Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Jet Fan RI

Roger Goodell says Deflategate report should be released 'soon'...***updated 5/6: REPORT RELEASED*** (starts page 8)

Recommended Posts

I'm still laughing my ass off that the Pats drafted a long snapper

LOL

 

They've done it before, in the 6th round of 2009.  That guy lasted a season and a half before developing Steve Blass disease and getting cut.

 

This guy is even more ridiculous.  A 5th round pick that may have a 2-5 year Naval committment before becoming eligible.  Then they followed that up in Rd 6 with a blind guy and then a QB to TE conversion project.  LOL.

 

But despite that clown show, they end up picking up a Chris Gamble clone in Rd 7 who probably should have been picked in Rd 5 instead of the LS.  Weird draft. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I pretty much agree with everything you said above.

 

Brown was a good pick and it filled a need.

 

Richards could have been had in the 4th, let alone the 2nd.

 

To your point, check out these scouting reports for the two defensive backs drafted this year by the Patriots.  Player A was drafted in Round 2, Player B was drafted in Round 7.  It could easily have gone the other way based solely on the scouting reports. 

 

Player A:

 

Pro Day Results

40-yard dash: 4.59 seconds

Vertical jump: 34 1/2 inches

 

Analysis

 

Strengths

 

Team captain and defensive leader. Played some wide receiver in high school. Good hands with ability to make difficult interceptions. Attacks ball at high-point. Moves well as high-low safety. Extended range in run support and doesn't mind the physical side of the position. Has secondary motor for extended pursuit. Good football and personal character. Productive three-year starter.

 

Weaknesses

Displays obvious coverage limitations. Below-average instincts. Slow to see it, with marginal recovery speed. Struggles in man coverage. Grabby at the top of the route and lacks feet to match and mirror. Slow to digest route combinations out of bunch formations. Comes downhill against run quickly, but out of control at times. Needs improvement as a wrap-up tackler.

 

 

Player B:

 

40-yard dash: 4.38 seconds

Vertical jump: 39 inches

 

Analysis
 
Strengths
 
Impressive recovery speed with short­-area twitch to go with it. Can change directions on command and has desired stop/start quickness. Has long arms and is aggressive with them in press coverage. Will look to pop receivers rather than just touch them at line of scrimmage. Will sniff around on plays outside of his responsibility looking to make a play. Has length, speed and ball skills to challenge most down-field throws. Core cover player on special teams. Has physical tools defensive backs coaches covet. Sees what he hits in run support and doesn't throw himself wildly at ball carriers.
 
Weaknesses
 
Willing to take too many physical liberties with receivers down the field. Penalized 6 times for 71 yards in 2014, including three pass interference penalties. Needs to play with more bend in backpedal to maximize body control and transition quickness. Inconsistent defensive awareness. Will allow an occasional throw in front of him or a running back to blow by him without being ready. Gets impatient and undisciplined in mirror-­and-­match situations despite his tools.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect Goodell very well may not hit the Pats, even if they deserve it. But that is a dark suspicion, not based on the facts of the case but on what may be an improper relationship  between Goodell and Kraft.. And hearsay has nothing to do with it. To make a case for the statistical impossibility of the fumble rate improvement and its lining up in time with the rule change, a complete independent analysis would be required. And if the physicist, or a mathematician whose help he may seek, produces such an analysis and it does in fact show it is impossible for the improvement to have occurred without something beyond the rules having occurred, that would be a solid reason for severe punishment. No hearsay involved whatsoever. 

 

If the Spygate and Deflategate investigations (both of which angered Kraft to no end and resulted in an unprecedented fine in the former case and an unprecedented pre-Super Bowl distraction in the latter case) were the product of an improper relationship with Goodell, then Kraft is not getting much bang for his improper relationship bucks. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Shutters*

 

Yeah, but that was not Bill's fault.  I think that was a Pete pick.

 

The Pats flipped him to the Saints for a bounty of draft picks (3rd, 4th and 7th), so he couldn't have been all bad.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The .1% are Jets fans.

 

They keep waiting and hoping.

 

Actually, Rams fans and Bills fans are far more worked up about this stuff than Jets fans. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How did NE cheat in Super Bowls?

Be specific and name facts.

They cheated against the Rams because there was a report that they illegally taped a pre-game walkthrough. The report was retracted, but they obviously cheated because "where there's smoke, there's fire."

They cheated in all subsequent Super Bowls because "once a cheater, always a cheater."

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The quote was: "Ignorance is not a suitable defense. If  you didnt know exactly what was going on in your program, thats no excuse. You should have known."

 

That came directly from Roger Goodell. 

 

I don't think that's what led to Payton's suspension, however.  I don't think that there is strict vicarious liability for the HC anytime there is a violation by someone on his team.  I think the precedential weight being given to the Bountygate penalties in this thread is probably misplaced.

 

I don't remember the details myself, but here is what ESPN said about it at the time:

 

According to the league, Payton ignored instructions from the NFL and Saints ownership to make sure bounties weren't being paid. The league also chastised him for choosing to "falsely deny that the program existed," and for trying to "encourage the false denials by instructing assistants to 'make sure our ducks are in a row.' "

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7718136/sean-payton-new-orleans-saints-banned-one-year-bounties

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BB did virtually everything you highlighted with deflate gate.

 

Here is the full list from Bounty Gate.  Where in the Wells Report is analogous conduct by BB referenced?

 

Commissioner Goodell stated that the actions of the individuals disciplined today violated league rules and constituted conduct detrimental to the league and players. He said the existence of a pay-for-performance/bounty program undermined the integrity of the game. The violations were compounded by the failure of Coach Payton to supervise the players and coaches and his affirmative decision starting in 2010 (a) not to inquire into the facts concerning the pay-for-performance/bounty program even though he was aware of the league's inquiries both in 2010 and 2012; b. to falsely deny that the program existed; © to encourage the false denials by instructing assistants to "make sure our ducks are in a row;" and (d) to ignore instructions from the league office and club ownership to ensure that no such program existed.

 

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/03/full_release_from_the_nfl_on_s.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once again...Exactly.

 

I could take each one of those accusations and apply an incredibily similar accusation to BB in the deflate gate scenario...

 

OK . . . let's see it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and his affirmative decision starting in prior weeks (a) not to inquire into the facts concerning deflated balls being used by his team; b. to falsely deny that the balls were deflated; © to not reveal facts he learned about what happened from equipment managers within the organziation (d) to ignore instructions from the league office and in conjunction with club ownership to deny that no such program existed.

 

Changing a couple of words from the Bountygate report does not make the situations analogous.  The Wells report exonerates Belichick.  In contrast, the Bounty Gate investigation concluded that Payton ignored league directives and participated in the cover-up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the situations aren't analogous - The Pats cheated - the Saints didn't...

 

But certainly you can see BB committed similar offenses as per the quote you used to declare BB innocence.

 

And the report did NOT exonerate BB - It simply didn't mention him - While it's unlikely he didn't know he was certainly part of a cover-up and didn't do anything to stop it once he knew about it (assuming he didn't know prior - which is highly unlikely)  

 

Make all the excuses you want - the organization is corrupt from ownership to the Head coach to their QB all the way down to equipment managers...

 

It's a disgrace to the league and they should be punished severely.

 

So making under-the-table payments to players to willfully injure the opposition is not against NFL rules?  Gotcha.  I must have missed that. 

 

Also, I must have been reading a different Wells Report from the one you read.  The one I read clearly said the following:

 

We do not believe that the evidence establishes that any other Patriots personnel participated in or had knowledge of the violation of the Playing Rules or the deliberate effort to circumvent the rules described in this Report. "In particular, we do not believe there was any wrongdoing or knowledge of wrongdoing by Patriots ownership, Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick or any other Patriots coach in the matters investigated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL I know right? I seriously look like Joe Montana when playing with that little ball my son has.

That's part of the reason so many QB's and WRs never make the transition to the NFL level. it's not an insignificant thing changing to the NFL ball. It's real.

And if your son is using Stickum, he probably looks like Jerry Rice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Statement from Tom Brady's agent, Don Yee:

"The Wells report, with all due respect, is a significant and terrible disappointment. It’s omission of key facts and lines of inquiry suggest the investigators reached a conclusion first, and then determined so-called facts later. One item alone taints this entire report. What does it say about the league office’s protocols and ethics when it allows one team to tip it off to an issue prior to a championship game, and no league officials or game officials notified the Patriots of the same issue prior to the game? This suggests it may be more probable than not that the league cooperated with the Colts in perpetrating a sting operation. The Wells report buries this issue in a footnote on page 46 without any further elaboration. The league is a significant client of the investigators' law firm; it appears to be a rich source of billings and media exposure based on content in the law firm's website. This was not an independent investigation and the contents of the report bear that out – all one has to do is read closely and critically, as opposed to simply reading headlines. The investigators' assumptions and inferences are easily debunked or subject to multiple interpretations. Much of the report’s vulnerabilities are buried in the footnotes, which is a common legal writing tactic. It is a sad day for the league as it has abdicated the resolution of football-specific issues to people who don’t understand the context or culture of the sport. I was physically present for my client’s interview. I have verbatim notes of the interview. Tom made himself available for nearly an entire day and patiently answered every question. It was clear to me the investigators had limited understanding of professional football. For reasons unknown, the Wells report omitted nearly all of Tom’s testimony, most of which was critical because it would have provided this report with the context that it lacks. Mr. Wells promised back in January to share the results of this investigation publicly, so why not follow through and make public all of the information gathered and let the public draw its own conclusions? This report contains significant and tragic flaws, and it is common knowledge in the legal industry that reports like this generally are written for the benefit of the purchaser."

"Benefit of the purchaser"? Why would it benefit the NFL to have its biggest marquee star and dynasty team get slammed like this? And is he saying that the NFL should have accused them of cheating before the game without any evidence? And yes, the law firm was paid for their work. That is how it is done. This is really desperate stuff.

The theory is likely that by fixing the blame on Brady and others, the report insulates the league from criticism regarding its shoddy protocols and from the fact that it may have knowingly allowed balls to be used in the 1st half of the AFC championship game that were not inflated to league standards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a lawyer who has worked in BigLaw my whole career ... that theory is idiotic.  Not only would the league be better served by a report that says 'the drop in PSI is likely due to scientific factors' (which would both protect the league and Brady), but the firm has no incentive to write a report that finds Brady likely guilty.  None. 

 

 

That theory's been working in BigLaw for your whole career?  :rimshot:

 

Seriously, though, the two points are not mutually exclusive.  Wells writes a report that finds Brady likely guilty BECAUSE HE IS, yet at the same time minimizes the league's complicity in the violation.  For example, if playing with deflated footballs is such a heinous competitive violation, why, when league and field officials are on notice, and the balls mysteriously disappear from the locker room (for the first time in Walt Anderson's-19 year officiating history, no less), do the balls just get put into play in the AFCC without further testing?  I think that is a fair point that can be taken from Yee's statement (once you cut through his agenda as Brady's agent). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The text messages show that they have been doing this the entire year. sh*t, you know this has been going in for a while now, look at the fumble numbers, the cold weather games, and the home record. They aint sh*t without cheating. 

 

Well, not the entire year.  Or are you saying they cheated at home against the Jets and in the SB against the Seahawks as well? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why was Sean Payton suspended for a year for something he knew nothing about??

 

BB could very well be suspended as a result of this.  But I don't think the parallels to Payton are that strong.  From what I understand of Bounty Gate, Payton was advised by the league a couple of years earlier that there were rumors of bounties in his locker room and he did not investigate, the program was being run by his defensive coordinator with the involvement of his entire defense (as opposed to, according to the Wells report, just one player and no coaches), and Payton was implicated by the league investigation rather than exonerated.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So in essence Brady didn't turn over his phone with nothing on it which would prove his innocence because he was protecting the players union!!!! Right Tom Brady is a union guy who is protecting the other players in the league.

This is his defense??? This is a joke!!!

I am embarrassed that his counsel would choose such a defense.

Oh and I will say it again nowhere in this stream of nonsense does he say that the phone calls or lack thereof prove that Brady didn't do it!!!

Agreed. Yee just needs to stfu. My favorite is actually the last part of his "defense", which basically amounts to, "we have a bunch of material that would exonerate Brady, but we can't produce it because everyone would think that we either made it up or cherry picked it."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Patriots fans and Don Yee seem to argue that preponderance of the evidence could mean it is a 51-49 call.  But it could also mean that it was a 99-1 call as well.

 

Does anyone think that if it really was 51-49 call that Roger Goodell would have allowed this report to come out the way it did?  Anyone outside New England that is?

 

The lawyer in me overrides the Patriots fan in me on this one.  This particular spin annoys me and you are absolutely right.  

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we dispense with the whole "exonerated" thing?  They found no evidence linking Belichick to having knowledge of this practice but does anyone on the planet think that a control freak like he is would not make his business to know about everything material to the outcome of football games? 

 

Mr detail?  Mr no stone left unturned?

 

Of course Belichick knew, just like he knew about the relationship between ball pressure and rates of fumbling.

 

Big Paulie did not take phone calls personally but does anyone doubt that he knew about what was going on?  

 

This, on the other hand, is absurd.  As much as you all would like to think Belichick is some sort of omniscient video-game crime lord, this is all on Brady.  Unless you think there should be vicarious liability for all head coaches.  That's fine, but that also means Rex should have been suspended for trip-gate, Pete Carroll for the many PED violations of his players, etc., etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I think your take is 100% incorrect here.  I think all of this has very little to do with Tom Brady and his "ball preferences" at all and everything to do with fumbling statistics related to low ball pressure.

 

As a "no stone left unturned" guy I think Bill Belichick became aware of this correlation very early on, probably before many of the other coaches in the league and he realized that there was an opportunity to gain significant competitive advantage at minimal to no risk to the organization.  In other words an opportunity to juicy to pass up.

 

(I) People are probably never going to find out anyway and (II) even if they do find out we will pass it off as a QB ball preference thing... everyone does it, blah, blah, blah, everyone does it and so on and so forth.  The results are a matter of record.

 

Remind me how that correlation works?  According to the Wells report, the Patriots used balls inflated to 16 psi against the Jets.  They had no turnovers in that game. 

 

As much as I would prefer that this all be pinned on Belichick rather than Brady, it simply strains credulity to think that Belichick would dictate the details of the ball used by his franchise QB on game days. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<edited to add> Come now. This is not about one game.  It was never about one game.  Statistical averages and trends are about more than one game.  You know that, I know that and I know that you know that so let's please dispense with that kind of BS argument.  It is insulting<end of insert> 

 

Running backs and receivers have indicated a commonly held belief that lower ball pressures (particularly in cold weather conditions) make the football easier to tuck away and correspondingly harder for defenders to strip out.  Moreover, if a fumble is induced then the loose football tends to bounce around less if it has a lower pressure and therefore more would likely to be recovered by the fumbling team.

 

All perfectly reasonable and pretty plausible.  Frankly something which seems so obvious once it has been pointed out that it almost seems as if such a correlation does not even need to be proven.

 

Now we add into the mix a QB who likes a "grippier", lower-pressured ball to begin with and a league rules change in 2006-2007 which allowed teams to prepare balls for their own offense according to how their own QB likes it.  We also know for a fact that fumble statistics for the New England Patriots changed dramatically at the time this rules change went into effect.  They went from being one of a group of teams who were among the best in the league at taking care of the football to a team who were so far above everyone else it would be like a MLB hitter suddenly going from .320 to hitting .450 over night.  Barry Bonds on juice if you will.

 

Every team preaches and teaches ball security.  Every single team.

 

The obvious conclusion is that after the 2006-2007 rules change there began to be pretty compelling evidence that lower ball pressures had a marked impact on fumble rates for both receivers and running backs and the obvious conclusion being that if a team could only find a way to lower the ball pressure even further then they could expect to enjoy an even bigger turnover advantage as a result.

 

And that is what happened.

 

What I am suggesting is the Bill Belichick, the mad professor of football theory, the man who works harder at knowing more than any other coach and finding advantage in more obscure places than anyone else did not simply have this happen to his team as a happy accident one day.  I don't think the Pats feel even remotely sorry about doing it and I think they are slightly miffed that this competitive advantage may no longer be available to them.

 

Brady may end up taking one for the team here but people a missing the point.  This is about the fumbling not about the kind of ball Brady likes to throw.

 

It's not about one game, but that is one of the few games we have psi evidence of in the Wells report.  You also have Walt Anderson saying that the balls had never disappeared on his watch before in his 19 years of officiating.  Was the AFCC the first Patriots game Walt Anderson officiated?  What evidence do you have of the psi levels in other games besides the Jets and Colts games?

 

If I remember the fumble studies correctly, the Falcons (who, incidentally, were recently penalized for cheating) have the best fumble rate since the rule change.  If you eliminate dome teams from the study, there is one 4-year period of the Patriots that is off the charts first, but then another 4-year period that overlaps with 2 or 3 of the same years is tied for second with a 4-year stretch by Peyton Manning's Colts.  Not coincidentally, those are both heavy passing offenses.  The 2006-07 rule change incidentally coincides with the Pats' acquisition of Randy Moss, Welker and Donte Stallworth and their shift away from a run-first team to a pass-first team. 

 

I get that you are wedded to the Belichick as evil mastermind narrative, and that's your prerogative.  But it is such a leap for me to believe that Belichick would micromanage his franchise QB to such an unprecedented degree (and with BB confident enough to dump this at Brady's feet at the pre-SB press conference without Brady, in turn, implicating him right back) that I would need to see a lot more evidence than an oft-criticized study and conspiracy theories. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think competent investigators have means to get hold of records that have not been released to them officially.  The problem is that they cannot admit to doing that or use that evidence publicly.  I am sure they have already looked at Brady's text messages and know exactly why he will not release them.

 

Again, something we agree on.  Wells does not have that means, ergo, he must be incompetent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He has them.  He just cannot admit to having them because then he would have to explain how he got them.

 

How do you know? How did he get them? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you are not suggesting that they decided to try this out for the first time in the AFC championship game.  This is when they finally got caught.  It is much more reasonable to assume that they have been doing it for years.  Certainly it isn't any kind of moral compass that would be stopping them.  So they won the game in a rout during the 2nd half you say?  OK so what about the week before in as squeaker against the Ravens?

 

The numbers in the analysis I saw were that the Patriots rate of fumbling jumped "off the charts" exactl;y at the time of the rules changes and that in terms of just the raw numbers.  When you add in the fact that dome teams are expected to fumble less then that means that the Patriots rates of fumbling are even more outside of the norm. 

 

Did we really need to see the needle sliding into Barry Bonds' ass in order to determine that he was juicing during that time or did 73 home runs tell us all that we really needed to know?  I think we both know the answers to those questions.  The rate of fumbling simply changed too much.  It is about as legitimate as a .450 batting average.

 

The problem for Pats fans in this narrative is that the size of the competitive advantage is huge if you accept the relationship between low ball pressure and low rates of fumbling. This is the big story here.  Not what kind of balls that Brady prefers.  If you accept that such a relationship exists or even that one might exist then the notion that the most brilliant tactical football mind of his generation is unaware of it simply does not pass the smell test. 

 

Unfortunately, the improvement in fumble rates also coincides with the acquisition of Randy Moss, et al and the de-emphasis of the Patriots' running game.  Also the Colts and Patriots are atop the league in non-dome fumble rates post-rule change and their QB's during the relevant periods happen to be routinely atop the league in quickest to release the ball.  And it's not like the team fumbles a lot on ST returns either.  Brandon Tate, for example, fumbled the ball once as a returner with the Patriots, but turned into a turnover machine (11 fumbles) as a returner with the Bengals.  Are the Patriots deflating kicking balls as well?  Multiple correlations do not establish causation. 

 

Brady clearly prefers his footballs at 12.5 psi or less.  But while he may have tried every single game to get them there, he didn't always succeed.  Certainly he didn't succeed in the Jets game and got stuck using over-inflated balls.  I think he was largely at the mercy of the refs' attentiveness.  If the refs over-inflated the balls and were led by someone like Walt Anderson who apparently kept a close eye on the balls, then Brady was out of luck (if Anderson is to be believed).  So the correlation between the rule change and deflation of the balls is even weaker if there were a number of games like the (zero fumble) Jets game where the Pats had to use balls that were inflated within the rules or even over-inflated beyond the level specified by the rules.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assume that investigators with enough money can get pretty much any information of this type if they are prepared to be unscrupulous enough

 

OK, but you realize that this is tin foil hat/grassy knoll territory.  We are talking about a highly-respected law firm that stands to gain several million of dollars in fees no matter what the report says and that has no subpoena power whatsoever.  You are willing to assume that that firm will stake its reputation (and the law licenses of its lawyers) by paying off a Verizon employee or doing something else illicit just to obtain information that they cannot share with anyone outside the firm? 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are referring to the Sharp analysis of fumble rates, I believe that excluded kickoffs and punts. Only fumbles during offensive snaps were counted. 

 

The Sharp site is blocked at my office for some reason, so I can't check, but I believe he used kickoffs/punts as part of his "look at what a bunch of butterfingers these guys turn into when they leave the Patriots" analysis.   Obviously if Brandon Tate suddenly is coughing up kicking balls after leaving the Patriots, it suggests that factors other than the inflation/deflation of the balls are contributing to the fumble rates.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't recall exactly in what context I saw Sharp state that he looked at only fumbles during offensive plays, but I did send him an email saying I thought it would be better to include all fumbles. I am pretty sure though it was where he presented a graph showing the Pats sticking out like a sore thumb relative to all other NFL teams.

 

I remember that as well (once you exclude the Falcons) but I think it was only for one particular 5-year period since 2006 (say, 2010-14).  When he moved the 5-year period back a year (to, say, 2009-2013) then the Pats and the Colts had virtually identical fumble rates. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bedard saying that the Pats are "keeping score" with reporters right now, and that there will be consequences for slamming the organization moving forward. Pretty much pointing the finger directly at Tom Curran.

 

What, Belichick is going to share even less information now?  Talk about an empty threat.  And I thought Curran has been relatively pro-Patriots through this? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Bedard is pointing to Curran as a guy who's kowtowing to the Pats, similar to the way Isola calls out his colleagues on the Knicks beat for homerism.

 

Ah, got it.  I misunderstood the Curran reference.  Thanks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hate to break it to ya,son, but this "once in a generation player" you speak of has been living a lie since 2001. only thing brady is great at is doing what he is told and cheating. put aside the fact that brady was told exactly what defense he was looking at on every play, compliments of spygate, he also knew where to throw the ball, via the eye in the sky, where he was in constant communication with someone in the box telling him which receiver to throw to.helmet communication that never shut off. basically a man made qb, remote control robot,if you will. by the time spygate hit, brady was already a master of his craft, no longer needing the remore control. if it was ever proven, brady would be banned for life, as would belichek

Cool. It's been a long time since I've heard the Spygate "Tecmo Bowl" theory. Glad to see that it is still alive and well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  



Content Partnership

Yes Network

Site Sponsor

MILE-Social - NJ Social Media & SEO company
×
×
  • Create New...