Jet Nut Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Eli Manning threw 48 TD's in his first 2 full seasons as a starter, 24 each season. Plus 6 in his rookie season when he started the final 7 games. Geno Smith has thrown 25 TD's TOTAL in his 2 seasons. The upside for Eli was established pretty nicely even early in his career. For every boneheaded mistake he also had several moments where he looked the part of a franchise QB and could put points on the board. Basically he looked like he could become a poor man's Favre. It's not the worst thing to establish yourself as a gunslinger IF you can make up for the turnovers with a bunch of scoring drives. It's how Romo has carved out a solid career as well. Neither will or ever have been known as elite QB's, but they're certainly franchise guys. Geno has displayed nothing close to Eli Manning's ceiling his first 2 years in the league. If he did, the turnovers would be far more acceptable. His upside is putting up something like 24 points in a game, which is not terrific in this league. His downside is looking completely lost and costing us games. Eli in his first season was surrounded by big time offensive talent. He had Tiki Barber, Brandon Jacobs, Shockey, Toomer and Plax. It's not even close. Please don't say it means nothing and isn't an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Eli in his first season was surrounded by big time offensive talent. He had Tiki Barber, Brandon Jacobs, Shockey, Toomer and Plax. It's not even close. Please don't say it means nothing and isn't an excuse. Nearly twice as many TD's as Geno. That doesn't get fully explained away by the difference in weapons. Eli's level of bad his first 2 years isn't really close to Geno's level of bad, yet he's wrongly listed as the posterboy for every QB who struggles early in his career. The fallacy of that argument was the point I was making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Nearly twice as many TD's as Geno. That doesn't get fully explained away by the difference in weapons. Eli's level of bad his first 2 years isn't really close to Geno's level of bad, yet he's wrongly listed as the posterboy for every QB who struggles early in his career. The fallacy of that argument was the point I was making. Eli was the first pick in the draft. He should've been better right from the start. People holding out hope for Geno would do better looking at Drew Brees' first few seasons. Geno's numbers are better than Brees', even after Brees enjoyed a rookie season on the bench. Geno improved in his second year as a starter while Brees regressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Eli was the first pick in the draft. He should've been better right from the start. People holding out hope for Geno would do better looking at Drew Brees' first few seasons. Geno's numbers are better than Brees', even after Brees enjoyed a rookie season on the bench. Geno improved in his second year as a starter while Brees regressed. True. Brees was a 2nd rounder too. If only Geno could have Brian Schottenheimer as his QB coach! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powpow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Geno lovers. There are no Geno lovers. There are people who understand that the new regime's plan is to put Geno Smith in the best position to succeed, and then go from there. That's about it. They see the best case scenario as being Geno Smith getting it. Pretty simple. And that is the best case scenario. Ryan Fitzpatrick isn't taking this team to the promised land this year or any year in the future (not that I have Geno pencilled in for Super Bowl MVP any time soon, either, but he wins the battle of upside against Fitzpatrick). Unable to upgrade the QB position in their first offseason, their intention is to go with the QB on their roster who has the most upside. If he's terrible, he'll be benched. And there won't be any Geno lovers complaining about it. We'll all ride it out with Fitzpatrick, and become Petty lovers, instead. The only getting it Geno will be getting is getting lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powpow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 geno stinks and will forever stink. some of us don't need 3 years, and seeing him in the perfect situation to realize this. jets will have a dominant defense and a decent running game. a QB that limits mistakes is exactly what this team needs absent a franchise QB. i want to see the bowles era kick off on the right foot rather than live through another hot-seat HC situation when geno sucks eggs this year and then next year we win 5 games breaking in a rookie QB or petty. i want to see wins this year. i don't want to see another top 5 defense squandered. fitzpatrick is clearly the better choice. I would give this two post ups if I could so here's 5 stars instead ***** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powpow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Eli was the first pick in the draft. He should've been better right from the start. People holding out hope for Geno would do better looking at Drew Brees' first few seasons. Geno's numbers are better than Brees', even after Brees enjoyed a rookie season on the bench. Geno improved in his second year as a starter while Brees regressed. Sounds like a love fest for Geno you ask me. Hard NOT to improve each year after such atrocious play inhis first two. Really hard. Improvement is not the aim Winning, performing, not turning the ball over, getting crucial 3rd downs, scoring td's in the red zone, etc etc etc that's what is truly indicative of progress. Seeing Geno progress is like watching a turtle cross a road. Brees was not in an ideal situation with the Chargers who had little faith in him. They preferred Eli and never got over being jilted by him. How you can compare Smith to Brees is not cutting it. Its clear to see Smith doesn't have half the skill set a young Brees possessed. Yet, you continue to play both sides of the fence regarding this scrub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage69 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Eli was the first pick in the draft. He should've been better right from the start. People holding out hope for Geno would do better looking at Drew Brees' first few seasons. Geno's numbers are better than Brees', even after Brees enjoyed a rookie season on the bench. Geno improved in his second year as a starter while Brees regressed. Geno's first 2 years as a starter was 25 tds and 34 picks Bree's was 28 tds and 31 picks regression or not. However I agree in year 3 as a starter Bree's was 27 tds and 7 picks if Geno does close to that the Jets make the playoffs this season..It took 3 years for the light to come on for Bree's maybe Gee-No becomes Gee-Yes in 2015.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Nearly twice as many TD's as Geno. That doesn't get fully explained away by the difference in weapons. Eli's level of bad his first 2 years isn't really close to Geno's level of bad, yet he's wrongly listed as the posterboy for every QB who struggles early in his career. The fallacy of that argument was the point I was making. If you have no one to catch the ball you're going to have low TD numbers. Has nothing to do with degree of horrible. Genos WRs aren't close to Shockey, Plax, Toomer and Barber. M Eli's first season, don't know how you throw out his first season, he had a 55 QB rating. This was after sitting half the season to learn the game. That's worse than Genos rookie year. To compare year two of Eli, two seasons of camp, video, playbook, etc, etc to a,rookie year isn't fair either. Especially when you compound it by then comparing Eli's third to Genos second. To quite apple to apples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powpow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 If you have no one to catch the ball you're going to have low TD numbers. Has nothing to do with degree of horrible. Genos WRs aren't close to Shockey, Plax, Toomer and Barber. M Eli's first season, don't know how you throw out his first season, he had a 55 QB rating. This was after sitting half the season to learn the game. That's worse than Genos rookie year. To compare year two of Eli, two seasons of camp, video, playbook, etc, etc to a,rookie year isn't fair either. Especially when you compound it by then comparing Eli's third to Genos second. To quite apple to apples. Smith SUCKS. How you like them apples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Smith SUCKS. How you like them apples? Wow,you're deep. Talking about Eli. And comparing what he had and what he did to Geno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Wow,you're deep. Talking about Eli. And comparing what he had and what he did to Geno. What I love about the Geno-hatred crowd is they offer no legitimate alternatives other than cut Geno f him. Hoyer - terrible Locker - retired Bradford - very close to retiring and dr says his knee isn't close to 100% Moore - terrible Petty - give me a break Fitz is on the roster and absolutely still can be the starting qb if he outperforms Geno in TC and preseason. What else are we supposed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powpow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Wow,you're deep. Talking about Eli. And comparing what he had and what he did to Geno. He still sucks. Often, it goes the other way around. The QB MAKES the wr successful. Many 'proven' wr's have left teams with franchise qb's only to become 'average' wr's. Enough of these empty excuses. The only thing standing in the way of post season success for this team is Geno Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powpow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 What I love about the Geno-hatred crowd is they offer no legitimate alternatives other than cut Geno f him. Hoyer - terrible Locker - retired Bradford - very close to retiring and dr says his knee isn't close to 100% Moore - terrible Petty - give me a break Fitz is on the roster and absolutely still can be the starting qb if he outperforms Geno in TC and preseason. What else are we supposed to do? I agree doc which is why I am aghast Mac didn't do something. Pull a wabbit out the hat if you have to but do something NOW. With Smith as their starter this year, this team will be better. How can it not be. Without a franchise QB the best the CS are hoping is Smith being a game manager, which is he is not. He's more like a Sanchez type QB tease. We've been down this road before. End it sooner rather than later and spare me the grief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 He still sucks. Often, it goes the other way around. The QB MAKES the wr successful. Many 'proven' wr's have left teams with franchise qb's only to become 'average' wr's. Enough of these empty excuses. The only thing standing in the way of post season success for this team is Geno Smith. No, anywhere will claim that Genos WRs have been as good as Tiki, Toomer, Plaxico, Shockey etc., it's not even close. Don't even think of selling Eli would have turned Salas and whatever into this level of player. That's stupid and not an excuse. Kill him for what he lacks don't make ridiculous arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdetroit Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I agree doc which is why I am aghast Mac didn't do something. Pull a wabbit out the hat if you have to but do something NOW. With Smith as their starter this year, this team will be better. How can it not be. Without a franchise QB the best the CS are hoping is Smith being a game manager, which is he is not. He's more like a Sanchez type QB tease. We've been down this road before. End it sooner rather than later and spare me the grief. I'm hoping for 8-8 or 9-7 this year and then go after Peyton after the broncos cut him next offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelticwizard Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 It seems to me that Geno still has time to prove himself, but at some point you need to move on. So I ask the Geno defenders, what is a fair amount of time? Because I don't think it is fair for the franchise, players or fans for him to get an unlimited amount of time to improve. I'd say he has to show steady progress his first four to six games. If he's awful, he might be gone by the third game. If he's just mediocre, he'll probably last six games. If he comes through and shows he is taking control of the team and leads the team with his arm on a few games, then he's got a genuine shot of starting next year and improving some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 No, anywhere will claim that Genos WRs have been as good as Tiki, Toomer, Plaxico, Shockey etc., it's not even close. Don't even think of selling Eli would have turned Salas and whatever into this level of player. That's stupid and not an excuse. Kill him for what he lacks don't make ridiculous arguments. so basically, it is impossible to say anything negative about him at all because you can just fall back on his supporting cast. that's a convenient way to avoid any uncomfortable facts or statistics that disagree with you. well how about this. if you can "just tell" that he would be good with a better cast, I can "just tell" that he doesn't have "it" and never well. this is called a mexican standoff I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 What I love about the Geno-hatred crowd is they offer no legitimate alternatives other than cut Geno f him. No point in cutting Geno whatsoever. Young, cheap QB's should be kept on the roster until their contracts expire or better options come available. You can do a lot worse than Geno as a # 2. I just don't like him as the # 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 so basically, it is impossible to say anything negative about him at all because you can just fall back on his supporting cast. that's a convenient way to avoid any uncomfortable facts or statistics that disagree with you. well how about this. if you can "just tell" that he would be good with a better cast, I can "just tell" that he doesn't have "it" and never well. this is called a mexican standoff I guess. Meanwhile Geno's weapons got significantly better last season with the additions of Decker (14 games), Harvin (8 games) and Amaro (13 games), and Kerley being healthy for a full season. Yet when it comes to his supposed "progress", where he went from a 66.5 QB rating to a whopping 77.5, had just 1 more TD throw than the 2013 season, and had the same YPA of 6.9, we're not allowed to attribute THAT to his improvement in weapons. The pro-Geno crowd would love to have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Meanwhile Geno's weapons got significantly better last season with the additions of Decker (14 games), Harvin (8 games) and Amaro (13 games), and Kerley being healthy for a full season. Yet when it comes to his supposed "progress", where he went from a 66.5 QB rating to a whopping 77.5, had just 1 more TD throw than the 2013 season, and had the same YPA of 6.9, we're not allowed to attribute THAT to his improvement in weapons. The pro-Geno crowd would love to have it both ways. Exactly. Geno got better. You're finally catching on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Exactly. Geno got better. You're finally catching on. Improving from horrific to slightly less horrific somehow doesn't impress me. I have a bit higher expectations than that out of the most important position on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Exactly. Geno got better. You're finally catching on. poop smells a little less after it dries out a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Improving from horrific to slightly less horrific somehow doesn't impress me. I have a bit higher expectations than that out of the most important position on the field. Key word: "improving". And you the only person who expects better. The only. One and only. Only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Key word: "improving". And you the only person who expects better. The only. One and only. Only. Excuse me for having higher standards out of a QB. We've had bottom 5 QB play each of the last 6 years. Much like with women, I refuse to settle for anything less than great. Nothing in Geno Smith screams future greatness or even an above average QB. And no, Fitz is not in that category either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 so basically, it is impossible to say anything negative about him at all because you can just fall back on his supporting cast. that's a convenient way to avoid any uncomfortable facts or statistics that disagree with you. well how about this. if you can "just tell" that he would be good with a better cast, I can "just tell" that he doesn't have "it" and never well. this is called a mexican standoff I guess. No, you can still look at a QB and see what he has or needs help with. You can recognize talent with your eyes. It's done all the time. You just can't be a lazy ass who quotes numbers without taking into account his team and the talent around him. Nowhere does it say you can't criticize his play. That someone doesn't realize this is telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Excuse me for having higher standards out of a QB. We've had bottom 5 QB play each of the last 6 years. Much like with women, I refuse to settle for anything less than great. Nothing in Geno Smith screams future greatness or even an above average QB. And no, Fitz is not in that category either. You can refuse all you want but you're just watching on a TV and posting in a forum, bub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Meanwhile Geno's weapons got significantly better last season with the additions of Decker (14 games), Harvin (8 games) and Amaro (13 games), and Kerley being healthy for a full season. Yet when it comes to his supposed "progress", where he went from a 66.5 QB rating to a whopping 77.5, had just 1 more TD throw than the 2013 season, and had the same YPA of 6.9, we're not allowed to attribute THAT to his improvement in weapons. The pro-Geno crowd would love to have it both ways. Harvins addition along with Decker on the field somewhat healthy are part of why you saw his numbers go up after his benching. I've said this all along, as have others. His first season and games before Harvin he had an injured Decker and little else to throw to. Oh and that 77.5 QB rating by Geno, took Eli five seasons to better it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 You can refuse all you want but you're just watching on a TV and posting in a forum, bub. So are you. Doesn't make either of our points any less valid. It's just a slow news month in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 So are you. Doesn't make either of our points any less valid. It's just a slow news month in the NFL. Ok, well, what are you going to do about your refusal that wont matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 No, you can still look at a QB and see what he has or needs help with. You can recognize talent with your eyes. It's done all the time. You just can't be a lazy ass who quotes numbers without taking into account his team and the talent around him. Nowhere does it say you can't criticize his play. That someone doesn't realize this is telling. I can recognize lack of talent with my eyes also; that is what people are saying. They are using their eyes to tell them Geno doesn't have the It Factor necessary to be an average or above average QB. How is this any different or more lazy than someone saying they believe he does have the skills, just hasn't delivered due to poor surrounding cast? It is two sides of the same coin. Doesn't make sense to disparage the other side for engaging in the same level of analysis--essentially an eye-test for both camps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Ok, well, what are you going to do about your refusal that wont matter? Continue to post truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I can recognize lack of talent with my eyes also; that is what people are saying. They are using their eyes to tell them Geno doesn't have the It Factor necessary to be an average or above average QB. How is this any different or more lazy than someone saying they believe he does have the skills, just hasn't delivered due to poor surrounding cast? It is two sides of the same coin. Doesn't make sense to disparage the other side for engaging in the same level of analysis--essentially an eye-test for both camps. All I did was say to someone that you have to take into account who Eli had on the Giants when comparing numbers. still am. You're all over the place spinning this to keep going on about Geno and why he sucks. I keep saying it's more than numbers. And it's certainly not some weird it factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Excuse me for having higher standards out of a QB. We've had bottom 5 QB play each of the last 6 years. Much like with women, I refuse to settle for anything less than great. Nothing in Geno Smith screams future greatness or even an above average QB. And no, Fitz is not in that category either. You can refuse all you want but you're just watching on a TV and posting in a forum, bub. Much like with women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Much like with women? I don't post in a forum while watching the womens on the TV. At least not immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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