Westhoff speaketh

[ZachEY]

Yeah, I guess. But I thought the receivers overall as a group there were all really good. Amaro's going to take some time to get with it. 

 

I'm probably an idiot, but I think Stephen Hill has a good year.

[sirlancemehlot]

Sanchez would have been better if we hadn't drafted Mohammed Wilkerson.  Discuss.

[Jetsfan80]

Sanchez would have been better if we hadn't drafted Mohammed Wilkerson.  Discuss.

 

Sanchez would have been better if he had three Megatrons.  We shoulda done that for him.

[sirlancemehlot]

Also, Richardson is overrated.  And Pennington is underrated.  Discuss.

[#27TheDominator]

I'm probably an idiot, but I think Stephen Hill has a good year.

 

 

There are a few of us.  We are very dumb.  Define good.  I am hoping for 45/650. 

[Matt39]

There are a few of us. We are very dumb. Define good. I am hoping for 45/650.

That number you listed being good is heavily dependent on how good our running game is.

[roscoeword]

I have an observation which I thought might belong in this thread - considering this threat has no real topic to it.  My observation is that I felt that the Jets defense was better off when the other team had a third and 1 or two, and not a  third and long, because if it was third and short they would more likely try to run it, and we were great against the run. But if they passed, it was always a first down against our secondary, so I was feeling we were better off when the opposing offense gets 7 yards on first down, and then hope they try to run it twice, and that's our best shot at stopping them from getting a first down. Is that just me?

[#27TheDominator]

That number you listed being good is heavily dependent on how good our running game is.

 

It is probably even more dependent upon Geno.  No matter how good or bad the running game, I would be satisfied with those numbers from Hill on a personal level. His person, not mine.  As far as his progression goes, I had hoped for something in the 35/500 range for 2013 and might have hoped for more like 50/750 range for 2014, but with his poor/injured 2013 I adjusted downward a bit.  

[Matt39]

It is probably even more dependent upon Geno. No matter how good or bad the running game, I would be satisfied with those numbers from Hill on a personal level. His person, not mine. As far as his progression goes, I had hoped for something in the 35/500 range for 2013 and might have hoped for more like 50/750 range for 2014, but with his poor/injured 2013 I adjusted downward a bit.

True.

Off topic but how did you feel about Reed getting into the hall?

[#27TheDominator]

True.

Off topic but how did you feel about Reed getting into the hall?

 

I didn't really think about it too much.  I don't have a problem with it, but I wouldn't have been upset if he didn't make it either.  Looking at his numbers you'd have to wonder how much he deserves it over say, Rison. Reed was more consistent and played longer, but he didn't put up 48 TDs in 4 years either.  Or, as Sperm would say... COMPILER!

[#27TheDominator]

True.

Off topic but how did you feel about Reed getting into the hall?

 

 

PS:

1. What are your feelings on it?

2. Tim Brown!

3. There was a topic?

[Matt39]

I didn't really think about it too much. I don't have a problem with it, but I wouldn't have been upset if he didn't make it either. Looking at his numbers you'd have to wonder how much he deserves it over say, Rison. Reed was more consistent and played longer, but he didn't put up 48 TDs in 4 years either. Or, as Sperm would say... COMPILER!

Ha. Andre Rison was the first guy I thought of too.

[#27TheDominator]

Ha. Andre Rison was the first guy I thought of too.

******* awesome.

 

 

 

Andre Rison Wants To Open The Andre Rison Hall Of Fame

Posted by NBC Sports on June 9, 2009, 1:16 PM EDT

Andre Rison never was one for modesty during his 12-year NFL career, and his high opinion of himself hasn’t dimmed at all since retirement.

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution caught up with him for an interview over the weekend, which we saw at Shutdown Corner, and they asked Rison about his football legacy. The answer did not disappoint.

“Best receiver to ever play the game. I can’t show my highlights because I don’t own NFL Films, but all my coaches in college, in high school, in junior college, they all told me I could be the best. But they must’ve lied because that title was already given to Jerry Rice. Just because you have stats doesn’t mean you’re the best. Can’t nobody tell me that Andre Reed isn’t better than Jerry Rice. I’m seeing cornerbacks on the 75th anniversary team that I used to demolish. But I’m coming out with my own hall of fame.”

It’s a safe bet that Andre Rison would select Andre Rison to give his induction speech.

Rison finished his career with 743 catches for 10,205 yards and 84 touchdowns. He ranks in the Top 30 all-time in each of those categories, but that doesn’t mean he should be in the Hall of Fame. Outside of a brilliant five year run for the Falcons from 1990-1994, though, he wasn’t often among the league’s best wideouts during his career, which also featured stops with the Colts, Browns, Packers, Jaguars, Chiefs and Raiders.

Rison also told the AJC that he’s written a book called “Wide Open.” He describes it as a “show-and-tell book” that calls “aces how they are.” He may also fall short of a Pulitzer, but that’s sure to be an entertaining read.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/06/09/andre-rison-wants-to-open-the-andre-rison-hall-of-fame/

 

Even the timely typo where the author inserts Reed instead of Rison in the Rice comparision. 

[Matt39]

PS:

1. What are your feelings on it?

2. Tim Brown!

3. There was a topic?

 

I dont mind Reed being in considering Monk is in(Clark was better). Tim Brown was never a HOF'er to me and that Jets game where he basically brought his mailman on the field to celebrate 10k yards will always bother me.

 

I think the lovable losers tag helped Reed honestly. He was always a good player...but with him getting in now a lot of current guys are going to get their cases pleaded. Is Ochocinco a HOF'er? Boldin? Fitzgerald?

 

Hell Smith and Mccardell have Andre Reed like numbers.

[ZachEY]

There are a few of us.  We are very dumb.  Define good.  I am hoping for 45/650. 

 

I really don't know what "good" looks like numbers wise right now, but I'd say that it he plays the full season, makes a handful of big plays, and becomes a fairly reliable target and we're left with WR not being a huge need going into the off season.  That would be good.

[#27TheDominator]

I really don't know what "good" looks like numbers wise right now, but I'd say that it he plays the full season, makes a handful of big plays, and becomes a fairly reliable target and we're left with WR not being a huge need going into the off season.  That would be good.

 

By that criteria there is a close to 100% chance that we will be fighting about it again next offseason!

[SoFlaJets]

After watching Chris Johnson's interview I have to say it: He should be saying prayers of thanks every night that he has a career in football because he wouldn't be able to work at Burger King otherwise. Sorry. My wife looked at me and said "That's not very nice-IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY..."

[SoFlaJets]

So now the Jets' defense is responsible for Sanchez being terrible? From all the coaches to all the other players, is there anyone ever employed by the Jets who ISN'T responsible for this kid being a bad QB? I mean, other than Sanchez himself, since he's apparently the only one who's blameless.

I ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT HAVING TO PRACTICE(sorry caps) every day against a guy like Revis in his prime, a guy who cuts off half of the field DID hurt Sanchez. Brady is even having trouble completing passes to his side up there from the initial reports i read. The difference between Brady and Sanchez doesn't even need to be made but Revis can disrupt a QB and WR's chemistry. Of course, that is all on the head coach,s fat head. Rex probably always was secretly rooting for "his' defenses over Schotty's O anyway-so he wouldn't have Revis sit out vs the 1st team offense.

[SoFlaJets]

Holy crap...not blaming our defense for Sanchez's suckage.  Blaming our HC for being so defense-centric that he doesn't give a young, developing QB a fair shot at learning.  A big gnarly defense with exotic blitz packages and awkward alignments is great to have, don't get me wrong, but the emphasis should be in developing a franchise QB--at least if you want a realistic chance at winning a Superbowl.  When Matt Ryan was drafted he was immediately made the priority and surrounded with talented lineman and receivers to give him the best opportunity to be successful.  We draft defense every year, have a mediocre line, our #1 WR is #2 WR quality and our coach glows when his defense shuts down the O in a scrimmage.  It's a problem for me.  It doesn't make Geno better.  It makes him run for his life and second guess his throws.  Trial by fire should come after a QB has learned to compete at the pro level.  I think we're doing it wrong.  Happened to Sanchez, will likely happen with Geno and anyone else brought in as a rookie and thrown to the wolves.  

Holy crap-like minds-look at my post just above this -I always thought the same thing.

[Sperm Edwards]

I ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT HAVING TO PRACTICE(sorry caps) every day against a guy like Revis in his prime, a guy who cuts off half of the field DID hurt Sanchez. Brady is even having trouble completing passes to his side up there from the initial reports i read. The difference between Brady and Sanchez doesn't even need to be made but Revis can disrupt a QB and WR's chemistry. Of course, that is all on the head coach,s fat head. Rex probably always was secretly rooting for "his' defenses over Schotty's O anyway-so he wouldn't have Revis sit out vs the 1st team offense.

 

Sorry I just disagree. If anything it should have helped Sanchez for a couple of reasons.  First, he won't face anyone that good in real games. Second, it should train him to not lock into his primary receiver. Third, Revis didn't cover half the field he covered 1 receiver doing his Revis Island thing. He wasn't in zone moving around like a safety gravitating towards wherever the play looks like it's heading. He was on one guy like glue, meaning he's not on anyone else. It should have trained him well to utilize his second and third targets and more quickly go through his progressions out of necessity.

 

Problem is Sanchez has no head for the NFL game. If his guy is wide open (Braylon deep, etc.) he can get it in the vicinity and it'll be as good as being on-target. Also once in a while he really does thread the needle (throw enough passes and the law of averages says some will be on target). But he's a bad QB because he's too stupid, takes too long to process what he's seeing, and is inaccurate (particularly with pressure on him, which he's not even seeing in camp yet with these 7-on-7's he's done at least ok in so far). 

 

If what you're claiming is true then Brady is about to have the worst year of his career when attempting to hit whoever is covered by the opposition's LCB because that's where Revis is firmly planted in NE; the rest of Brady's game will remain unchanged, though.  This is your prediction?

 

The post you say you're "like minds" with says outright that he doesn't blame the defense for Sanchez's suckage. However you are doing just that.

 

And saying Sanchez wasn't surrounded with anyone talented - on the OL in particular, compared to Atlanta - is contrary to actual history. He was "surrounded" by a 26 year-old former #3 overall pick who already had a pro bowl season under his belt (with Derek Anderson delivering the rock); a rock-solid #2 in Cotchery; a #1 draft pick TE in Keller; good enough RBs (Jones-Leon-Greene, then LT). And a year later the incumbent SB MVP (also a #1 draft pick himself) still on his rookie deal, meaning he was playing for a long-term contract (and who was the perfect team soldier for the entirety of that season).  Oh yeah, and he walked right into better OL than Atlanta's had in their entire franchise history.

 

Face it. The kid was just horrible. If the team around him was so much less successful it would have been more apparent and he'd have been benched long ago. Plus he was drafted so high (and paid so much as a #5 overall pick under the old CBA) that the team - Rex and Tannenbaum both share blame - went all-in on him for years no matter how he played. That, and he probably does legitimately look good in practice and would tease every now & then in live games. But in the end, he's still a bad QB and was always going to be. Revis didn't ruin him and Ryan didn't ruin him and Schottenheimer (or Sparano) didn't ruin him. He was pre-ruined, like Joey Harrington. And that would have been his career if he was taken by the mid-2000s Lions instead of the late-2000s Jets.

[SoFlaJets]

Do I think Sanchez never got any better? Yes, Do I think he was a crappy QB? Yes Did he and Rex and Mike T as well as Woody Johnson almost drive me away from football altogether? Yes.  Do I think that Sanchez wasn't helped by the head coach's defensive mind set? Yes to that one too. You see it isn't always all black and white, there are many factors involved in what became of Mark Sanchez. One of which in my humble opinion was that the guy was having a lot of trouble getting better because Rex's defenses were ALWAYS better than the offenses and the defensive-minded head coach has no idea about how to rectify the off kilter team he runs. STILL...Just look at the last green on white scrimmage and see which side won. I don't think they were able to get even one into the end zone. What we see with this head coach is a guy who is STILL as clueless today about coaching the offensive side of the game as he was 15 years ago running the Baltimore Ravens defensive line.

 

I just don't see the Jets ever being able to win the championship with this kind of leadership

[ZachEY]

So, if I'm to understand the current thought process, a QB is benefited more by having a quality back-up who threatens to take his job than he is by playing against a quality defense in practice?

[Larz]

So, if I'm to understand the current thought process, a QB is benefited more by having a quality back-up who threatens to take his job than he is by playing against a quality defense in practice?

 

what about weapinz ?

[ZachEY]

what about weapinz ?

 

This is a trick question, I'm sure.

[Sperm Edwards]

Do I think Sanchez never got any better? Yes, Do I think he was a crappy QB? Yes Did he and Rex and Mike T as well as Woody Johnson almost drive me away from football altogether? Yes.  Do I think that Sanchez wasn't helped by the head coach's defensive mind set? Yes to that one too. You see it isn't always all black and white, there are many factors involved in what became of Mark Sanchez. One of which in my humble opinion was that the guy was having a lot of trouble getting better because Rex's defenses were ALWAYS better than the offenses and the defensive-minded head coach has no idea about how to rectify the off kilter team he runs. STILL...Just look at the last green on white scrimmage and see which side won. I don't think they were able to get even one into the end zone. What we see with this head coach is a guy who is STILL as clueless today about coaching the offensive side of the game as he was 15 years ago running the Baltimore Ravens defensive line.

 

I just don't see the Jets ever being able to win the championship with this kind of leadership

Brother, I just don't agree. There are dozens of QBs who could have succeeded with the offense Sanchez had around him. The Jets offense was outmatched by the defense because the offense was QB'd by Mark Sanchez. The best OL in the NFL, a top running game (technically THE top running game, in 2009), and ample receiving targets. Oh yeah, and probably the best special teams unit giving routinely favorable field position. Sanchez was (and is) just a terrible QB.

If you want to criticize Ryan by saying he knows nothing about offense, you'd do better by harping on about how he had way too much faith in Sanchez because he wouldn't know a bad QB if he saw one...right in front of his face, every practice, for 5 years.

Beyond those things you feel you've seen, all I can say is people see what they want to see. For example, I saw in Sanchez a QB that was not develop-able into a really good QB that is even a semi-consistent asset to his team.

[sirlancemehlot]

Brother, I just don't agree. There are dozens of QBs who could have succeeded with the offense Sanchez had around him. The Jets offense was outmatched by the defense because the offense was QB'd by Mark Sanchez. The best OL in the NFL, a top running game (technically THE top running game, in 2009), and ample receiving targets. Oh yeah, and probably the best special teams unit giving routinely favorable field position. Sanchez was (and is) just a terrible QB.

If you want to criticize Ryan by saying he knows nothing about offense, you'd do better by harping on about how he had way too much faith in Sanchez because he wouldn't know a bad QB if he saw one...right in front of his face, every practice, for 5 years.

Beyond those things you feel you've seen, all I can say is people see what they want to see. For example, I saw in Sanchez a QB that was not develop-able into a really good QB that is even a semi-consistent asset to his team.

The good OL and receivers and backs you mentioned made Sanchez better.  AFCCG seasons better.  Had those players remained or the offense been afforded similar talent, then even a mediocre-to-worse Sanchez could have success here.  But forgetting Sanchez for a moment, the team's record got worse as the teams offense got worse year by year under Rex Ryan.  Ultimately Geno wound up with the same awful numbers and ugly picks as Sanchez in his last year.  8-8 was a gift, in the end.  Since Idzik has taken the reigns, there seems to be a revival in the offensive side of the ball.  Hopefully Geno has more success with some talent surrounding him.  The last three seasons the offense has been barren, and Rex has been just fine with that.  There is a problem that's been born out in won/loss record as well offensive performance.  Sanchez or no Sanchez, this is about Rex and his unbalanced coaching of an unbalanced team.  The more he crows about his defense, the more childish he seems.  Again, I think Idzik could be the cure.  If not, Morninweg just might be Idzik's long-term plan at HC.

[Bugg]

Brother, I just don't agree. There are dozens of QBs who could have succeeded with the offense Sanchez had around him. The Jets offense was outmatched by the defense because the offense was QB'd by Mark Sanchez. The best OL in the NFL, a top running game (technically THE top running game, in 2009), and ample receiving targets. Oh yeah, and probably the best special teams unit giving routinely favorable field position. Sanchez was (and is) just a terrible QB.

If you want to criticize Ryan by saying he knows nothing about offense, you'd do better by harping on about how he had way too much faith in Sanchez because he wouldn't know a bad QB if he saw one...right in front of his face, every practice, for 5 years.

Beyond those things you feel you've seen, all I can say is people see what they want to see. For example, I saw in Sanchez a QB that was not develop-able into a really good QB that is even a semi-consistent asset to his team.

All fair. You cannot make a turkey dinner out of turkey...

Simply the talent wasn't there. They blew a draft pick. whether that was Bradway, Tannenbaum, Woody, who knows.Mangini's final piece of screwing them over.

[Sperm Edwards]

The good OL and receivers and backs you mentioned made Sanchez better.  AFCCG seasons better.  Had those players remained or the offense been afforded similar talent, then even a mediocre-to-worse Sanchez could have success here.  But forgetting Sanchez for a moment, the team's record got worse as the teams offense got worse year by year under Rex Ryan.  Ultimately Geno wound up with the same awful numbers and ugly picks as Sanchez in his last year.  8-8 was a gift, in the end.  Since Idzik has taken the reigns, there seems to be a revival in the offensive side of the ball.  Hopefully Geno has more success with some talent surrounding him.  The last three seasons the offense has been barren, and Rex has been just fine with that.  There is a problem that's been born out in won/loss record as well offensive performance.  Sanchez or no Sanchez, this is about Rex and his unbalanced coaching of an unbalanced team.  The more he crows about his defense, the more childish he seems.  Again, I think Idzik could be the cure.  If not, Morninweg just might be Idzik's long-term plan at HC.

And if that's the case then that's the case. But I don't know where you make the leap from that Sanchez was any good his first 2 years, and therefore would have been better still in year 3 if only the Jets held onto Braylon Edwards. He was horrible both seasons. Running the ball so often hid a lot of how bad he was. When they opened up the offense for him in year 3 he turned the ball over 26x. And spare me the missing parts. QBs have had plenty of success with less to work with than Greene/LT, Holmes, Keller, and Plaxico.

Tell me about the improvements at WR as Tom Brady's career progressed. Watched Troy Brown wither away to being less productive than the terrible terrible Plaxico, Deion Branch was their #1 with 800 yards and 3 TDs catching passes from a HOF QB, Daniel Graham, David Givens, Antowain Smith, Bethel Johnson...are you freaking kidding me? Who else did they pick up? JJ Stokes, Dedric Ward, 35 year old Larry Centers... Why didn't Brady fall flat on his face like Sanchez? Because cheating aside, as QBs go, he's awesome and Sanchez is garbage. But if we had that lineup on offense you'd be listing those NE offensive players and using them as the excuse as to why Sanchez was unsuccessful. Hell, you're doing it now despite actually BETTER players.

Not that Ryan is or was the freaking GM in the first place, in case you were still somehow unaware, but Sanchez was given plenty to succeed with. When a receiver is open a receiver is open. When he's covered he's covered. And with Sanchez you'd never have known. I'm fairly certain the coaching staff drilled this stuff over & over but c'mon there's no getting into that head of his.

To hear some fans tell the story, the Jets never put a decent OL on the field, never picked up any receivers that had success elsewhere, never drafted anyone on offense at all, and never made any attempt to coach Sanchez. They just sent him onto the field, on his own, with garbage year after year. His OCs those first 4 years - however lacking they may have been - never had any success with any other QBs before or after Sanchez, and that's how Ryan likes it because it makes his defense look better in practice. lol, do I have that right?

A lot of you guys have made me like our head coach much better than I otherwise would have (or did). Congratulations.

[Sperm Edwards]

All fair. You cannot make a turkey dinner out of turkey...

Simply the talent wasn't there. They blew a draft pick. whether that was Bradway, Tannenbaum, Woody, who knows.Mangini's final piece of screwing them over.

Many will not accept that he was just that: a blown draft pick. Every other lousy draft pick, on the Jets or on other team, can be referred to as such. But not Sanchez. Nope, he's the one who would have been something he isn't if not for the terrible Jets front office and coaching staff. Meanwhile it makes no more sense than claiming Holmes would have been putting up 1200+ yard seasons every year if not for Sanchez. Instead he's used as a reason why Sanchez was horrible.

Sometimes a bust is a bust. You want to hear one of my criticisms of Ryan? He should have seen it earlier. Or maybe he did and this was the team he was handed by a GM who basically bet his job on this QB (twice). I'm sure Ryan did like him and think he could have made him a good QB. Meanwhile better offensive minds than Ryan have struck out on QBs before, and it'll happen again.

[BroadwayJoe12]

I've been away a bit, but just so I get caught up: we're now blaming our good defense for Sanchez's struggles and no longer the media? Or is this in addition to the media?

[dbatesman]

I've been away a bit, but just so I get caught up: we're now blaming our good defense for Sanchez's struggles and no longer the media? Or is this in addition to the media?

Fans

[RutgersJetFan]

I've been away a bit, but just so I get caught up: we're now blaming our good defense for Sanchez's struggles and no longer the media? Or is this in addition to the media?

It's the same schtick as the prior 3 offseasons: Majority of board pissed at Rex when the season ends, realizes Sanchez sucks and that it's time for a change from top to bottom.

Time passes, people convince themselves that Rex isn't so bad because of his first two years and that Sanchez can improve if you just bring in some competition and give him some weapons, that we should feel fortunate that we have a coach that is good on one side of the ball, and all we really were last season was a few pieces away from getting back to the playoffs.

Now sub out Sanchez for Geno.

fin

[Larz]

This is a trick question, I'm sure.

 

I'm so confused I have no idea who to blame anymore

[sirlancemehlot]

It's the same schtick as the prior 3 offseasons: Majority of board pissed at Rex when the season ends, realizes Sanchez sucks and that it's time for a change from top to bottom.

Time passes, people convince themselves that Rex isn't so bad because of his first two years and that Sanchez can improve if you just bring in some competition and give him some weapons, that we should feel fortunate that we have a coach that is good on one side of the ball, and all we really were last season was a few pieces away from getting back to the playoffs.

Now sub out Sanchez for Geno.

fin

 

Fans

sorry dude but this is nonsense.  You're drinking the Sperm coolaid.  Anytime Sanchez is mentioned in a larger context...the thread is about Sanchez.  This one isn't, never was, but again, it has become a Sanchez thread.  Let it go guys.  He's gone.  He can't hurt you anymore.  

[RutgersJetFan]

sorry dude but this is nonsense.  You're drinking the Sperm coolaid.  Anytime Sanchez is mentioned in a larger context...the thread is about Sanchez.  This one isn't, never was, but again, it has become a Sanchez thread.  Let it go guys.  He's gone.  He can't hurt you anymore.  

 

I can't. I'm too jaded now.