Michael Irvin and Cris Carter assess Stephen Hill

[JustInFudge]

You and Shane ever hear of cognitive dissonance?

He's very smart.  So I'm sure he does.  I dont.  So I cant wait for him to help me understand it.

[Klecko73isGod]

We can never not love each other.

Because the mods are active posters, and because the mods have the same opinions (generally) it emboldens those of similar opinion (and less interest in honest debate) to go apesh*t on anyone of dissenting opinion. It's your fault(s) because you'll inadvertently foment a gang-beating of someone whose opinions don't agree with your own. To whit, I made a rather innocuous post recently about Calvin Pryor having a concussion and what that might mean for his future moving forward given his style of play. For this, I was attacked by the usual suspects, as though I had personally given Pryor the concussion. You know who was involved in that attack? Maxman. After the usual suspects got done calling me a "troll," they went on to talk about Calvin Pryor's concussion and what that might mean for his future given his style of play. It's not the post itself that brings the board down--it's the 15 halfwits who scan the board looking to scream at anyone saying anything they perceive to be anti-Jets. The end result is that those who want to actually talk about Jets issues go back to Twitter and you're left with amped-up actual trolls who seek out confrontation from the above-mentioned halfwits. As mods--and I say this as a former mod--you shouldn't look to control the content, but you should look to preserve the right to reasoned speech whether you agree with it or not. Just my two cents.

 

Cry me a ******* river. 

 

Dude, I've been on the unpopular side of public opinion before and debated with 20 people at once on multiple occasions both here and on JI. 

 

The difference between me and you? I never whined about it. 

 

You make one douchie troll comment after another and then have the nerve to get all bitchy when people call you on it?

 

Life's tough pal. Wear a ****in cup. 

[BP]

#Threadruined..lolololol and Tom called it!

 

[Klecko73isGod]

#Threadruined..lolololol and Tom called it!

 

 

[Klecko73isGod]

#Threadruined..lolololol and Tom called it!

 

 

Let me help you understand something... ruining the thread was Tom's intention. 

[JustInFudge]

Totally ruined, guys!

[SoFlaJets]

It's my contention that there's been a disconnect in the player development under Rex. There is simply no way that every young non-DL player who is brought in here can be struggle so much and lack confidence the way all of these kids seem to. Hill may have sucked anywhere, and probably would have. But he's just another in the line of draft picks brought in under Rex who never figured it out, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Whatever they're doing at Florham Park isn't conducive to getting much out of these kids unless they're playing defensive line. You see teams all over the league that produce low-round draft picks and UDFAs that become major contributors, and we can't get 2nd round picks who can keep a roster spot. Something is broken, and it's more than just the scouting.

I guess I'll probably get attacked but I think this is the best post in this whole thread, and the truest account of what is the problem with the current Jets regime. Look, you can't win a championship with a half a head coach, which is exactly what Rex Ryan is-still. He never got any better-he's the mark Sanchez of coaches. he'll get you to a couple of championship games and his record in doing so will look pretty good through the historical lens and all but truth is it will NEVER be good enough, and he will never hoist the Lombardi Trophy as the HC of the NYJ. 

[AFJF]

I guess I'll probably get attacked but I think this is the best post in this whole thread, and the truest account of what is the problem with the current Jets regime. Look, you can't win a championship with a half a head coach, which is exactly what Rex Ryan is-still. He never got any better-he's the mark Sanchez of coaches. he'll get you to a couple of championship games and his record in doing so will look pretty good through the historical lens and all but truth is it will NEVER be good enough, and he will never hoist the Lombardi Trophy as the HC of the NYJ. 

 

I remember hearing people say Dick Vermeil would never win because he was too much of a player's coach late in his career.  He'd gone soft and cried in press conferences.  I remember hearing people say that John Gruden was a self promoter and the "chucky" facial expressions were a way to get attention and he wasn't serious enough to win becuase he only cared about his image.  I remember people saying the Steelers were crazy to keep Bill Cowher during his "lean years" because he'd had enough chances to win a ring and it was clearly never going to happen.  People said Tony Dungy would never win a championship because he only knew defense and couldn't coach an offense.  Everybody was 100% right, until every one of those guys won a Super Bowl.

[stevegrunder]

I don't have any desire to do that, and neither does anyone else. I also don't want to have the same conversation in every thread. And like I said, if the answer to everything is, "because Rex sucks," then that's what happens. We don't even need threads here anymore. We could just call the entire forum: Rex Sucks, Discuss. But I really don't think that that's what the majority of people here really want.

I want you to post more stuff like that Pryor commentary. That's good stuff. And if that becomes the majority of what you do around here. You'll see those empty-headed attacks stop. AFJ said it, when I see your name attached to a thread, I have certain expectations. As in this thread, where your opening salvo did not disappoint. Before we could even start to discuss the merits of the article or it's sources, you had four posts in focusing on one sentence that you could use to focus on Rex. Ugh.

The mods don't all share the same opinions. Max, god bless him, is a died in the wool homer. Me and Sperm are probably a lot more positive here than in real life to counter the negativity. Faba sides with you when it comes to Rex, but understands he doesn't need to bring every thread around to discuss it. Thor likes men, Joe likes dating cousins, and Crusher likes food. We have a lot of diversity. We want honest, lively discussion/debate. All I'm saying is that when it always gets brought back to the same old tired subject, the discussion dies. So I don't want to moderate content, but I do want to steer conversations in a way that they will be more interesting to everyone.

 

Yeah.... It's a nice sentiment and all, and a good try, and you may even actually believe this.

 

BUT

 

When all the threads were about Sanchez, that was cool, because you and the mods were down with it, and agreed with it.

[JetsFanInDenver]

I remember hearing people say Dick Vermeil would never win because he was too much of a player's coach late in his career.  He'd gone soft and cried in press conferences.  I remember hearing people say that John Gruden was a self promoter and the "chucky" facial expressions were a way to get attention and he wasn't serious enough to win becuase he only cared about his image.  I remember people saying the Steelers were crazy to keep Bill Cowher during his "lean years" because he'd had enough chances to win a ring and it was clearly never going to happen.  People said Tony Dungy would never win a championship because he only knew defense and couldn't coach an offense.  Everybody was 100% right, until every one of those guys won a Super Bowl.

 

If Rex stays on as long as Cowher did without winning a championship there are going to be so many people going crazy. And most of them will name Cowher as one of the best possible replacements for Rex. The irony.

[AFJF]

If Rex stays on as long as Cowher did without winning a championship there are going to be so many people going crazy. And most of them will name Cowher as one of the best possible replacements for Rex. The irony.

That's why I've laughed any time I've seen him suggested as a replacement...took him 17 years.

[SoFlaJets]

But Gruden Vermeil and Cowher all are not mostly focused on one side of the ball like Rex is AFJF...besides, it's already pretty much a given that if Rex doesn't do something drastic like win a couple of playoff games he's gone anyway- 8-8 ain't keeping this guy's job

[pdxgreen]

   How many years does it take for a WR to develop would somebody tell me?

[Klecko73isGod]

But Gruden Vermeil and Cowher all are not mostly focused on one side of the ball like Rex is AFJF...besides, it's already pretty much a given that if Rex doesn't do something drastic like win a couple of playoff games he's gone anyway- 8-8 ain't keeping this guy's job

 

Gruden certainly was. Gruden was so offensive minded that when he was hired to coach the Bucs one of the stipulations was that he keep Monte Kiffin in place as the DC.

 

He wisely never touched the defense until after they won a title. The second he started dealing with it, they turned into a mediocre unit. 

[AFJF]

But Gruden Vermeil and Cowher all are not mostly focused on one side of the ball like Rex is AFJF...besides, it's already pretty much a given that if Rex doesn't do something drastic like win a couple of playoff games he's gone anyway- 8-8 ain't keeping this guy's job

 

I can't honestly remember what type of rep Vermeil came in with other than  having an insane work ethic.  Gruden on the other hand, was always referred to as a WCO genius and QB guru and in all honesty he won for the same reason Dungy won...they each took over teams that had top-3 personnel in their area of weakness.  Gruden got a great Bucs defense, and Dungy inherited Peyton Manning.  To be honest, this is what I see happening with Rex if/when he's dumped by the Jets.  Some team that already has a great offense in place is going to bring him in and he's gonna' win a SB.  As far as Rex this season, I'm  not 100% convinced he's gone at 8-8.  I think any owner is going to take in to consideartion what realisitic expectations are before the season starts.  As it stands, fans and media alike are saying the Jets have no shot becuase of weak DB's and that's on Idzik.  If the Jets get hammered in that early "gauntlet" and start the season 2-5 and then they turn around and win 6 or seven of their last nine games, I don't see Woody firing him.  Again, I could be dead wrong, but my hope is that we're looking back to laugh at this stuff while the Jets make a deep playoff run!

[AFJF]

   How many years does it take for a WR to develop would somebody tell me?

 

It depends on the WR.  There are examples of some HOF/All-Pro WR's who did little to  nothing in their first few years.  Hell, Tim Brown, one of the best ever, was a punt returner and didn't get significant playing time at WR until his fifth season.  Rod Smith had  John Elway as his QB and did NOTHING in his first two years.  And Wes Welker....well.....

[Maxman]

The moderators make it worse by encouraging beatdowns of any dissenting opinion. There used to be a lot of lively conversation here--we had fans of every team that used to come in and debate. But, now, that's gone. They're gone. I was gone for two years here and when I came back, everyone was gone. At first I thought it was because the JI dudes chased them out. But it's not. It's you dudes. You've turned this place into a Skip Bayless acid trip.

 

This has to be a joke.  It can't be serious.

[Larz]

so, is stephen hill any good ?

[Maxman]

It's funny how Stephen Hill isn't getting it because of the environment here (Rex).  And yet Greg Salas, who has bounced around the league (St. Louis, New England, Philly), seems to be developing  nicely in that same toxic environment.

 

Agreed and hopefully Salas can keep it up and have a good season. Would have for him to be a David Clowney \ camp wonder type only.

[Maxman]

I just want to say thank you to the moderators here. They do a truly thankless job. Nobody is perfect, we all have opinions and we all disagree at times. That is the beauty of sports.  They get accused of all sorts of things and I am proud of the way the moderators here conduct their business.

 

Just wanted to say thanks guys, because I don't say it enough.

[pointman]

Not sure what you're talking about with the first stuff but yeah I'd say drafting a QB last year, signing the best available veteran QB this season, the best FA RB, best FA WR and then drafting 3 pass catching options with your first 5 picks, is doing something about offense.  Whether it works or not is yet to be seen.

 

I am comfortable enough with the O transformation, and knowing that if Geno is absolute Sanchez level garbage we have Vick.. that my biggest fear has turned to corner.  

[T0mShane]

Cry me a ******* river.

Dude, I've been on the unpopular side of public opinion before and debated with 20 people at once on multiple occasions both here and on JI.

The difference between me and you? I never whined about it.

You make one douchie troll comment after another and then have the nerve to get all bitchy when people call you on it?

Life's tough pal. Wear a ****in cup.

I refuse to believe there was a time when you didn't whine.

[T0mShane]

Yeah.... It's a nice sentiment and all, and a good try, and you may even actually believe this.

BUT

When all the threads were about Sanchez, that was cool, because you and the mods were down with it, and agreed with it.

Ohhhhhhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiIttttttt

[#27TheDominator]

Agreed and hopefully Salas can keep it up and have a good season. Would have for him to be a David Clowney \ camp wonder type only.

 

Salas has a long way to go to match what Clowney did here in the preseason.  He had 4 for 163 and 2 TDs in a single game.  70 and 71 yard TDs.  He lead all WRs in the preseason with 8 for 222.  He caught Sanchez first NFL pass, a 48 yarder and went 3 for 102 and a TD agains the Rams. Mr. August was no joke.  They guy had a couple of 70+ yard receiving games when Sanchez was a rookie. He is actually the guy they cut Woodhead for, they then cut him to bring Holmes off suspension. 

[Maxman]

Ohhhhhhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiIttttttt

 

We have a no cursing rule. Please follow the rules, lol.

[slats]

Yeah.... It's a nice sentiment and all, and a good try, and you may even actually believe this.

 

BUT

 

When all the threads were about Sanchez, that was cool, because you and the mods were down with it, and agreed with it.

Thank you Mr. 39 posts guy, for your insights into how JN should be moderated. Rest assured we're taking these opinions very seriously back at the home office.

[Matt39]

meh 

[Bugg]

I guess I'll probably get attacked but I think this is the best post in this whole thread, and the truest account of what is the problem with the current Jets regime. Look, you can't win a championship with a half a head coach, which is exactly what Rex Ryan is-still. He never got any better-he's the mark Sanchez of coaches. he'll get you to a couple of championship games and his record in doing so will look pretty good through the historical lens and all but truth is it will NEVER be good enough, and he will never hoist the Lombardi Trophy as the HC of the NYJ. 

Would rather discuss these realities than argue over who is or is not a "good fan". Again, we went through all of this with Herman Edwards. it's gonna end the same way, except Ryan is a better DC(as Edwards was never a DC in the first place) and might get himself saved for another year with 7-9 lipstick on the pig wins coupled with a cheap owner.If you think drawing outlandish conclusions from THE GREATEST 3-1 DECEMBER EVER, you must be a good fan. And fail to note the Jets beat 3 nonplyaoff teams with iffy QBs and lost handily to the one playoff team that had a QB despite an off day by the Carolina offense. But dream on, GOOD FANS. You're superior fans to the rest of us.

[Villain The Foe]

If Hill could be as good a ball catcher with both hands as Chris Carter was with one we'd have a consistent pass catcher. Now only if Hill could figure out how to run routes like Michael Irvin did then we'd have a complete WR. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stephen Hill is a bust and had absolutely no business being drafted before a guy who had the top 10 best hands in the league coming straight out of college and shown in his second year that his lack of speed is made up by his ability to separate. Everyone knows who I'm talking about. 

[#27TheDominator]

If Hill could be as good a ball catcher with both hands as Chris Carter was with one we'd have a consistent pass catcher. Now only if Hill could figure out how to run routes like Michael Irvin did then we'd have a complete WR. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stephen Hill is a bust and had absolutely no business being drafted before a guy who had the top 10 best hands in the league coming straight out of college and shown in his second year that his lack of speed is made up by his ability to separate. Everyone knows who I'm talking about. 

 

If only our GM had the foresight to move up for Brian Quick or AJ Jenkins

[Maxman]

Would rather discuss these realities than argue over who is or is not a "good fan". Again, we went through all of this with Herman Edwards. it's gonna end the same way, except Ryan is a better DC(as Edwards was never a DC in the first place) and might get himself saved for another year with 7-9 lipstick on the pig wins coupled with a cheap owner.If you think drawing outlandish conclusions from THE GREATEST 3-1 DECEMBER EVER, you must be a good fan. And fail to note the Jets beat 3 nonplyaoff teams with iffy QBs and lost handily to the one playoff team that had a QB despite an off day by the Carolina offense. But dream on, GOOD FANS. You're superior fans to the rest of us.

 

So I am on the other side of the fence. And I will tell you, to me this has NOTHING to do with who is a good or bad fan. I don't consider people who disagree with my viewpoints bad fans.  I am just tired of feeling dirty for believing in Rex Ryan.

 

Maybe I am wrong.  Maybe he is a terrible coach.  Maybe he will get fired after this season.

 

You know what? That doesn't change anything for me. I won't stop believing. I won't stop rooting. I won't stop pulling for Rex to get it done.  That is what being a fan means to me.

 

And I honestly really don't worry about other people. If they choose not to believe that is fine. But too many threads are getting derailed with Rex hate. It just gets in the way a bit when you are on this side of the fence.

[Klecko73isGod]

So I am on the other side of the fence. And I will tell you, to me this has NOTHING to do with who is a good or bad fan. I don't consider people who disagree with my viewpoints bad fans.  I am just tired of feeling dirty for believing in Rex Ryan.

 

Maybe I am wrong.  Maybe he is a terrible coach.  Maybe he will get fired after this season.

 

You know what? That doesn't change anything for me. I won't stop believing. I won't stop rooting. I won't stop pulling for Rex to get it done.  That is what being a fan means to me.

 

And I honestly really don't worry about other people. If they choose not to believe that is fine. But too many threads are getting derailed with Rex hate. It just gets in the way a bit when you are on this side of the fence.

Preach on brutha!

[AFJF]

But Gruden Vermeil and Cowher all are not mostly focused on one side of the ball like Rex is AFJF...besides, it's already pretty much a given that if Rex doesn't do something drastic like win a couple of playoff games he's gone anyway- 8-8 ain't keeping this guy's job

 

.

[AFJF]

Gruden certainly was. Gruden was so offensive minded that when he was hired to coach the Bucs one of the stipulations was that he keep Monte Kiffin in place as the DC.

 

He wisely never touched the defense until after they won a title. The second he started dealing with it, they turned into a mediocre unit. 

 

Right, basically the polar opposite of Dungy.  He was  hired in Indy and told to leave Peyton Manning and Tom Moore alone.  It worked.

[Bugg]

So I am on the other side of the fence. And I will tell you, to me this has NOTHING to do with who is a good or bad fan. I don't consider people who disagree with my viewpoints bad fans.  I am just tired of feeling dirty for believing in Rex Ryan.

 

Maybe I am wrong.  Maybe he is a terrible coach.  Maybe he will get fired after this season.

 

You know what? That doesn't change anything for me. I won't stop believing. I won't stop rooting. I won't stop pulling for Rex to get it done.  That is what being a fan means to me.

 

And I honestly really don't worry about other people. If they choose not to believe that is fine. But too many threads are getting derailed with Rex hate. It just gets in the way a bit when you are on this side of the fence.

I will root for them to win every Sunday at 1.

 

I don't speak for them, but i cannot imagine BP or T0m  doing anything else.