jgb Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I think you started with suggesting it was a smart move. I'm countering with it hasn't been done before (certainly not recently) and there's no evidence this would be a smart move. This is my supported statement. If you disagree, then I asked you to back up why you think a guard would be a smart move to draft at #6, and you are still dodging. We both know if you were able to show any evidence that this is smart you would have rubbed my nose in it by now, instead of endeavoring in the semantics of "you first" retorts, even though I did answer first. The fact is no one - or at least no one in recent memory - has built a winner by using a #6 (or #6-ish) pick to take a guard prospect. If you can show me otherwise, I'll stand corrected. Wouldn't be the first time. Yeah, I don't watch a lot of college football so can't independent verify whether he is a stud or not. But if he is a stud and has potential to be 10-year anchor on the line, then my position is he should not be passed over simply because guards aren't historically drafted that highly. Draft is an art, not a science, we all know that. Depends on how it plays out draft day. But if I was GM, I would not simply refuse to consider guards at 6. And I don't think Kiper is an idiot for suggesting it could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Scherff isn't an option at six here or in any other scenario that doesn't involve the consensus just being totally wrong on at least one of the quarterbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant wait Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I think you started with suggesting it was a smart move. I'm countering with it hasn't been done before (certainly not recently) and there's no evidence this would be a smart move. This is my supported statement. If you disagree, then I asked you to back up why you think a guard would be a smart move to draft at #6, and you are still dodging. We both know if you were able to show any evidence that this is smart you would have rubbed my nose in it by now, instead of endeavoring in the semantics of "you first" retorts, even though I did answer first. The fact is no one - or at least no one in recent memory - has built a winner by using a #6 (or #6-ish) pick to take a guard prospect. If you can show me otherwise, I'll stand corrected. Wouldn't be the first time. Especially when there is highly ranked playmakers on the board. The year cooper went 7 was a pretty weak draft talent wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I know nothing about the guy. Just that absolute statements in an inabsolute art such as talent identification, evaluation and the Draft are unsupportable. If you stand by the premise that a team should "never" take a guard in the Top 10, the burden is on you to support that premise, not on others to do a research project to debunk your unsupported statement. The NFL as a whole hasn't taken a guard as high as the #6 pick in the draft since 1975. That's a pretty strong consensus against. If I really felt like researching it, I'm sure those rare years where guards went in the top ten in the last four decades were probably pretty weak classes overall, too. It's generally not done because it's generally understood not to be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Ya I have no issue with trade down to get Scherff.. at #6 I would think we take pass rusher or WR or QB.. if we take OL at #6 I assume Jets see something they feel is HOF material and 'think' another team also is leaning that way.. They could be building him up so a tradedown is inviting,,,all games now.. but a great OL is never never bad , as long as u dont leave draft picks on table to get him.. To call anyone a 'idiot' usually involves a mirror and a VERY low self esteem of oneself Lol. Does that include people who call Geno Smith such things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Lol. Does that include people who call Geno Smith such things? You're pretty good at the Gotcha Game yourself. No wonder you saw my attempt coming from a mile away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Why is it a foregone conclusion that Scherff is a guard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The NFL as a whole hasn't taken a guard as high as the #6 pick in the draft since 1975. That's a pretty strong consensus against. If I really felt like researching it, I'm sure those rare years where guards went in the top ten in the last four decades were probably pretty weak classes overall, too. It's generally not done because it's generally understood not to be a good idea. I saw a few articles where they are mentioning he can play Guard and Tackle..maybe thats why he is rated higher by some teams,, I dont know.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 The NFL as a whole hasn't taken a guard as high as the #6 pick in the draft since 1975. That's a pretty strong consensus against. If I really felt like researching it, I'm sure those rare years where guards went in the top ten in the last four decades were probably pretty weak classes overall, too. It's generally not done because it's generally understood not to be a good idea. I guess we will all find out what new GM's head games are.. I suggest y'all pay attention to what he has been saying/bringing in (i.e. do we draft a player we never brought in etc) cause it's all calculated and will help in future deciphering his 'MO' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I saw a few articles where they are mentioning he can play Guard and Tackle..maybe thats why he is rated higher by some teams,, I dont know.. He's an expensive proposition at #6 overall even if he's the left tackle of the future, and I'm not sure he has that potential. D'Brick is probably locked in there for another two years. And right tackles are valued the same -or even lower- than guards. Just doesn't make a lot of sense to take that position when there will almost certainly be a choice of pass rushers, WRs, or maybe even a QB there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Why is it a foregone conclusion that Scherff is a guard? Word. Maccagnan is from the same scouting department that delivered Duane Brown "early" and he turned out alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetBlue Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Yeah, I don't watch a lot of college football so can't independent verify whether he is a stud or not. But if he is a stud and has potential to be 10-year anchor on the line, then my position is he should not be passed over simply because guards aren't historically drafted that highly. Draft is an art, not a science, we all know that. Depends on how it plays out draft day. But if I was GM, I would not simply refuse to consider guards at 6. And I don't think Kiper is an idiot for suggesting it could happen. I think he also can project to playing OT and eventually replace Giacomati or whatever his name is. Some think he can also play LT in the pros because he won the Outland Trophy at that position, but I have my doubts when it comes to pass protection (especially against those speedy edge rushers). They guy is a beast, though and is probably better than any Guard we have right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Bleh. You're searching for a gotcha moment, but you're just not getting there. BAP calculations include the value of the position the players play, and I've said this many times. A QB with a 90 grade will be taken ahead of a guard with a 100 rating ten out of ten times. QB, pass rusher, wide receiver all all premium positions in the NFL, and get paid a premium. The Jets will potentially be looking at top prospects at each of those positions when they're on the clock at #6, taking a guard there would be dumb. It would be neither the BAP, nor the player who fills the most glaring need - making your whole argument ridiculous. The top guards in free agency this year (and a couple very good guards were available) got $7-8M/year, the top WRs were franchised at $12.8M. The top pass rusher was franchised at $14.8M. The franchise tag number for a QB is over $18M. WRs, pass rushers, and QBs are valued higher than guards. That's all part of the equation. Your dad, meanwhile, is citing one article as a demonstration of a shift in positional values between guards and tackles in the NFL, and I showed him clearly that the league continues to draft tackles higher and much more often than guards. Again, in the last ten years, 13 OTs were taken top ten, 9 in the top five, two number one overall. In the same ten years, three guards went top ten, and you'd have to go back to 1975 to find one taken in the top five. Tackle continues to be considered a premium position, guard is not. Not sure what last few years you're talking about. If there's any truth to that opinion piece, the trend I'd think you'd see is tackles just not being drafted as high any more, either, rather than guards being taken higher. As the emphasis becomes more about the QB getting rid of the ball in a hurry, every position on the OL will see itself being downgraded, much like RB in recent years. More than that, 2 of those (top 10 pick) guards were taken in the same draft that was very weak up top. Tavon Austin wouldn't have been a top 10 pick most other drafts, and IMO neither would either guard. If one can point to those two guards taken at 7 and 10, one shouldn't so easily omit/ignore that 3 tackles were taken ahead of either one at 1-2-4 (and another at #11). The hindsight pick at guard that year (so far) was neither of the then so-called future first ballot HOFers. Long was taken way down at #20, and was considered a "reach" pick by many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Yeah, I don't watch a lot of college football so can't independent verify whether he is a stud or not. But if he is a stud and has potential to be 10-year anchor on the line, then my position is he should not be passed over simply because guards aren't historically drafted that highly. Draft is an art, not a science, we all know that. Depends on how it plays out draft day. But if I was GM, I would not simply refuse to consider guards at 6. And I don't think Kiper is an idiot for suggesting it could happen. I don't agree. I think even the best guard prospects also need a weak draft up top to even be considered in the top 10. If Scherff goes that high, it's because someone's projecting him to tackle not guard. Especially when there is highly ranked playmakers on the board. The year cooper went 7 was a pretty weak draft talent wise This. And even that year 3 tackles were taken ahead of Cooper. That freaking midget punt returner Tavon Austin was taken 8th in the country that draft was so light up top. The next WR taken was down at #27. The first TE off the board was also outside the top 20. The top 2 QB prospects were EJ Manuel and Geno Smith. Another bust was taken as the first pass rusher off the board at #3. That's the perfect storm void of top (playmaker) talent required for a guard to get taken 7th/10th. It was such an atypical draft in the top 10-ish that I couldn't see using that as justification for anything other than trading down and stockpiling picks. But even that was tough to do that year because no one wanted to give "chart" value to trade up either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Lol. Does that include people who call Geno Smith such things? Lmao As idiots go Geno and Mel are real close. As a talent eval I would put more stock in what Geno sez. Mel is a fraud. Just because he can recite 40 times from a player 10 yrs ago, does not qualify him to do anything. He is a media creation, much like Oprah. The last time Melly spoke to a fan, cellphones didnt exist lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 just got my fresh copy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I know nothing about the guy. Just that absolute statements in an inabsolute art such as talent identification, evaluation and the Draft are unsupportable. If you stand by the premise that a team should "never" take a guard in the Top 10, the burden is on you to support that premise, not on others to do a research project to debunk your unsupported statement. Would you take a kicker with the first overall pick? Or is your answer to that, "It depends on who's available."? I don't know anything about him either, except that his best position - the position that gets scouts excited - is guard. That position is too easy to fill with plenty good enough without the need to burn a #6 overall pick. IMO you'd have to know he was going to turn into an career-stud guard to justify the pick even in hindsight, and one is not going to be blessed with such a benefit on draft day. Plus you'd have to also know, in hindsight, that none of the other players considered at/around #6 would have been even better selections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Lmao As idiots go Geno and Mel are real close. As a talent eval I would put more stock in what Geno sez. Mel is a fraud. Just because he can recite 40 times from a player 10 yrs ago, does not qualify him to do anything. He is a media creation, much like Oprah. The last time Melly spoke to a fan, cellphones didnt exist lol False. He regularly talks into a fan to hear his robot voice. Also please note the site rules: no profanity and no talk of politics, religion, or badmouthing Oprah. Stedman is fair game, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 False. He regularly talks into a fan to hear his robot voice. Also please note the site rules: no profanity and no talk of politics, religion, or badmouthing Oprah. Stedman is fair game, though. Harpo too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 He's an expensive proposition at #6 overall even if he's the left tackle of the future, and I'm not sure he has that potential. D'Brick is probably locked in there for another two years. And right tackles are valued the same -or even lower- than guards. Just doesn't make a lot of sense to take that position when there will almost certainly be a choice of pass rushers, WRs, or maybe even a QB there. ya like I said, maybe a tradedown is in Mac's mind,,who knows, we dont , thats for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 again calling folks idiots usually shows extreme low self esteem and a mirror is needed (unless in obvious jest) Sad actually that folks need to demean folks to build up their own 'Hi, I'm Joe, 1st time, long time' fanboy egos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I don't agree. I think even the best guard prospects also need a weak draft up top to even be considered in the top 10. If Scherff goes that high, it's because someone's projecting him to tackle not guard. This. And even that year 3 tackles were taken ahead of Cooper. That freaking midget punt returner Tavon Austin was taken 8th in the country that draft was so light up top. The next WR taken was down at #27. The first TE off the board was also outside the top 20. The top 2 QB prospects were EJ Manuel and Geno Smith. Another bust was taken as the first pass rusher off the board at #3. That's the perfect storm void of top (playmaker) talent required for a guard to get taken 7th/10th. It was such an atypical draft in the top 10-ish that I couldn't see using that as justification for anything other than trading down and stockpiling picks. But even that was tough to do that year because no one wanted to give "chart" value to trade up either. If a game changing kicker came along that could hit 60 yarders with ease yes I would consider it. Plus no team has ever finished with a losing record the year after taking a kicker in top 10 picks. Look it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 If a game changing kicker came along that could hit 60 yarders with ease yes I would consider it. Plus no team has ever finished with a losing record the year after taking a kicker in top 10 picks. Look it up LOL, math is fun... all crapshoot and NO ONE on this site has any clue other than speculation.. fandom101...thats a real fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 If a game changing kicker came along that could hit 60 yarders with ease yes I would consider it. Plus no team has ever finished with a losing record the year after taking a kicker in top 10 picks. Look it up Name all the superbowl winners, superbowl losers, championship game winners, and championship game losers in the last quarter century who drafted a guard with a top 10 pick (borderline top 5 pick at that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Harpo too? Because I can read backwards, yes Harpo is off-limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Name all the superbowl winners, superbowl losers, championship game winners, and championship game losers in the last quarter century who drafted a guard with a top 10 pick (borderline top 5 pick at that). who cares, he may be a combo G/T (mac may see him as future LT, but G for a few years, who the hell knows, you dont and neither do I) and there is always something new,, but lets face it, Jets will probably take a WR/QB or tradedown for the OL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 LOL, math is fun... all crapshoot and NO ONE on this site has any clue other than speculation.. fandom101...thats a real fact "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics" Mark Twain, quoting Benjamin Disraeli Name all the superbowl winners, superbowl losers, championship game winners, and championship game losers in the last quarter century who drafted a guard with a top 10 pick (borderline top 5 pick at that). I gave you positive rep under the assumption you are joking lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I gave you positive rep under the assumption you are joking lol I'm considering abusing my privileges and make that your new sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I'm considering abusing my privileges and make that your new sig. Where is Boss Turd when needed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I'm considering abusing my privileges and make that your new sig. lol go for it. speaking of statistics here is an interesting one: 9 of last 16 superbowls were won by a non-first round QB. QB should not be taken in first round since according to statistics you are more likely to win it all getting a QB outside of the first! (yes, I am joking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadetree Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 If the draft was in radio city music hall, yeah, I'm pretty sure we'd draft a guard @ 6. Mayhem would ensue and wed have another video reaction from the crowd to go with our long, storied history of draft-pick lowlights.. But things are different this year..competent GM, draft is in Chicago, there's a light at the end of our tunnel, and things are feeling groovy in Jets-land. Pass rush or Cooper, jets fans smile, kiss their wives, and raise a glass to Mike " mad dog" Maccagnan!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 If the draft was in radio city music hall, yeah, I'm pretty sure we'd draft a guard @ 6. Mayhem would ensue and wed have another video reaction from the crowd to go with our long, storied history of draft-pick lowlights.. But things are different this year..competent GM, draft is in Chicago, there's a light at the end of our tunnel, and things are feeling groovy in Jets-land. Pass rush or Cooper, jets fans smile, kiss their wives, and raise a glass to Mike " mad dog" Maccagnan!! I am thinking pass rush or WR also, UNLESS Mac cant resist a great bevy of picks (or combo picks/player) in a tradedown,,then who knows who he drafts, depends on where we land in 1st round.. Could still be a OL if we are drop some spots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadetree Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 I am thinking pass rush or WR also, UNLESS Mac cant resist a great bevy of picks (or combo picks/player) in a tradedown,,then who knows who he drafts, depends on where we land in 1st round.. Could still be a OL if we are drop some spots... Coopers growing on me..his route running us so smooth and doesn't seem to slowdown at all making cuts. This team has had a desperate need for a playmaker at OLB for ages..I hope they pick one. Trade for rivers would be sweet if mariota fell too ...but that's simply a pipe dream. God doesn't like me that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogglez Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 and will have longer career (Off Lineman) than probably most in draft Fantastic. You don't draft a guard at 6. Only way I'm happy with Scherff is a trade down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 1. TB - J.Winston 2. Ten - M.Mariota 3. Jax - L.Williams 4. Oak - A.Cooper 5. Was - D.Fowler 6.JETS - BRANDON SCHERFF Analysis: If Mariota is here I think that's the direction the Jets go. And while I can certainly see this team moving up to No. 2, as I noted above, we know the price is going to be steep, and it might simply be too high a cost. I know this is a possible fit for a pass-rusher as well, but the Scherff pick also makes a lot of sense if you look at the improvements they've made on defense and the improvements they still need to make on offense. The Jets are going to have a good defense next season regardless of whom they take here. The new threats in the passing game are nice, but given the QB options on the roster, this team needs to be able to run the ball. Scherff is a possible starter immediately at right tackle, and is a clear upgrade at either guard spot. It might not be exciting for the fans, but for immediate impact this could be the best pick to make. This choice is picking up steam. I doubt Mac would do this, especially with AJ Cann being available further down the board. If this is the case then the Jets could trade down with the Browns, get their 2 first rounders and pick up Andrus Peat and AJ Cann in the first round and call it a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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