maximum amount of each deal would instead be the annual compensation.

 

CJ is going to be 29 or something, and wants to be paid for what he's done more than what he will do for us.  We need a glorified 3rd down back, not a 300-touch guy to get zero or negative yards carry after carry until he finally breaks one for 20 or 50 to bring his average up to 4ypc.  And history says he'll get progressively worse with each passing year.  That isn't worth $5M/year to a team that isn't desperate for him, and we're not.

 

I do like signing him, but if he wants to still get paid like a stud starter he can find another team.  Also if that's what he truly wants, I don't want him getting signed up too quickly where he second-guesses himself for signing.  Let him shop around, because we don't need him being disgruntled about his role/compensation.  He's going to go to the highest bidder.  I don't mind being the highest bidder, so long as that $ is commensurate with what we need rather than just repeating an inaccurate overstatement of how much cap space we have.

 

Also you're talking of Ivory's and Goodson's contracts as though both were fully guaranteed for all 3 seasons.  Goodson isn't going to see $7M from the Jets.

If Chris Johnson isn't going to be be what we project him to be upon signing then he's not going to see $10 mil from the Jets similar to how Goodson wasn't going to see $7 mil from the Jets. Similar to what you said let's not act like Johnson's contract is fully guaranteed as well for 2 seasons if he were to sign for that figure. That contract is essentially a 1 year $5 mil contract with a team option. Also 28 isn't that old for a player of CJ's playing style.

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To be honest, the vibe I was getting from your posts was that Idzik overpaid for Goodson. As Sperm pointed out, it was a lot of wrong place/wrong time. It's not fair to judge in hindsight.  At the time of the signing, you had a kid who was a Heisman contender in a year where Idzik had very little money to spend. Does Idzik look into Goodson this year, after the Powell/Ivory combo we just saw? No, probably not. But the circumstances changed considerably between now, and then. Was Goodson worth the money we paid him in 2013 to fill out a very shotty group of backs and offense as a whole? Yes.

My initialed point was if you gave up a 3 year $10 mil ($4 mil in incentives) along with a 4th round pick for Ivory and 3 years for $2.3 per to Goodson at a time we were cash strap in the 2013 season, how can you register paying CJ 2 years - $10 mil as overpaying when you have $28 mil? If that's the case and CJ is only worth $3 mil like we offered then in essence we overpaid for both Ivory and Goodson, as CJ at an older age is more durable, productive and explosive then they are.

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My initialed point was if you gave up a 3 year $10 mil ($4 mil in incentives) along with a 4th round pick for Ivory and 3 years for $2.3 per to Goodson at a time we were cash strap in the 2013 season, how can you register paying CJ 2 years - $10 mil as overpaying when you have $28 mil? If that's the case and CJ is only worth $3 mil like we offered then in essence we overpaid for both Ivory and Goodson, as CJ at an older age is more durable, productive and explosive then they are.

Essentially, because by paying him what he's asking, you're paying a RB $5mm, per. Doing my best to read between the lines of the philosophy here, he doesn't believe a RB is worth that much. And on the other hand, I don't think he wants him for 3 years, $14. It looks to me like both sides have a $5/year number in mind and neither want to cross it, knowing what the significance of it is.

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If Chris Johnson isn't going to be be what we project him to be upon signing then he's not going to see $10 mil from the Jets similar to how Goodson wasn't going to see $7 mil from the Jets. Similar to what you said let's not act like Johnson's contract is fully guaranteed as well for 2 seasons if he were to sign for that figure. That contract is essentially a 1 year $5 mil contract with a team option. Also 28 isn't that old for a player of CJ's playing style.

So are you agreeing that its pretty much about guaranteed money? And no one is acting like Johnson's contract is fully guaranteed. The higher the overall contract, we can expect the higher in guaranteed money. This is not about his contract, this is about people acting as if Goodson and Ivory were overpaid. 

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When I call Powell the potential odd man out, I mean it in terms of touches, not a roster spot.

You cut Goodson if his knee or legal troubles are going to limit him on the field. The cap savings (which I'm pretty sure is less than $500k after his restructure) are completely inconsequential. If he can be the player the Jets thought they were originally signing, he's worth keeping.

 

According to overthecap it's just under 750k, but if he can make a comeback and be that explosive RB we wanted him to be then by all means, keep him. I just don't see it happening, or him getting the touches he would need if we bring in CJ.

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Hope they don't cave in to CJ's demands. Would be the kind of deal Tannenbaum would have done.

 

Look at the deal MJD got from the Raiders - $1.2 million guaranteed on a $7.5 mil deal over 3 years -  that's the sort of ball park figure that exists for a running back that is past his prime. Heck, i would have rather had MJD anyway because he plays like he gives a sh*t...unlike CJ who gives up if he can't find a crease

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What is your point? Since we overpaid for these two I don't see the reason why Chris Johnson contract as you said "would kill the Jets cap". You give up a 4th round pick and give out $10 mil to Ivory along with pay Goodson an average of $2.3 mil per why the hell can't we sign Chris Johnson for $5 mil with $28 mil in cap space. Don't get where some are going with this.

 

I never said "would kill the Jets cap". Thats someone else you are quoting. And your idea of paying CJ 5m just cuz Ivory and Goodson got paid is totally wrong. Using this same logic, if Manning gets released this yr then the Ravens should grab him and pay him $25mil...just cuz they overpaid Flacco. You see how flawed ur idea is? According to you, we have two overpaid RBs and you want to add to it with another overpaid RB in CJ0.5k.

 

Ivory is getting $2mil per. Which other starting RB is making less then $2mil n not in his rookie deal? Incentives need to be earned, not a given. You wanna pay CJ more than what you are paying Ivory, Goodson, and Powell combined?

 

I get u want CJ, and if had said lets pay the 5mil since we have the space and we are not mortgaging the future by slightly overpaying, I wouldn't have disagreed with u. But the fact that u think Ivory n Goodson are overpaid so lets overpay a 3rd RB is where I have an issue with the theory. I want CJ. I hope Idzik pays him $8mil for 2 yr and guarantee $6mil out of it ($4mil bonus, $2mil 2014 base salary). I don't see why CJ would walk away from $6 mil guaranteed, even if he breaks a leg walking out of the office.

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What exactly is that link illustrating? Don't think that's high much they get paid and something to do with their base salary.

2014 base salaries. Bonus is obviously not included. Essentially, $5 million is Marshawn Lynch money. Should we pay CJ that type of money? $4 million and less has equal caliber talent to Johnson, some even better. That was kind of my point.

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