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Jerimiah and Brooks debate White vs. Cooper ... best in class


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And all of that means jack in the NFL against NFL secondaries. The draft is full of great collegiate players who were not nearly as dominant in the NFL. Now I think Cooper is going to be a great player; no one doubts that. You can denigrate White all you want; this guy is no flash in the pan. I seriously don't get this mentality that you have to put down one guy to build up another. I will take a fast Larry Fitz every day of the week. In fact if you want another comparison to consider there is a guy on the Jets who comes to mind. Fella by the last name of Marshall.

I think you missed what he was saying.

Fitzgerald's college career went a lot more like Cooper than White. Larry Fitzgerald was an extremely decorated and productive WR over his three year college career.

A little cherry on top is that Cooper, like Fitzgerald, will be an extremely young top draft prospect at just 20 years old. Two twenty year old true juniors in the past fifteen years have walked into the draft as no doubt top ten picks - Terrell Suggs and Larry Fitzgerald. Both were ultra productive, highly decorated players from their true freshman seasons on - like Cooper.

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The main thing as far as the Jets are concerned is that if there are two great prospects, it increases the chance of us getting a great prospect at 6 (if we choose to go WR). It's likely that one guy will be gone before we pick, so the closer the two guys are the better in my eyes. I'll be thrilled to get either.

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Dude you obviously were not paying attention because Cooper, White and Parker have been lumped together for months and he was moving up the draft boards way before the combine.   The guy had 109 catches for 1447 yards and 10 TDs. It is not like he wasn't productive last year.  I swear most of you guys most not have seen him play at all to be making these kinds of comments.   Cooper may be closer to Sammy Watkins/Antonio Brown well White is closer to Larry Fitzgerald, Julio Jones or Brandon Marshall.  You would have a problem with that? 

You sound alot like me right there! lol. 

 

 

Im going to go back and watch some Kevin White games again. You just compared White to Fitzgerald which sounds VERY GENEROUS to say the least. Im not sure if you said that given the comparison in that article but what im going to do is give you the benefit of the doubt and go watch a few games again. I totally didnt get Fitzgerald from Whites game. Larry Fitzgerald was widely known for his body control but most of all his ball skills. When he played at Pitt he had arguably the best hands at "any level" while he was in college. The only guy that I've seen come close to Larry Fitzgerald in regards to what he was known for was Alshon Jeffery. This is why I was so high on him. Jeffery wasnt fast, neither was Fitz, but they both had total control of their body when the ball was in the air and those 50/50 balls was more like 90/10 balls when throwing to those guys (Maybe this is what you're comparing?). With that said, though the deep ball was a part of Fitz game, it wasnt because thats what he was best for, like White, it was simply a byproduct of how great his hands were to begin with. Fitz played the WR position with grace and it showed at every facet of the position, not just on high pointing deep throws where White seems to have made bank.

 

Outside of the deep ball, much of what Fitz was appreciated for was bailing out his QB with poorly thrown passes that Fitz didnt even have to slow down for while running short, intermediate and deep routes. And while crossing the middle he'd simply put one arm behind him, one hand the ball and wouldnt even break stride across the field. Fitz was one of those WR's that took the saying "if your fingers touched the ball then it should be a catch" literally. The last player that I've watched to have that type of talent was Jeffery. Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen that in White. To be fair though, I didnt see it in Odell Beckham either, but with Odell I think his best year of playing football was actually his rookie year in the pros, because after going back and watching his LSU tape after his rookie campaign I still couldn't see what ultimately took the league by storm. So maybe you have a keen eye on something here that im simply not picking up. I just haven't seen plays like this from White on a game to game basis. Something that FItz made a college career doing. Hence the reason why I dont see the comparison.

 

Fitzgerald at Pitt.

Fitzgerald.gif

 

But like I said, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and I'll watch a few games again. Are there any games from this past year that you recommend I watch? 

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Yeah nowhere near lol.  Whats not to like about the guy?  As the article I posted mentioned, you can like one without disliking the other.  This is an article from January (BEFORE the Combine).   It has the top 4 receivers in this order - Parker, Strong, White (it was a toss up between those two) and then Cooper.  Now I am not saying I agree with this but just posting to let you know that White has been considered a top 2 or 3 receiver for some time now.  The only thing the combine did show that he had the speed to go with his production and of course that moved him up from maybe 3rd to as high as the 1st receiver off the board. The same thing is happening to Breshard Perriman who is now projected to be a top 20 pick.   

 

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2015/01/28/2015-nfl-draft-ranking-the-top-15-wide-receivers/

It is my understanding that White was the second guy before the draft but was not top 10.  The 40 put him in the top 10.  If the Jets wound up with White I would be happy.  I have wanted them to draft a top wideout for 3 years.  I would just prefer Cooper.

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How about 

 

Decker - Marshall - Kerley - Cooper and Amaro?

 

Honestly, I am a Kerley fan, but I think Cooper might be good enough where he's better than Kerley the minute they step on the field. 

 

Either way, that whole lineup... wow.

 

That's why I'm optimistic about rolling with Fitzpatrick this year. I  don't expect him to just stop being Fitzpatrick, but he was one of the better QBs for about an 8 game stretch last year, and with a lineup like this around him, it can and should offset some of the mistakes he's been prone to with lesser weapons. Also, with a lineup like this, he may be able to put up 300 yards and 2-3 scores a game, enough gaudy offensive positives to offset any turnovers.

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The 40 time made it an argument just like it has made Perriman a possible first round pick along with Phillip Dorsett. A few guys making the argument before hand isn't what im talking about. What im talking about is the overwhelming amount of debate thats occurring TODAY. 

 

 

You know what im saying.

 

I don't, really. Those aren't just some random guys - they're ones that were easy to find and basically the three who completely run NFLN's coverage. White's been talked about as a potential first rounder and started getting some Larry Fitzgerald comparisons in September and most people had realized he was a top 10 guy if he didn't crawl in the 40 by January/early February.

 

I believe they're both quality prospects based on what you see on the field, but they're very different from a style standpoint. Which one you prefer depends on what kind of receiver you like. Cooper is much more polished, a better route runner, absurdly quick, fast, precise in his movements, good after the catch, and young which gives him upside if you don't think he's entirely filled out yet. White is generally more physical - bigger, stronger, better in jump ball/contested situations, tougher to bring down after the catch, better blocker, still fast and explosive, and he's got upside because he can improve as a route runner.

 

So I think this debate would've been happening if White ran a 4.49 instead the 4.35 because the areas where he's better on the field than Cooper don't have anything to do with speed. Analysts/teams just wanted to know he wasn't a 4.6 guy. And he's not.

 

Cooper was more productive in college, but he was the #2 WR in receiving yards nationally whereas White was #6 - White had an excellent season, looks good on the field, has a different set of strengths than Cooper, so some like him more. Has nothing to do with the 4.35 that he ran.

 

Same deal with Perriman and Dorsett. If you watch them play, they're fast. They're not rising up draft boards because they ran good 40's, they were there because they're fast on the field and that gives them upside - plus Perriman's also big so that adds to it. Perriman's first round hype came a lot from Kiper before his pro day but Mayock and Gil Brandt were talking about him prior to his pro day as well. Dorsett was mostly Kiper too (he must like fast guys) and his hype really started at the Senior Bowl. The 40's are a talking point I guess, but these guys are being hyped as prospects because of on-field potential due to play speed.

 

The overwhelming amount of debate that's occurring today is because there's way too long between the end of the season and the draft and they have nothing else to talk about. But Jeremiah and Brooks could have had this exact same conversation in January and would have had the same takes.

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Cooper has been a top five pick in this draft since before White qualified for big boy college. Four star recruit. Dominated the highest level of college competition to the tune of 1000 yards and 10 touchdowns at the age of 18. Been in the same spot at the top of everybody's mock for a year, during which time he had a monster season and fake debate showed up sporting dreads.

 

I'm not trying to knock Cooper as a prospect. What I disagree with with is the sentiment that the White/Cooper debate is happening now because White ran a fast 40. The debate is happening because they're both really good prospects with different styles and that has been the case since the end of the college season. Let's not diminish White the player because he happened to run well.

 

Sometimes I'm convinced people on this board would like White better as a prospect if he was exactly the same but ran a 4.47 at the combine. It seems like having good timed speed almost completely invalidates any level of quality play on the field and automatically makes someone a dreaded workout warrior who needs to be avoided.

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I believe they're both quality prospects based on what you see on the field, but they're very different from a style standpoint. Which one you prefer depends on what kind of receiver you like. Cooper is much more polished, a better route runner, absurdly quick, fast, precise in his movements, good after the catch, and young which gives him upside if you don't think he's entirely filled out yet. White is generally more physical - bigger, stronger, better in jump ball/contested situations, tougher to bring down after the catch, better blocker, still fast and explosive, and he's got upside because he can improve as a route runner.

 

 

 

 

that's not true, it's your tolerance for risk. If White had 3 years of insane productivity like Cooper, who wouldn't prefer the receiver who is (your words) more physical - bigger, stronger, better in jump ball/contested situations, tougher to bring down after the catch, better blocker, still fast and explosive

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that's not true, it's your tolerance for risk. If White had 3 years of insane productivity like Cooper, who wouldn't prefer the receiver who is (your words) more physical - bigger, stronger, better in jump ball/contested situations, tougher to bring down after the catch, better blocker, still fast and explosive

 

Somebody who prefers quickness, route running, and the ability to get open and places value on polish. White doesn't separate as well, isn't as quick or precise in his movements, and Cooper will probably always be a better route runner. Certain guys in the NFL mostly win based off of athleticism and certain guys are better technical receivers - there's room for each guy to develop in both areas but I think it's fair to assume that Cooper will be the more technically proficient receiver than White not just now but over the course of their careers.

 

Tolerance for risk is a factor I guess, but both have risk. Cooper's being that he really mostly wins on the ground and is coming from an offense that's had other receivers be hyper productive in college and mediocre in the NFL, and White's being that he was productive for one year as an older prospect and needs to clean up some things technically.

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Somebody who prefers quickness, route running, and the ability to get open and places value on polish. White doesn't separate as well, isn't as quick or precise in his movements, and Cooper will probably always be a better route runner. Certain guys in the NFL mostly win based off of athleticism and certain guys are better technical receivers - there's room for each guy to develop in both areas but I think it's fair to assume that Cooper will be the more technically proficient receiver than White not just now but over the course of their careers.

 

Tolerance for risk is a factor I guess, but both have risk. Cooper's being that he really mostly wins on the ground and is coming from an offense that's had other receivers be hyper productive in college and mediocre in the NFL, and White's being that he was productive for one year as an older prospect and needs to clean up some things technically.

ummm which bama wr's are you talkin about Julio is a pro bowler, you lost me mon

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Somebody who prefers quickness, route running, and the ability to get open and places value on polish. White doesn't separate as well, isn't as quick or precise in his movements, and Cooper will probably always be a better route runner. Certain guys in the NFL mostly win based off of athleticism and certain guys are better technical receivers - there's room for each guy to develop in both areas but I think it's fair to assume that Cooper will be the more technically proficient receiver than White not just now but over the course of their careers.

 

Tolerance for risk is a factor I guess, but both have risk. Cooper's being that he really mostly wins on the ground and is coming from an offense that's had other receivers be hyper productive in college and mediocre in the NFL, and White's being that he was productive for one year as an older prospect and needs to clean up some things technically.

 

 

what I'm saying is that ideally I prefer bigger, strong, faster, more athletic... But I'd still take Cooper due to him having proven it more consistantly

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ummm which bama wr's are you talkin about Julio is a pro bowler, you lost me mon

 

If you're asking about that last bit (offense that's had other receivers be hyper productive in college and mediocre in the NFL) I'm not talking about Kiffin, not Alabama. Mainly Woods and Lee.

 

To be clear, I like Cooper a lot as a prospect. I think he's a bigger Antonio Brown with upside to continue to improve upon his weaknesses as he gets older and stronger. Kiffin's offense is weird when it comes to projecting guys though.

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what I'm saying is that ideally I prefer bigger, strong, faster, more athletic... But I'd still take Cooper due to him having proven it more consistantly

 

So maybe it's your tolerance for risk, but that's not the only thing separating the two as prospects. They're both good, I think any debate is just to fill air time. I think this could be an AJ Green/Julio Jones situation. The teams that get these two will probably both be happy.

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So maybe it's your tolerance for risk, but that's not the only thing separating the two as prospects. They're both good, I think any debate is just to fill air time. I think this could be an AJ Green/Julio Jones situation. The teams that get these two will probably both be happy.

 

We are in agreement. Both should be excellent NFL players and I would have no problem with either of them. 

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I'm not trying to knock Cooper as a prospect. What I disagree with with is the sentiment that the White/Cooper debate is happening now because White ran a fast 40. The debate is happening because they're both really good prospects with different styles and that has been the case since the end of the college season. Let's not diminish White the player because he happened to run well.

 

Sometimes I'm convinced people on this board would like White better as a prospect if he was exactly the same but ran a 4.47 at the combine. It seems like having good timed speed almost completely invalidates any level of quality play on the field and automatically makes someone a dreaded workout warrior who needs to be avoided.

 

I am glad I am not the only one who gets it. 

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what I'm saying is that ideally I prefer bigger, strong, faster, more athletic... But I'd still take Cooper due to him having proven it more consistantly

Yeah I would usually prefer taller, stronger, physical guys with speed that can win with their body by boxing out DBs, but Cooper is so smooth, quick and explosive I would be ecstatic to have him.

Hopefully Oakland goes with White (maybe that 40 time along with the athleticism solidifies their choice if Al Davis' son is anything like he was) and Cooper falls to us. If Cooper is gone I'd be happy with White too, but may look at what's left for pass rushers first.

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It's like these Kevin White fanatics are having a dumb-off. Let's see who wins. My money is on JetBlue, followed by SonnyJet.

So now we are fanatics because we have a different opinion than you?  It must be nice to live your small minded world.

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You sound alot like me right there! lol. 

 

 

Im going to go back and watch some Kevin White games again. You just compared White to Fitzgerald which sounds VERY GENEROUS to say the least. Im not sure if you said that given the comparison in that article but what im going to do is give you the benefit of the doubt and go watch a few games again. I totally didnt get Fitzgerald from Whites game. Larry Fitzgerald was widely known for his body control but most of all his ball skills. When he played at Pitt he had arguably the best hands at "any level" while he was in college. The only guy that I've seen come close to Larry Fitzgerald in regards to what he was known for was Alshon Jeffery. This is why I was so high on him. Jeffery wasnt fast, neither was Fitz, but they both had total control of their body when the ball was in the air and those 50/50 balls was more like 90/10 balls when throwing to those guys (Maybe this is what you're comparing?). With that said, though the deep ball was a part of Fitz game, it wasnt because thats what he was best for, like White, it was simply a byproduct of how great his hands were to begin with. Fitz played the WR position with grace and it showed at every facet of the position, not just on high pointing deep throws where White seems to have made bank.

 

Outside of the deep ball, much of what Fitz was appreciated for was bailing out his QB with poorly thrown passes that Fitz didnt even have to slow down for while running short, intermediate and deep routes. And while crossing the middle he'd simply put one arm behind him, one hand the ball and wouldnt even break stride across the field. Fitz was one of those WR's that took the saying "if your fingers touched the ball then it should be a catch" literally. The last player that I've watched to have that type of talent was Jeffery. Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen that in White. To be fair though, I didnt see it in Odell Beckham either, but with Odell I think his best year of playing football was actually his rookie year in the pros, because after going back and watching his LSU tape after his rookie campaign I still couldn't see what ultimately took the league by storm. So maybe you have a keen eye on something here that im simply not picking up. I just haven't seen plays like this from White on a game to game basis. Something that FItz made a college career doing. Hence the reason why I dont see the comparison.

 

Fitzgerald at Pitt.

Fitzgerald.gif

 

But like I said, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and I'll watch a few games again. Are there any games from this past year that you recommend I watch? 

 

Much of it is in the eyes of the beholder.  If you look at Beckhams ability to make plays on the ball, I see similar skills in White in a bigger package.  I am not saying at all they he will have a season like Beckham so please I hope no one goes there....   I just think he just scratched the surface of his ability last year and will really blow up in the NFL.

 

Why the Fitz comparisons?  Hands, body control, leaping ability, ball tracking; ability to win 50-50 passes.  BTW Julio Junes is who he has personally compared himself and modeled his game after.  

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I don't, really. Those aren't just some random guys - they're ones that were easy to find and basically the three who completely run NFLN's coverage. White's been talked about as a potential first rounder and started getting some Larry Fitzgerald comparisons in September and most people had realized he was a top 10 guy if he didn't crawl in the 40 by January/early February.

 

I believe they're both quality prospects based on what you see on the field, but they're very different from a style standpoint. Which one you prefer depends on what kind of receiver you like. Cooper is much more polished, a better route runner, absurdly quick, fast, precise in his movements, good after the catch, and young which gives him upside if you don't think he's entirely filled out yet. White is generally more physical - bigger, stronger, better in jump ball/contested situations, tougher to bring down after the catch, better blocker, still fast and explosive, and he's got upside because he can improve as a route runner.

 

So I think this debate would've been happening if White ran a 4.49 instead the 4.35 because the areas where he's better on the field than Cooper don't have anything to do with speed. Analysts/teams just wanted to know he wasn't a 4.6 guy. And he's not.

 

Cooper was more productive in college, but he was the #2 WR in receiving yards nationally whereas White was #6 - White had an excellent season, looks good on the field, has a different set of strengths than Cooper, so some like him more. Has nothing to do with the 4.35 that he ran.

 

Same deal with Perriman and Dorsett. If you watch them play, they're fast. They're not rising up draft boards because they ran good 40's, they were there because they're fast on the field and that gives them upside - plus Perriman's also big so that adds to it. Perriman's first round hype came a lot from Kiper before his pro day but Mayock and Gil Brandt were talking about him prior to his pro day as well. Dorsett was mostly Kiper too (he must like fast guys) and his hype really started at the Senior Bowl. The 40's are a talking point I guess, but these guys are being hyped as prospects because of on-field potential due to play speed.

 

The overwhelming amount of debate that's occurring today is because there's way too long between the end of the season and the draft and they have nothing else to talk about. But Jeremiah and Brooks could have had this exact same conversation in January and would have had the same takes.

 

Tremendous post.    

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Much of it is in the eyes of the beholder.  If you look at Beckhams ability to make plays on the ball, I see similar skills in White in a bigger package.  I am not saying at all they he will have a season like Beckham so please I hope no one goes there....   I just think he just scratched the surface of his ability last year and will really blow up in the NFL.

 

Why the Fitz comparisons?  Hands, body control, leaping ability, ball tracking; ability to win 50-50 passes.  BTW Julio Junes is who he has personally compared himself and modeled his game after.  

What games do you recommend me watching? 

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Tremendous post.    

 

I don't, really. Those aren't just some random guys - they're ones that were easy to find and basically the three who completely run NFLN's coverage. White's been talked about as a potential first rounder and started getting some Larry Fitzgerald comparisons in September and most people had realized he was a top 10 guy if he didn't crawl in the 40 by January/early February.

 

I believe they're both quality prospects based on what you see on the field, but they're very different from a style standpoint. Which one you prefer depends on what kind of receiver you like. Cooper is much more polished, a better route runner, absurdly quick, fast, precise in his movements, good after the catch, and young which gives him upside if you don't think he's entirely filled out yet. White is generally more physical - bigger, stronger, better in jump ball/contested situations, tougher to bring down after the catch, better blocker, still fast and explosive, and he's got upside because he can improve as a route runner.

 

So I think this debate would've been happening if White ran a 4.49 instead the 4.35 because the areas where he's better on the field than Cooper don't have anything to do with speed. Analysts/teams just wanted to know he wasn't a 4.6 guy. And he's not.

 

Cooper was more productive in college, but he was the #2 WR in receiving yards nationally whereas White was #6 - White had an excellent season, looks good on the field, has a different set of strengths than Cooper, so some like him more. Has nothing to do with the 4.35 that he ran.

 

Same deal with Perriman and Dorsett. If you watch them play, they're fast. They're not rising up draft boards because they ran good 40's, they were there because they're fast on the field and that gives them upside - plus Perriman's also big so that adds to it. Perriman's first round hype came a lot from Kiper before his pro day but Mayock and Gil Brandt were talking about him prior to his pro day as well. Dorsett was mostly Kiper too (he must like fast guys) and his hype really started at the Senior Bowl. The 40's are a talking point I guess, but these guys are being hyped as prospects because of on-field potential due to play speed.

 

The overwhelming amount of debate that's occurring today is because there's way too long between the end of the season and the draft and they have nothing else to talk about. But Jeremiah and Brooks could have had this exact same conversation in January and would have had the same takes.

I typed a bit for this response, then realized that it didnt matter that much to me. I was around pre and post combine to see what actually happened. Why argue about it?

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Yeah I would usually prefer taller, stronger, physical guys with speed that can win with their body by boxing out DBs, but Cooper is so smooth, quick and explosive I would be ecstatic to have him.

Hopefully Oakland goes with White (maybe that 40 time along with the athleticism solidifies their choice if Al Davis' son is anything like he was) and Cooper falls to us. If Cooper is gone I'd be happy with White too, but may look at what's left for pass rushers first.

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I can't argue with anything you posted.  I would love to get Cooper or White; somehow I think we may be going edge rusher, though. 

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Check out WVU vs. Alabama for starters...  

Just watched that game. I seen a very good, very strong WR who doesnt masks his routes and will kill any DB playing off man as well as a DB that can't handle physicality. I did see white get one hand on the ball that was thrown behind him that he couldn't bring in and I also seen him allow a TD to be broken up when it should have been caught (landed right in his hands). 2 things that actually defined Fitz style given that he was able to do those very things. 

 

You know who he actually looks like? A stronger, faster Plaxico Burress when he was at Michigan state. I'll have to disagree with those above average commentators when comparing this guy to Larry Fitzgerald. He's this years version of Burress in my eyes which is pretty nice. 

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So now we are fanatics because we have a different opinion than you?

 

No. You just don't made any sense. I don't give a sh*t if you share my opinion, that's not the issue. Mike Mayock has White as his #1 receiver, I don't have an issue with that. I don't agree, but I can see why some might see it different. But for you and other bozos like you to spew this "he could be the next Fitzgerald" or "he's similar to Brandon Marshall" type horsesh*t, that does bother me. Because you don't know what you're talking about.

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It's not "close". It's either or. Either you think Cooper is easily better or you go with White. They're just different players with a different pedigree / body of work.

 

Personally I think Cooper is easily the better receiver of the two. He's closer to Antonio Brown/Sammy Watkins while Kevin White is more of a Mike Wallace. Case in point, look at where everybody had him going a few months ago. Somewhere in the 2nd round, maybe late 1st. Then he runs that fast 40 and suddenly he's up there with Amari? No. Way.

 

White and Wallace don't have a lot in common other than speed.  Wallace plays faster (even though White's 40 is comparable) but White is way more physical and excells in jump ball situations.  Wallace is somewhat one-dimensional in my opinion.  White has a chance to be a much better player in the NFL.

 

From the tape that I've seen, White seems to be a much better blocker than Cooper, who seems to be not all that interested in blocking.

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White and Wallace don't have a lot in common other than speed.  Wallace plays faster (even though White's 40 is comparable) but White is way more physical and excells in jump ball situations.  Wallace is somewhat one-dimensional in my opinion.  White has a chance to be a much better player in the NFL.

 

From the tape that I've seen, White seems to be a much better blocker than Cooper, who seems to be not all that interested in blocking.

Marshall, Decker are excellent blockers. We can spare having Cooper only focused on making plays downfield

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