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Scouting Department needs to go as well......


joewilly12
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I agree with you , perhaps Bradway and Idzik aren't as big of an issue as they appear. Player development and utilization plays just as much a role in whether a drafted college kid blossoms in the pros.

Been saying this for weeks. This is why I didnt understand the fire Idzik approach. His draft picks for the most part didnt pan out, but when has any draft pan out while Rex was the HC? Idzik has most likely become a place holder for a new GM/HC that will have the benefit of the cap he cleared, young players and a plethora of young talent that couldn't be tapped by Rex Ryan. 

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2006
First round: OT D'Brickashaw Ferguson* 
First round: C Nick Mangold* 
Second round: QB Kellen Clemens 
Third round: LB Anthony Schlegel 
Third round: S Eric Smith 
Fourth round: QB Brad Smith 
Fourth round: RB Leon Washington* 
Fifth round: TE Jason Pociask 
Sixth round: CB Drew Coleman 
Seventh round: DT Titus Adams 

2007
First round: CB Darrelle Revis* 
Second round: LB David Harris* 
Sixth round: OT Jacob Bender 
Seventh round: WR Chansi Stuckey 

2008
First round: DE Vernon Gholston 
First round: TE Dustin Keller* 
Fourth round: CB Dwight Lowery 
Fifth round: QB Erik Ainge 
Sixth round: WR Marcus Henry 
Seventh round: OT Nate Garner 

2009
First round: QB Mark Sanchez* 
Third round: RB Shonn Greene* 
Sixth round: OG Matt Slauson* 

2010
First round: CB Kyle Wilson 
Second round: OT Vladimir Ducasse 
Fourth round: RB Joe McKnight 
Fifth round: FB John Conner 

2011
First round: DE Muhammad Wilkerson* 
Third round: DT Kenrick Ellis 
Fourth round: RB Bilal Powell* 
Fifth round: WR Jeremy Kerley* 
Seventh round: QB Greg McElroy 
Seventh round: WR Scotty McKnight 

2012
First round: DE Quinton Coples*
Second round: WR Stephen Hill 
Third round: LB Demario Davis* 
Sixth round: S Josh Bush 
Sixth round: RB Terrance Ganaway 
Sixth round: OG Robert Griffin 
Seventh round: S Antonio Allen 
Seventh round: WR Jordan White

*Significant impact player/consistent starter

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Damon Harrison was an undrafted free agent. Leger Douzable was an undrafted Free agent when he entered the league. Kendrick Ellis was a 3rd round pick . This is just his success here in NY, he did the same thing in Minnesota as well. This guy gets the job done so he stays. I personally would like him to be promoted because of it. 

 

Hard to say if he should be promoted or not. Some guys are great position coaches. To get promoted to coordinator, he's going to be game planning for the entire defense not just going over technique and tape with a half dozen players. He has to have an eye for strategy. I'm not saying Dunbar doesn't have this. Just saying it's not a given that he does. And though it's not fair to him, the fact is the HC was also a DL coach who is very hands-on in teaching technique (at least to these players) in his own right. Because of past success, I can't lay all of Dunbar's success at the feet (feet!) of Ryan or having a dreamy group of players to coach. But he can be both a top notch DL coach and an awful DC.

 

I'd like to keep him at his current position. Except in the case that someone else promotes him to DC and he's great. Then I'd like to go back in time and have the Jets promote him before that happens. 

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How did this change from Bradway to Rex really? If you followed me and my feelings on Rex at this point then you would know that everything you just said to me is like preaching to the choir. Though I would agree that Rex would have found a way to make Jeffery and Wilson look like busts, in reality the topic was Bradway.

 

If Kerley (nowhere near the prospect Jeffery was) didn't turn out as a bust I don't see why there's the assumption that Jeffery would have. As it's been discussed, it's not like it's Ryan that's been obsessing over WR technique. Other talented WRs have done ok here as well. They didn't have eye-popping stats, but look who was throwing the ball since 2009 (not to mention we haven't exactly been throwing the ball 600-700x per season either).

All that aside, all the key people should go. Bradway, Rex, Idzik, Mornhinweg, Thurman, McGaughey. Most position coaches as well.

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Hard to say if he should be promoted or not. Some guys are great position coaches. To get promoted to coordinator, he's going to be game planning for the entire defense not just going over technique and tape with a half dozen players. He has to have an eye for strategy. I'm not saying Dunbar doesn't have this. Just saying it's not a given that he does. And though it's not fair to him, the fact is the HC was also a DL coach who is very hands-on in teaching technique (at least to these players) in his own right. Because of past success, I can't lay all of Dunbar's success at the feet (feet!) of Ryan or having a dreamy group of players to coach. But he can be both a top notch DL coach and an awful DC.

 

I'd like to keep him at his current position. Except in the case that someone else promotes him to DC and he's great. Then I'd like to go back in time and have the Jets promote him before that happens. 

All this is correct. Karl Dunbar has been successful doing what he does on both the professional and college level. There's a "strategy" to that. Maybe this guy can extrapolate that into other areas of our defense. 

I understand that you would like to keep him as the DL coach, but the guy has been that for his entire career. Someone is going to notice that he's had nothing but success and take a flier on him and I think that he will get it done because no matter the team, no matter the players, no matter the coaches, GM's or personalities, at the end of the season whatever this guy was in charge of ended up being a success. At 3-11 it would take more balls to actually be cautious and play it safe at this time than it would to take a chance on a guy who does nothing but succeed. Success is contagious, sometimes that attitude is really all you need. 

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If Kerley (nowhere near the prospect Jeffery was) didn't turn out as a bust I don't see why there's the assumption that Jeffery would have. As it's been discussed, it's not like it's Ryan that's been obsessing over WR technique. Other talented WRs have done ok here as well. They didn't have eye-popping stats, but look who was throwing the ball since 2009 (not to mention we haven't exactly been throwing the ball 600-700x per season either).

All that aside, all the key people should go. Bradway, Rex, Idzik, Mornhinweg, Thurman, McGaughey. Most position coaches as well.

Then let me clarify. The assumption is less about whether Jeffery would end up a bust, but more about getting the most out of Jeffery. Look at Mark Sanchez. Sanchez has never had a season here where he threw for 3,500 yards. In 8 games under Chip, Sanchez was on pace to throw for 4,300 yards. Sanchez never had a completion rate higher than 56.7 in a season. Sanchez has a completion percentage of 64.1 with Chip. Sanchez highest yards average throwing the ball came in his rookie year with 6.71 yards. With Chip, 7.79 yards. Sanchez never had a season with the Jets where he had 4 or more 300 yards games in a season, under Chip Sanchez had 4 in 8 games. Better yet, Sanchez threw for 200 or more yards in 7 of his 8 games. While in new york it was the norm to see Sanchez have 150, 160, 170 yards passing in a game and we called it "protecting" Sanchez. 

Now some would immediately turn to Sanchez last game against the Redskins and his pick in the 4th qtr. and make it some reason that its guys like Sanchez that would keep guys like Jeffery from being successful given that he's the QB. Can't blame Rex for that one right?. Well, I look at Jordan Matthews out in Philly and he had a solid rookie season. I see that Jeremy Maclin almost mirrors Eric Deckers stats for the season in just 8 games. Mark Sanchez was their QB. Matthews began to turn it on the moment Sanchez became his QB. And in that Redskins game, Sanchez threw the ball 50 times, completed 75% of his passes and threw for almost 400 yards with 2 TD's. Something that would be considered a f'ing miracle if he ever did in a Jets jersey under Rex Ryan's control. The "kid" that we had to protect week in and week out with our rushing game and elite cornerbacks is putting up numbers for chip...something that if he did here with this defense we'd win a f'ing Super Bowl. Thats on Rex Ryan and the coaches, not Tanny or Idzik (Geno). 

 

My point here is that I'm assuming, and I have always assumed that these draft picks aren't as bad as we like to make it out to be (even Idzik's picks). I think that Rex Ryan and these coaches/coordinators, such as Sanjay Lal and Marty, are the main reason why we're not getting much out of players, not just on offense but on defense as well. Maybe Rex needs to obsess a bit more in these areas of development. 

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joewilly12, on 25 Dec 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

Scouting bosses deserve scrutiny, too

Whoever the Jets hire as general manager must take a long look at the team’s scouting department.

It’s easy to blame John Idzik for every personnel choice that was made in the past two years, but he has been leaning on his scouting department, which has done a terrible job. It has been almost a decade since a Jets had a draft you could point to and say they nailed it. The 2006 draft is the last one that was really solid.

It is time to take a long look at senior director of college scouting Terry Bradway, who has been involved with the Jets drafts for 14 years. It is impossible to know which players Bradway is directly responsible for and which he was overruled on, but overall the Jets have not drafted well in years and it is killing them.

Who is the last mid- or late-round draft pick that has emerged as a star for the Jets? Jeremy Kerley, a 2011 fifth-rounder, is a solid player, but he’s not a star. If you look around the league, the best teams are not the ones that nail their first-round picks, but those that find gems in the middle and late rounds. The Jets have failed miserably doing that.

Idzik’s two drafts have been soundly criticized. The early returns on those drafts is not good, but failure in the 2013 or ’14 drafts are not the reason the Jets are 3-12. Failure in the drafts from 2008-12 is. The core of this team should have come from those drafts. There are no players on this roster from the 2008 or ’09 drafts. Only Kyle Wilson remains from 2010 (John Conner returned as a free agent.) Muhammad Wilkerson is a star, Kerley is a strong third receiver and Demario Davis is a solid starter. The rest of the 2011 and 2012 drafts are weak.

When Johnson starts making changes, it can’t just stop with Idzik and Rex Ryan. The entire scouting operation needs to be looked at.

 

Absolutely agree 100000%, but Idzik has to go too, his negative vibe has destroyed this franchise.

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We havent had a good draft in damn near 10 years. Christ.

The Mangold/ Ferguson 06' and the Revis/ Harris 07' drafts were the peak of Bradways reign. Our success in 09' and 10' was because of the foundation those 4 provided. 3 of them are still with us ( and all four should be, but that's a different dicussion. )

Frankly, Tannenbaum traded away draft picks like tic tacs. I think in the Sanchez draft we only drafted 3 players total. In 2013 we had 3 just in the first 39 picks. And a total of 12 this past year. It may be a bit of a culture shock for our draft department. The other thing is people do burn out. Maybe Bradway needs a change of scenery.

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Then let me clarify. The assumption is less about whether Jeffery would end up a bust, but more about getting the most out of Jeffery. Look at Mark Sanchez. Sanchez has never had a season here where he threw for 3,500 yards. In 8 games under Chip, Sanchez was on pace to throw for 4,300 yards. Sanchez never had a completion rate higher than 56.7 in a season. Sanchez has a completion percentage of 64.1 with Chip. Sanchez highest yards average throwing the ball came in his rookie year with 6.71 yards. With Chip, 7.79 yards. Sanchez never had a season with the Jets where he had 4 or more 300 yards games in a season, under Chip Sanchez had 4 in 8 games. Better yet, Sanchez threw for 200 or more yards in 7 of his 8 games. While in new york it was the norm to see Sanchez have 150, 160, 170 yards passing in a game and we called it "protecting" Sanchez. 

Now some would immediately turn to Sanchez last game against the Redskins and his pick in the 4th qtr. and make it some reason that its guys like Sanchez that would keep guys like Jeffery from being successful given that he's the QB. Can't blame Rex for that one right?. Well, I look at Jordan Matthews out in Philly and he had a solid rookie season. I see that Jeremy Maclin almost mirrors Eric Deckers stats for the season in just 8 games. Mark Sanchez was their QB. Matthews began to turn it on the moment Sanchez became his QB. And in that Redskins game, Sanchez threw the ball 50 times, completed 75% of his passes and threw for almost 400 yards with 2 TD's. Something that would be considered a f'ing miracle if he ever did in a Jets jersey under Rex Ryan's control. The "kid" that we had to protect week in and week out with our rushing game and elite cornerbacks is putting up numbers for chip...something that if he did here with this defense we'd win a f'ing Super Bowl. Thats on Rex Ryan and the coaches, not Tanny or Idzik (Geno). 

 

My point here is that I'm assuming, and I have always assumed that these draft picks aren't as bad as we like to make it out to be (even Idzik's picks). I think that Rex Ryan and these coaches/coordinators, such as Sanjay Lal and Marty, are the main reason why we're not getting much out of players, not just on offense but on defense as well. Maybe Rex needs to obsess a bit more in these areas of development.

Sanchez still sucks, dude. Some numbers are better, but he's also on pace for like 30 turnovers even with this superior coaching and surrounding talent. Oddly you omitted that stat.

And the Redskins? The 22nd ranked pass yards against and 31st in pass TDs against, despite only the 2nd most pass attempts against. Not much of an accomplishment. I watched that game and he stunk it up. Stats don't show how he missed on key easy passes. Or how he may have connected for an easy first down that should have been an easy TD. And this wasn't nearly the only game he's done that, for Kelly or for us.

He's still lousy.

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Sanchez still sucks, dude. Some numbers are better, but he's also on pace for like 30 turnovers even with this superior coaching and surrounding talent. Oddly you omitted that stat.

And the Redskins? The 22nd ranked pass yards against and 31st in pass TDs against, despite only the 2nd most pass attempts against. Not much of an accomplishment. I watched that game and he stunk it up. Stats don't show how he missed on key easy passes. Or how he may have connected for an easy first down that should have been an easy TD. And this wasn't nearly the only game he's done that, for Kelly or for us.

He's still lousy.

Actually, he's on pace for 26 turnovers, which would be less than what he had with us during his last full season with us, the difference however is that if we would have been able to have this Sanchez, a guy who has a QBR of over 80 for the first time in a season (another stat that I oddly omitted that he's never achieved with the Jets), along with the fact that he's actually moving the offense, which is what the Jets actually need, then we could be one of those teams that could compete for a Super Bowl even with a guy turning the ball over 26 times. Just ask Eli Manning. Eli Manning was always a different guy once in the playoffs, which reminds me of the 4 and 2 Mark Sanchez. 

 

He's still lousy, but his lousiness in Philly would have us in the playoffs right now, and its because of the coaching and coordinators that cant seem to get the most of out their players. You can call Mark what you what (which is true by the way) but you know that those stats that I either stated or oddly omitted would have this entire fan base estatic because we probably would have had a home playoff game if we had that Mark Sanchez on this Jets football team. 

 

Your opinion of him doesnt change my opinion of our coaching staff, it only further shows how lousy our coaching staff is when another coaching staff can take such a lousy player and basically double his production while keeping his turn over's virtually the same. 

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I think half the Jets scouting department is excellent actually.  NFL teams basically have two parts to their scouting departments.  One part scouts college players for the upcoming draft, another scouts the waiver wire, other teams' practice squads, and off the street guys.  there's an overlap in the Free Agency scouting responsibilities.  With the lack of drafted talent, that second group (usually younger, up-and-coming scouts) has done a solid job of keeping this team somewhat competitive (game-to-game, obviously the record is awful).  Between CB, RB, and WR alone, they've had their work cut out for them over the past year.  I say we decapitate and promote.  Let the younger guys step in and use their energy and desire to climb the ranks fuel the next few drafts.  Bradway and his ilk have just lost touch.  We could have followed Kiper's board and done better with no scouting department at all last year.

Good one.  I thought about Kiper myself several times--  he recommended John Brown as a steal ; and was puzzled by our Dexter McDougle pick;  who we reached for.    I wanted E.J. Gaines

for Corner and Rams got him in 6th round and he's doing very well and starting.!     Most of us Jets fans did better than Idzik and his scouts on the draft and we don't get paid the big bucks like they do.

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Good one.  I thought about Kiper myself several times--  he recommended John Brown as a steal ; and was puzzled by our Dexter McDougle pick;  who we reached for.    I wanted E.J. Gaines

for Corner and Rams got him in 6th round and he's doing very well and starting.!     Most of us Jets fans did better than Idzik and his scouts on the draft and we don't get paid the big bucks like they do.

Kiper is a complete hack who loves everyone. When your draft rankings go 100 deep its easy to say - he was on my list.. Bottom line the draft is a crapshoot and just as much onus falls on player development and utilization then on the actual drafter in this year's case Idzik. 

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Actually, he's on pace for 26 turnovers, which would be less than what he had with us during his last full season with us, the difference however is that if we would have been able to have this Sanchez, a guy who has a QBR of over 80 for the first time in a season (another stat that I oddly omitted that he's never achieved with the Jets), along with the fact that he's actually moving the offense, which is what the Jets actually need, then we could be one of those teams that could compete for a Super Bowl even with a guy turning the ball over 26 times. Just ask Eli Manning. Eli Manning was always a different guy once in the playoffs, which reminds me of the 4 and 2 Mark Sanchez. 

 

He's still lousy, but his lousiness in Philly would have us in the playoffs right now, and its because of the coaching and coordinators that cant seem to get the most of out their players. You can call Mark what you what (which is true by the way) but you know that those stats that I either stated or oddly omitted would have this entire fan base estatic because we probably would have had a home playoff game if we had that Mark Sanchez on this Jets football team. 

 

Your opinion of him doesnt change my opinion of our coaching staff, it only further shows how lousy our coaching staff is when another coaching staff can take such a lousy player and basically double his production while keeping his turn over's virtually the same.

Are you attempting to argue that Chip Kelly runs a better offense, and is a better offensive coach, than Ryan + Schottenheimer/Sparano/Mornhinweg? Yeah, I don't think you'll find many people putting up a fight on that one.

But in this wonderful, QB-friendly system that should be tailor-made for Sanchez's skill set, he turns the ball over as much as he ever did with the Jets (after his rookie season). His interception rate is still hovering around 4% and that doesn't include his 7 fumbles in 7 starts. He still doesn't see things that he should see and still gets mere completions that average and better QBs turn into TDs. A QB can still throw an inaccurate pass and have it completed. And the games I've seen with him - while he absolutely does sprinkle it in with very accurate throws, like he did here - he's throwing to very open receivers. It's a good system for him because it's not required for him to survey the field or even the pre-snap defensive look. Zip zip zip, hurry up to the line, hurry up to snap it, mostly quick timing patterns, and if it isn't there don't force it in. While that - combined with some better offensive coaching - has made some improvements in his numbers it also has its down points. The defense is often dog tired because they're back onto the field so quickly. He's also seen a year (really, 2 years) more with his own eyes since his last start for the Jets, and that isn't nothing either even in the absence of improved offensive/QB coaching. Some of his passing numbers are a bit better, but stats like gross passing yards don't exist in a vacuum, and no team will win anything with him unless there's an all-time great defense holding the opposition to nearly nothing every game.

In a way, the best way to get him to a championship is to have a stingy defense. But when that defense isn't firing on all cylinders all game long, we're going to lose anyway. He's not winning a 40-50 attempt shootout in the playoffs. In the end, he needs a good defense to keep him out of must-pass situations, and a strong ground game to take further pressure off him and open up his receivers' running lanes. He's a bit better than he was, but he still isn't at all a good QB. Any miraculous path to the Super Bowl, with him at QB, is still going to be on the backs of a top defense.

It's why we hopefully get a more rounded HC than Ryan, or even Kelly for that matter. I would rather have all-offense than all-defense, I guess, since in a loss it's just more fun to watch touchdowns than punts and FGs. But really, we need both.

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Hopefully people realize that when the new GM is hired Bradway and his scouts may

still be around until after the draft.  Why???  Because they've been doing all the

scouting for the past year and the new GM will probably want to pick their brains

as he assembles his staff

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Are you attempting to argue that Chip Kelly runs a better offense, and is a better offensive coach, than Ryan + Schottenheimer/Sparano/Mornhinweg? Yeah, I don't think you'll find many people putting up a fight on that one.

But in this wonderful, QB-friendly system that should be tailor-made for Sanchez's skill set, he turns the ball over as much as he ever did with the Jets (after his rookie season). His interception rate is still hovering around 4% and that doesn't include his 7 fumbles in 7 starts. He still doesn't see things that he should see and still gets mere completions that average and better QBs turn into TDs. A QB can still throw an inaccurate pass and have it completed. And the games I've seen with him - while he absolutely does sprinkle it in with very accurate throws, like he did here - he's throwing to very open receivers. It's a good system for him because it's not required for him to survey the field or even the pre-snap defensive look. Zip zip zip, hurry up to the line, hurry up to snap it, mostly quick timing patterns, and if it isn't there don't force it in. While that - combined with some better offensive coaching - has made some improvements in his numbers it also has its down points. The defense is often dog tired because they're back onto the field so quickly. He's also seen a year (really, 2 years) more with his own eyes since his last start for the Jets, and that isn't nothing either even in the absence of improved offensive/QB coaching. Some of his passing numbers are a bit better, but stats like gross passing yards don't exist in a vacuum, and no team will win anything with him unless there's an all-time great defense holding the opposition to nearly nothing every game.

In a way, the best way to get him to a championship is to have a stingy defense. But when that defense isn't firing on all cylinders all game long, we're going to lose anyway. He's not winning a 40-50 attempt shootout in the playoffs. In the end, he needs a good defense to keep him out of must-pass situations, and a strong ground game to take further pressure off him and open up his receivers' running lanes. He's a bit better than he was, but he still isn't at all a good QB. Any miraculous path to the Super Bowl, with him at QB, is still going to be on the backs of a top defense.

It's why we hopefully get a more rounded HC than Ryan, or even Kelly for that matter. I would rather have all-offense than all-defense, I guess, since in a loss it's just more fun to watch touchdowns than punts and FGs. But really, we need both.

Touché

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Hopefully people realize that when the new GM is hired Bradway and his scouts may

still be around until after the draft.  Why???  Because they've been doing all the

scouting for the past year and the new GM will probably want to pick their brains

as he assembles his staff

Also the Jets turned over much of the scouting staff last year already , Bradway was one of the few to stay.

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Crap, that wasn't the response I was looking for at all.

 

And I'm still pissed off you moved to freaking Germany instead of right next door to me so we could back & forth more often.

 

Happy New Year, you dickhead.

 

:beer_Orcish:

Thank you kind sir and happy new year to you, Though I can neither confirm nor deny the dickhead comment! I have to give the newbies the opportunity to find out lol. And Germany was ultimately the greatest decision given that no one gives me sh*t here for being a Jets fan, which I guess is a damn shame by the way! 

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Hopefully people realize that when the new GM is hired Bradway and his scouts may

still be around until after the draft. Why??? Because they've been doing all the

scouting for the past year and the new GM will probably want to pick their brains

as he assembles his staff

Good point, KRL.

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Good one.  I thought about Kiper myself several times--  he recommended John Brown as a steal ; and was puzzled by our Dexter McDougle pick;  who we reached for.    I wanted E.J. Gaines

for Corner and Rams got him in 6th round and he's doing very well and starting.!     Most of us Jets fans did better than Idzik and his scouts on the draft and we don't get paid the big bucks like they do.

Maybe we can hire Trey Wingo and Rich Eisen as GM and head coach too. They seem to know a lot about football.

(I'm being sarcastic but, That's not such a crazy idea considering how many of our former head coaches ended up on ESPN. And there is no question out current HC will be signing a contract with them By 4pm Monday.)

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Thank you kind sir and happy new year to you, Though I can neither confirm nor deny the dickhead comment! I have to give the newbies the opportunity to find out lol. And Germany was ultimately the greatest decision given that no one gives me sh*t here for being a Jets fan, which I guess is a damn shame by the way!

I would have to assume most Germans are patriot fans. Belichick must be somewhat of a kindred spirit over there.

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Kiper is a complete hack who loves everyone. When your draft rankings go 100 deep its easy to say - he was on my list.. Bottom line the draft is a crapshoot and just as much onus falls on player development and utilization then on the actual drafter in this year's case Idzik. 

Kiper has a good memory that is all...he is spoonfed all data. he cannot evaluate talent by himself

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