Jerimiah and Brooks debate White vs. Cooper ... best in class

[MountaineerLegion]

I'm late to this but I'm going to post anyway.  I read through the whole thing and the thing that amazes me is the folks who think it isn't close.  I'm guessing they haven't seen much of him.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw9BWDah6co&feature=player_detailpage

[#27TheDominator]

EDIT: Holy sh*t.  It wasn't even that guy.  It was Jeremiah!  Also, for Shane:  IDIOTS!

 

 

  Kevin White reminds me of Steve Smith. 

[Komba]

I would take Kevin White over Cooper... I guess some people around here really like Cooper because he's been mentioned as the top receiver for a longer period of time, but that's only because of White's situation just playing for WV this season.  White is a superstar.  He has elite speed (more than Cooper) and is unreal at attacking the ball in the air.   Where Cooper is very good is that he's more shifty and smooth.  

 

I'd go with White though because his ceiling is higher than Cooper and I think he's the better player.  The raw playing speed for White is fantastic and his ability with the ball in the air is great as well.  I like Cooper very much as well so I won't mind him either.

 

2 guys I want most out of this draft are Kevin White and Grayson.  I think Grayson is the only QB in this draft who really has everything to make it work.  I think Mariota is the next closest one, but he's so damn awkward as far as his personality goes that I'm not sure a bunch of men will follow him like needed.  Even as dopey as Eli is, he has a confidence about him that people get behind.

[win4ever]

I still say Cooper over White, even after all the breakdowns from everyone.  Both are extremely talented, but Cooper fits our team better right now, is less risky, and I think his upside is understated.  From all accounts, his 40 time was right there with White (I believe there were reports that his 40 at the combine was revised to the mid 4.3 range, which would fall right near White) and his speed is clearly evident in tapes.  He's also one of the best WRs I've seen in tracking the deep pass, and is very shifty in his route running.  I love how he sets up DBs with moves, and he can play the slot extremely well for us to begin his career.  

 

White also has a ton of potential, and I wouldn't exactly be crying if we took him, but he seems risky to me compared to Cooper.  I don't see nearly the 4.3 speed on tape with him and I feel like he has trouble tracking the deep pass.  While I'm not comparing the players because White is clearly a superior player, this same issue happened with Stephen Hill.  He had amazing speed when he just had to run, but he loses his speed when he has to look back, find the ball.  Now, all WRs lose speed when they do this (which is why DBs don't tend to look back until the last second, because running without turning your head allows them to make up the gap) but Cooper is much more smoother at it than White.  This is another thing that sets OBJ apart as well, because he tracked the deep pass extremely well which allowed him to maintain the distance from the CB.  White will catch more 50/50 passes for sure, but I think Cooper will lessen the chances of 50/50 passes to begin with because on deep passes, I think he'll have a yard or two separation in comparison to White because of how good he tracks the ball.  

 

While Cooper had a pretty bad showing at the Vertical, but White wasn't exactly leaping out of the building either, with a 36 inch vertical, which placed him in the middle of the pack.  And their Broad jumps were just 3 inches apart.  Hence, I'd rather just take the guy that I know is already a very good technician, than the guy that has to improve their, when I think their physical tools aren't that drastically different, besides two inches in height. 

 

And I think as others have mentioned in this thread.  Don't get me wrong, I think White is an excellent prospect, and don't think he's trash, but I would take Cooper over him for sure.  

[Komba]

I still say Cooper over White, even after all the breakdowns from everyone.  Both are extremely talented, but Cooper fits our team better right now, is less risky, and I think his upside is understated.  From all accounts, his 40 time was right there with White (I believe there were reports that his 40 at the combine was revised to the mid 4.3 range, which would fall right near White) and his speed is clearly evident in tapes.  He's also one of the best WRs I've seen in tracking the deep pass, and is very shifty in his route running.  I love how he sets up DBs with moves, and he can play the slot extremely well for us to begin his career.  

 

White also has a ton of potential, and I wouldn't exactly be crying if we took him, but he seems risky to me compared to Cooper.  I don't see nearly the 4.3 speed on tape with him and I feel like he has trouble tracking the deep pass.  While I'm not comparing the players because White is clearly a superior player, this same issue happened with Stephen Hill.  He had amazing speed when he just had to run, but he loses his speed when he has to look back, find the ball.  Now, all WRs lose speed when they do this (which is why DBs don't tend to look back until the last second, because running without turning your head allows them to make up the gap) but Cooper is much more smoother at it than White.  This is another thing that sets OBJ apart as well, because he tracked the deep pass extremely well which allowed him to maintain the distance from the CB.  White will catch more 50/50 passes for sure, but I think Cooper will lessen the chances of 50/50 passes to begin with because on deep passes, I think he'll have a yard or two separation in comparison to White because of how good he tracks the ball.  

 

While Cooper had a pretty bad showing at the Vertical, but White wasn't exactly leaping out of the building either, with a 36 inch vertical, which placed him in the middle of the pack.  And their Broad jumps were just 3 inches apart.  Hence, I'd rather just take the guy that I know is already a very good technician, than the guy that has to improve their, when I think their physical tools aren't that drastically different, besides two inches in height. 

 

And I think as others have mentioned in this thread.  Don't get me wrong, I think White is an excellent prospect, and don't think he's trash, but I would take Cooper over him for sure.  

 

 

You can like Cooper over White, but I disagree very much with part of the assessment. Forget 40's, White is faster on tape when it comes to running straight ahead and UNREAL at attacking the ball and bringing it in on deep balls.  Cooper is good at that as well.  Also disagree that White is risky in any way.  He is what he is.  He's essentially Julio Jones in my mind hopefully without the injuries.   Great outside player with amazing deep speed.  Doesn't run as clean of routes as Julio in the short area yet, but upside is there.  Kid is incredibly competitive and those are qualities that usually make these kids better at the pro level.

 

Where I do agree with you is that Cooper probably does fit this team better than White as it's currently constructed.  Cooper would work well from the inside of the field while it wouldn't be White's best spot.  White is more of an outside player.

 

But I still think White is the better player though and that's why I'd ultimately take him.

 

 

One big positive for Cooper over White is that he's 2 full years younger than White.  That means a lot.  And Cooper is more likely to be a good player at age 30+ because of his efficiency in running compared to White who's play is more likely to fall off once he loses the physical speed edge over everyone.

[Komba]

Overall, at number 6, Cooper and White are very likely the two best players available (as far as I view it) so I'd be thrilled with either of them.  I only see Williams as a better player over both White and Cooper. 

 

Likely order right now is 

1. Winston

2. Mariota

3. Fowler

4. Williams

5. Wildcard but likely not receiver

6. Cooper or White

 

 

Then in my perfect world we find a way to get Grayson because I really think a lot of him.  Hundley, Petty, and Mannion, and whoever else you want to throw in the next tier are wastes.  All huge flaws.

[MountaineerLegion]

I still say Cooper over White, even after all the breakdowns from everyone.  Both are extremely talented, but Cooper fits our team better right now, is less risky, and I think his upside is understated.  From all accounts, his 40 time was right there with White (I believe there were reports that his 40 at the combine was revised to the mid 4.3 range, which would fall right near White) and his speed is clearly evident in tapes.  He's also one of the best WRs I've seen in tracking the deep pass, and is very shifty in his route running.  I love how he sets up DBs with moves, and he can play the slot extremely well for us to begin his career.  

 

White also has a ton of potential, and I wouldn't exactly be crying if we took him, but he seems risky to me compared to Cooper.  I don't see nearly the 4.3 speed on tape with him and I feel like he has trouble tracking the deep pass.  While I'm not comparing the players because White is clearly a superior player, this same issue happened with Stephen Hill.  He had amazing speed when he just had to run, but he loses his speed when he has to look back, find the ball.  Now, all WRs lose speed when they do this (which is why DBs don't tend to look back until the last second, because running without turning your head allows them to make up the gap) but Cooper is much more smoother at it than White.  This is another thing that sets OBJ apart as well, because he tracked the deep pass extremely well which allowed him to maintain the distance from the CB.  White will catch more 50/50 passes for sure, but I think Cooper will lessen the chances of 50/50 passes to begin with because on deep passes, I think he'll have a yard or two separation in comparison to White because of how good he tracks the ball.  

 

While Cooper had a pretty bad showing at the Vertical, but White wasn't exactly leaping out of the building either, with a 36 inch vertical, which placed him in the middle of the pack.  And their Broad jumps were just 3 inches apart.  Hence, I'd rather just take the guy that I know is already a very good technician, than the guy that has to improve their, when I think their physical tools aren't that drastically different, besides two inches in height. 

 

And I think as others have mentioned in this thread.  Don't get me wrong, I think White is an excellent prospect, and don't think he's trash, but I would take Cooper over him for sure.  

 

Where on earth do you get this from.  I watched every single game he played at WVU and never saw this.  It's hard to "prove" but check out this video at the 3:52 mark.  It's obvious he is making major adjustments to this deep ball.

 

https://youtu.be/Aw9BWDah6co?t=3m52s

 

Edit: It's actually the next catch after the 3:52 mark.

[#27TheDominator]

I honestly think adjusting to the deep ball and throwing the deep ball are among the easiest things to do.  They only become difficult when you are trying to use 44 year old eyes to track a ball at night in a field lit for soccer.

[JetBlue]

Where on earth do you get this from.  I watched every single game he played at WVU and never saw this.  It's hard to "prove" but check out this video at the 3:52 mark.  It's obvious he is making major adjustments to this deep ball.

 

https://youtu.be/Aw9BWDah6co?t=3m52s

 

Edit: It's actually the next catch after the 3:52 mark.

Great video, thanks.   This guy is going to be a monster in the NFL and his best football is definitely ahead of him. 

[win4ever]

You can like Cooper over White, but I disagree very much with part of the assessment. Forget 40's, White is faster on tape when it comes to running straight ahead and UNREAL at attacking the ball and bringing it in on deep balls.  Cooper is good at that as well.  Also disagree that White is risky in any way.  He is what he is.  He's essentially Julio Jones in my mind hopefully without the injuries.   Great outside player with amazing deep speed.  Doesn't run as clean of routes as Julio in the short area yet, but upside is there.  Kid is incredibly competitive and those are qualities that usually make these kids better at the pro level.

 

Where I do agree with you is that Cooper probably does fit this team better than White as it's currently constructed.  Cooper would work well from the inside of the field while it wouldn't be White's best spot.  White is more of an outside player.

 

But I still think White is the better player though and that's why I'd ultimately take him.

 

 

One big positive for Cooper over White is that he's 2 full years younger than White.  That means a lot.  And Cooper is more likely to be a good player at age 30+ because of his efficiency in running compared to White who's play is more likely to fall off once he loses the physical speed edge over everyone.

 

I just don't see it on tape to be honest.  Obviously, that's just me, and I could very well be wrong.  But from those draft breakdown videos, I didn't see him separate on the deep passes nearly as well as I saw Cooper do it.  Part of my proof can also be seen in the fact that most people who watched him play expected a 40 in the 4.5 range, and were widely surprised that he ran that fast.  That to me lends some credibility that people didn't see him as a true burner with 4.3 speed on tape.  I think he has speed obviously, because he's not David Nelson out there, but I don't think he has 4.3 speed on the field.  

 

The route running can be a bit of an issue, but again, I think Cooper is special in that regard for a college player.  White is clearly better in 50/50 passes, is also a better runner after the catch because he's more physical in terms of initiating contact.  But on a deep pass, I would rather have Cooper running under it than White.  

 

 

 

Where on earth do you get this from.  I watched every single game he played at WVU and never saw this.  It's hard to "prove" but check out this video at the 3:52 mark.  It's obvious he is making major adjustments to this deep ball.

 

https://youtu.be/Aw9BWDah6co?t=3m52s

 

Edit: It's actually the next catch after the 3:52 mark.

 

That's a nice play, but there are also examples of plays where he doesn't gain the separation down the field as consistently as Cooper.  I'm not talking about the adjustments he makes, I'm talking about tracking the ball without losing as much speed as Cooper.  From what I've seen, on deep passes, Cooper does a better job at maintaining speed than White.  I think Cooper is exceptional at it, while White is merely good at it.  Not saying he can't really do it.  

 

 

The 3:00 pass, and 4:45 plays were both straight line deep passes where he didn't get the separation (albeit the first one did draw a flag).  Now, White does have the ability for sure, there are atleast two deep passes in the Oklahoma game where he absolutely burns his defender and gains separation (one TD, one was a ball overthrown I believe) so he has the ability, but Cooper is better at it.  

[Komba]

I watched White on tape and fully expected him to run faster than Cooper.  His explosion and the way he separates was awesome.   If people were saying that they expected White to run around 4.5, they just didn't know what they were looking at.  He's not quite as smooth out of his breaks and Cooper will always have a faster 3 cone, but White is the faster human being over 40 yards without a doubt.

 

Someone who isn't as fast on tape as they are timed would be Perriman.  Good speed, but not the unreal timed speed he showed.

 

 

Really important for me to put though, I think both will actually be very good receivers in this league.  And I typically think most guys will bust.  They both have next level qualities that can really change an offense.  I'd just prefer White because of the downfield aspect and the leaping/attacking the ball part.

[FTL Jet Fan]

I would be happy with either at 6.

[papz187]

Overall, at number 6, Cooper and White are very likely the two best players available (as far as I view it) so I'd be thrilled with either of them. I only see Williams as a better player over both White and Cooper.

Likely order right now is

1. Winston

2. Mariota

3. Fowler

4. Williams

5. Wildcard but likely not receiver

6. Cooper or White

Then in my perfect world we find a way to get Grayson because I really think a lot of him. Hundley, Petty, and Mannion, and whoever else you want to throw in the next tier are wastes. All huge flaws.

See I think it will be

1. Winston

2. Mariota

3. Fowler or Williams

4. Cooper or White

5. Fowler or Williams (whoever Jacksonville doesn't take)

6. We can take the WR Oakland doesn't take (hopefully Cooper IMO)

I think Oakland will take a WR to help develop Carr. White might be their pick since he seems to fit what they like in a WR, which would leave us with Cooper. Only guy Oakland might take over a WR is Williams, but more than likely one of the WRs is gone by the time we get to 6 IMO.

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[SonnyJet]

The bold pretty much sums it up. Its not that I dont like White. I just think that a 22 year old physically dominated in college, playing against alot of 18, 19 and 20 year olds. A guy like Cooper dominated with skill as an 18 year old against alot of 18, 19 and 20 year olds, and continued to do so during is college career.

Yea like age matters ...please stfu

[DaBallhawk]

That's just a dumb argument, factoring in age and ignoring the rest. You can make a case that White wasn't consistent or didn't consistently play at an elite level, but that's about it. Outside of that it's just a dumb thing to say this guy did that at age so and so and that guy did this. There are so many different things that factor in when you do this kind of stuff, it's pointless.

[Scoop24]

I don't know where people are getting that White was an average prospect before the combine from. Even before the combine he was going in the top 12 picks.

That being said, Cooper is definitely the pick

Agreed on both points ..

[Villain The Foe]

Yea like age matters ...please stfu

Great response. Very insightful info right here I tell ya!

 

I would school you here, but sometimes its better to let people enjoy their bliss instead of wasting time debating with someone who can't understand how age matters. 

[JetBlue]

Great response. Very insightful info right here I tell ya!

 

I would school you here, but sometimes its better to let people enjoy their bliss instead of wasting time debating with someone who can't understand how age matters. 

The only way age matters in this case is that Cooper may have a longer career or play at a high level longer. Other than that I totally agree with poster.  Parker and Strong are both 22 as well I believe.  

[32EBoozer]

Yea like age matters ...please stfu

Hey Sonny.... I've been posting on the board for about a year and the one thing I realized, just like on the playground, you mind your manners until you're part of the crew. The guys on this board are very friendly and once they get used to you, they bring you into their group. THEN you can talk a little smack!!

 

Despite Villain's obsession with Glennon, he is a valued member of the board and bleeds green thru-and-thru.

 

Just my .02 to another new member to the board! Welcome and by all means share your opinions.... politely.

 

Look forward to getting to know you..... Boozer

[cant wait]

The only way age matters in this case is that Cooper may have a longer career or play at a high level longer. Other than that I totally agree with poster. Parker and Strong are both 22 as well I believe.

AJ green and Julio jones were both 22 when drafted too. Since when is that a red flag?

[papz187]

While I don't think age is a huge deciding factor, it is a little more appealing getting an NFL ready prospect at the age of 20.

White is a very good prospect too, and if I thought he was the better prospect I wouldn't let him being 2 years older than Cooper stop me from drafting him, I just personally like Cooper overall a little more regardless of how old either player is.

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[JetBlue]

AJ green and Julio jones were both 22 when drafted too. Since when is that a red flag?

Exactly, I could understand if they were say 25 or something otherwise it is a non-issue.

[JetBlue]

While I don't think age is a huge deciding factor, it is a little more appealing getting an NFL ready prospect at the age of 20.

White is a very good prospect too, and if I thought he was the better prospect I wouldn't let him being 2 years older than Cooper stop me from drafting him, I just personally like Cooper overall a little more regardless of how old either player is.

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I think that Cooper fits in better with the Jets because of his versatility and ability to play inside, outside etc. and his awesome route running ability.  That said I think White will be a more dominant player at the next level. 

[papz187]

I think that Cooper fits in better with the Jets because of his versatility and ability to play inside, outside etc. and his awesome route running ability. That said I think White will be a more dominant player at the next level.

I agree with Cooper being the better fit for this current team since he compliments Marshall and Decker well and can play in the slot. I also think once Marshall is gone Cooper can slide over to the outside and be just as effective with his route running, shiftiness, acceleration, etc.

If Mac thinks White is the better overall prospect though and that he'll be the more dominant player between he and Cooper, than I rather he draft White. I'm sure they can find a way to get White involved in the offense......Marshall was actually very effective when playing in the slot last year, so there's ways to make it work.

I just want the better player, whoever that may be, period.

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[JetBlue]

I agree with Cooper being the better fit for this current team since he compliments Marshall and Decker well and can play in the slot. I also think once Marshall is gone Cooper can slide over to the outside and be just as effective with his route running, shiftiness, acceleration, etc.

If Mac thinks White is the better overall prospect though and that he'll be the more dominant player between he and Cooper, than I rather he draft White. I'm sure they can find a way to get White involved in the offense......Marshall was actually very effective when playing in the slot last year, so there's ways to make it work.

I just want the better player, whoever that may be, period.

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Great points.   I would be fine either way.  I like the way they are playing it close to the vest; I mean I really have no idea whether they go with one of the wide outs, edge rusher, lineman etc.  The only think I feel confident in, is if Mariota is there at 6, he is likely the pick.  Other than that I have no clue which direction they will go in.   

[#27TheDominator]

Great points.   I would be fine either way.  I like the way they are playing it close to the vest; I mean I really have no idea whether they go with one of the wide outs, edge rusher, lineman etc.  The only think I feel confident in, is if Mariota is there at 6, he is likely the pick.  Other than that I have no clue which direction they will go in.   

 

Did you see Calvin Pryor coming?  Sheldon Richardson? 

[cant wait]

While I don't think age is a huge deciding factor, it is a little more appealing getting an NFL ready prospect at the age of 20.

White is a very good prospect too, and if I thought he was the better prospect I wouldn't let him being 2 years older than Cooper stop me from drafting him, I just personally like Cooper overall a little more regardless of how old either player is.

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True but you could make the argument to go with the player with the highest upside instead of the most ready to contributesince we already have depth at the position

[JetBlue]

Did you see Calvin Pryor coming?  Sheldon Richardson? 

 No, you have a point,  but I did see Dee Milliner...  

[papz187]

Great points. I would be fine either way. I like the way they are playing it close to the vest; I mean I really have no idea whether they go with one of the wide outs, edge rusher, lineman etc. The only think I feel confident in, is if Mariota is there at 6, he is likely the pick. Other than that I have no clue which direction they will go in.

Yeah me either. I keep hearing reports lately they love Mariota and are calling to see what it would take to trade up, but at this point who knows what's real and what's a smoke screen.

Personally I feel they truly are interested in Mariota. If things go as planned, they will not be picking as high in the draft next year, so if they like Mariota it might be there best chance to get a top prospect at the position for the next few years. If Mariota is gone, I really have no idea if they want to go Pass rusher or Receiver......I'll guess if Cooper is there he's the pick.

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[Tony The Wiz]

 Neither. I have said before I like White more than Cooper but Green - Beckham(if he stays out of trouble), Strong, and Parker are my top 3 receivers. 

[Villain The Foe]

The only way age matters in this case is that Cooper may have a longer career or play at a high level longer. Other than that I totally agree with poster.  Parker and Strong are both 22 as well I believe.  

In other words, age matters lol! But I can show you how it matters even further. 

 

If I sign a 23 year old rookie in the first round, by the time he becomes eligible for a new contract (age 28) I may not want to extend him because a good portion of that contract could be during declining years. If I sign a younger player in the first round (21) there's a greater possibility that when a new contract comes around (age 26)  I have him in his prime much longer which will maximize my dollars in regards to what I get in return. 

 

So when speaking about Cooper and White, not only are we talking about talent or skill set, but we're also talking about age here. White at 23 will be on a rookie level. By the time Cooper is 23 he could be a pro bowler. 

[32EBoozer]

#Science lol

Makes perfect sense however.

In other words, age matters lol! But I can show you how it matters even further.

If I sign a 23 year old rookie in the first round, by the time he becomes eligible for a new contract (age 28) I may not want to extend him because a good portion of that contract could be during declining years. If I sign a younger player in the first round (21) there's a greater possibility that when a new contract comes around (age 26) I have him in his prime much longer which will maximize my dollars in regards to what I get in return.

So when speaking about Cooper and White, not only are we talking about talent or skill set, but we're also talking about age here. White at 23 will be on a rookie level. By the time Cooper is 23 he could be a pro bowler.

[Dcat]

Yea like age matters ...please stfu

 

 Hey, I might disagree with Villain or another long time poster here about Glennon or any other issue, but unless I've been treated disrespectfully by someone or unless I'm dealing with an obnoxious troll, I try to debate respectfully.  Give it a try. You might actually find a little value in it.

[detectivekimble]

I watched White on tape and fully expected him to run faster than Cooper.  His explosion and the way he separates was awesome.   If people were saying that they expected White to run around 4.5, they just didn't know what they were looking at.  He's not quite as smooth out of his breaks and Cooper will always have a faster 3 cone, but White is the faster human being over 40 yards without a doubt.

 

Someone who isn't as fast on tape as they are timed would be Perriman.  Good speed, but not the unreal timed speed he showed.

 

 

Really important for me to put though, I think both will actually be very good receivers in this league.  And I typically think most guys will bust.  They both have next level qualities that can really change an offense.  I'd just prefer White because of the downfield aspect and the leaping/attacking the ball part.

 

Not true.  Cooper is just as fast, if not faster, than White.

[ComfortablyNumb]

After watching YouTube videos of receivers for the past 3 months I have to say if Cooper is there at 6 you have to be crazy to pass on him.

What I think separates him from the rest is his ability to get open so easily in the slot. Mind you , he's not a slot receiver. He can play on the outside and often did in Alabama.

Now imagine him in our offense with decker and Marshall. You can run plays with Cooper in slot and mix it up switching with Marshall and Kerley as well.

I am finally comfortable with the idea of Cooper at 6 over anyone else.