derp Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 The vertical measures a player's standing vertical. It doesn't measure whether the player is 'good at jumping' in any meaningful sense. So it's not worth quibbling over an inch or two but there's still a relationship between standing vertical and vertical with a start. Saying it doesn't measure leaping ability in any meaningful sense is a stretch. And again, Cooper's not a ridiculous leaper in games either. It'd be one thing if he was an impressive jump ball guy but this just backs up what you see on the field. And it's still a test of lower body explosiveness, which again is not an area where Cooper excels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 So it's not worth quibbling over an inch or two but there's still a relationship between standing vertical and vertical with a start. Saying it doesn't measure leaping ability in any meaningful sense is a stretch. And again, Cooper's not a ridiculous leaper in games either. It'd be one thing if he was an impressive jump ball guy but this just backs up what you see on the field. And it's still a test of lower body explosiveness, which again is not an area where Cooper excels. what would you rather have a Keyshawn Johnson type who can jump high, but cant run a great route and toetap the sideline. The reason why Cooper goes to Oakland, is because he is already a polished wr and he is plenty fast, he ran faster than Odell and same time as Sammie Watkins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 what would you rather have a Keyshawn Johnson type who can jump high, but cant run a great route and toetap the sideline. The reason why Cooper goes to Oakland, is because he is already a polished wr and he is plenty fast, he ran faster than Odell and same time as Sammie Watkins. I never said I didn't want Cooper dude. Mentioned he was an excellent prospect, my first post in this thread was pointing out that his 40 time was great for his size. I said his vertical was bad. Which it was. I know you're in love with Cooper, but relax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patman Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 You do know that Odell Beckhams broadjump was about the same right? Beckham's verticle was 5 inches different, Odell 40 was 4.43 Both have size 10 inch hands which is a good thing. what was Jerry rice's verticle and broadjump? Back in the 80s players did not attend training camps for 60 days preparing to do drills at the combine so what is your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patman Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I was being sarcastic I think Amari Cooper is the best WR in the draft. People can try to hedge and say other receivers have more "upside" they don't. my sarcasm meter must be turned off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Back in the 80s players did not attend training camps for 60 days preparing to do drills at the combine so what is your point. Tom Brady had the worst combine in the history of the nfl. Footage is on the internet I think I could have had a better vert and 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I never said I didn't want Cooper dude. Mentioned he was an excellent prospect, my first post in this thread was pointing out that his 40 time was great for his size. I said his vertical was bad. Which it was. I know you're in love with Cooper, but relax. I am giving you the reason why Oakland will take cooper, you will get White at 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Tom Brady had the worst combine in the history of the nfl. Footage is on the internet I think I could have had a better vert and 40. Comparing verticals and 40 times for pocket passers and WRs is not quite the same thing. I would destroy him in the 40 and jumps, unfortunately he is taller and has a better arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Comparing verticals and 40 times for pocket passers and WRs is not quite the same thing. I would destroy him in the 40 and jumps, unfortunately he is taller and has a better arm. HGH and Ped's do wonders for the body, hopefully the full story comes out before cindy enters HOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 HGH and Ped's do wonders for the body, hopefully the full story comes out before cindy enters HOF Brady wasn't in the Mitchell report he didn't do steroids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Brady wasn't in the Mitchell report he didn't do steroids Brady known to use Barry Bonds Trainer, hopefully truth about him comes out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Brady wasn't in the Mitchell report he didn't do steroids Is this serious or joking? Wasn't the Mitchell report baseball? I think you just mean he didn't use BALCO. Brady may be one of the few guys that doesn't use, but almost all of them do. I have trained with/near quite a few fringe players and they pretty much all used, even the practice squad kicker. If he does use, I don't hold it against him. I know your average American likes to think that if they only took a few cycles they could have played D1, but it takes an incredible amount of work and discipline even when you are on the program. Without it, it is damn near impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Of course it does. Defense rests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Defense rests. Here are your alternatives in a test situation to see if a person 'can jump high' A) A standing jump to see how high a person get go? Nothing. Which provides you with more information? You watch game tape to see if a guy can time his jumps with speed and out fight people for the ball. In a simple test situation you gain more information about how high a person get get into the air with an actual test than otherwise. Let's pick out two players, same basic height and weight. One jumps higher than the other in the basic standing test, with no other info available one would conclude that player will jump higher on the field. If you point was this test is stupid, they should only watch game tape you might have a leg to stand on, go back and read what you wrote. Your usual dumb ass one line comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Here are your alternatives in a test situation to see if a person 'can jump high' A) A standing jump to see how high a person get go? Nothing. Which provides you with more information? You watch game tape to see if a guy can time his jumps with speed and out fight people for the ball. In a simple test situation you gain more information about how high a person get get into the air with an actual test than otherwise. Let's pick out two players, same basic height and weight. One jumps higher than the other in the basic standing test, with no other info available one would conclude that player will jump higher on the field. If you point was this test is stupid, they should only watch game tape you might have a leg to stand on, go back and read what you wrote. Your usual dumb ass one line comment. ummm so this vertical test is valid when you have Tim Tebow throwing the ball 4 ft over your head right? 3 to 4 inches means diddly if defender is not standing directly next to you and you are both not moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detectivekimble Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Okay, it was very bad. Bottom seven out of almost 40 participants. Leaping is actually something receivers have to do, so I don't know why the vertical wouldn't mean a lot. And both are tests of lower body explosiveness, which is appears to be a weakness when watching Cooper and those numbers back it up. It is what it is. Fair enough. I wouldn't be too concerned, though. His speed and quickness was verified at the combine. And like you said above, he's an on the ground receiver. He's a bigger, faster version of Victor Cruz. Cruz doesn't go up and get it, but he's still plenty effective. Hopefully the Raiders take White and Cooper is sitting there at 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Fair enough. I wouldn't be too concerned, though. His speed and quickness was verified at the combine. And like you said above, he's an on the ground receiver. He's a bigger, faster version of Victor Cruz. Cruz doesn't go up and get it, but he's still plenty effective. Hopefully the Raiders take White and Cooper is sitting there at 6. My concern is that on the ground receivers typically don't fare that well with bad quarterbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Here are your alternatives in a test situation to see if a person 'can jump high' A) A standing jump to see how high a person get go? Nothing. Which provides you with more information? You watch game tape to see if a guy can time his jumps with speed and out fight people for the ball. In a simple test situation you gain more information about how high a person get get into the air with an actual test than otherwise. Let's pick out two players, same basic height and weight. One jumps higher than the other in the basic standing test, with no other info available one would conclude that player will jump higher on the field. If you point was this test is stupid, they should only watch game tape you might have a leg to stand on, go back and read what you wrote. Your usual dumb ass one line comment. I tried for like three seconds to imagine the last time I saw them stop a football game to have a contest to see who can jump the highest. Then I remembered that this is why we have the everything you say is silly and wrong rule. To save me these precious seconds. Jump balls are about timing and coordination and body control. At speed. This is testable, particularly if you've got more time than brains. Chart the jump balls, see how predictive combine vertical is. Overall Madden rating probably does a better job. The explosion measures track force. They're for the positions where guys are running into each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadwayJoe12 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I disagree. Straight line speed and game speed are very different. I very rarely saw Hill get separation from anyone in the nfl. Hill was not a good receiver, but the guy continually burnt people with his speed. The problems were that our QB wasn't the best deep-ball thrower or recognizing open receivers and Hill couldn't stay healthy or make plays consistently enough to garner enough trust. Still, the dude was lightning fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detectivekimble Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 My concern is that on the ground receivers typically don't fare that well with bad quarterbacks. Eli isn't very accurate and Cruz does fine. Besides, Cooper is a pretty big WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Eli isn't very accurate and Cruz does fine. Besides, Cooper is a pretty big WR. Eli takes some chances but he's still a pretty accurate quarterback in terms of ball placement. Every once in awhile one sails but he puts the ball on guys. And he's substantially better/more accurate than any of the Jets' QB's. Cruz is listed at 1 inch and 7 pounds shy of Cooper, there's not a substantial difference there (though Cooper could certainly fill out more since he's still young). I don't think it's a dealbreaker, but it is concerning. I think a big, fast, jump ball type would have a better chance of breaking through on this offense. And that's not a knock on Cooper, it's a knock on everyone here. A team like the Colts (who have no shot at him) would be a tremendous fit for Cooper and I imagine there's a good chance he'd be the top WR on their board. That's also why I agree with the Alabama fan about the Raiders being a good fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetBlue Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 This all appears to be moot as every mock now seems to have us drafting Marriota. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Hill was not a good receiver, but the guy continually burnt people with his speed. The problems were that our QB wasn't the best deep-ball thrower or recognizing open receivers and Hill couldn't stay healthy or make plays consistently enough to garner enough trust. Still, the dude was lightning fast. He was only fast running a streak downfield. His speed was average running anything else on route tree. To me that's not fast that's a frigging track star not a football player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 This all appears to be moot as every mock now seems to have us drafting Marriota. Because everyone thinks the jets are a dumb franchise that will pass on Cooper or Scherff for Mariota. They're probably right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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