Jets reach out to Asante Samuel

[Matt39]

Rex probably watched tape of CJ from 4 years ago, saw one play and called the shot. Same as Plaxico. 

 

I liken it to buying Polo gear at TJ Maxx. 

[Bleedin Green]

If were signing players while being efficient with the coin I still dont get the Chris Johnson signing. I'm watching Dexter Mccluster who's younger, cheaper and a better receiver make plays for the Titans. And less primadonna.

 

It might have something to do with the fact that they're significantly different players; after all, they play different positions given that the latter hasn't been a RB for nearly 3 years now, and has never been a primary ball carrier throughout his entire career.

[Matt39]

It might have something to do with the fact that they're significantly different players; after all, they play different positions given that the latter hasn't been a RB for nearly 3 years now, and has never been a primary ball carrier throughout his entire career.

 

No sh*t?

[LionelRichie]

That type of logic is how we ended up with Gholston, and DRob before him.

 

are you really comparing draft picks with no NFL experience to a perennial pro-bowler and one of the best defensive players in the NFL?    notice I didn't advocate 2 1's and a 3 for Revis - just signing him with the cash money that is going to waste this season.  

 

I'm not anti-Idzik but I think he is learning on the job as a first time GM.   what is the plan here, can you articulate it to me because I don't see it?   I see a lot of avg players and no stars.   there are only so many draft picks per year and even less high picks.  when you get the chance to pick a top tier player at a reasonable market rate (i.e. less than sherman, peterson), not use any draft picks,  AND keep him away from your division rival who wins every year you make the move.  

 

I see a lot of people that like to reference Seattle.  1st - seatlle got lucky with Wilson.   2nd- guess what, Richard Sherman just signed for $15M/yr.    You think revis would have taken that deal to be a NYJ?    the cap is going to continue to increase every year.   the Jets are in no danger of being cap strapped any time soon - in fact their cap situation is going to improve once they clear out all the dead money this year.    

 

again...my point isn't that Idzik sucks.   it's that Idzik continues to arbitrarily determine what he thinks is "fair value" regardless of the market forces.   he needs to be more flexible and adapt to a changing market.   we took a 5'9 punt returner in the 4th rd.  a punt returner.   why not use that pick to move up for Matthews or Richardson in rd 2?   why do we need 12 picks?    yes, IK enkamapali looks like a nice player but our DL is stacked do we really need more DL?   could we get someone as an UDFA who is just as good as a backup?    why sign Vick and then relegate him to the bench?  why not open the QB competition up (like Seattle) and let the best player play?   

 

dissent is ok, it doesn't mean I hate Idzik or hate the Jets.   It just means I don't agree with every move he is making and frankly I think the Revis move was more personal (woody) than business.  

[Bleedin Green]

No sh*t?

 

Not sure if you're just busting my balls, but KC was playing McCluster at WR for the last 2 years (20 carries combined).  Granted, the fact that they have Charles may have something to do with that, but they still had plenty of other guys getting reps there while he wasn't really used at RB by them since 2011.

[Matt39]

Not sure if you're just busting my balls, but KC was playing McCluster at WR for the last 2 years (20 carries combined).  Granted, the fact that they have Charles may have something to do with that, but they still had plenty of other guys getting reps there while he wasn't really used at RB by them since 2011.

 

He's basically playing the same role we brought in CJ for here. But the carrot is he can be used on specials...and he's pretty good at it too. I expect Ivory to take the lion share of the early down carries(he's the better back at this point). Mccluster's listed position is irrelevant. He's a better receiver than Johnson, which is why I find it confusing we didnt pursue him.

 

Using a fourth round pick on a guy to be a punt returner isnt quite as bad as using a pick on a fullback...but it's in the same church of drafting rules imo.

[Bleedin Green]

He's basically playing the same role we brought in CJ for here. But the carrot is he can be used on specials...and he's pretty good at it too. I expect Ivory to take the lion share of the early down carries(he's the better back at this point). Mccluster's listed position is irrelevant. He's a better receiver than Johnson, which is why I find it confusing we didnt pursue him.

 

Using a fourth round pick on a guy to be a punt returner isnt quite as bad as using a pick on a fullback...but it's in the same church of drafting rules imo.

 

I can get the Saunders vs McCluster debate, as they're much more comparable in a variety of ways, I just don't think it ever would have been a matter of either/or with him and CJ.  If anything, it could have been both.  While of course one of Johnson's primary contributions will be as a receiving back, he's still going to get plenty of work as a runner as well, and I'd bet gets more carries than McCluster has ever seen throughout his career.  The team clearly wants a guy who brings more a big play threat to the running game and not to mention, given Ivory's injury history, you can hardly count on him for the entire year, even if they did plan on having him set as the #1.

[Matt39]

I can get the Saunders vs McCluster debate, as they're much more comparable in a variety of ways, I just don't think it ever would have been a matter of either/or with him and CJ.  If anything, it could have been both.  While of course one of Johnson's primary contributions will be as a receiving back, he's still going to get plenty of work as a runner as well, and I'd bet gets more carries than McCluster has ever seen throughout his career.  The team clearly wants a guy who brings more a big play threat to the running game and not to mention, given Ivory's injury history, you can hardly count on him for the entire year, even if they did plan on having him set as the #1.

 

sh*t I would have went after both then. I just dont like CJ as an inside runner on early downs....with an offense that cant afford any lost yards, he's had too many carries go for nothing throughout his career because he's trying to pop a long one. And last year we saw how that works when he's not busting off long tds. Mccluster's the more versatile player at this point imo...with all of our draft picks I found it odd we didnt take a back. The signing just didnt seem like an Idzik move at all.

 

Get the sense Rex has some Steinbrenner in him...when an opponent has a good game or a big play against his defense...he pounds the table for the organization to sign him. 

[LionelRichie]

sh*t I would have went after both then. I just dont like CJ as an inside runner on early downs....with an offense that cant afford any lost yards, he's had too many carries go for nothing throughout his career because he's trying to pop a long one. And last year we saw how that works when he's not busting off long tds. Mccluster's the more versatile player at this point imo...with all of our draft picks I found it odd we didnt take a back. The signing just didnt seem like an Idzik move at all.

 

Get the sense Rex has some Steinbrenner in him...when an opponent has a good game or a big play against his defense...he pounds the table for the organization to sign him. 

 

 

I like the CJ signing.   Home run hitter, hopefully with a chip on his shoulder after being discarded by Tennessee.   

 

It all comes down to the OL.   if this was the 09 line CJ would have a monster year.  hopefully these guys come up huge and Geno can take advantage of teams selling out to stop the run.  

[Sperm Edwards]

are you really comparing draft picks with no NFL experience to a perennial pro-bowler and one of the best defensive players in the NFL?  

 

I'm not anti-Idzik but I think he is learning on the job as a first time GM.   what is the plan here, can you articulate it to me because I don't see it?   I see a lot of avg players and no stars.   there are only so many draft picks per year and even less high picks.  when you get the chance to pick a top tier player at a reasonable market rate (i.e. less than sherman, peterson), not use any draft picks,  AND keep him away from your division rival who wins every year you make the move.  

 

I see a lot of people that like to reference Seattle.  1st - seatlle got lucky with Wilson.   2nd- guess what, Richard Sherman just signed for $15M/yr.    You think revis would have taken that deal to be a NYJ?    the cap is going to continue to increase every year.   the Jets are in no danger of being cap strapped any time soon - in fact their cap situation is going to improve once they clear out all the dead money this year.    

 

again...my point isn't that Idzik sucks.   it's that Idzik continues to arbitrarily determine what he thinks is "fair value" regardless of the market forces.   he needs to be more flexible and adapt to a changing market.   we took a 5'9 punt returner in the 4th rd.  a punt returner.   why not use that pick to move up for Matthews or Richardson in rd 2?   why do we need 12 picks?    yes, IK enkamapali looks like a nice player but our DL is stacked do we really need more DL?   could we get someone as an UDFA who is just as good as a backup?    why sign Vick and then relegate him to the bench?  why not open the QB competition up (like Seattle) and let the best player play?   

 

dissent is ok, it doesn't mean I hate Idzik or hate the Jets.   It just means I don't agree with every move he is making and frankly I think the Revis move was more personal (woody) than business.  

 

Your entire post is a question asking what I just answered in the post it quoted.

 

My entire post was a plan that was outlined - at least as I surmise it to be - and your response to that is "What is the plan here?"

 

I think the QB situation is semi-open. The job is/was clearly Smith's to lose, and no matter how much they want him to be the starter, if he was so freaking awful he would have lost it. If he is doing more or less on par with what Vick is doing, then the job should be his. Vick has so much more experience (not to mention so much raw ability) he should look like twice the passer Smith is already, and so far he hasn't.  Off-target throws and a batted pass.  All that remains are his turnovers. He's no Godsend. He's an insurance policy, and an expensive one at that. But he was the best one out there, has experience (not to mention his best NFL season) with Mornhinweg, and also has experience as somewhat of a mentor/backup just last year. 

 

The "stud" pass-catcher they liked best was Amaro. Will it end up being the a better move than trading that pick away, plus another one or two, for one of those two WRs? I have no idea yet. I do remember the mocking that Tannenbaum took for passing up on Donnie Avery, Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Limas Sweed, and others with "true #1" body types and combine results. We took a 6'2" tall TE who was 240 lbs soaking wet. The ones he was NOT ripped for passing up on, oddly, were Jordy Nelson and DeSean Jackson. 

 

There's almost always someone else that should have been drafted with the benefit of hindsight. But more often than not it's not the one who we thought it was before game 1 of their rookie seasons. If Amaro doesn't pan out and an available, highly-touted WR does, then he'll take much-deserved criticism for it. But right now? It's silly and stinks of immature impatience. 

 

The one I do agree with you on is Saunders. I do think he's too small. Now watch he'll end up being the best pick in the whole class. Thing is, looking back at that '08 draft, I remember reading DeSean Jackson weighing in as low as 169 lbs and thinking he'd be too fragile for the NFL as well. Lots of people thought that. And look at him. Also one of the reasons he wanted a dedicated PR is because they didn't want to send a reliable WR out there on these (dangerous, injury-causing) punt returns.

 

But the plan? I think he took the guy he viewed as the best value receiver in Amaro, knowing there were LOTS of WRs in this class. The strategy seemed to be to take a few of them and if 1 pans out you forget about and don't lament on the other two who didn't. The other way of going about this, as you've outlined, is to use multiple picks on ONE WR prospect and hope we get lucky at TE in a much thinner TE class (compared to WR).

 

The future will tell if it was wise or not. But 1 year ago the 2013 draft class was mocked as some type of horrible joke. Right about now it's looking pretty solid to me (including Ivory with the rookies drafted). If Smith turns into a decent QB and Winters+Aboushi play up to his 2nd-preseason hype, as Ape mentioned, it could arguably end up as the best draft the franchise has ever had. And the craziest part about that is 2013 was supposed to be a weaker draft. If the guards look like they did last year and Smith sucks again and Milliner and Ivory are always banged up with this or that injury, then the class will be looked back upon as all failures plus Richardson.

[Sperm Edwards]

sh*t I would have went after both then. I just dont like CJ as an inside runner on early downs....with an offense that cant afford any lost yards, he's had too many carries go for nothing throughout his career because he's trying to pop a long one. And last year we saw how that works when he's not busting off long tds. Mccluster's the more versatile player at this point imo...with all of our draft picks I found it odd we didnt take a back. The signing just didnt seem like an Idzik move at all.

 

Get the sense Rex has some Steinbrenner in him...when an opponent has a good game or a big play against his defense...he pounds the table for the organization to sign him. 

 

You just don't like CJ period. We get it. 

 

I think the CJ pick was to get a homerun threat who isn't an experiment to put onto the field. One who can catch passes from his young (and still very much developing) QB. It's a handicap for any QB to not have a safety valve; a boon to a QB to have one. A bigger boon if that safety valve can turn a routine "no one else was open" pass into a 10 yard gain like it's nothing. Initially he wanted that player to be Goodson and that REALLY didn't work out. But it was a pretty cheap error at least.  CJ isn't THAT expensive, this year in particular.

 

We'll see. Typically RBs aren't that good at 29, 30, 31, etc. and a lot of the reason is because they've lost a step that makes them less elusive. But typical RBs didn't start out with 4.24 speed to begin with, so they aren't still ~4.40 guys after losing a step like CJ probably is.

 

He had pretty good numbers last year for a guy playing with a torn meniscus for 13 or 14 games (I think that's what it was but I don't feel like looking it up).

[Matt39]

You just don't like CJ period. We get it. 

 

I think the CJ pick was to get a homerun threat who isn't an experiment to put onto the field. One who can catch passes from his young (and still very much developing) QB. It's a handicap for any QB to not have a safety valve; a boon to a QB to have one. A bigger boon if that safety valve can turn a routine "no one else was open" pass into a 10 yard gain like it's nothing. Initially he wanted that player to be Goodson and that REALLY didn't work out. But it was a pretty cheap error at least.  CJ isn't THAT expensive, this year in particular.

 

We'll see. Typically RBs aren't that good at 29, 30, 31, etc. and a lot of the reason is because they've lost a step that makes them less elusive. But typical RBs didn't start out with 4.24 speed to begin with, so they aren't still ~4.40 guys after losing a step like CJ probably is.

 

He had pretty good numbers last year for a guy playing with a torn meniscus for 13 or 14 games (I think that's what it was but I don't feel like looking it up).

 

Point being Id rather be going after backs who are young and offer some long term upside. CJ isnt either. If he wanted to make up for MIke Goodson, Mccluster was the better alternative than CJ...who we know will be vocal if he's not fed the ball. We dont need another Holmes situation.

 

CJ has rex written all over it, which concerns me. I get Idzik's vision...but these moves that have Rex's hands all over them never work out.

[Sperm Edwards]

I like the CJ signing.   Home run hitter, hopefully with a chip on his shoulder after being discarded by Tennessee.   

 

It all comes down to the OL.   if this was the 09 line CJ would have a monster year.  hopefully these guys come up huge and Geno can take advantage of teams selling out to stop the run.

 

I think he may look better just because he's not going to be the one getting the call on all those short yardage plays. Those cut down on his ypc and have got to be an aching bitch to get up from nearly a hundred of them over the course of a season. He's not going to be relegated to just 3rd down duty (I wouldn't think) but he's not going to get near 350 touches either.

 

Plus he's just an exciting player who will touch the ball an awful lot. And if he's bad there's no need to bring him back for '15. RBs don't typically need to be groomed so much like other positions, so when we feel like the prior season wasn't so special from CJ, then the following April we draft another one.  So the other thing that gets lost in the addition is it didn't pigeon-hole us into targeting another RB with breakaway type talent in the draft, who may or may not be ready to be on the field in pass protection for all those 3rd downs.

 

I like the pickup. 

[Sperm Edwards]

Point being Id rather be going after backs who are young and offer some long term upside. CJ isnt either. If he wanted to make up for MIke Goodson, Mccluster was the better alternative than CJ...who we know will be vocal if he's not fed the ball. We dont need another Holmes situation.

 

CJ has rex written all over it, which concerns me. I get Idzik's vision...but these moves that have Rex's hands all over them never work out.

 

Well we just disagree on that.

 

McCluster is a punt returner and on offense is purely a 3rd down back who has exactly 2 career football games with double-digit carries (10 and 12 at that).

 

CJ is a running back who will actually take handoffs. If he's the hot hand it is totally reasonable to give him 20 handoffs. Give McCluster 20 handoffs in 1 game and it will be the last game he ever plays.  Hell, the guy has taken 20 handoffs in the last 2 years combined. CJ's downside (value-wise) is as a 3rd down back IMO.

 

It was no accident that, despite being nearly 5 years older, Johnson's deal over 2 years is the same as McCluster's over 3. And the team that gave McCluster that deal was the same that gave Johnson that kooky contract, followed by another for Shonn Greene just a year ago.

 

I would have been ok with McCluster as well. I like the CJ pickup fine. As to your fear of him being Holmes II, we'll see on that. I'm pretty sure the day he signed he knew that he'd be splitting carries here.

[LionelRichie]

I think he may look better just because he's not going to be the one getting the call on all those short yardage plays. Those cut down on his ypc and have got to be an aching bitch to get up from nearly a hundred of them over the course of a season. He's not going to be relegated to just 3rd down duty (I wouldn't think) but he's not going to get near 350 touches either.

 

Plus he's just an exciting player who will touch the ball an awful lot. And if he's bad there's no need to bring him back for '15. RBs don't typically need to be groomed so much like other positions, so when we feel like the prior season wasn't so special from CJ, then the following April we draft another one.  So the other thing that gets lost in the addition is it didn't pigeon-hole us into targeting another RB with breakaway type talent in the draft, who may or may not be ready to be on the field in pass protection for all those 3rd downs.

 

I like the pickup. 

 

yep.

 

for better or worse this team is going to run the ball.   over the last couple of years we've seen powell and Ivory break off 25-yd runs.   with CJ those are 75 yd TDs.   He may not be perfect but he isn't getting caught from behind, something this team has really never had.  

[slats]

are you really comparing draft picks with no NFL experience to a perennial pro-bowler and one of the best defensive players in the NFL?    notice I didn't advocate 2 1's and a 3 for Revis - just signing him with the cash money that is going to waste this season.

You do know that teams can carry over cap space under the current rules, right? So it's not really going to waste. And at some point under those same rules, they're going to be forced to spend it.

 

again...my point isn't that Idzik sucks.   it's that Idzik continues to arbitrarily determine what he thinks is "fair value" regardless of the market forces.   he needs to be more flexible and adapt to a changing market.   we took a 5'9 punt returner in the 4th rd.  a punt returner.   why not use that pick to move up for Matthews or Richardson in rd 2?   why do we need 12 picks?

  

This is a valid complaint, IMHO. Remember how long it took to get the trade for Ivory done? Idzik has a reputation for being deliberate and methodical. He doesn't rush into anything. It seems like he also has trouble shifting gears on the fly. In two years he hasn't been able to consummate a draft day trade. There have been rumors about him trying to make moves both up and down, but he hasn't been able to get anything done. Either he's asking too much, can't compromise, or both. At least not under any sort of time constraint.

Same thing goes for free agency. They really wanted Vontae Davis, but when that fell thru, they didn't really seem to have a backup plan in place. They tried to see Munnerlyn, low-balled DRC, then settled on Patterson. I think we're really lucky that there were no offers to Decker along the lines of the rumored $10M/year or so that he'd command. What would've been his backup plan at WR?

Get the sense Rex has some Steinbrenner in him...when an opponent has a good game or a big play against his defense...he pounds the table for the organization to sign him.

There's no doubt about this. If a player beats Rex's dee, Rex believes that guy is a world beater. It's another reason he shouldn't be buying the groceries.

That said, I like the Chris Johnson pickup, too. As Sperm said, his floor is third down back. Like we saw with Tomlinson, though, anything can happen, and these vet backs can often bring more than you expect. I prefer younger backs, too, but vets bring savvy - especially in pass protection where the kids are usually terrible. Johnson is a reliable receiver on the pro level, where there's no guarantee with that from a rookie. At the end of the year, I won't be surprised if Johnson is the team's leading rusher. I certainly expect him to lead all backs in total yards from scrimmage.