Mariota is a bust

[Jetsmanjb]

And you know this how??

 

watching the team play the past two years

[Sperm Edwards]

When you need a franchise QB and there's a potential one there to take - you take him. There is no trading down...

The Ravens did.

Following the advice outlined above would have led to the Jets drafting Geno over Richardson. It led to us drafting Sanchez. It led to others drafting Manuel Ponder Locker Weeden Manziel Russell Gabbert...

You can take a QB every year until finding one as a strategy and I'd mostly agree with he concept. BUT you only do it with such a high pick of you're convinced he's IT. GMs don't abandon a pick that high so fast.

He could be awesome, but he just seems to have so many question marks for such a high pick. And when you take a QB that high you're most definitely NOT taking one the next year when of he shows nothing so far. He'd have to be in rehab with Manziel for the team to draft another even somewhat highly the next season.

A #6 overall pick - if he lasts that long - is going to get more than one season. Particularly one who is thought to be so unready coming out of school. So then he's the only serious QB pick for the next 2 drafts not just 1.

[FidelioJet]

You can take a QB every year until finding one as a strategy and I'd mostly agree with he concept. BUT you only do it with such a high pick of you're convinced he's IT. GMs don't abandon a pick that high so fast.

 

 

I think that's a very high threshold...I'm not saying throw caution to the wind - I am by no means suggesting to simply take a QB no matter what - but if there's  guy there that you believe has potential you take him.

 

Ultimately the difference between your opinion and mine is the risk level.  

 

Our GM will do an indepth dive into the MM and he'll come out with an solid assessment.  If he believes there's a good chance this guy can be a franchise (not necessarily convinced he will be) he should take him - or even trade up for him.  He's going in the two spot one way or another.

[LWC611]

Brady ran a pro offense in MI. Not even close to a good comparison.

He has never called a play in a huddle. He has never taken a snap from under center. He has never gone past his primary or dump off receiver. How bad is the QB situation in the NFL that this kid is being thought of as anything more that a 2nd day project?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you... I would not make him the 6th pick. I would make him my 6th pick...

[Sperm Edwards]

I think that's a very high threshold...I'm not saying throw caution to the wind - I am by no means suggesting to simply take a QB no matter what - but if there's  guy there that you believe has potential you take him.

 

Ultimately the difference between your opinion and mine is the risk level.  

 

Our GM will do an indepth dive into the MM and he'll come out with an solid assessment.  If he believes there's a good chance this guy can be a franchise (not necessarily convinced he will be) he should take him - or even trade up for him.  He's going in the two spot one way or another.

 

Sort of. The risk level is based not on the player we didn't get - or not just on the player we didn't get - but the knowledge that a top 6 pick is never given just one year before drafting another one in the first 3 rounds. With how raw he (allegedly) is in running a pro offense / reading a pro defense, and with an actual viable alternative on the roster, we'd be drafting him this year but his rookie year (his "first" year) will effectively be 2016. In other words, the next prospect we're drafting inside the first 3-4 rounds (never mind the first 2 rounds) is going to be 2017 and that's if everything goes wrong. Unless he Manziels it and somehow ends up in rehab, but that risk seems around zero with him.

[#27TheDominator]

The Ravens did. 

 

Then they started him as a rookie!

 

Interesting thing is that they Ravens traded down with the Jags (Derrick Harvey) and then traded back up with Houston.  They got the Jags first, 2 thirds and a fourth.  Then they traded the Jags first (Duane Brown), 2nd third and a 6th for Houston's pick.  They netted a third and fourth, and gave up a sixth.  If you try and track the picks, you will realize that Ozzie trades like Tannenbaum on acid.  The third rounder they kept from the Jags was theirs in the first place (traded with a fifth for Marcus Stroud).  It shows that even though Ozzie liked Flacco, he wasn't drafting him above what Ozzie felt his draft slot was worth.

[FidelioJet]

Sort of. The risk level is based not on the player we didn't get - or not just on the player we didn't get - but the knowledge that a top 6 pick is never given just one year before drafting another one in the first 3 rounds. With how raw he (allegedly) is in running a pro offense / reading a pro defense, and with an actual viable alternative on the roster, we'd be drafting him this year but his rookie year (his "first" year) will effectively be 2016. In other words, the next prospect we're drafting inside the first 3-4 rounds (never mind the first 2 rounds) is going to be 2017 and that's if everything goes wrong. Unless he Manziels it and somehow ends up in rehab, but that risk seems around zero with him.

I do understand what you're saying - there's tremendous risk with taking him at 6 (a QB busting is a much bigger problem than a DL busting) ..You can play this out however you want but without a QB you're not winning a championship.  '16, '17, 2020 - those are all throw away years unless you have a franchise QB.

 

Ultimately it depends on the GM's assessment - you're clearly not high on him.  I honestly don't know enough about him - but I do hear many experts (for whatever it's worth) saying he has all the tools.

 

The only point I've been trying to make is you can NOT be scared to take him because Geno failed or because Sanchez failed or because he won the Heisman and you definitely can't wait for a "lock" to come around.  If someone's there that has a chance to be special you HAVE to take him.

 

Yes the Risk is very high - another wasted 3 years but the reward is tremendously higher - 15 years of perpetually competitive football.

[Sperm Edwards]

I do understand what you're saying - there's tremendous risk with taking him at 6 (a QB busting is a much bigger problem than a DL busting) ..You can play this out however you want but without a QB you're not winning a championship.  '16, '17, 2020 - those are all throw away years unless you have a franchise QB.

 

Ultimately it depends on the GM's assessment - you're clearly not high on him.  I honestly don't know enough about him - but I do hear many experts (for whatever it's worth) saying he has all the tools.

 

The only point I've been trying to make is you can NOT be scared to take him because Geno failed or because Sanchez failed or because he won the Heisman and you definitely can't wait for a "lock" to come around.  If someone's there that has a chance to be special you HAVE to take him.

 

Yes the Risk is very high - another wasted 3 years but the reward is tremendously higher - 15 years of perpetually competitive football.

 

Then you're reading me very wrongly. I'm not anything on him, pro or con. I didn't watch him play and didn't watch his workouts. I neither like nor dislike him as a prospect.

 

I just think there are a lot of questions floating around for a guy being talked about at overall picks #2-6 in the country. Lots of first rounders have questions (and even in the absence of such questions many still bust). But those with such questions usually they're taken a little later even if they're still in the first round, though exceptions are made when a prospect has some freakish measurables, be it speed or arm strengh or (or a combination of both) or whatever.

 

The thing with the risk and reward as it's being presented is that it's draft Mariota or we have to just go with a Geno or a Sanchez type for 3 more years. This is the part I disagree with. Seattle would have no superbowl ring (or even any appearances) if they traded up for Tannehill instead of waiting for Wilson 2+ rounds later. Baltimore liked Flacco but they didn't #8 in the country like him.

 

Just saying I disagree with this premise that our only chance of building a winner is if we land Mariota this year and hope he develops into being all that for a decade and a half. There are other prospects, whether this year or next. And even if he ends up not being a bust, that doesn't therefore equate to 15 years of perpetually competitive football either.

 

It has nothing to do with being "scared" of taking him because of some other bust(s) we did take. It's that the team - one that is pretty stacked all around right now - is locked into him when he's taken that highly, and what I'm hearing is whoever gets him isn't even going to get to properly try him out at large until 2016. What should have been the positive about the Geno pick, in contrast, was that we didn't take him so high. We ended up doubling down on him anyway, because we're the Jets and that's how we roll, but it wasn't necessary. Had we taken him at #9 or #13 instead, there would have been little question: Geno gets 2 years minimum, especially when he's raw coming in so his rookie season is waved off as that much more of a mulligan. So would it be with Mariota. He's our guy - our QB prospect - for 2 years minimum even if he kind of sucks and really never develops as we'd hoped.  You're not just writing off those seasons, both present and future, but you're writing off any/all other decent QB prospects we could have taken for 2-3 drafts. If we could get him around where we got Smith, Clemens, or even Pennington, then sure you take that shot. The thing is, though, that's not going to be an option.

If we happen to draft a bust at QB then it happens, but there's a reason value is placed on different prospects. The only reason Mariota seems to be valued this highly, from what I've read, is due to the position he plays, how important the QB is, and how weak the QB class is; and not because he's such a great QB prospect in his own right.

[FidelioJet]

 

Then you're reading me very wrongly. I'm not anything on him, pro or con. I didn't watch him play and didn't watch his workouts. I neither like nor dislike him as a prospect.

 

I just think there are a lot of questions floating around for a guy being talked about at overall picks #2-6 in the country. Lots of first rounders have questions (and even in the absence of such questions many still bust). But those with such questions usually they're taken a little later even if they're still in the first round, though exceptions are made when a prospect has some freakish measurables, be it speed or arm strengh or (or a combination of both) or whatever.

 

The thing with the risk and reward as it's being presented is that it's draft Mariota or we have to just go with a Geno or a Sanchez type for 3 more years. This is the part I disagree with. Seattle would have no superbowl ring (or even any appearances) if they traded up for Tannehill instead of waiting for Wilson 2+ rounds later. Baltimore liked Flacco but they didn't #8 in the country like him.

 

 

The whole premise of your point is that you don't have faith he's going to be good enough.  Whether it be your opinion or basing it on the opinion of others.  You don't think the Jets should draft Mariotta because you simply don't think his potential is good enough to take at 6.

 

For every example you can point to about a team not taking a QB early and they found success you can point to one where they did and it worked.   MM is different than Flacco as much as Wilson is different from Flacco - you have to look at each player and each situation on their own.  

 

Of course you don't need MM to win a Super Bowl, but you do need a quality QB and there's a better chance of him hitting on MM rather than someone else you would get in the 2nd or 3rd round.

 

It's all pointless anyway because he's going 2 and the Jets aren't trading up to get him....

[Sperm Edwards]

The whole premise of your point is that you don't have faith he's going to be good enough.  Whether it be your opinion or basing it on the opinion of others.  You don't think the Jets should draft Mariotta because you simply don't think his potential is good enough to take at 6.

 

For every example you can point to about a team not taking a QB early and they found success you can point to one where they did and it worked.   MM is different than Flacco as much as Wilson is different from Flacco - you have to look at each player and each situation on their own.  

 

Of course you don't need MM to win a Super Bowl, but you do need a quality QB and there's a better chance of him hitting on MM rather than someone else you would get in the 2nd or 3rd round.

 

It's all pointless anyway because he's going 2 and the Jets aren't trading up to get him....

I think he has a lot of questions for a guy to get drafted that high. It's the number of questions of a guy who gets drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round, who you say you consider less of a chance of hitting (and I'd agree with). But it's easier to sooner walk away from a 2nd or 3rd rounder, or even a later 1st rounder, than the 6th overall pick.

He doesn't (generally) take snaps from center, drop back and stand in the pocket, get a good feel for the pocket where he can sense pressure before he's hit but also doesn't hear footsteps that aren't there, while surveying the field and going through his progressions, or typically having to hit on a lot of his throws in spite of tough coverage.

Again, this is what I'm reading not an opinion I have of him. Not that he can't do it, but that he hasn't been asked to do it so maybe he can and maybe he can't. It's more similar to Flacco than you're giving credit for. The reason Flacco wasn't a top 5 pick with Ryan is because he similarly wasn't asked to do the things Ryan was asked to do (in Flacco's case, he wasn't asked to play against decent competition and a lot of bad NFL QBs could look like men amongst boys at Deleware). The specifics of WHICH things are unknown about each QB is/was incidental, so long as the unknown things are considered significant. He either can or he can't and you won't know until you actually ask him to do it. Very similar, in this regard.

It's a laundry list of things he has not been asked to do on a regular basis. Typically a list this long is overlooked when a prospect has freakish size/speed/agility/arm or a combination of all these things. But in the absence of these freakish measurables such a prospect is taken lower in the round or after round 1 outright.

[Matt39]

Whats your plan for the draft, Tom?

Eat ketchup packets.

[Jet Life]

A bust who hasnt taken a snap yet? Interesting take

[ChuckkieB]

watching the team play the past two years

 

This is silly.  So you're saying the YOU can see the level of support the team has for it's QB by simply watching games, which of course, means that the team visibly plays harder for one QB over another. Unless you're in the locker room, at practice every single day, or a player literally told you so, there's no way you or anyone else has a clue as to who the players are supportive of. 

[Jetsmanjb]

This is silly. So you're saying the YOU can see the level of support the team has for it's QB by simply watching games, which of course, means that the team visibly plays harder for one QB over another. Unless you're in the locker room, at practice every single day, or a player literally told you so, there's no way you or anyone else has a clue as to who the players are supportive of.

You can get a feel for a team by watching games... Sunday's are the only days that count anyways

[Smashmouth]

He's just a thrower at this point, not a passer. He just kinda slingshots the ball where he think it needs to be, which is ok in the Oregon offense, but it'll give him 25 picks per year as a pro. Watch how many times his receivers have to stop and adjust on their routes to bring his passes in.

sorry Tom but this is nonsense. If you don't like the guy or the pick that's fine but don't make sh*t up to support your stance. Mariota takes care of the football and Brick Tamland said it best, surround a smart QB who takes care of the football with solid athletes at the skill positions and play solid defense and you have a good chance at winning in this league. Mariota would be a great fit here IMHO and with a guy like Chan Gailey at the helm he could ease him into the pro style offense with no problem. There would be no reason to force feed the kid if we play solid defense and protect the football on offense. I've seen Mariota make ALL the throws so this nonsense about his arm is pure bullsh*t he is easily the best QB in this draft with the most brains and Ill take the chance on Brains before an incredible arm like Cutlers any day of the week.

[Smashmouth]

A bust who hasnt taken a snap yet? Interesting take

More like a stupid take

[T0mShane]

sorry Tom but this is nonsense. If you don't like the guy or the pick that's fine but don't make sh*t up to support your stance.

So much humor here.

[Smashmouth]

 

Then you're reading me very wrongly. I'm not anything on him, pro or con. I didn't watch him play and didn't watch his workouts. I neither like nor dislike him as a prospect.

 

I just think there are a lot of questions floating around for a guy being talked about at overall picks #2-6 in the country. Lots of first rounders have questions (and even in the absence of such questions many still bust). But those with such questions usually they're taken a little later even if they're still in the first round, though exceptions are made when a prospect has some freakish measurables, be it speed or arm strengh or (or a combination of both) or whatever.

 

The thing with the risk and reward as it's being presented is that it's draft Mariota or we have to just go with a Geno or a Sanchez type for 3 more years. This is the part I disagree with. Seattle would have no superbowl ring (or even any appearances) if they traded up for Tannehill instead of waiting for Wilson 2+ rounds later. Baltimore liked Flacco but they didn't #8 in the country like him.

 

Just saying I disagree with this premise that our only chance of building a winner is if we land Mariota this year and hope he develops into being all that for a decade and a half. There are other prospects, whether this year or next. And even if he ends up not being a bust, that doesn't therefore equate to 15 years of perpetually competitive football either.

 

It has nothing to do with being "scared" of taking him because of some other bust(s) we did take. It's that the team - one that is pretty stacked all around right now - is locked into him when he's taken that highly, and what I'm hearing is whoever gets him isn't even going to get to properly try him out at large until 2016. What should have been the positive about the Geno pick, in contrast, was that we didn't take him so high. We ended up doubling down on him anyway, because we're the Jets and that's how we roll, but it wasn't necessary. Had we taken him at #9 or #13 instead, there would have been little question: Geno gets 2 years minimum, especially when he's raw coming in so his rookie season is waved off as that much more of a mulligan. So would it be with Mariota. He's our guy - our QB prospect - for 2 years minimum even if he kind of sucks and really never develops as we'd hoped.  You're not just writing off those seasons, both present and future, but you're writing off any/all other decent QB prospects we could have taken for 2-3 drafts. If we could get him around where we got Smith, Clemens, or even Pennington, then sure you take that shot. The thing is, though, that's not going to be an option.

If we happen to draft a bust at QB then it happens, but there's a reason value is placed on different prospects. The only reason Mariota seems to be valued this highly, from what I've read, is due to the position he plays, how important the QB is, and how weak the QB class is; and not because he's such a great QB prospect in his own right.

Sperm watch a few of his games don't listen to the bullsh*t about what he can or can not do. I have watched him get flushed from the pocket while keeping his eyes down field at all times I have seen him go to numerous other options rather than just the first like some would have you believe. I have seen him do a lot of things people claim he can't do/ The best option is to watch him play then look at a lot of the crap that's being spewed and make an educated decision hopefully just like our FO is doing.

 

There is only one valid argument and that's that the kid has not played in the so called pro style offense ....So with that being known everyone suggests there's no way this kid could possibly drop back from center and go through his progressions . The only valid point here being he didn't play in a pro style offense. Tell me what college QB has EVER played vs a pro defense ? That's right none have. There is no reason why this kid can't learn to read pro defenses he already has proven he can run a complicated offense in college it nay not be pro style but its complicated in its own right and he's shown to have the brain power to do it. I'm not sure what people want in a QB but one who has accounted for so many TD's and so few turnovers seems to me would be a great fit here since most of our problems have come from QB's who do nothing but turn the ball over at an alarming rate.

[Smashmouth]

So much humor here.

Tom Ive watched him play and not just the good highlights. I've seen him do things many say he can't do ..so yeah I have issue with that and its not humor

[T0mShane]

Whats your plan for the draft, Tom?

 

 

Rd 1.6

1. Amari Cooper

2. Vic Beasley

3. Fowler

4. White

5. Dupree

6. La'el Collins

 

Rd 2.37

1. Todd Gurley

2. Melvin Gordon

3. DGB

4. DJ Humphries

5. Bernardrick McKinney

6. Jake Fisher

[T0mShane]

Tom Ive watched him play and not just the good highlights. I've seen him do things many say he can't do ..so yeah I have issue with that and its not humor

 

 

What did I "make up"?

[The Crusher]

What did I "make up"?

Back story to about 17 inflatable woman?

[T0mShane]

Back story to about 17 inflatable woman?

 

I suffer fear of drowning.

[Jet9]

In love that people choose to ignore that the Oregon receivers are wide open on nearly every MM TD throw. Watch the tape fellas. The BEST NFL guys don't get that wide open.

[Smashmouth]

I do not like Mariota because he doesn't seem to throw a football with any sort of accuracy anywhere at any time. 

 

 

He's just a thrower at this point, not a passer. He just kinda slingshots the ball where he think it needs to be, which is ok in the Oregon offense, but it'll give him 25 picks per year as a pro. Watch how many times his receivers have to stop and adjust on their routes to bring his passes in.

 

 

What did I "make up"?

Hes not Just a thrower and he does not have a sling shot delivery like say a Micheal Vick or a Vince Young. he has a compact over the top delivery with damn near perfect mechanics. So yeah Im not sure where your getting that stuff from. If your getting it from some screen passes hes thrown where you change your arm angle that's one thing but you cant make those kinds of statements as if they span his entire game. Every QB has receivers adjust to balls it happens all the time your just not used to it because your a Jets fan rooting for a team who has not had a decent WR in here for years (yeah Tom that's Humor )

 

Mariota has the brains and the work ethic those little Items ALWAYS seem to get over looked and they just so happen to be the most Imprtant part of being a QB Just ask Jamarcus Russel and Jeff George

 

While a guy like Sanchez is still prone to the Mistakes and INT's and Fumbles how did his Completion percentage go from the mid 50's on the Jets to the mid 60's on the Eagles ? Amazing what a little talent around a QB can do

[Smashmouth]

In love that people choose to ignore that the Oregon receivers are wide open on nearly every MM TD throw. Watch the tape fellas. The BEST NFL guys don't get that wide open.

more crap here..... You know who also had WR's wide open In college ? Damn near every QB entering the draft. I've seen MM make some damn nice throws into some tight coverage

[T0mShane]

Hes not Just a thrower and he does not have a sling shot delivery like say a Micheal Vick or a Vince Young. he has a compact over the top delivery with damn near perfect mechanics. So yeah Im not sure where your getting that stuff from. If your getting it from some screen passes hes thrown where you change your arm angle that's one thing but you cant make those kinds of statements as if they span his entire game. Every QB has receivers adjust to balls it happens all the time your just not used to it because your a Jets fan rooting for a team who has not had a decent WR in here for years (yeah Tom that's Humor )

Mariota has the brains and the work ethic those little Items ALWAYS seem to get over looked and they just so happen to be the most Imprtant part of being a QB Just ask Jamarcus Russel and Jeff George

Better prospect: Mariota or Sanchez?

[T0mShane]

more crap here..... You know who also had WR's wide open In college ? Damn near every QB entering the draft. I've seen MM make some damn nice throws into some tight coverage

No you haven't.

[Smashmouth]

Better prospect: Mariota or Sanchez?

easily Mariota

[Smashmouth]

No you haven't.

yep I have

[T0mShane]

yep I have

Show. Don't tell.

http://draftbreakdown.com/players/marcus-mariota/

[Smashmouth]

while I hate Highlight films watch every throw and you will see him go to his second and third reads constantly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdQcqop2R-w

[Jet Fan RI]

Better prospect: Mariota or Sanchez?

 

That's easy. Sanchez. He didn't win the Heisman.  At least he had a snowball's chance. Unfortunately, he melted anyway.

[FidelioJet]

while I hate Highlight films watch every throw and you will see him go to his second and third reads constantly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdQcqop2R-w

Tape doesn't lie.

 

agreed that it's a highlight film but those weren't always wide open receivers and no question he very smooth with his progressions...

 

btw...why do all these highlight films have to have that loud hip-hop music in the background?  So off putting...

[Smashmouth]

Show. Don't tell.

http://draftbreakdown.com/players/marcus-mariota/

watched all of those thanks