GAME OF THRONES (*SPOILERS ALERT*)

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

 

Snow hides behind walls at Winterfell from the ice dragon.  Drogon destroy entire buildings with one shot of fire from his mouth.

It's beyond lazy at this point.

 

Dragon fire destroys the Great Wall. Yea. It’s slop.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I guess I'm in the minority but everything has made sense to me just fine. I think the majority of the audience turned into what happened to Star Wars and comic book movie people; they define what the thing is supposed to be along the way, and if anything deviates from that definition along the way, the viewer winds up defaulting to watching everything with scrutiny from then on. The ability to enjoy it completely goes out the window and in 2019 it seems like the primary reason for watching comes to be so you can complain about it on the Internet after the fact.

That and what seems to be the ongoing theme is that most GoT viewers, which is pretty much everyone at this point, came to view themselves as a Shakespearean audience, forgetting that George RR Martin is not Shakespeare. He's not even Tolkien. If you want King Lear, read King Lear; but Martin's writing is sh*t too. We're essentially talking about Tom Clancy books as if they're comparable to Roberto Bolano. This show was always about dragons burning sh*t and quite frankly I'm glad it is.

All of this can be true, and it pretty much is, but in this case, the audience has invested eight years of their lives into this franchise and I think it’s ok to apply a high standard toward the payoff. I’m an overly critical douchebag so I always have to consciously dial back my expectations of these things, and I think some of the critiques have been too harsh. In this instance, however, I think we can all be grateful for what they’ve tried to do with this project and still wish elements of it were handled with more care down the stretch. We’ve watched some of these characters grow up, and now we’re watching them die. It’s ok to have a visceral response to the means by which they’re leaving the stage. 

[MichaelScott]

28 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Almost universally, though much of the commentary has been about Danaerys becoming crazy. Here’s a pretty common take today: 

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-reviews/game-of-thrones-review-bells-sepinwall-834528/

Oddly enough, her becoming crazy is one of the few aspects I like. Maybe not exactly how they rushed it, but just the premise. 

This season is so rushed and poorly written because of it. Was the decision on 6 episodes just a financial one? I would have rather waited another year for 10 episodes that did this story justice. 

[Bleedin Green]

19 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I guess I'm in the minority but everything has made sense to me just fine. I think the majority of the audience turned into what happened to Star Wars and comic book movie people; they define what the thing is supposed to be along the way, and if anything deviates from that definition along the way, the viewer winds up defaulting to watching everything with scrutiny from then on. The ability to enjoy it completely goes out the window and in 2019 it seems like the primary reason for watching comes to be so you can complain about it on the Internet after the fact.

That and what seems to be the ongoing theme is that most GoT viewers, which is pretty much everyone at this point, came to view themselves as a Shakespearean audience, forgetting that George RR Martin is not Shakespeare. He's not even Tolkien. If you want King Lear, read King Lear; but Martin's writing is sh*t too. We're essentially talking about Tom Clancy books as if they're comparable to Roberto Bolano. This show was always about dragons burning sh*t and quite frankly I'm glad it is.

I think that's a fair point in the big picture, and I'll admit I haven't hated it as much as I realize it's coming across here, mostly because of how easy it becomes to see, and join in pointing to, the stupidity many other people are talking about.  However, I think the one major difference-maker that is that Martin and the show writers have been looking to tell very different types of stories.

The feel of the show has changed since they ran out of Martin's stuff to piggyback off of, and it's no longer what a lot of people got hooked by to begin with.  Martin's deal was always that everything was about the people, and while there was tons of crazy sh*t going on around them, they were never really the primary focus, and mostly used as plot devices.  The show has definitely gone further in the opposite direction with each season, pushing through a particular character arc in 5 minutes so they can spend the next 40 on another battle, which is a big part of what plays into the dissatisfaction with many decisions made.

[Irish Jet]

I think the show has actually been getting panned quite consistently since Episode 3 - In the mainstream, in the nerd-verse and with people I know who were nothing but fanboys before. 

The writing has been pretty awful since Season 5 but the spectacles were able to cover it up. Now that it enters the finish and all is supposed to tie together it just doesn't. Everything is so clearly forced from A to B - Which is understandable given GRRM's inability to get from A to B is what's holding up the books. 

All it takes is to go back and watch any early season scene and you'd notice it's basically a different show. 

[Irish Jet]

5 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

Oddly enough, her becoming crazy is one of the few aspects I like. Maybe not exactly how they rushed it, but just the premise. 

This season is so rushed and poorly written because of it. Was the decision on 6 episodes just a financial one? I would have rather waited another year for 10 episodes that did this story justice. 

Yup. Smug, bad-ass, one line dropping Dany had become pretty unbearable. We've hardly seen a hint of insecurity from her since season one. Then bang. Nuts.

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Yup. Smug, bad-ass, one line dropping Dany had become pretty unbearable. We've hardly seen a hint of insecurity from her since season one. Then bang. Nuts.

how about the theory she burned the city in an attempt to trap Jon and eliminate all claim to her throne 

it's not unthinkable  and certainly not all that mad even (by GoT standards)

[RutgersJetFan]

9 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

All of this can be true, and it pretty much is, but in this case, the audience has invested eight years of their lives into this franchise and I think it’s ok to apply a high standard toward the payoff. I’m an overly critical douchebag so I always have to consciously dial back my expectations of these things, and I think some of the critiques have been too harsh. In this instance, however, I think we can all be grateful for what they’ve tried to do with this project and still wish elements of it were handled with more care down the stretch. We’ve watched some of these characters grow up, and now we’re watching them die. It’s ok to have a visceral response to the means by which they’re leaving the stage. 

Copy and paste this into any reaction to every popular show that ever ended except maybe Breaking Bad. David Chase got it right in hindsight. There is no satisfying people, best to black everything out and let armchair quarterbacks figure it out for themselves, essentially saying: “If you think you can do a better job, here’s your chance.”

 

[Irish Jet]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

how about the theory she burned the city in an attempt to trap Jon and eliminate all claim to her throne 

it's not unthinkable  and certainly not all that mad even (by GoT standards)

Why not just kill Jon?

[bitonti]

10 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

 This season is so rushed and poorly written because of it. Was the decision on 6 episodes just a financial one? I would have rather waited another year for 10 episodes that did this story justice. 

This is a great question 

in the big picture the more HBO spends on GoT the more they get back... it's 15 mil an episode but it's a multi-billion dollar franchise.

so the official story is HBO and GRRM wanted more, D&D and the cast wanted less. 

I still suspect there's part of the new HBO regime that wants to kill this golden goose.  

The new crew developed 30 min shows like Veep and Silicon valley. The old guard made Boardwalk Empire and True Blood (and GoT).  It's a different management style like Bowles vs Gregg Williams 

 

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, Irish Jet said:

Why not just kill Jon?

because he's beloved by everyone and that might be a line even she can't cross

but if it looks like a routine city burning... 

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Copy and paste this into any reaction to every popular show that ever ended except maybe Breaking Bad. David Chase got it right in hindsight. There is no satisfying people, best to black everything out and let armchair quarterbacks figure it out for themselves, essentially saying: “If you think you can do a better job, here’s your chance.”

 

I was definitely thinking of The Sopranos last night after watching that, and how pissed everyone was about it at the time. I’d imagine if I wrote a show that became a phenomenon like GoT, I’d probably be upset if a portion of the viewership didn’t freak out as it got closer to the end. Think of some shows that were huge for three seasons that people just gave up on altogether, like The Walking Dead. Ultimately, I think we’ll all remember GoT as being great, regardless of the sniping about the close 

[RutgersJetFan]

23 minutes ago, Bleedin Green said:

I think that's a fair point in the big picture, and I'll admit I haven't hated it as much as I realize it's coming across here, mostly because of how easy it becomes to see, and join in pointing to, the stupidity many other people are talking about.  However, I think the one major difference-maker that is that Martin and the show writers have been looking to tell very different types of stories.

The feel of the show has changed since they ran out of Martin's stuff to piggyback off of, and it's no longer what a lot of people got hooked by to begin with.  Martin's deal was always that everything was about the people, and while there was tons of crazy sh*t going on around them, they were never really the primary focus, and mostly used as plot devices.  The show has definitely gone further in the opposite direction with each season, pushing through a particular character arc in 5 minutes so they can spend the next 40 on another battle, which is a big part of what plays into the dissatisfaction with many decisions made.

It feels exactly the same to me. 

[section314]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I was definitely thinking of The Sopranos last night after watching that, and how pissed everyone was about it at the time. I’d imagine if I wrote a show that became a phenomenon like GoT, I’d probably be upset if a portion of the viewership didn’t freak out as it got closer to the end. Think of some shows that were huge for three seasons that people just gave up on altogether, like The Walking Dead. Ultimately, I think we’ll all remember GoT as being great, regardless of the sniping about the close 

Just like how we'll all remember the Woody years, too.?

[bitonti]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I was definitely thinking of The Sopranos last night after watching that, and how pissed everyone was about it at the time. I’d imagine if I wrote a show that became a phenomenon like GoT, I’d probably be upset if a portion of the viewership didn’t freak out as it got closer to the end. Think of some shows that were huge for three seasons that people just gave up on altogether, like The Walking Dead. Ultimately, I think we’ll all remember GoT as being great, regardless of the sniping about the close 

Here's my unpopular opinion: D&D are getting blamed for GRRM's situation. I love the man but he created too many threads to ever bring it in for a soft landing. 

There is this blind faith among the book readers that GRRM's writing would have made it all better, but what if he didn't? There are plenty of 10 book series that suck by the end. What if what we are seeing in season 8 is a multi-person effort to land the Spruce Goose of plotlines? What if it's not HBO's fault what if the end was always going to be a car crash? 

[RutgersJetFan]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I was definitely thinking of The Sopranos last night after watching that, and how pissed everyone was about it at the time. I’d imagine if I wrote a show that became a phenomenon like GoT, I’d probably be upset if a portion of the viewership didn’t freak out as it got closer to the end. Think of some shows that were huge for three seasons that people just gave up on altogether, like The Walking Dead. Ultimately, I think we’ll all remember GoT as being great, regardless of the sniping about the close 

I think BB is the only show that pulled it off because Gilligan is that good and the show takes place in a very short period of time. Every other popular show in history has ended this exact way. 

[cbudiarjo]

1 hour ago, Bleedin Green said:

The bold is why he's pretty meaningless at this point, other than the fact that they're obviously going to try to turn it around, you know, now that he has no other choice.  However, that mindset is most certainly a level of "loyalty" Ned never would have had.  His issue was trying to help everyone, not do whatever one random idiot told him.  Let's not forget, this is the same Ned that was adamantly opposed to Robert's attempts to have Dany killed off, and tried to let Cersei escape her punishment.  Obviously neither turned out to be particularly good positions to take, but it certainly wasn't because of him being a mindless gofer to his king.

As far as Varys, that's my point of why that part, compared to other scenarios (e.g., 40 minutes of a dragon flying around), was unnecessarily rushed.  It would've made far more sense if they made an active point of that being the situation, as opposed to one vague reference of what might have been attempted that was in no way referenced in any decision.

I don't think Jon watching while Vary's the traitor is burned is being a mindless gofer.  He was a traitor.  I don't think he thought Dany would do what she did.

[JustInFudge]

17 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

All of this can be true, and it pretty much is, but in this case, the audience has invested eight years of their lives into this franchise and I think it’s ok to apply a high standard toward the payoff. I’m an overly critical douchebag so I always have to consciously dial back my expectations of these things, and I think some of the critiques have been too harsh. In this instance, however, I think we can all be grateful for what they’ve tried to do with this project and still wish elements of it were handled with more care down the stretch. We’ve watched some of these characters grow up, and now we’re watching them die. It’s ok to have a visceral response to the means by which they’re leaving the stage. 

100%.  When you consider the amount of time spent viewing the series (in some cases twice) you want to feel rewarded for the commitment. 

Make no mistake about it, this is still on the greatest shows ever created IMO.  I just think what made it great has long been forgotten and when it was time to rush the ending, they took liberties on the plot lines, got lazy with some characters and it's been a bit of let down.  I dont think they did themselves any favors by making the audience wait 2 years as well.  I think that is a HUGE factor.   You build up one of the greatest stories ever told, filled with mystery to how it ends, you want the finale to feel fulfilling and to a large degree, they've failed.  I enjoyed the battle of Winterfell, it was fun as sh*t.  Last night, was fun, it was visually stunning.  Storywise, it was just a bit of a let down.  

 

[RutgersJetFan]

26 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

All it takes is to go back and watch any early season scene and you'd notice it's basically a different show. 

There’s a dude with jeans on in the pilot.

[RutgersJetFan]

9 minutes ago, bitonti said:

There is this blind faith among the book readers that GRRM's writing would have made it all better, but what if he didn't? There are plenty of 10 book series that suck by the end. 

This too. Even Asimov has some stinkers.

[Peace Frog]

37 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

All of this can be true, and it pretty much is, but in this case, the audience has invested eight years of their lives into this franchise and I think it’s ok to apply a high standard toward the payoff. I’m an overly critical douchebag so I always have to consciously dial back my expectations of these things, and I think some of the critiques have been too harsh. In this instance, however, I think we can all be grateful for what they’ve tried to do with this project and still wish elements of it were handled with more care down the stretch. We’ve watched some of these characters grow up, and now we’re watching them die. It’s ok to have a visceral response to the means by which they’re leaving the stage. 

 

5 minutes ago, JiF said:

100%.  When you consider the amount of time spent viewing the series (in some cases twice) you want to feel rewarded for the commitment. 

Make no mistake about it, this is still on the greatest shows ever created IMO.  I just think what made it great has long been forgotten and when it was time to rush the ending, they took liberties on the plot lines, got lazy with some characters and it's been a bit of let down.  I dont think they did themselves any favors by making the audience wait 2 years as well.  I think that is a HUGE factor.   You build up one of the greatest stories ever told, filled with mystery to how it ends, you want the finale to feel fulfilling and to a large degree, they've failed.  I enjoyed the battle of Winterfell, it was fun as sh*t.  Last night, was fun, it was visually stunning.  Storywise, it was just a bit of a let down.  

 

I’m enjoying it but the biggest difference in my mind from a truly great show like Breaking Bad (which someone else mentioned) is that this show had kind of plateaued where as BB got better and better virtually every episode and every season was better than the one before. That show started off really good and from there was a hockey stick how is just got better, more creative, more edge of your seat fantastic. 

The last few episodes of BB were so great, what they’ve done on GOT pales in comparison. 

[section314]

Question for the people who have read all the books. Do the dragons obey any Targaryan, or just Dany? If she is killed , and Jon lives, can he control Drogon?

[Irish Jet]

26 minutes ago, bitonti said:

because he's beloved by everyone and that might be a line even she can't cross

but if it looks like a routine city burning... 

Routine city burning?

[T0mShane]

13 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Here's my unpopular opinion: D&D are getting blamed for GRRM's situation. I love the man but he created too many threads to ever bring it in for a soft landing. 

There is this blind faith among the book readers that GRRM's writing would have made it all better, but what if he didn't? There are plenty of 10 book series that suck by the end. What if what we are seeing in season 8 is a multi-person effort to land the Spruce Goose of plotlines? What if it's not HBO's fault what if the end was always going to be a car crash? 

I think it’s exceedingly possible that GRRM got crazy wealthy and lost the thread. 

[T0mShane]

11 minutes ago, JiF said:

100%.  When you consider the amount of time spent viewing the series (in some cases twice) you want to feel rewarded for the commitment. 

Make no mistake about it, this is still on the greatest shows ever created IMO.  I just think what made it great has long been forgotten and when it was time to rush the ending, they took liberties on the plot lines, got lazy with some characters and it's been a bit of let down.  I dont think they did themselves any favors by making the audience wait 2 years as well.  I think that is a HUGE factor.   You build up one of the greatest stories ever told, filled with mystery to how it ends, you want the finale to feel fulfilling and to a large degree, they've failed.  I enjoyed the battle of Winterfell, it was fun as sh*t.  Last night, was fun, it was visually stunning.  Storywise, it was just a bit of a let down.  

 

I was joking with someone last year that GRRM is a sadist and he’s going to go out of his way to torture every viewer and reader at the end by, like, letting Cersei win or something. I don’t think anyone is going to get the end they want, and if it ends up with Jon Snow as King of the World—which is the Disney ending of this story—then, weak

[nycdan]

7 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Routine city burning?

You know...like Detroit after any championship.

[nycdan]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I was joking with someone last year that GRRM is a sadist and he’s going to go out of his way to torture every viewer and reader at the end by, like, letting Cersei win or something. I don’t think anyone is going to get the end they want, and if it ends up with Jon Snow as King of the World—which is the Disney ending of this story—then, weak

I can't see any path that doesn't have Jon kill Dany and then either die himself (Shakespeare) or disappear up north to rejoin the Wildlings and Ghost (Sergio Leone).  A last scene of Jon walking up north with orchestral music playing and either a slow fade to black, or maybe a shot of a young boy yelling "Jon, Jon, come back!"

[Irish Jet]

14 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Here's my unpopular opinion: D&D are getting blamed for GRRM's situation. I love the man but he created too many threads to ever bring it in for a soft landing. 

There is this blind faith among the book readers that GRRM's writing would have made it all better, but what if he didn't? There are plenty of 10 book series that suck by the end. What if what we are seeing in season 8 is a multi-person effort to land the Spruce Goose of plotlines? What if it's not HBO's fault what if the end was always going to be a car crash? 

I agree  that GRRM is to blame for getting them into a plot that he's obviously stuck with himself. The first three books are essentially a series among themselves and then the story sort of resets. Feast for Crows was never going to be possible to adapt in the same way and it starts plots that have no clear direction. I do feel sorry for them in that sense. But the writing has at times been objectively bad - Dorne was just bad, the wight capture plot was just bad, Euron...don't even. That's comparable not with GRRM, not even with the early season but just any television show. 

I mean he will definitely write a more coherent story - He'd better given how long he's had - But he will obviously piss off some people with the ending.  It's way too different now to even compare. It's going to be a different story that may produce a similar end. But even then I'd expect a lot of characters who are alive to die and  vice versa. 

[JustInFudge]

Just now, Peace Frog said:

 

I’m enjoying it but the biggest difference in my mind from a truly great show like Breaking Bad (which someone else mentioned) is that this show had kind of plateaued where as BB got better and better virtually every episode and every season was better than the one before. That show started off really good and from there was a hockey stick how is just got better, more creative, more edge of your seat fantastic. 

The last few episodes of BB were so great, what they’ve done on GOT pales in comparison. 

It's funny, I told some before the season started the GoT is right there with BB.  I cant say that anymore.  BB closed out like a champ.  

I think the timelines made it easier and there wasnt as much involved as the story really still revolved around 1 characters mission and everything that happened was always super close that 1 character or in some way, was directly associated to him.

GoT is much larger universe that I do to a certain extent, understand that it probably couldnt be tied together perfectly tight.  That said, it just seems like they didnt really try here at the end.  I guess that's my biggest complaint.  It seems like they wanted a finish and that was more important than a full circle completion of the story.

[Bleedin Green]

17 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Here's my unpopular opinion: D&D are getting blamed for GRRM's situation. I love the man but he created too many threads to ever bring it in for a soft landing. 

There is this blind faith among the book readers that GRRM's writing would have made it all better, but what if he didn't? There are plenty of 10 book series that suck by the end. What if what we are seeing in season 8 is a multi-person effort to land the Spruce Goose of plotlines? What if it's not HBO's fault what if the end was always going to be a car crash? 

I partially agree with this.  Martin did create a lot of threads, many unnecessary, but the show tossed a lot of them out, so that only works as so much of an excuse.  I wouldn't be that overly shocked if the books (assuming they ever come out at all) end up with some seriously questionable stuff... as not everything he's done has all been well received either.  However, I don't think it's even a question that it will certainly be stylistically different, and they're at least partially responsible for that, whether good or bad.

[T0mShane]

38 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

It feels exactly the same to me. 

This is crazy talk. 

[IndianaJet]

2 hours ago, cbudiarjo said:

Jon is loyal and honorable to a fault, just like Ned.  His queen is Dany, and if she wants to burn Varys, that's her command.  

Vary's didn't die because he said Jon would be a better ruler to Tyrion.  He died because he was actively plotting to have her removed.

I need to watch it again, but i'm pretty sure that girl Vary's was talking to was trying to poison Dany for him, when she said "but she's not eating her meals"

My take was that he was trying to poison her as well, I thought that was fairly obvious, whether Dany ultimately found out about it or not.

As for Jon standing by as Varys was executed, it would be in line with his character.  Varys was essentially trying to overthrow her.  That's treason and punishable by death so Jon would be fine with the sentence, regardless of Varys' "good intentions".

Allister Thorne had "good intentions" when he led the group that stabbed Jon in the heart.

[JustInFudge]

12 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I was joking with someone last year that GRRM is a sadist and he’s going to go out of his way to torture every viewer and reader at the end by, like, letting Cersei win or something. I don’t think anyone is going to get the end they want, and if it ends up with Jon Snow as King of the World—which is the Disney ending of this story—then, weak

Agreed but it's sure lining up that way.  Unless there is a crazy wild card coming; it sure looks like Arya is going to kill Dany and Jon is going to take the Throne because now he sees the light that he is the best man for the job.  

I'm going to stick with my prediction Sansa ends up on the Throne (with maybe Tyrion) and Snow dies somehow in the process (battle to the death with Greyworm?) but I could totally see them forcing Snow on us.

 

[IndianaJet]

1 hour ago, MichaelScott said:

 

This season is so rushed and poorly written because of it. Was the decision on 6 episodes just a financial one? I would have rather waited another year for 10 episodes that did this story justice. 

This whole, the season is "so rushed" thing is really just a myth.  They've ALWAYS rushed through things to get to a bigger plot point.

If you rewatch all of the seasons you can easily point out places where they've "rushed through" things.

For example, in season 1 Catelyn goes from Winterfell to Kings Landing in one episode, then makes her way back to the Inn of the Crossroads in the next episode.  All the while, the tournament of the hand is going on in both episodes.  It's supposed to take two months to go from Winterfell to Kings Landing.  They rushed right through this.

Then, in Season 1 episode 8, about 20 minutes into the episode, Rob Stark learns for the first time that Ned has been taken captive.  Rob is still in Winterfell and sends ravens to call his bannermen and go to war against the Lannisters.  By the end of episode 8 Rob has gatherted his armies and their marching south.  Again....clearly rushed through.

[Klecko73isGod]

31 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Routine city burning?

Happens on every friggin show lately. It's the most tired trope in television.

They write themselves into a corner and BOOM - city burns down.

It happened on The Office, Seinfeld, Barney Miller, LA Law, Mr. Belvedere, you name it. 

There is a reason the cliche "burn the city down" exists.