JohnnyLV Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 If I'm Brady's attorney? I call every living NFL QB to the stand and ask them if they ever doctored balls. Somewhere in this quagmire lies the fact that this "tampering" with footballs has been, and is, commonplace. BS. Complete and utter BS. Not to the level Brady and the Patriots did. They are allowed to rough up and prepare the balls, they are not allowed to intentionally deflate them for an unfair advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Harper Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Thats what I dont get. Doesnt the appeal lead to further investigation. Is he now going to cooperate? Feel like he might be opening himself up to more scrutiny and potential evidence. Appeals in civil matters do not usually involve new evidence but are limited to the record below. If the NFL appeals are different and he could be asked for his phone, they could embarass him. I doubt that happens. But doesn't it seem like a matter of course that they reduce these suspensions by at least one game? I would have liked to have seen at least 6 games, but the draft picks are what make me happy. Who knows, they could have used that first to draft Brady's replacement (he ain't getting any younger). And with Brady gone for part of the year and no secondary, this could be the highest first round pick they have had in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchmemory Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 BS. Complete and utter BS. Not to the level Brady and the Patriots did. They are allowed to rough up and prepare the balls, they are not allowed to intentionally deflate them for an unfair advantage. I don't care about Brady. Let him rot or get thrown to the wolves as a sacrificial lamb. What has bothered me throughout this process is that equipment people have always doctored balls for QBs. I want that truth put out there by the sanctimonious Goodell, who is the real scumbag in this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Mostro Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 If I'm Brady's attorney? I call every living NFL QB to the stand and ask them if they ever doctored balls. Somewhere in this quagmire lies the fact that this "tampering" with footballs has been, and is, commonplace. Irrelevant. The only issue at hand is whether Brady and the Pats* breached the rules. Plain and simple proposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Harper Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 If I'm Brady's attorney? I call every living NFL QB to the stand and ask them if they ever doctored balls. Somewhere in this quagmire lies the fact that this "tampering" with footballs has been, and is, commonplace. Not ususally any testimony on appeals, although this procedure could be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchmemory Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Irrelevant. The only issue at hand is whether Brady and the Pats* breached the rules. Plain and simple proposition. Fine. Adjudicate that first. But I want to know from former QBs and equipment people--past and present--how prevalent it is for QBs to take some pressure out of balls. In that way, we have perspective and truth. From day one, this entire "inflate gate" has not added up to me. I'm supposed to believe that a defensive back is able to discern a one pound difference in a ball? Give me a fukkin' break. Not ususally any testimony on appeals, although this procedure could be different. Thanks, sir. Appreciate the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 It is up to Goodell whether he handles the appeal or it will go to outside arbitrator. Brady defense- all circumstance evidence- They'll get some liberal arbitrator who was an old union lawyer. Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Fan RI Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Honestly, on what grounds will he appeal? He cheated, lied, obstructed the investigation and tried to cover it up...There's no way around any of those facts, any appeal would just make things worse. How about claiming the technical part of the investigation was flawed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Fan RI Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 His agent hinted at one of them during one of the stops on his pathetic tour-de-outrage. The argument is that if the NFL doesn't have subpoena power over its players, they can't create de facto subpoena power by punishing players for not turning over information that could otherwise only be obtained via subpoena. Subpoena is only needed if a player fails to cooperate with an investigation. Brady's punishment is partially based on that failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFCEastFan Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Subpoena is only needed if a player fails to cooperate with an investigation. Brady's punishment is partially based on that failure. Yes, and the argument is that the league's ability to punish a player for failing to cooperate with an investigation should not be tantamount to the exercise of subpoena power that the league does not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Fan RI Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Yes, and the argument is that the league's ability to punish a player for failing to cooperate with an investigation should not be tantamount to the exercise of subpoena power that the league does not have. The argument is weak. With no subpoena power, anyone who is requested to be interviewed in an investigation could refuse based on the league not having subpoena power. Based on your argument, the league could levy no punishment for failing to appear for such an interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFCEastFan Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 The argument is weak. With no subpoena power, anyone who is requested to be interviewed in an investigation could refuse based on the league not having subpoena power. Based on your argument, the league could levy no punishment for failing to appear for such an interview. It's Don Yee's argument. I think it's dumb because it is a diversion from the real issues, but the argument itself does have some technical merit. The response to your point, the argument would go, is "damn right they can't . . . that's the whole point . . . one of the few battles the union won in the latest CBA is that the league would not get subpoena power . . . now you're going to take that negotiated result away from them by giving the league a back-door subpoena right through this failure to cooperate nonsense?" Again, that's the argument. Edit: The example you gave is a little trickier because it blurs the line between the player as team employee and the player as a private individual. Clearly, the team is obligated to produce its own employees for interviews just as it was obligated to produce (and got sanctioned for not producing) McNally. And obviously if the team owned Brady's phone, he would have had to produce his phone (just as the equipment guys had to). But since we are talking about Brady's personal phone, Yee's argument has the greatest logical force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 one of the few battles the union won in the latest CBA is that the league would not get subpoena power What section of the CBA is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustiniak Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I was listening to Mad Dog Sports this morning and the guy loves the Pats. He said there was no evidence to suspend etc.... He believes absolutely that the suspension will be at least reduced and even eliminated. However, a good question is; How does Brady defend himself without opening himself up to more scrutiny? Is his lawyer just going to say, "He didn't do it and you have no proof" the line of attack is probably, that the wells investigation is flawed, and that brady was more cooperative than reported. the problems he has, is that he's already been proven as a liar, saying he didn't know certain people when texts prove otherwise, and that he didn't hand over the phone even while his attorneys can watch the review. goodell had a real rough year last year for being lenient, and now the super bowl champions have been proven to cheat. i wouldn't be surprised if the suspension isn't reduced. the nfl needs to show they're not allowing cheating - and winning the superbowl - to be allowed without consequences. the fines/draft pick losses/suspensions are as much about deterring future behavior as the transgressions themselves. the nfl has a huge image problem and now the nfl mvp is in the middle of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Fan RI Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 It's Don Yee's argument. I think it's dumb because it is a diversion from the real issues, but the argument itself does have some technical merit. The response to your point, the argument would go, is "damn right they can't . . . that's the whole point . . . one of the few battles the union won in the latest CBA is that the league would not get subpoena power . . . now you're going to take that negotiated result away from them by giving the league a back-door subpoena right through this failure to cooperate nonsense?" Again, that's the argument. Edit: The example you gave is a little trickier because it blurs the line between the player as team employee and the player as a private individual. Clearly, the team is obligated to produce its own employees for interviews just as it was obligated to produce (and got sanctioned for not producing) McNally. And obviously if the team owned Brady's phone, he would have had to produce his phone (just as the equipment guys had to). But since we are talking about Brady's personal phone, Yee's argument has the greatest logical force. I think you may be interpreting things too broadly. Yes, the league does not have subpoena power. But it does have the ability to levy penalties based on its rules. Otherwise, the league would be entirely neutered in its abilities to enforce the rules. To say penalties levied for failure to cooperate with an investigation are defacto subpoena powers is too broad of an interpretation and, taken literally, would completely neuter the league's enforcement powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 If I'm Brady's attorney? I call every living NFL QB to the stand and ask them if they ever doctored balls. Somewhere in this quagmire lies the fact that this "tampering" with footballs has been, and is, commonplace. So is fibbing on your taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Lonelyhearts Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Haha I don't know. I'm a lawyer, but because evidentiary standards between an actual court of law and the NFL's CBA (which I haven't even read aside from the salary cap ramifications) are SO different, I couldn't even begin to make a prediction. It really isn't an issue of evidentiary standards. Whether it's judicial, administrative, internal, or whatever else, you basically always have to have some kind of extenuating circumstance to supplement the underlying record on appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 This appeal and uproar is by no means about the 4 games or draft picks....This is about legacy. This is about Tom's ego, Kraft's ego and of course BB's massive ego. Getting it dropped from 4 to 2 is NOT their goal - even if they KNOW it won't decrease the suspension in any way they are going to fight it as hard as they can for as long as they can...So they can say we didn't do it, we fought against it...Ultimately Kraft is still fighting for his apology. The evidence is overwhelming yet they are still claiming innocence, set-up, fraud - anything to discredit a report that is cut and dry. This is AROD and Armstrong. How did those two end up? The more they fight the worse it's going to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyLV Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Brady can really only fight this to a point. Kessler will likely want to sue, as he always does, but if they do then evidentiary procedures would kick in and his phone and e-mail records could be subpoenaed and clearly there are things about deflate gate he does not want seem...sueing in this case could make things much worse for both Brady and the Patriots....question becomes whether Goodell will use an independent arbitrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcat Posted May 13, 2015 Author Share Posted May 13, 2015 Over at Patsfans.hopeless homers, they seriously believe that hiring the lawyer will vindicate them. Starting to feel sorry for them. They are delusional. No way Brady and Belicheat let this go to court. Subpoena power in place ----> turn over phone and other records ------> will implicate others (Belichick perhaps) who are so far not implicated. Subpoena power in place ----> will depose the ball deflators themselves and get sworn testimony from them ----> no way do the cheating duo, Brady and Belicheat, want that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greensince69 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Over at Patsfans.hopeless homers, they seriously believe that hiring the lawyer will vindicate them. Starting to feel sorry for them. They are delusional. No way Brady and Belicheat let this go to court. Subpoena power in place ----> turn over phone and other records ------> will implicate others (Belichick perhaps) who are so far not implicated. Subpoena power in place ----> will depose the ball deflators themselves and get sworn testimony from them ----> no way do the cheating duo, Brady and Belicheat, want that to happen. I can not wait till the deflators take 100k from TMZ and really give the whole story, just how long this has been going on and what a real pompous dick Brady is. Oh Tom, You need to know the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 It's Don Yee's argument. I think it's dumb because it is a diversion from the real issues, but the argument itself does have some technical merit. The response to your point, the argument would go, is "damn right they can't . . . that's the whole point . . . one of the few battles the union won in the latest CBA is that the league would not get subpoena power . . . now you're going to take that negotiated result away from them by giving the league a back-door subpoena right through this failure to cooperate nonsense?" Again, that's the argument. Edit: The example you gave is a little trickier because it blurs the line between the player as team employee and the player as a private individual. Clearly, the team is obligated to produce its own employees for interviews just as it was obligated to produce (and got sanctioned for not producing) McNally. And obviously if the team owned Brady's phone, he would have had to produce his phone (just as the equipment guys had to). But since we are talking about Brady's personal phone, Yee's argument has the greatest logical force. The lack of subpoena power is not a valid argument because all it means is that the NFL cannot compel the production of evidence. It doesn't give the other side immunity from being viewed negatively for failing to cooperate. People need to remember that this is still a civil rather than a criminal matter. In criminal cases, for example, a witness can "Plead the Fifth" and it cannot be used against him. In a civil case, however, "Pleading the Fifth" can absolutely be used against the witness and create an inference of guilt. That is settled law in civil cases. So, although Brady had every right not to cooperate with the investigation, the NFL had every right to treat that non-cooperation as inferring guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pac Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 At this stage of the game it's really a moot point. I don't care if his suspension is reduced or even overturned. He's been exposed on a national stage and that stigma will forever follow him and the Patriots. Their Championships are tarnished and everyone other than Pats fans roll their eyes when discussing their latest SB victory. It's sweet vindication. I don't care if Brady exhumes the corpse of Johnny Cochran - no lawyer is going to be able to undo the damage. The perception will forever be that Brady is a cheat and the Pats are kind of a joke. Check mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustiniak Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 At this stage of the game it's really a moot point. I don't care if his suspension is reduced or even overturned. He's been exposed on a national stage and that stigma will forever follow him and the Patriots. Their Championships are tarnished and everyone other than Pats fans roll their eyes when discussing their latest SB victory. It's sweet vindication. I don't care if Brady exhumes the corpse of Johnny Cochran - no lawyer is going to be able to undo the damage. The perception will forever be that Brady is a cheat and the Pats are kind of a joke. Check mate. these penalties need to stand. if brady uses high profile lawyers to get rid of his ban, the basically, it sends a message to the other 31 teams that didn't win the super bowl that cheating is perfectly ok b/c the nfl is powerless to punish it. just don't take drugs or beat women - but if you want to steal footballs and mess with them, that's perfectly ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GREENBEAN Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 What I wanna know is if his suspension can be increased upon appeal. I was hoping it'd start at the 8-10 game range, and get chiseled down to maybe six from there. Four is light, and he should be happy with it. Also be interesting if new evidence could implicate others *coughBelicheatcough* Troy Vincent handled the first round, maybe just so Goodell could handle the appeal. Part of the punishment was allegedly because Brady -and the entire Patriots organization- failed to fully comply with the investigation. Don't see how they could even consider being more lenient with Brady without him turning over his phone. I think that's where it would get interesting. There's not a single doubt in my mind that he was in communication with Belichick and Kraft while he was texting the locker room guys. Love to see what those texts say. All of which is why I don't see his appeal having any success. It's already too short, and he's not going to cooperate. I thought it was an un biased arbitrator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Over at Patsfans.hopeless homers, they seriously believe that hiring the lawyer will vindicate them. Starting to feel sorry for them. They are delusional. No way Brady and Belicheat let this go to court. Subpoena power in place ----> turn over phone and other records ------> will implicate others (Belichick perhaps) who are so far not implicated. Subpoena power in place ----> will depose the ball deflators themselves and get sworn testimony from them ----> no way do the cheating duo, Brady and Belicheat, want that to happen. I tend to disagree here only because I don't believe they're acting rationally in any way. No rational person would take this to court, but they are so caught up in their lie that they just might. The evidence is overwhelming yet they continue to deny, continue to get support from both their fan base and a large portion of the media. If they deny it enough people will start to believe it, if they claim set-up enough people will start to buy into it. It's all part of a strategy that will likely take this as far as they possibly can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Had Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/13/a-j-feeley-says-he-witnessed-patriots-use-doctored-footballs/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFCEastFan Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 The lack of subpoena power is not a valid argument because all it means is that the NFL cannot compel the production of evidence. It doesn't give the other side immunity from being viewed negatively for failing to cooperate. People need to remember that this is still a civil rather than a criminal matter. In criminal cases, for example, a witness can "Plead the Fifth" and it cannot be used against him. In a civil case, however, "Pleading the Fifth" can absolutely be used against the witness and create an inference of guilt. That is settled law in civil cases. So, although Brady had every right not to cooperate with the investigation, the NFL had every right to treat that non-cooperation as inferring guilt. I agree with this, but my point is that if the league has no subpoena power, then it cannot (or it should not be able to) treat Brady's refusal to turn over his personal cell phone as a violation of the league's policy requiring cooperation with investigations. That would give the league a de facto subpoena right that apparently was not bargained for in the CBA. I agree that the league can draw any adverse inference it wants about the underlying violation (ie deflation) as a result of Brady's non-cooperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack48 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 an appeal usually introduces new evidence or disproves old evidence. If it does not do that, it merely questions the judgment of the "judge." I don't see the league undermining their "judge." And I don't see Brady turning over the pertinent media as a means to exonerating himself It would probably get him in deeper. So he will appeal by asking Uncle Goodie not to be such a meanie?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 I would love it if it got to a point where Goodell was so upset with Kraft and the Pats that he has a Jack Nicholson "A Few Good Men" moment and spills all the beans from SpyGate up till now. Lets everything out of the bag just as a final **** you to the Pats for so blatantly putting the NFL in the situation where they have to defend the cheatriots over and over again even after Goodell helped them out the first time by completely destroying the spygate evidence. That would be ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriotReign37 Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 The league's image is totally in the sh*tter right now, precisely because of its handling of disciplinary issues. I'd bet Goodell goes the independent arbitrator route just to save face, in which case all of this may be thrown out, and probably will be, because **** us. Youre dead on about the image of the league, but the case wont be thrown out. The Pats are screwed. Preponderance of evidence is enough to levy suspensions and fines and has been since 2008 when it won a 51% to 49% vote. Not cooperating with any league investigation is conduct considered detrimental to the NFL and worthy of punishment. If the Pats are truly being wronged here and don't fight back, Im done as their fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetcane Redux Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 At this stage of the game it's really a moot point. .. I don't care if his suspension is reduced or even overturned. The perception will forever be that Brady is a cheat and the Pats are kind of a joke. Check mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brown Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 If I'm Brady's attorney? I call every living NFL QB to the stand and ask them if they ever doctored balls. Somewhere in this quagmire lies the fact that this "tampering" with footballs has been, and is, commonplace. No it is not COMMON PLACE The fact is every QB questioned said they never even thought of doing such a thing!!! When Manning deflated a football to test it he said WOW WHAT A BIG DIFFERENCE!!!! Please listen to what former NFL QB and Pats Ball Boy Hasselbeck said about this: http://mynorthwest.com/422/2758419/ESPNs-Hasselbeck-weighs-in-on-Deflategate-report-fair-discipline No not everyone does it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeaniec Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Here's what I think may happen if this matter goes to trial. 1) The trial postponed and will not begin until Brady forfeits some games if not all four. 2) The phone Brady used is gone and replaced with a new cell. The excuse? Updated for a newer model 3) The equipment men will tell the truth on the stand 4) Brady will not tell the truth and be subject to perjury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFCEastFan Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 No it is not COMMON PLACE The fact is every QB questioned said they never even thought of doing such a thing!!! When Manning deflated a football to test it he said WOW WHAT A BIG DIFFERENCE!!!! Please listen to what former NFL QB and Pats Ball Boy Hasselbeck said about this: http://mynorthwest.com/422/2758419/ESPNs-Hasselbeck-weighs-in-on-Deflategate-report-fair-discipline No not everyone does it....... Jeff Blake has said the exact opposite, FWIW. "I'm just going to let the cat of the bag, every team does it, every game, it has been since I played," Blake said. "'Cause when you take the balls out of the bag, they are rock hard. And you can't feel the ball as well. It's too hard. Everybody puts the pin in and lets just enough air out of the ball that you can feel it a little better. But it's not the point to where it's flat. So I don't know what the big deal is. It's not something that's not been done for 20 years." http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12244290/ex-quarterback-jeff-blake-deflating-footballs-common Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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