Jump to content

The Need For Spread


win4ever
 Share

Recommended Posts

I'm sorry, but enough of this 1980's BS, run the ball and hope to convert on 3rd and 5 crap.   The game is catered extremely to run the fact paced spread system, everything from the penalties on CBs, the penalties on QB hits, and even the replay challenge functions favor teams that go up tempo.   

 

We see castoffs such as Sanchez actually be talked about as a viable fantasy option, mainly because of a system, yet why do we implement such a system or get someone that can actually do it?  The college ranks is filled with these systems, that make the reads immensely easier for QBs, get playmakers in open space, and put pressure on the defense on every play.   

 

However, it has to be a balanced system that can either run or pass at a high rate given the opponent, which is what I think makes Chip Kelly's system brilliant, because for as much as they get publicity for throwing the ball, they have a system that runs the ball equally if not more often (albeit this is skewed by also having a mobile QB).  So if they face a team with tough run blocking, they can pass, and if the team is a good pass defending team, they can run without altering their offense too much.  

 

Also, it is the market inefficiency right now because teams are still dealing with rosters that were created to defend both the pass and the run at a similar rate.  As teams adjust the other way, the inefficency is going to start to run towards balanced, and then possibly towards running the ball.  So a system like the Air Raid, which relies on the pass to set up the run, might work overall, but is more prone to getting shut down from time to time based on matchups, although every system can run into a rut because the guys running defenses aren't dummies either.  

 

I don't want another Cowher here to play smashmouth football, trying to be the toughest guys on the field, when those guys are being systematically eliminated from the game.  I understand going against the grain, but at some point you also have to learn to adapt to the changes.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but enough of this 1980's BS, run the ball and hope to convert on 3rd and 5 crap.   The game is catered extremely to run the fact paced spread system, everything from the penalties on CBs, the penalties on QB hits, and even the replay challenge functions favor teams that go up tempo.   

 

We see castoffs such as Sanchez actually be talked about as a viable fantasy option, mainly because of a system, yet why do we implement such a system or get someone that can actually do it?  The college ranks is filled with these systems, that make the reads immensely easier for QBs, get playmakers in open space, and put pressure on the defense on every play.   

 

However, it has to be a balanced system that can either run or pass at a high rate given the opponent, which is what I think makes Chip Kelly's system brilliant, because for as much as they get publicity for throwing the ball, they have a system that runs the ball equally if not more often (albeit this is skewed by also having a mobile QB).  So if they face a team with tough run blocking, they can pass, and if the team is a good pass defending team, they can run without altering their offense too much.  

 

Also, it is the market inefficiency right now because teams are still dealing with rosters that were created to defend both the pass and the run at a similar rate.  As teams adjust the other way, the inefficency is going to start to run towards balanced, and then possibly towards running the ball.  So a system like the Air Raid, which relies on the pass to set up the run, might work overall, but is more prone to getting shut down from time to time based on matchups, although every system can run into a rut because the guys running defenses aren't dummies either.  

 

I don't want another Cowher here to play smashmouth football, trying to be the toughest guys on the field, when those guys are being systematically eliminated from the game.  I understand going against the grain, but at some point you also have to learn to adapt to the changes.  

 

Agreed 100%.  Idzik has to find a coaching staff committed and capable of developing a legitimate passing attack that can be elite with the right QB and good enough while your searching for the right QB.  Its the only way to win in this water down pussified version of Football.

 

I think its interesting you used the Eagles in comparison considering the break down on run vs. pass is virtually identical.  I know the argument will be, yeah well the Jets have been trailing, but so have the Eagles.  They've had a handful of come from behind victories this season.  FWIW, while the media talks about the passing attack, Kelly has always said it set up by the run game.  

 

Jets 266 run vs. 325 pass.

Eagles 232 run vs. 334 pass

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exactly, it's the system that can help make the QB, instead of the other way around.  Although if someone is successful in it, then we're going to have to pay them.   But that's a good problem to have.  

 

Meh, you still need the QB.

 

To stay with the Eagles as an example, Sanchez still turned the ball over twice and had another INT gift dropped.  Houston sucks, so they got away with it. Even Foles, while he had a brilliant year last year with just 1 pick, he hasnt been nearly as careful with the Football this season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry, but enough of this 1980's BS, run the ball and hope to convert on 3rd and 5 crap.   The game is catered extremely to run the fact paced spread system, everything from the penalties on CBs, the penalties on QB hits, and even the replay challenge functions favor teams that go up tempo.   

 

We see castoffs such as Sanchez actually be talked about as a viable fantasy option, mainly because of a system, yet why do we implement such a system or get someone that can actually do it?  The college ranks is filled with these systems, that make the reads immensely easier for QBs, get playmakers in open space, and put pressure on the defense on every play.   

 

However, it has to be a balanced system that can either run or pass at a high rate given the opponent, which is what I think makes Chip Kelly's system brilliant, because for as much as they get publicity for throwing the ball, they have a system that runs the ball equally if not more often (albeit this is skewed by also having a mobile QB).  So if they face a team with tough run blocking, they can pass, and if the team is a good pass defending team, they can run without altering their offense too much.  

 

Also, it is the market inefficiency right now because teams are still dealing with rosters that were created to defend both the pass and the run at a similar rate.  As teams adjust the other way, the inefficency is going to start to run towards balanced, and then possibly towards running the ball.  So a system like the Air Raid, which relies on the pass to set up the run, might work overall, but is more prone to getting shut down from time to time based on matchups, although every system can run into a rut because the guys running defenses aren't dummies either.  

 

I don't want another Cowher here to play smashmouth football, trying to be the toughest guys on the field, when those guys are being systematically eliminated from the game.  I understand going against the grain, but at some point you also have to learn to adapt to the changes.  

Sorry but did anyone watch the last SB ? Has anyone watched the last 14 SB's ? 90% of those teams had good running games and great defense. Even when the Saints won the SB they had one of the best rushing attacks in the NFL. Running Defense and Ball control WR's that can move the chains when needed win games, high flying offenses usually get smacked in the face come playoff time.

 

I get what your saying here, you want the best of both worlds, but to become the Cowboys of the 90's or the Pats of the early 2000's its going to take a hell of a lot of talent on both sides of the ball and when we had the chance to become dominant 5/6 years ago we dropped the ball not persuing solid WR's for our young QB to grow with. With some smart moves by a good organization we could have contended for a SB for years instead we just destroyed the team with dumb move after dumb move most likely influenced by a dumb Idiot HC named Rex Ryan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but did anyone watch the last SB ? Has anyone watched the last 14 SB's ? 90% of those teams had good running games and great defense. Even when the Saints won the SB they had one of the best rushing attacks in the NFL. Running Defense and Ball control WR's that can move the chains when needed win games, high flying offenses usually get smacked in the face come playoff time.

 

I get what your saying here, you want the best of both worlds, but to become the Cowboys of the 90's or the Pats of the early 2000's its going to take a hell of a lot of talent on both sides of the ball and when we had the chance to become dominant 5/6 years ago we dropped the ball not persuing solid WR's for our young QB to grow with. With some smart moves by a good organization we could have contended for a SB for years instead we just destroyed the team with dumb move after dumb move most likely influenced by a dumb Idiot HC named Rex Ryan

In the last Super Bowl, the  wiinigng team scored over 30 points. 2 Super Bowls ago featuring supposed run/good defense team featured both teams scoring over 30 points. You aren't scoring 30+ points babbling about running the ball. There's a reason backs are no longer "feature backs" nor well-paid. You need to run the ball form time to time to keep the defense guessing to set up play action, and to run the clock alte in the game if you're ahead. But you have to pass to score.

 

Simply the red/yellow/green, ground and pound nonsense is not gonna work. You have to pass effectively. And as to defense between the rules and the offenses, you are gonna get beat a few times a game no matter how good youa re. You still need a decent defense, but you need to grasp that you have to score some ponts to overcome those breakdowns.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the last Super Bowl, the  wiinigng team scored over 30 points. 2 Super Bowls ago featuring supposed run/good defense team featured both teams scoring over 30 points. You aren't scoring 30+ points babbling about running the ball. There's a reason backs are no longer "feature backs" nor well-paid. You need to run the ball form time to time to keep the defense guessing to set up play action, and to run the clock alte in the game if you're ahead. But you have to pass to score.

 

Simply the red/yellow/green, ground and pound nonsense is not gonna work. You have to pass effectively. And as to defense between the rules and the offenses, you are gonna get beat a few times a game no matter how good youa re. You still need a decent defense, but you need to grasp that you have to score some ponts to overcome those breakdowns.

Points are NOT exclusive to passing the football ....The Seahawks scored a lot of points because they destroyed the vaunted passing attack of the broncos and made Peyton Manning look like horse sh*t. They ran the ball down their throats and won the field p[osition game by a large margin. Mots SB blowouts are caused by one team protecting the football and the other team turning it over not because of elite passing games. Even the greatest show on turf was all made possible by a guy named Marshall Faulk who was damn near impossible to deal with. Same way Jammal Charles is today always nice to have a muti purpose back who can dominate a game .... IMO the direction of the NFL and teams who think they need an elite passing game to win in the playoffs are directed by idiots . Late in the season and in the playoffs running the football to win and CLOSE OUT games is what gets it done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Points are NOT exclusive to passing the football ....The Seahawks scored a lot of points because they destroyed the vaunted passing attack of the broncos and made Peyton Manning look like horse sh*t. They ran the ball down their throats and won the field p[osition game by a large margin. Mots SB blowouts are caused by one team protecting the football and the other team turning it over not because of elite passing games. Even the greatest show on turf was all made possible by a guy named Marshall Faulk who was damn near impossible to deal with. Same way Jammal Charles is today always nice to have a muti purpose back who can dominate a game .... IMO the direction of the NFL and teams who think they need an elite passing game to win in the playoffs are directed by idiots . Late in the season and in the playoffs running the football to win and CLOSE OUT games is what gets it done.

Seattle didn't pass very much (18-26, 200 or so yards, 2 TDs) because they didn't have to being up 3 scores most of the 2nd half. You are confusing an outcome of winning and leading in an NFL game with causation. The highlighted portion at the end of your comments is hurting the lede herein.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201402020den.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good teams do both well. The opponent and the game situation dictate what a well-coached offense will do.

I agree with the major point of the thread-- that Today's game favors the vertical passing game. I'm not buying his west coast sh*t. Get vertical already!!! MM is beyond frustrating, but the guy has two unprepared idiots running the show, so I'll withhold my torch and pitchfork.

Doesn't it feel like we're the only team in the goddamn league that doesn't consistently throw down the seams, deep outs, deep ins, etc? it feels like I haven't seen a pass go further than 20 yds in the air all year long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed 100%.  Idzik has to find a coaching staff committed and capable of developing a legitimate passing attack that can be elite with the right QB and good enough while your searching for the right QB.  Its the only way to win in this water down pussified version of Football.

 

I think its interesting you used the Eagles in comparison considering the break down on run vs. pass is virtually identical.  I know the argument will be, yeah well the Jets have been trailing, but so have the Eagles.  They've had a handful of come from behind victories this season.  FWIW, while the media talks about the passing attack, Kelly has always said it set up by the run game.  

 

Jets 266 run vs. 325 pass.

Eagles 232 run vs. 334 pass

 

Yeah, you can't go with the smash mouth type of football from before, because sooner or later, you are getting a penalty and setting back your drives.   

 

Yeah Kelly mentioned that a few times saying how they are a running team.  I think inherently, the system he runs actually needs a running QB (hence why Vick won the competition last year, because he fits that system in terms of talent better) because it provides another option that the defense has to contend for.  Kelly most likely adjusted the calls when Foles was inserted last year.  Just going by box scores from the first four games last year, the breakdown of pass attempts vs rushes actually comes out exactly the same at 129 per each.  I didn't count the 5th game since Foles came in that came.  But atleast from the first four games, it seemed they were going even, albeit it's skewed by an early season game against SD where it was 47:18 pass to rush ration.  But I think that's a good coach adjusting to the opposition because SD had a horrible secondary last year, especially at the start of the year and Vick threw for 428 yards.  

 

Their spread offense is essentially based on exposing mismatches for the Eagles.  It's ingenious (and widely adopted in college now) where they rush to the line to see what the defense is doing.  They get certain set plays to run if the defense is in a weak formation.  However, if not, the entire team turns around and looks at the sideline for the call.  This is essentially the same thing that guys like Brady and Manning can do, but instead of waiting for a QB to develop the understanding of the game to read these defenses at a high level, they rely on the coaching staff based on the defensive look.  Essentially transferring the mind of an elite QB to the coach in terms of calling plays at the line, and relying on talent.  This puts the defense on conservative more times than not, which can only help.  The more space the better for offenses, because the offensive players know where they are running, so the defensive players are reactive, and they can make people miss in open field.  

 

Meh, you still need the QB.

 

To stay with the Eagles as an example, Sanchez still turned the ball over twice and had another INT gift dropped.  Houston sucks, so they got away with it. Even Foles, while he had a brilliant year last year with just 1 pick, he hasnt been nearly as careful with the Football this season.

 

I think the case of Foles this year, is mainly that they don't have the secondary option at WR that they need to run the system.  As I mentioned in the Helrich post, I believe their system relies on a possession WR and a dynamic deep threat guy to move the safety deep and out of the play.  Last year Jackson was a big enough threat for this to happen, but neither Huff nor Mathews are really as big of a threat down deep yet.  They don't have the balance they achieved last year, hence why Maclin seems to have a heavy target set right now.  

 

It's not going to make a horrible QB, good, but it can mask some faults.  I don't really buy Sanchez being good here, but there is going to be a tangible difference if he is playing for us, or playing for them, and I think a decent amount of that change is going to be based on the system.  He might not be a star or even good, but I'd say he's going to be better than he would've been with us.  

 

Sorry but did anyone watch the last SB ? Has anyone watched the last 14 SB's ? 90% of those teams had good running games and great defense. Even when the Saints won the SB they had one of the best rushing attacks in the NFL. Running Defense and Ball control WR's that can move the chains when needed win games, high flying offenses usually get smacked in the face come playoff time.

 

I get what your saying here, you want the best of both worlds, but to become the Cowboys of the 90's or the Pats of the early 2000's its going to take a hell of a lot of talent on both sides of the ball and when we had the chance to become dominant 5/6 years ago we dropped the ball not persuing solid WR's for our young QB to grow with. With some smart moves by a good organization we could have contended for a SB for years instead we just destroyed the team with dumb move after dumb move most likely influenced by a dumb Idiot HC named Rex Ryan

 

I think more and more teams that are making the playoffs are doing it with speed and spread factored in.  There are exceptions to every rule, so teams like Seattle can buck the trend.  But Seattle won that championship based mainly on their defense that could shut down offenses, and then control the clock with their offense.  It's essentially what we used to do in '09 and '10, but it takes a lot of creative drafting to sustain, because these defensive players would want to get paid and eventually that side is going to suffer.  So a smart GM would have to counteract the loss on defense by improving the offense on the cheap, which we didn't do.  

 

Seattle is trying to do that as well, hence why they moved on from Tate, and drafted Richardson, probably going to move on from Lynch as well, with the drafts of Michael and I want to say Turbin (not sure).  And Harvin as well, because to pay the defense, they need to improve the offense on the cheap.  

 

I think part of it also has to do with getting there, and team makeup.  A team like the Saints have a world class offense these past two years (aided by a great QB), but have lost because their defense is horrible.  The Pats have faced the same situation, Packers as well.   It'd be nice to have balance, but a spread system SHOULD theoretically improve offense.  

 

I think my best example would be the Dolphins.  They hired the guy from Philly, Lazor, and retained pretty much the same cast of characters from last year's offense and they've been much better this year on offense.   According to Football Outsiders, Miami is 13th in pass, and 5th in rush this year on team offense, while they were 20th and 18th respectively last year.  That's a major jump.  

 

In the last Super Bowl, the  wiinigng team scored over 30 points. 2 Super Bowls ago featuring supposed run/good defense team featured both teams scoring over 30 points. You aren't scoring 30+ points babbling about running the ball. There's a reason backs are no longer "feature backs" nor well-paid. You need to run the ball form time to time to keep the defense guessing to set up play action, and to run the clock alte in the game if you're ahead. But you have to pass to score.

 

Simply the red/yellow/green, ground and pound nonsense is not gonna work. You have to pass effectively. And as to defense between the rules and the offenses, you are gonna get beat a few times a game no matter how good youa re. You still need a decent defense, but you need to grasp that you have to score some ponts to overcome those breakdowns.

 

Right, that Superbowl was misleading because that defense was just nasty and once Seahawks were up, they didn't have to do much, other than control the clock.  But most teams have to score points now in bunches, and then let the defenses hold it.  Backs in spread systems tend to be interchangeable a lot more than the regular system because it's really trying to focus on creating one on one matchups for the run.  So for a team like Oregon, we see guys like D'Anthony Thomas, Byron Marshall, Kenjon Barner all look like all world backs because they are talented enough with speed to beat one on one matchups.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seattle didn't pass very much (18-26, 200 or so yards, 2 TDs) because they didn't have to being up 3 scores most of the 2nd half. You are confusing an outcome of winning and leading in an NFL game with causation. The highlighted portion at the end of your comments is hurting the lede herein.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201402020den.htm

 

yeah but over the entire season they did run the ball more than they threw it.

 

It was one year, maybe a fluke but I think we have seen alot of teams that have been pass happy units go and lose Super Bowls, playoff games and regular season games.

 

You can win either way. Probably the best way it still to have that 50-50 balance run to pass and play so the defense can't sit and throw 8 in a box to stop the run or drop 7 or 8 cause you can't run the ball at all. 

 

I don't care how the Jets do it. Run the Spread, Ground and Pound, Wishbone, Run and Shoot, Veer just find some kind of an offense that isn't a complete abortion like it has been the past three seasons and go. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yeah but over the entire season they did run the ball more than they threw it.

 

It was one year, maybe a fluke but I think we have seen alot of teams that have been pass happy units go and lose Super Bowls, playoff games and regular season games.

 

You can win either way. Probably the best way it still to have that 50-50 balance run to pass and play so the defense can't sit and throw 8 in a box to stop the run or drop 7 or 8 cause you can't run the ball at all. 

 

I don't care how the Jets do it. Run the Spread, Ground and Pound, Wishbone, Run and Shoot, Veer just find some kind of an offense that isn't a complete abortion like it has been the past three seasons and go. 

 

Getty_Patriots_Team.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CA

 

I do not think you need to have a 50/50 balance, but you need to be good at both. And by good, I do not mean padding stats by running out of a passing formation. The QB is under center and the OL pushes the DL off the line so the RB can gain yards.

 

That is one thing the Patriots have rarely done since 2007.

 

They are on pace to score 500 points for the 5th time in 8 seasons, but if we are relying on Shane Vereen to be our running game...the Patriots could be another playoff bust.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getty_Patriots_Team.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CA

I do not think you need to have a 50/50 balance, but you need to be good at both. And by good, I do not mean padding stats by running out of a passing formation. The QB is under center and the OL pushes the DL off the line so the RB can gain yards.

That is one thing the Patriots have rarely done since 2007.

They are on pace to score 500 points for the 5th time in 8 seasons, but if we are relying on Shane Vereen to be our running game...the Patriots could be another playoff bust.

"Playoff bust" damn what I would give...

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share



×
×
  • Create New...