Doug Marrone Opts Out - MERGED

[AFJF]

So the question is was Mangini better with Chad and Favre as his QB's?? LOL Any playoff wins as a HC?? Didn't think so..

Bingo...Rex had post-season success while Mangini bombed. Glad somebody gets it.

[Ken Schroy]

Kewl thread.

[Savage69]

Bingo...Rex had post-season success while Mangini bombed. Glad somebody gets it.

Look while I liked Rex he had many flaws that kept him from being a complete HC.. I always get a kick out of the Rex hating crowd  making excuses for Herm,Mangini etc who had good QB play where Rex didn't.. That leads into one of Rex's biggest flaws not trying 100% to get the best QB he could get.. His lack of concern for the offense directly led to his demise.. Now if he had a top 10 QB could he win a bowl?? Sure but he never made getting one his top priority and he should have.. 

[Tinstar]

I'd take Mangini w/ a healthy Favre.  The Favre that he had at the end of the season, with the torn bicep in his throwing arm, was the one that kept them out of the playoffs.  But that's because of the healthy Favre part, and not the Mangini part.

 

Who is better between Mangini and Rex isn't important anyway.  It's actually quite irrelevant.  The only reason it came up was because SD, perhaps mistakenly (but again it doesn't matter), suggested that by the metrics proposed, Mangini was better than Rex.  A concept few would likely accept.

Help me out with something here will you ?  Mangini  made his bones on the defensive side of the ball under Beli  Right ?  Who was the offensive coordinator for mangini when Farve was the QB before Farve's shoulder made it an issue throwing the football ? Why didn't the HC bench Farve when it became evident his injury was hurting the offense ? 

[thshadow]

Shouldn't we be comparing Marrone to Bowles / Quinn (instead of Rex / Mangini)?

 

Obviously with coordinator candidates, the upside is unlimited (really unknown).  The chance that any of them actually becomes great is really small however, statistically speaking - especially in their first gig.

 

With Marrone, we know he's taken two terrible programs / teams and made them respectable / decent.  Which is an accomplishment, but it's not the same as making any team great.

 

The GM is probably more important right now.  If he builds a good roster, and the coach can't deliver, it's easy to replace the coach and try again.  If your roster is terrible, though, it takes a lot longer to fix it.

[ZachEY]

I do it all the time. Constantly acknowledge the fact that there are experts who know more than I do about this stuff. As a Jet fan, I'd like to see them win rather than win a MB debate. I'm surprised to see so many people excited at the prospect of more mediocrity, but not surprised to see people continually bring the discussion back to Rex. He's gone, but people can't let go.

 

I don't know much about Marrone.  What I do know is about football.  If he's hired... If we find a QB when he's around, he'll succeed.  If we can't, he'll be on the same list as Rex, Mangini, Herm, and so on.

 

Those who defend Rex do so based on opinions formed after 6 years of watching him and make a list of "excuses" or "reasons", depending on what side you're on, as to why he didn't succeed.  Yet, those who attack a new coach, Marrone or otherwise, do so just in looking at the Bills record, a metric when considered alone, is not in Rex's favor, without producing all of the "excuses" or "reasons" for him.

 

One thing I will say I like about Marrone already is that he apparently took the stance that trading a future 1 for a  WR (especially in a deep WR draft) was a bad move, and one that should only be reserved for a QB.  I'm comfortable with that management style.

[Savage69]

Help me out with something here will you ?  Mangini  made his bones on the defensive side of the ball under Beli  Right ?  Who was the offensive coordinator for mangini when Farve was the QB before Farve's shoulder made it an issue throwing the football ? Why didn't the HC bench Farve when it became evident his injury was hurting the offense ? 

For the same reason Hermie didn't bench Cumar with not 1 but 2 high ankle sprains in 2002.. Stats for both of them Martin for a 1,000 yd season and Farve consecutive game Iron man stat..

[ZachEY]

Help me out with something here will you ?  Mangini  made his bones on the defensive side of the ball under Beli  Right ?  Who was the offensive coordinator for mangini when Farve was the QB before Farve's shoulder made it an issue throwing the football ? Why didn't the HC bench Farve when it became evident his injury was hurting the offense ? 

 

I don't know.  I'm not celebrating or defending Mangini.  He should have benched Favre, except that fact that no coach, at least none without the clout of a Belichick, et al., benches a legend mid-season if they say they can play.  I think the OC was schotty, no?

[jmat321]

I just want a HC who will refuse to celebrate the small stuff (sacks, blocks on kick off returns, wins against mediocre teams, etc). That was my biggest issue with Rex. Stopping a team on 4th and inches and celebrating like he won the super bowl.

[Tinstar]

For the same reason Hermie didn't bench Cumar with not 1 but 2 high ankle sprains in 2002.. Stats for both of them Martin for a 1,000 yd season and Farve consecutive game Iron man stat..

I wasn't a fan of that either

[AFJF]

I don't know much about Marrone.  What I do know is about football.  If he's hired... If we find a QB when he's around, he'll succeed.  If we can't, he'll be on the same list as Rex, Mangini, Herm, and so on.

 

Those who defend Rex do so based on opinions formed after 6 years of watching him and make a list of "excuses" or "reasons", depending on what side you're on, as to why he didn't succeed.  Yet, those who attack a new coach, Marrone or otherwise, do so just in looking at the Bills record, a metric when considered alone, is not in Rex's favor, without producing all of the "excuses" or "reasons" for him.

 

One thing I will say I like about Marrone already is that he apparently took the stance that trading a future 1 for a  WR (especially in a deep WR draft) was a bad move, and one that should only be reserved for a QB.  I'm comfortable with that management style.

 

Pretty much agree with what you're saying.  My concerns about Marrone are as follows:  

 

1) The record is meh, I was hoping for a proven winner which he is not.

 

2) He was knocked out of the playoffs by arguably the worst team in the NFL with a far superior roster.  Falling to a 3-13 team with your season on the line is hard for me to overlook if you're supposed to be a savior.

 

3) Penalties.  As bad as the Jets were, Marrone's Bills were worse.  Not a good sign for somebody who is supposed to be a hard-assed disciplinarian who commands respect from his players.

 

4) The NFL is all about the QB.  If you're an offensive guy, and your first round  QB is riding the pine by early in his second season and doesn't grow enough to eventually get back on the field over a journeyman is not a good sign IMO.

 

5 & 6) I get that this is purely emotional from me, but he sounds too much like Mangini and he hired Hackett's friggin' kid. I've read a few articles that say the punt is Marrone's favorite play which should mean bringing Hackett along is no surprise.

 

I've asked a million times for somebody to tell me why I should be more positive and the answer have been "he's better than the terrible Syracuse coaches before him" and "He developed Ryan Nassib".  

 

Again, pardon me for not being fired up about this.

 

If I'm wrong about Marrone, I'll VERY happily admit it.  If I'm right, I won't take pleasure in the Jets losing like so many did with Rex.

 

 

As far as the WR trade, I said the same thing in a different thread.  Even if you miss on a first round QB one season, don't let  it stop you from taking another one the following season

[AFJF]

Look while I liked Rex he had many flaws that kept him from being a complete HC.. I always get a kick out of the Rex hating crowd  making excuses for Herm,Mangini etc who had good QB play where Rex didn't.. That leads into one of Rex's biggest flaws not trying 100% to get the best QB he could get.. His lack of concern for the offense directly led to his demise.. Now if he had a top 10 QB could he win a bowl?? Sure but he never made getting one his top priority and he should have.. 

 

I think he tried, but he missed.  Sanchez and Geno are terrible.  That's why I said somebody should do with Rex what was done with Dungy.  Bring him in where he has an offense in place.  Tell him offensive staff stays in place.  That's how Peyton finally got a ring in Indy.

[Savage69]

I wasn't a fan of that either

In both cases the need of the one took precedence over the need of the(many) Team.. I sort of stole that from Star Trek.. LOL

[Savage69]

I think he tried, but he missed.  Sanchez and Geno are terrible.  That's why I said somebody should do with Rex what was done with Dungy.  Bring him in where he has an offense in place.  Tell him offensive staff stays in place.  That's how Peyton finally got a ring in Indy.

Not really, I still say if Favre had stayed and he wouldn't have had a choice if Tanny didn't release him we make the Bowl in 2009..

[AFJF]

I don't know.  I'm not celebrating or defending Mangini.  He should have benched Favre, except that fact that no coach, at least none without the clout of a Belichick, et al., benches a legend mid-season if they say they can play.  I think the OC was schotty, no?

 

It was Schotty...and it was terrible to see Mangini shrink under the pressure of Favre's streak.  Put one guy ahead of the rest of the team.

[southparkcpa]

Look while I liked Rex he had many flaws that kept him from being a complete HC.. I always get a kick out of the Rex hating crowd  making excuses for Herm,Mangini etc who had good QB play where Rex didn't.. That leads into one of Rex's biggest flaws not trying 100% to get the best QB he could get.. His lack of concern for the offense directly led to his demise.. Now if he had a top 10 QB could he win a bowl?? Sure but he never made getting one his top priority and he should have..

I have never ever met a fan of Herm Edwards. the man was not much of a coach..... IMO.

[AFJF]

Not really, I still say if Favre had stayed and he wouldn't have had a choice if Tanny didn't release him we make the Bowl in 2009..

 

Really?  It was a while ago but I remember hearing that Rex reached out to Favre and asked him to come back but Brett said he was done.

[southparkcpa]

It was Schotty...and it was terrible to see Mangini shrink under the pressure of Favre's streak.  Put one guy ahead of the rest of the team.

Hmm... Never thought about that. Not certain Clemens would have done any better than a hurt favre.

[FidelioJet]

I don't know much about Marrone.  What I do know is about football.  If he's hired... If we find a QB when he's around, he'll succeed.  If we can't, he'll be on the same list as Rex, Mangini, Herm, and so on.

 

 

There hasn't a truer thing said in this entire thread.

 

Debating all of this is all well and good and fun to do - but from the sense I get about Marrone is he's competent enough to win if he finds a QB.

[AFJF]

Hmm... Never thought about that. Not certain Clemens would have done any better than a hurt favre.

 

True...but we'll never know....and I'm not sure Mangini would've benched him anyway.

[AFJF]

There hasn't a truer thing said in this entire thread.

 

Debating all of this is all well and good and fun to do - but from the sense I get about Marrone is he's competent enough to win if he finds a QB.

 

Yeah, but that's the case with anyone they bring in.  Good QB play wins in this league now more than ever.

[ZachEY]

Pretty much agree with what you're saying.  My concerns about Marrone are as follows:  

 

1) The record is meh, I was hoping for a proven winner which he is not.

 

HC's with prior winning experience usually remain HCs on their current team.  Essentially, if you're looking at overall record as something that's a must you need to go for a college winner or a coordinator.

 

2) He was knocked out of the playoffs by arguably the worst team in the NFL with a far superior roster.  Falling to a 3-13 team with your season on the line is hard for me to overlook if you're supposed to be a savior.

 

Maybe.  But, you can look at it both ways.  Did the roster they had, have any business being in the conversation without him?  I'm not sure.  The point being in such situations, it's hard to tease out the coaches responsibility in a loss.  I didn't watch the game?  Did you?  Did it look like they were out-coached?  Or were they just beaten?

 

3) Penalties.  As bad as the Jets were, Marrone's Bills were worse.  Not a good sign for somebody who is supposed to be a hard-assed disciplinarian who commands respect from his players.

 

This is the first point that concerns me.  Discipline falls largely on the coaching staff.

 

4) The NFL is all about the QB.  If you're an offensive guy, and your first round  QB is riding the pine by early in his second season and doesn't grow enough to eventually get back on the field over a journeyman is not a good sign IMO.

 

Meh.  I'm glad Rex is gone, but I'm not blaming him for the failure of Sanchez/Geno.  I think they're just not great QBs.  Sure, Chip Kelly can make Sanchez look 'a little' better, but not all that much.  I think, maybe, Manuel was just not all that good a QB.  Which could probably be supported by the fact that everyone and their mother thought he was a reach.

 

5 & 6) I get that this is purely emotional from me, but he sounds too much like Mangini and he hired Hackett's friggin' kid. I've read a few articles that say the punt is Marrone's favorite play which should mean bringing Hackett along is no surprise.

 

Hackett's kid isn't Hackett, that doesn't matter all that much to me.  As for sounding like Mangini, the failures there were not because he was too tough, the failures were in his management and strategy.  I think we need to move away from a players coach, because the lack of accountability was a problem.

 

I also hate things like, "a punt is his favorite play."  That's hyperbole.  At the end of the day, the NFL's worst coach knows a ton more than any of us do about the game.  Acting like that's not true is absurd.  It's the same for me, with the argument that Schotty was crap BECAUSE he couldn't teach Sanchez to protect the football.  As if a bunch of us on a message board were able to diagnose the problem but a guy who does football full time couldn't see that Sanchez wasn't protecting the ball or that he didn't try to talk to him about it.

 

I think people got way too caught up in the Coughlin changed Tiki's ball positioning and he stopped fumbling story.  It's rarely that easy when live bullets are flying.

 

I've asked a million times for somebody to tell me why I should be more positive and the answer have been "he's better than the terrible Syracuse coaches before him" and "He developed Ryan Nassib".  

 

Because the coach matters, but the better team usually wins, not the better coach.  Get a guy with a long term vision, holds his players accountable, and makes good in-game decisions and you'll be fine.  Barring the really important stuff happens, which is, the GM finds talent.

 

For me, personally, I was on board with Rex for a while, mostly because of my feeling that Tannenbaum was the problem.  Rex has flaws, but he can coach.  The next guy, in all likelihood, he'll have flaws too.  But if he gets a good roster, we'll win.

 

Again, pardon me for not being fired up about this.

 

If I'm wrong about Marrone, I'll VERY happily admit it.  If I'm right, I won't take pleasure in the Jets losing like so many did with Rex.

 

As I've said, you'll be "wrong" about Marrone based on almost nothing to do with Marrone and mostly to do with the talent he is given.  Coaching can help a less talented team overachieve, or hold a more talented team back, but that's really only a small percentage.  For the most part, the more talented team wins.

 

As far as the WR trade, I said the same thing in a different thread.  Even if you miss on a first round QB one season, don't let  it stop you from taking another one the following season

 

Responses in bold.

[Savage69]

Really?  It was a while ago but I remember hearing that Rex reached out to Favre and asked him to come back but Brett said he was done.

My point is if Tanny said Ok fine retire then, but if Favre wanted to play again it would have had to be the Jets..He didn't need the Jets to release him to retire only if he wanted to play elsewhere.. 

[ZachEY]

It was Schotty...and it was terrible to see Mangini shrink under the pressure of Favre's streak.  Put one guy ahead of the rest of the team.

 

I'm not so sure Mangini had more power on that team than Favre.  It's all speculation.

 

For all we know, Mangini wanted to bench him, Favre said "F-U" and then Woody sided with Favre.

[T0mShane]

Responses in bold.

The Lions were 7-9 last year and are 11-5 this year because of the coach.

[AFJF]

Responses in bold.

 

Gotcha...all fair points and the exact reason my initial response to Marrone was to get opinions from those who watched him since I hadn't.  Of course I went to start looking at what he'd done as a HC.  Not becuase it would make me an expert on him, but to see if I could find something that jumped out at me.  People  told me he won bowl games and for a second that got me excited.  Then I looked and saw it was a crap bowl between a couple of teams that were a game or two over .500.

 

Seeing the loss to Sparano and the Raiders worried the hell out of me.  Whether they belonged there or not, they were there and with that defense, they gotta' be able to be a rookie QB on what turned out to be a 3-13 team.  Buffalo's front-7 is awesome IMO...too good to lose that game.

 

I'm the last person to pretend to know more than these guys do.  Their knowledge of the game is infinitely greater than any of us but hell, if we didn't discuss the basics on here and share our opinions, that would mean no JetNation...not a world I want to live in.

[AFJF]

My point is if Tanny said Ok fine retire then, but if Favre wanted to play again it would have had to be the Jets..He didn't need the Jets to release him to retire only if he wanted to play elsewhere.. 

 

True...I can't recall the timeline in terms of when he was released and came back, but if the Jets could have kept him under contract then they should have.

 

Could also be that Favre said he'd only come back as a Viking, and there was that language in the deal that prevented the Jets from dealing him to the Vikes.  I can't remember if that applied after the first year but it was definitely a stipulation initially.

[Savage69]

The Lions were 7-9 last year and are 11-5 this year because of the coach.

The 49'ers were 12-4 last year and 8-8 this year because of the coach.. Hey this is fun..

[Savage69]

True...I can't recall the timeline in terms of when he was released and came back, but if the Jets could have kept him under contract then they should have.

 

Could also be that Favre said he'd only come back as a Viking, and there was that language in the deal that prevented the Jets from dealing him to the Vikes.  I can't remember if that applied after the first year but it was definitely a stipulation initially.

The bottom line is no playing for Favre if not the Jets.. I would have given him his release on his 50th birthday..

[FidelioJet]

Yeah, but that's the case with anyone they bring in.  Good QB play wins in this league now more than ever.

 

there are levels of good though...Sure, anyone wins with Manning, Brady, Rodgers...

 

But coaching matters when you can win with Eli, Flaco or Big Ben.  The guy you're looking for in an HC is someone that can win with that second tier QB.

 

Is Marrone that guy? 

[ZachEY]

The Lions were 7-9 last year and are 11-5 this year because of the coach.

 

In 2013, the Lions had the 2nd highest SOS.  In 2014, it dropped to 16th.

 

That's not Jim Caldwell's doing.

[T0mShane]

The 49'ers were 12-4 last year and 8-8 this year because of the coach.. Hey this is fun..

That's true.

[AFJF]

I think Marrone is a lock to come to the Jets...just have to get that mid-level QB to find out if Marrone is any good.  If Geno is his QB, then can't really say how good he is since his QB is crap.

[ZachEY]

Gotcha...all fair points and the exact reason my initial response to Marrone was to get opinions from those who watched him since I hadn't.  Of course I went to start looking at what he'd done as a HC.  Not becuase it would make me an expert on him, but to see if I could find something that jumped out at me.  People  told me he won bowl games and for a second that got me excited.  Then I looked and saw it was a crap bowl between a couple of teams that were a game or two over .500.

 

Seeing the loss to Sparano and the Raiders worried the hell out of me.  Whether they belonged there or not, they were there and with that defense, they gotta' be able to be a rookie QB on what turned out to be a 3-13 team.  Buffalo's front-7 is awesome IMO...too good to lose that game.

 

I'm the last person to pretend to know more than these guys do.  Their knowledge of the game is infinitely greater than any of us but hell, if we didn't discuss the basics on here and share our opinions, that would mean no JetNation...not a world I want to live in.

 

Raiders also beat the Chiefs and the 49ers.  It's possible, despite their overall record, that they're a team on the rise.  At least somewhat.  All 3 of their wins came in the last 6 games.  Doesn't make it ok to lose to them, just speaks to the fact that maybe they're not the same team the Jets beat early on.

 

I think there's plenty of things we can weigh in on.  But, for the most part, those are things we can see with our eyes on the field, be that the NFL or in college when talking draft.  99% of this stuff about coaches (and more so, coordinators) is purely nonsensical speculation.  As for coaching, I think we can talk about in-game strategy, adjustments, and clock management.  Beyond that, it's silly guessing.

[AFJF]

Raiders also beat the Chiefs and the 49ers.  It's possible, despite their overall record, that they're a team on the rise.  At least somewhat.  All 3 of their wins came in the last 6 games.  Doesn't make it ok to lose to them, just speaks to the fact that maybe they're not the same team the Jets beat early on.

 

I think there's plenty of things we can weigh in on.  But, for the most part, those are things we can see with our eyes on the field, be that the NFL or in college when talking draft.  99% of this stuff about coaches (and more so, coordinators) is purely nonsensical speculation.  As for coaching, I think we can talk about in-game strategy, adjustments, and clock management.  Beyond that, it's silly guessing.

 

The Raiders did play better late in the season, but it's what was at stake.  With a season on the line, you lose to the Raiders.  I get it, it happens, but would that have happened to Belichick, Carroll, Tomlin or Bill Parcells?  Possibly, but I doubt it.

 

You're right about guessing...and that's why I gave Idzik the benefit of the doubt this past off-season.  So much of what he was doing made no sense but I just kept telling myself "Hey, he must see someting in Jalen Saunders that made him choose him over Martavis Bryant" and "I guess Patterson must be better than most people think".  It is...a lot of it is guessing and hoping we're right, because it's fun to do and we love the game.  I like it better when it's done respectfully and agenda free though.  I came here to legitimately talk about Marrone and it becomes "what about Rex, what did Rex do?  Why was Rex so good?"  None of that matters, Rex is gone and it's about Marrone now.

 

While I fully expect Marrone to get the nod, it would be effing hilarious, if after all of this, he doesn't get the gig.