Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jetsfan80

Roster Building: Jets roster 2014 vs. 2012

Recommended Posts

Nice post and all...but it would be nearly impossible for the roster not be improved from 2012- which you could make the argument was the worst offense the NFL saw this decade.

 

Yes, the offense was easy to improve, but actually DOING it and making it look respectable in a 2-year period is not easy.  Replacing Shonn Greene and Joe McKnight with Ivory and Chris Johnson is a VAST improvement.  We didn't have a true WR1 before Decker.  People have their opinions on Geno but he was the top-rated QB in the draft and Idzik had the stones to take him when everyone was clamoring for a WR at the time in round 2.

 

And if it was JUST the offense he made improvements to you'd have a point.  While the secondary is patchwork right now he clearly made improvements to the front 7. 

 

None of the moves he made were obvious choices at the time, but they've worked out better than we'd have hoped overall.  After a 6-10 campaign and getting rid of Revis, nearly everyone thought we were headed for somewhere between 2-14 and 4-12.  But that didn't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

they may be "improved" but nowhere near good enough to compete for a title.

 

No one would argue otherwise.  But the minute a QB emerges this team is 100 % a contender with the roster at hand.  You couldn't say that after 2012.  We had far too many holes along with QB to make any such claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of these say "even". Most of them should say "inconclusive".

 

Good call, I was searching for the right word to use there.  I'll make that change for TE and Safety.

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting. I think you're giving a little too much "even" grade to the same player 2 years apart.

 

I was more or less giving Tannenbaum the benefit of the doubt in those situations (perhaps undeservedly).  The GM doesn't really get credit for player development, just player acquisition.  Tannenbaum "found" Big Snacks and Antonio Allen, so credit can't really go to Idzik for those players.  Nor should Idzik get blamed if a player under contract between 2012 and now declined unless he had a clear opportunity to part ways.

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to hear specific examples where Idzik has gone wrong given the information at hand when he made the decisions.  Should he have outbid the Raiders for Austin Howard?  Was investing a top 10 pick in Milliner the right call?  Was there not enough of an emphasis on offensive line with our Day 1/2 picks in the last 2 drafts?  Should we have gone after a G like Asamoah in free agency?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is like saying you have to give The Karate Kid Part II a lot of credit because at least it's not The Karate Kid Part III.

 

No, this is like saying it takes a really good GM to make something out of nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really good job on this article.

 

Its obvious that Idzik has got this team better with more depth in just two off seasons. I may not agree with all draft picks he has made but there is a definitive plan to keep making this team better and provide more depth without landing into salary cap issues.

 

Yeah that's the thing I like about Idzik.  With Tannenbaum so many of his failures had to do with moves he should NOT have made but did anyways.  With Idzik the criticism seems to be that he's not taking ENOUGH risks.  I think he's taking calculated risks in the draft, which has historically been the best way to build a roster.  Taking Geno in the 2nd round and rolling with him in Year 2 was risky.  Burning a top 10 pick on Milliner and the 13th pick on Richardson despite, at the time, being in good shape at CB and DE were risky choices a lot of people here didn't like. 

 

He's not trading up like a madman, trading tons of picks for veterans, or signing other teams' UFA's.  This is all a major departure from Tannenbaum, who left our roster in such bad shape following 2012 primarily because he did all of those things.

 

And, of course, he's not signing players to cap-crippling deals. 

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get out of here with this stupidity. He could've built a good, competitive team. A good team would make everyone happy. This isn't a good team. 

 

How.  Tell us.  You can't call someone out for stupidity without even a hint of a suggestion of how he should have been building this good, competitive team.

Edited by Jetsfan80
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By signing better players, trading for better players and drafting better players with the resources he had available to him. I'm not the GM, he is. 

 

Which better players.  You're not the GM but this is a message board.  You're allowed to come up with hypotheticals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By signing better players, trading for better players and drafting better players with the resources he had available to him. I'm not the GM, he is. 

 

Let's start with the 2013 draft.  Which players should we have drafted instead of Dee Milliner and Sheldon Richardson?  Here's a list of available players:

 

G Chance Warmack

OT D.J. Fluker

CB D.J. Hayden

DT Star Lotulelei

S Kenny Vaccaro

QB EJ Manuel

LB Jarvis Jones

S Eric Reid

OT Justin Pugh

TE Tyler Eifert

CB Desmond Trufant

DT Sharrif Floyd

DE Bjorn Werner

CB Xavier Rhodes

DE Datone Jones

WR DeAndre Hopkins

DT Sylvester Williams

WR Cordarrelle Patterson

LB Alec Ogletree

C Travis Frederick

WR Justin Hunter

RB Giovani Bernard

TE Zach Ertz

S Matt Elam

S Jonathan Cyprien

LB Manti Teo

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He basically could've drafted ANY WR's that would've been better than the two duds he punted 3rd round picks on. Could've signed the best CB in the NFL. It goes on and on. I just want to know when certain posters here will hold him accountable for the roster being terrible. 2017? 18? How many years does this team need to SUCK before people get tried of the rose color glasses to hide incompetence?

 

The issue here is twofold:  1.  You're already making judgments on the 2014 draft class before they've played a single regular season snap, 2.  Assuming the roster is terrible when it's clearly not (I just showed you how that is not true).

 

So you would have drafted different receivers this April and signed Revis.  Cool.  That's a start.  Anything else you would have done?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's impossible to say because the fact that his FA and Draft classes were terrible outside of Richardson in 2013 was the baseline for his 2014 failures. 

 

So even though you say Idzik's draft classes were "terrible" its "impossible" for you to do better, with hindsight on your side.  Because that makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man with the Golden Gun was way better.

 

I've been waiting for you to show up.  Was my OP long enough?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clearly, you haven't been spending as much time on the forums lately.

 

I've been forced to defend Idzik, who has brought in not one but TWO ECU products since his arrival.  Shoot me now.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You did me proud.  I read every damn word of it on general principle.  Although I still can't believe you haven't gotten a single TL;DR.

 

People here are so polite.  It's really refreshing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Idzik is doing a great job of building depth and closing the gap between the Jets starters and backups.    Right now the Jets have the best 2's in the NFL.....wonderful.   

 

Where is the top end talent?    Is Amaro going to be the next Graham or Gronkowski?   is milliner the next Peterson?  

 

Right now Idzik has built a great JV team.   Let me know when we have the best Varsity squad b/c right now this team is an afterthought in the discussion of superbowl contenders.  

 

Idzik has been doing everything in his power to bring in potential stars.  It's not exactly easy to do.  Richardson and Decker look like true "varsity" guys.  Pryor and Milliner (yes, there's still time for him) could end up in that category.  Wilkerson was here already.  It's entirely too early to be demanding stars all over the field.  If Idzik is doing well at the grunt work stuff while nailing his early draft picks, we could build something special here.

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and how many of the 12 draft picks are going to be on the opening day roster?     Idzik the patient didn't make a single move during the draft using all 12 picks.    how many of those 12 will be active week 1?  

 

Well don't forget that a lot of those picks couldn't be packaged to move up because they were compensatory picks.  You know, the picks at the end of rounds that Tannenbaum never valued.

 

It used to be that we complained about there not being enough competition on the roster.  Now we draft 12 players and suddenly the complaint is that we didn't trade up and now have too MANY players competing for spots.

 

Most will make the team.  Some will make the practice squad.  Maybe 1 or 2 get cut entirely.  I don't have the answer to that, as we still have 2 preseason games remaining.  I don't see an issue with this. 

 

The 49ers, who unlike us are loaded with talent, used 11 draft picks in the 2013 draft, and things turned out ok.  They drafted a safety 1st round (Reid) like us, got a TE in the 2nd round (Vance McDonald), grabbed a couple skill players in the middle rounds (Quinton Patton, Marcus Lattimore), a late round QB (BJ Daniels), etc etc.  A lot of those picks haven't worked out to this point, but they didn't see any issue with drafting "too many players."

Edited by Jetsfan80
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2 it looks like. The draft was just an utter disaster and will haunt this franchise for years, even if Pryor is a great player. 

 

2/12 guys make the Week 1 roster "it looks like" in your expert opinion.  Great prediction!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's ok to agree with the strategy and disagree on the tactics.   Yes the Jets needed to rebuild, I'm just not a believer in the high volume low ceiling approach - it actually reminds me a lot of Mangini.  

 

The jets could have signed any number of CB's this off-season and chose not to.   they could have had revis but chose not to b/c of personal issues.   ok, no problem just don't trot old dimitri patterson out there and tell me he's the best you could do.  

 

I see Evans, Enunwa, and Sanders.  Personally I would have preferred Jordan Mathews.   I see yet another 1st rd DB and yet the secondary is the weakest part of the team.   

 

Let's let this season play out and have the same discussion.   it's easy to nitpick right now since there really isn't much else going on.   

 

I don't think Idzik himself would say Dimitri Patterson is the "Best he could do".  He was signed to a 1-year $3M deal.  He's the cheap option.  Of course he wasn't the best out there.  The problem you're having is recognizing that that is not a terrible decision when your goal is be a perennial contender.  If you don't like the players on the market, you don't hand an expensive 5-year deal to one just to do it. 

 

Every team uses stopgaps and this was a clear example of one.  Contrary to popular opinion, Idzik isn't simply mailing in the 2014 season by signing a stopgap CB.  He does want to win now.  But not at the expense of the future.  Last year was about clearing bad contracts and starting fresh.  This year is about development.  It's a process.  Enjoy it.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

49ers are a very poor example as they have one of the most talented teams in the NFL.   The Jets are using a similar model to the 49ers and Seahawk with the "redshirt" year for their late rd picks.   Basically the 2014 draft is to play in 2015.   

 

So you're saying its a bad move for Idzik to follow a model thay promotes long-term success, I.E. the model that helped win his former team a Super Bowl?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

La la la lets ignore than all the reports out of camp about every rookie other than Pryor have been terrible! They are going to magically become good players once the season starts. 

 

No rookies ever develop over time.  Ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does it bother you at all that there has not been one positive report about one rookie out of TC other than Pryor? Or we just ignore that?

 

It would bother me more if it were August 2015 rather than August 2014.  Not to mention McDougle was getting glowing reviews before tearing his ACL.

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I watched 5 mins of the Giants first preseason game and I saw 2 rookies who looked better than any jet. Same goes for a bunch of teams. None of them are standing out at all and if that doesn't bother you you're fooling yourself. Especially since most of these pics were terrible reaches. The 3 WR's alone should be friable for whoever made those picks. 

 

http://nypost.com/2014/08/19/odell-beckham-hamstring-saga-at-near-farce-level/

 

Odell Beckham was their first round pick, # 12 overall.  Yet this article talks about how the Giants have "No clue" how he'll turn out.  Perhaps because they recognize these guys are mere months into their careers and it takes time to properly evaluate a young player. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not even talking about Beckham. He hasn't played yet. 

 

Exactly.  And the rest of these rookies you're talking about have had at most 2-3 quarters of experience TOTAL of NFL-level play.  Bit too early to be running around making judgments, but carry on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and where is the talent going to come from?    as the salary cap continues to increase (dramatically once the new TV $ hits) the trend will be less FA movement.  

 

with 12 picks heading into the April draft I expected a lot more than we got.   I don't think there was a poster on this board that considered heading into the regular season w/o adding a single wr to the rotation.    

 

We signed the best WR on the market.  And Idzik recognized that teams are built via the draft with some FA's sprinkled in.  Which is probably why he used all 12 of his draft picks and limited his FA spending.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's like watching the guy who didn't have an N64 at home wander into his own proximity mines again and again.

Is....is that me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And then the 2-3 guys that still argue for Tannenbaum, that's the kid who kept trying to get his friends to come over to play Sega Dreamcast with him.

 

Video game analogies are fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just throwing my 2 cents in but I think you need to lighten up a bit.

 

Biggest understatement I've read here in a long time.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do deny the fact that they are moving in the right direction, that is the upsetting part. They don't have a "slew of talented young players" they have 3-4 of them which is not enough and they have shown that they either aren't willing or competent enough to property use the cap space that they do have. 

 

We're the 6th youngest team in the NFL.  And whether or not you agree they can turn into players, we have the following guys aged 25 or under who were either highly ranked and talented at their respective positions coming out of college OR have so far looked like pleasant surprises:

 

QB Geno Smith (23)

RB Bilal Powell (25)

WR Jeremy Kerley (25)

TE Jace Amaro (22)

NT Damon Harrison (25)

DE Sheldon Richardson (23)

DE Muhammad Wilkerson (24)

LB Demario Davis (25)

DE/LB IK Enemkpali (23)

DE/LB Quinton Coples (24) -- Yeah, even in his 3rd season he's 24.  Still time for this cat.

CB Dee Milliner (22)

CB Dexter McDougle (23) -- Before his ACL tear he was getting rave reviews. 

FS Calvin Pryor (22)

SS Antonio Allen (25)

 

 

That's 14 promising players 25 or under, and I may have missed some that are currently buried on the depth chart and might emerge later.  You'll notice they're spread nicely across the roster, which is a very good sign.  You'll also notice that half of the names have been acquired in the past 2 offseasons. 

 

If Geno proves to not be "the guy" this season, we'll likely be going after another young QB in the draft to replace him.

 

I'm sure you can pick apart each and every one of them for one reason or the other.  But this is a lot closer to a "slew" than just 3-4.  You're flat out wrong there.

 

Then you bring up the cap stuff as if that ties in somehow.  The FA dollars are not intended to be used to build the core of a team.  The best teams in the NFL use their FA dollars sparingly, so I'd say that Idzik is following the "proper" model.

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3-4 who are standout NFL players and that includes Pryor. The rest are huge question marks. 

 

You didn't say "standouts".  You said "talented".  Rookies don't develop right away.  We have a nice slew of young talent.  That is undeniable.

 

Are you already including Pryor as a standout?  When he hasn't played a down yet?

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It gets worse if you don't include him...

 

Indeed, if you write the other guys off it does get worse.  But I'm not willing to do that yet.  You know, because most of them are still developing.  Something young players do and stuff.

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure but there are guys on that list that we all know won't become standouts, there are some that have a chance, and 3 that already are if you don't count Pryor. Every team in the NFL has guys in their 20s who might be good. That really isn't saying anything.  

 

If you knock off guys who definitely won't be standouts, and instead will just be capable players in their respective roles, you still get this list of standouts (already standouts or potential standouts):

 

QB Geno Smith (23)

TE Jace Amaro (22)

NT Damon Harrison (25)

DE Sheldon Richardson (23)

DE Muhammad Wilkerson (24)

LB Demario Davis (25)

DE/LB IK Enemkpali (23)

DE/LB Quinton Coples (24)

CB Dee Milliner (22)

CB Dexter McDougle (23)

FS Calvin Pryor (22)

 

 

You cannot say at this time that Geno Smith, a 2nd-year QB, cannot possibly be a standout.  Harrison, Richardson and Wilkerson are already standouts, with Wilkerson a legit star.  Davis is the QB of the defense and if he's not a standout yet, he's getting close.  Coples is in the 2nd season of a positional change, though admittedly, the bust potential is highest with him.  Milliner was Defensive Rookie of the Month last December, is 22, and is still learning the position with the steepest learning curve.  The rest haven't played a down in the NFL yet.

 

11 standouts or potential standouts.  That's half of a starting lineup right there.  I'm even fine with you knocking Davis and Coples off the list.  Still a lot more than the "3-4" number you presented.

Edited by Jetsfan80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I'd approach him gently, I didn't want to be accused of blindly insulting anyone

 

That happens at least 10 times a day here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  



Content Partnership

Yes Network

Site Sponsor

MILE-Social - NJ Social Media & SEO company
×
×
  • Create New...