#DeflateGate... WTH will this thing be resolved?!%&#

[indygirl4jets]

yes, bettors take that into consideration. Home teams are known to get more favorable treatment from refs and good teams get better treatment than poor teams. This is in every sport, more pronounced in Basketball than football, but it does exist and most bettors assign a 3 point edge to the home team.

 

Of course the pats knew it would confuse the ravens or at least they hoped it would. What do you think the first defensive player that saw a double reverse say. You think he was confused becasue it was something that was never done before?  I am happy that "my" coach knows the rules better than the refs.  They used it against the colts  and just the threat of it made the Seahawks prepare for it. And believe me BB could give a rat's ass if it would cause a controversy, he wants to win- controversy be dammed.

 

As far as the punishment goes, I think the punishment would be fair if they were caught to tamper with the balls.  If the pats measured the balls at 12.5 like they said they did when they turned them in  and the ref can proove that they did check them ( which I believe they did) and that when Kensil checked them there was an official in the room to verify the measurements and the resultant physics don't allow for the deviation.  theyshould be punished.

 

Now if Kensil checked the balls himself and gave them to the refs to fill, then all bets are off. I also don;t believe that the one ball that the colts had in thier hands for 1/2 should be used as evidence.

 

Patriot fans are upset with the league and mainly Kensil, as they blame him for the leaks that happened during the first week.

 

Now when I run the numbers in the formula I get that the balls should lose almost 1lb going from a 72 degree locker room to a 52 degree field.  Now the wet conditions can account for another .5 PSI (Headstrong labs) The khan academy gets 2lbs   https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/gases-and-kinetic-molecular-theory/ideal-gas-laws/v/deflategate-ideal-gas-law

 

Now all the talking heads say how come the colts balls were not deflated. Well they most certainly did deflate.  but they did not deflate enough to go beyond the 12.5 min, Why. Because 24 hours before the game they were in a jet in a unheated baggage compartment, then for the next 18 hours they were in a box truck along with the rest of the uniforms, pads, gear and  game day supplies. They stood on this truck until at least 3:20 in the afternoon When the colts teams busses and gear arrived  at Gillette. Now NFL reqs require the colts to bring the game balls that they will use to the refs 2 hours and 15 min prior to the start of the game. (6:20 PM) that means they had to get the balls off the truck and to the refs in about 1/2 hour. By the time the balls were delivered the refs, the temp of those balls were already at the outside game temp. So there would be no deflation just due to temp variation. Now the ball would deflate as much as 1/2lb due to the wet condtions, but al long as the colts balls were inflated to 13PSI they would still be in spec 2 hours later at halftime. 

You have way too much time on your hands.

[patman]

You have way too much time on your hands.

I'm retired and the boat is not in the water, and please does math hurt your head?

[patman]

I am not aware that it was known that the balls were under-inflated at the start of the first half. The refs had measured them before the game started, then measured them again at the half. I think that was the plan all along. If the Pats somehow deflated the balls during the first half, measuring them again before the start of the first half would not have shown evidence of deflation.

 

Although the refs can say anything, I think statements by them would be accepted at face value, much as the statement of law enforcement is accepted in a trial. Disbelieving law enforcement requires evidence they are lying. I think the league would treat statements by officials the same way.

 

And since this not a court of law, Goodell does not did definitive proof to apply a penalty. The NFL is closer to a monarchy than a society with strict rules of evidence for punishment. That is especially true of the Pats, who were already punished for cheating in the past.

 

But the purpose of the rule is too have both teams play under the same conditions. "Everyone" here thinks the ball boy did the deed in the bathroom and that was the only time he had unsupervised access to the balls. If a complaint was raised and like Godell and Blandino both said it was not a league sting operation and Grisgson complained about deflated balls, why did anyone not check 5min  before game time? That is the point.  You don't check 1/2 way thru the game and take the chance  and what fans here say had Indy at an disadvantage?  Indy fans should be irate- the league let 1/2 the game be played with the other team having an advantage.  You bring dice to a game and one side thinks there rigged, the dice will be checked then not after playing with them for an hour. 

 

Now if Blandino and Godell lied and it was a sting, why was the measurements not written down and compared to later readings? Why did Kensil not write them down? And again, why were they not checked before the start of the game? 

 

You agree that balls will undergo a change in psi due to game conditions that those balls were played under.  You just disagree with the amount of change and effectiveness of water as a conductor - and you think all 11 of the balls were 2lbs under.  

 

 

[Jet Fan RI]

 

 

 

I don't think there is any way to know what the motivations of the league were in testing the balls at halftime, so I think we will be unable to make any progress on that point until the investigation report is released.

 

Now the second point, yes that is what I think. It is the whole reason that hard-nosed, unbiased, testing is required. Again, we need the results of the testing in hand, along with a description of the methods used, before we can judge whether the testing was indeed unbiased, and whether the results can be used for exoneration or condemnation.

 

What motivated my further comments before any test reports came out was a post that said without written results of the before-game testing in hand, nothing definitive about the state of the balls is known. I disagree with that assessment, since testimonials of the officials can be used as a reliable basis, in my judgment. Same thing goes for the manner in which the balls of both teams were stored prior to the initial testing.  As you know, it would make a huge difference if the Colts' balls were stored in the storage compartment underneath their bus, and thus exposed to the outside temperature, or were kept inside the bus at something closer to room temperature, perhaps so the balls could be preped by the team while travelling. Information like that is critical, and likely can only be acquired by personal testimony,

[patman]

I don't think there is any way to know what the motivations of the league were in testing the balls at halftime, so I think we will be unable to make any progress on that point until the investigation report is released.

 

Now the second point, yes that is what I think. It is the whole reason that hard-nosed, unbiased, testing is required. Again, we need the results of the testing in hand, along with a description of the methods used, before we can judge whether the testing was indeed unbiased, and whether the results can be used for exoneration or condemnation.

 

What motivated my further comments before any test reports came out was a post that said without written results of the before-game testing in hand, nothing definitive about the state of the balls is known. I disagree with that assessment, since testimonials of the officials can be used as a reliable basis, in my judgment. Same thing goes for the manner in which the balls of both teams were stored prior to the initial testing.  As you know, it would make a huge difference if the Colts' balls were stored in the storage compartment underneath their bus, and thus exposed to the outside temperature, or were kept inside the bus at something closer to room temperature, perhaps so the balls could be preped by the team while travelling. Information like that is critical, and likely can only be acquired by personal testimony,

Well without written results a general statement can be made that all the balls were checked and that they were at least 12.5 and not over 13.5 and maybe a statement like they were all on the low, or high or varied within that range. Anything more definitive than that would be questionable without something being written. 

 

As far as the manner for the patriot footballs were stored the pats are on record as saying the balls are stored in the locker room and prepared at 12.5 PSI in the locker room. BB said this in his press conference.  What the pats have not released is the type of gage and the type of pump used to inflate the balls. 

 

It did not occur to me that the colts could have taken the balls out of the truck and brought them to the bus for the 1/2 hour trip to from providence to Foxboro. It just did not seem like a reasonable thing to do.  These guys are all wearing suits and such, why two dirty ball bags on the bus, and if they did I would thing that it would be the practice balls and not the game balls. 

 

What motivations the league had is most certainly critical and the reason I think is one that is holding up the results. Kensil and Vincent allowed the game to  be played for almost a half before checking the balls?   If they thought the integrity of the game was being compromised, why were the balls not checked before the snap? How come Godell and Blandilno not know about Grigson's complaint?  He said he told the league first after the November game  and again 3 days before this game. How Come Pagamo said that he never heard of the complaint about deflated balls. The GM knows but never tells the coach?  To me this was an attempt by the colts to embarrass the pats, Grigson went to Purdue for engineering, he damm well knows that those balls were going to be under 12.5.

[Beerfish]

The NFL and Goodell are in a tight spot thus the delay and Roger has no one to blame but himself.

 

I think it is as stated, at this point in time they have no killer proof any actions were outwardly solicited by the Pats hierarchy even though all logic and a lot of circumstantial evidence suggests it.  Without putting the pats ball attendant under oath they can't make him tell all.

 

This is where it gets tricky for Goodell, #1 his overly close association with the Pats and their owner and the feeling the Pats get preferential treatment.  #2 this is in fact a second offense against that team which makes a slap on the wrist a tough thing if wrong doing is shown.  #3 He totally painted himself into a corner with the New Orleans bounty gate by stating that ignorance was no excuse.  He's in a very tight spot right now.

[Jet Fan RI]

Well without written results a general statement can be made that all the balls were checked and that they were at least 12.5 and not over 13.5 and maybe a statement like they were all on the low, or high or varied within that range. Anything more definitive than that would be questionable without something being written. 

 

As far as the manner for the patriot footballs were stored the pats are on record as saying the balls are stored in the locker room and prepared at 12.5 PSI in the locker room. BB said this in his press conference.  What the pats have not released is the type of gage and the type of pump used to inflate the balls. 

 

It did not occur to me that the colts could have taken the balls out of the truck and brought them to the bus for the 1/2 hour trip to from providence to Foxboro. It just did not seem like a reasonable thing to do.  These guys are all wearing suits and such, why two dirty ball bags on the bus, and if they did I would thing that it would be the practice balls and not the game balls. 

 

What motivations the league had is most certainly critical and the reason I think is one that is holding up the results. Kensil and Vincent allowed the game to  be played for almost a half before checking the balls?   If they thought the integrity of the game was being compromised, why were the balls not checked before the snap? How come Godell and Blandilno not know about Grigson's complaint?  He said he told the league first after the November game  and again 3 days before this game. How Come Pagamo said that he never heard of the complaint about deflated balls. The GM knows but never tells the coach?  To me this was an attempt by the colts to embarrass the pats, Grigson went to Purdue for engineering, he damm well knows that those balls were going to be under 12.5.

 

My point is that we don't know how and when the Colts' ball prep was done. I think it is reasonable that the balls may have been preped during the bus trip. It is also reasonable that the Colts may have brought those bags into their locker room after the trip to await sending to the officials for testing, and thus may have been exposed to room temperature for a long time, potentially several hours. Do we know the exact time of arrival of the Colts' bus at the stadium?

 

We just don't know any of this,and this kind of thing must be established by personal testimony. 

[Jet Fan RI]

The NFL and Goodell are in a tight spot thus the delay and Roger has no one to blame but himself.

 

I think it is as stated, at this point in time they have no killer proof any actions were outwardly solicited by the Pats hierarchy even though all logic and a lot of circumstantial evidence suggests it.  Without putting the pats ball attendant under oath they can't make him tell all.

 

This is where it gets tricky for Goodell, #1 his overly close association with the Pats and their owner and the feeling the Pats get preferential treatment.  #2 this is in fact a second offense against that team which makes a slap on the wrist a tough thing if wrong doing is shown.  #3 He totally painted himself into a corner with the New Orleans bounty gate by stating that ignorance was no excuse.  He's in a very tight spot right now.

 

I think they are in a tight spot only if there is definitive evidence of cheating. If there is definitive evidence that exonerates them, why not release it immediately?

[ChuckkieB]

This whole "investigation" is a joke! The NFL isn't investigating the second gunman on the grassy knoll for crying out loud, they're investigating whether a few friggin' balls were deflated or not!!! This should be an open and shut case, one way or the other and should take literally one day to interview the few parties involved and another day to decide on the punishment, if any.  This is a classic stall tactic by the NFL to make sure the issue is off the general public's radar, and the longer they wait, the better. I am baffled that other NFL teams are not screaming from the rooftops about this clear preferential treatment being given to the Patriots! Enough is enough already!

[Beerfish]

I think they are in a tight spot only if there is definitive evidence of cheating. If there is definitive evidence that exonerates them, why not release it immediately?

Perception and logic and Okams Razor.  11 our of 12 pats balls deflated, non of Indy's.  If he says, 'oh we found no smoking gun thus no penalty' people will still blast the hell out of him.

[PFSIKH]

I think they are in a tight spot only if there is definitive evidence of cheating. If there is definitive evidence that exonerates them, why not release it immediately?

 

That is what I have been saying.

 

While I tend to agree with your second part, Kraft and Belichick's open challenge  a week later gives me pause.

 

I do not see them doing this unless one of two things.  They know the league doe snot have anything or they have a smoking gun.  I would think they would STFU and let it play out, but there open challenge make sme wonder.

[#27TheDominator]

Burn the tapes!  We never saw the video!  They sent the video?  We saw a video, but not that video!

[Jet Fan RI]

Perception and logic and Okams Razor.  11 our of 12 pats balls deflated, non of Indy's.  If he says, 'oh we found no smoking gun thus no penalty' people will still blast the hell out of him.

 

Unfortunately, depending on the storage history and the insulating capabilities of the football, both sets of facts can possibly happen without cheating. That is why physical testing and personal testimony are needed.

[Beerfish]

Unfortunately, depending on the storage history and the insulating capabilities of the football, both sets of facts can possibly happen without cheating. That is why physical testing and personal testimony are needed.

Here is the problem, you cannot explain away how 11 of 12 pats balls were all underinflated and none of the indy ones were.  And in any case the balls they used were illegal, plain and simple.  If they inflated them to just over the legal amount and then atmospheric conditions changed them, tough luck.

[Jet Fan RI]

Here is the problem, you cannot explain away how 11 of 12 pats balls were all underinflated and none of the indy ones were.  And in any case the balls they used were illegal, plain and simple.  If they inflated them to just over the legal amount and then atmospheric conditions changed them, tough luck.

 

Actually, all of that can be explained without cheating being required. If the Colts' balls were stored in outside conditions long enough before the initial testing, they would not have experienced much of a temperature drop, and hence little to no natural deflation. If the Pats' balls were stored inside long enough and if the balls have poor enough thermal insulating properties, the deflation may have been caused by a combination of temperature drop and evaporation. The 12th ball outlier may have been in the bottom of the ball bag and not have experienced the same changes as the rest of the balls.

 

This is why physical testing of the balls' actual behavior and personal testimonies as to how both sets of balls were treated/stored prior to testing are needed. 

[Beerfish]

Yeah I know the physics say it can be explained, the balls are illegal and the physics also suggested that unless balls were inflated to be just over the legal limit to pass inspections these other factors are not enough to account for them not passing at half time.

[Jet Fan RI]

Yeah I know the physics say it can be explained, the balls are illegal and the physics also suggested that unless balls were inflated to be just over the legal limit to pass inspections these other factors are not enough to account for them not passing at half time.

 

Did not hear the results of any testing or calculations that required over inflation. And fortunately, there's no need to rely on what physics "suggests" based on incomplete information. If the testing shows the observed deflation is physically impossible without manual deflation, that will prove the case. The point is, without actual testing and gathering testimonials, lots of empty speculation is possible. And is of little value.

[papz187]

Well with the draft a week away I highly doubt the NFL fines them a 2015 pick. Same probably goes for both the Jets and Pats tampering charges.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[Jet Fan RI]

Well with the draft a week away I highly doubt the NFL fines them a 2015 pick. Same probably goes for both the Jets and Pats tampering charges.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

 

The good news is that if the Pats do worse this season than last season, any picks they lose would be of higher value than those from the 2015 draft. Similarly, if the Jets do better this season, their draft picks will be of lesser value. Both are likely to happen. So in the end delaying punishment to next year may actually help the Jets.

[papz187]

The good news is that if the Pats do worse this season than last season, any picks they lose would be of higher value than those from the 2015 draft. Similarly, if the Jets do better this season, their draft picks will be of lesser value. Both are likely to happen. So in the end delaying punishment to next year may actually help the Jets.

Good point, didn't think of that. It's almost a lock we won't have a higher pick than 6 next draft, and the Pats can't have a worse pick than 32 either, so it's for the better they hold of punishment til next year's draft (if picks are docked).

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[JustInFudge]

Havent read the entire thread, but has anyone covered that the Cheatriots are the biggest frauds in the history of sports?

 

Just checking.

[AFCEastFan]

The good news is that if the Pats do worse this season than last season, any picks they lose would be of higher value than those from the 2015 draft. Similarly, if the Jets do better this season, their draft picks will be of lesser value. Both are likely to happen. So in the end delaying punishment to next year may actually help the Jets.

 

Not sure about that reasoning.  Just look at any draft day trade involving future draft picks.  A first round pick today is worth more than a first round pick tomorrow. 

[Jet Fan RI]

Not sure about that reasoning.  Just look at any draft day trade involving future draft picks.  A first round pick today is worth more than a first round pick tomorrow. 

 

Not sure I am following your objection. All I am saying is that it is likely the Pats won't win the SB this year, so their 1st-round pick next year will be higher than 32. And the Jets are likely to finish with a better record this year than 4-12, so in 2016 they will likely pick lower than #6. You disagree with that?

[Larz]

Havent read the entire thread, but has anyone covered that the Cheatriots are the biggest frauds in the history of sports?

 

Just checking.

 

the most galling part is the morons who collect a paycheck by promoting the NFL brand don't have the guts to bring it up 

 

ever

[AFCEastFan]

Not sure I am following your objection. All I am saying is that it is likely the Pats won't win the SB this year, so their 1st-round pick next year will be higher than 32. And the Jets are likely to finish with a better record this year than 4-12, so in 2016 they will likely pick lower than #6. You disagree with that?

 

I do not disagree with this at all.  But even if the Patriots have a higher pick in 2016 than they do this year (which I agree is very likely), I do not think it necessarily follows that that pick will be of a higher value than the 2015 pick. 

[PFSIKH]

Here is the problem, you cannot explain away how 11 of 12 pats balls were all underinflated and none of the indy ones were.  And in any case the balls they used were illegal, plain and simple.  If they inflated them to just over the legal amount and then atmospheric conditions changed them, tough luck.

 

Just playing devil's advocate, but if the atmospherics proove that deflation is possible, than that is not the Patriots problem, that is league's problem. 

 

If the rule is to turn the balls in at least 12.5 and the Patriots did this, and according to the refs they checked *wink wink*, than the Patriots met the rule as stated. 

 

If conditions can affect the ball, then the NFL needs a rule stating when temprature is X, then the balls need to be at Y instead of 12.5 due to weather conditions. 

[PatsFanTX]

Just playing devil's advocate, but if the atmospherics proove that deflation is possible, than that is not the Patriots problem, that is league's problem. 

 

If the rule is to turn the balls in at least 12.5 and the Patriots did this, and according to the refs they checked *wink wink*, than the Patriots met the rule as stated. 

 

If conditions can affect the ball, then the NFL needs a rule stating when temprature is X, then the balls need to be at Y instead of 12.5 due to weather conditions.

Please refrain from using common sense.

It is ruining an enjoyable thread.

[Beerfish]

Just playing devil's advocate, but if the atmospherics proove that deflation is possible, than that is not the Patriots problem, that is league's problem. 

 

If the rule is to turn the balls in at least 12.5 and the Patriots did this, and according to the refs they checked *wink wink*, than the Patriots met the rule as stated. 

 

If conditions can affect the ball, then the NFL needs a rule stating when temprature is X, then the balls need to be at Y instead of 12.5 due to weather conditions. 

Were the footballs all properly inflated at the 2nd check?  Did the refs and the league use those footballs?  Were the footballs legal or illegal when they were to be used? 

[AFJF]

Wasn't all that well publicized but the ball manufacturer commented on the weather condition theory and debunked it.  Said all footballs are tested in all conditions prior to getting stamp of approval for use.  Only way significant pressure loss would happen is if a ball was defective.  If initial reports are true, 11 of 12 footballs would have to be defective.

 

Either way, the league is playing this exactly how I thought they would...ignore it 'til it goes away.

[Jet Fan RI]

I do not disagree with this at all.  But even if the Patriots have a higher pick in 2016 than they do this year (which I agree is very likely), I do not think it necessarily follows that that pick will be of a higher value than the 2015 pick. 

 

Well, of course. The draft is always a crapshoot. For example, only about 20% of non-Heisman QB's drafted in the first round have become franchise QB's since 1970, so that means 80% of the picks are busts. But still, generally speaking, the higher the draft pick the better the chances. Even though Montana went in the third round and Brady in the 6th, I would rather have a 1st-round pick in any given year. And within that round, the higher the pick, the better.

[Jet Fan RI]

Just playing devil's advocate, but if the atmospherics proove that deflation is possible, than that is not the Patriots problem, that is league's problem. 

 

If the rule is to turn the balls in at least 12.5 and the Patriots did this, and according to the refs they checked *wink wink*, than the Patriots met the rule as stated. 

 

If conditions can affect the ball, then the NFL needs a rule stating when temprature is X, then the balls need to be at Y instead of 12.5 due to weather conditions. 

 

Much easier would be to require the balls to be stored outside, or at least in an unheated space at the outside temperature. Of course, the manufacturer claims their balls won't deflate under falling temperatures, which is possible if the balls have good enough thermal properties. Proper testing should determine if the manufacturer's claim is valid.

[patman]

Wasn't all that well publicized but the ball manufacturer commented on the weather condition theory and debunked it.  Said all footballs are tested in all conditions prior to getting stamp of approval for use.  Only way significant pressure loss would happen is if a ball was defective.  If initial reports are true, 11 of 12 footballs would have to be defective.

 

Either way, the league is playing this exactly how I thought they would...ignore it 'til it goes away.

No, a sales rep for wilson commented that the balls will not lose air, On that I think all fans agree.   The balls do no deflate due to the valve leaking just that the air pressure is reduced. If you don't mean to be a wise guy, but you understand how items grow in size when heated, the opposite is true the spacing between the molecules gets smaller as air is cooled so the expansion pressure is reduced.  The balls do not lose air, for which the Wilson sales rep is correct, it is the air pressure.  If you weigh a cold ball and a warm ball they will both weigh the same, although the warm ball will have more have a higher PSI reading.

[AFJF]

No, a sales rep for wilson commented that the balls will not lose air, On that I think all fans agree.   The balls do no deflate due to the valve leaking just that the air pressure is reduced. If you don't mean to be a wise guy, but you understand how items grow in size when heated, the opposite is true the spacing between the molecules gets smaller as air is cooled so the expansion pressure is reduced.  The balls do not lose air, for which the Wilson sales rep is correct, it is the air pressure.  If you weigh a cold ball and a warm ball they will both weigh the same, although the warm ball will have more have a higher PSI reading.

 

Yep...lots of theories floating around on this one and  honestly don't think it made much difference one way or the other.  The Pats are what they are, champions with some question marks.  Some of them are complete BS (people blasting them for legal formations that confused an opponent), some are very real (spygate cheating) and some we will never know (deflategate).  May as well just move on from it, the NFL has.

[patman]

Much easier would be to require the balls to be stored outside, or at least in an unheated space at the outside temperature. Of course, the manufacturer claims their balls won't deflate under falling temperatures, which is possible if the balls have good enough thermal properties. Proper testing should determine if the manufacturer's claim is valid.

Jet fan, is was just a sales rep and when he stated that the balls will not deflate, it was in the context that the ball will not lose air. Not that a Wet leather ball will prevent a change in PSI due eto weather conditions.

 

This is the conversation. He took exception to the statement that BB made that rubbing the balls briskly will incerease the PSI, He did not refer to the rest of BB's argument regarding the change in atmosphericconditions

 

representative for Wilson, the NFL's official football manufacturer, says New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick's explanation for why his team's footballs were under-inflated doesn't hold water. 

At a press conference Saturday, Belichick posited that rubbing the footballs to break them in could temporarily raise the air pressure level by one pound per square inch. 

"That's b.s.," Wilson rep Jim Jenkins told Boston.com at a Super Bowl fan convention. "That's b.s., man."

[Dcat]

Yep...lots of theories floating around on this one and  honestly don't think it made much difference one way or the other.  The Pats are what they are, champions with some question marks.  Some of them are complete BS (people blasting them for legal formations that confused an opponent), some are very real (spygate cheating) and some we will never know (deflategate).  May as well just move on from it, the NFL has.

+1

 

The only thing we all know for sure is that the Patriots, from its hypocritical owner to its amoral headcoach straight down to its serial killer ex-TE, is as morally corrupt a sports franchise as has ever existed since the Chicago Blacksox.

 

 /end thread