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One more QB thread; who would you rather? Sanchez/Smith


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I was not paying too much attention to the Giants then since I was a kid, but I don't recall hearing that Simms was afraid to throw the ball.

I mean I understand that Sanchez had excuses. The receivers were not in the right place most of the time, but you still need to throw them open. You can't stare them down waiting until after they're open to throw it. You may as well just give up. Which is what he did.

Look at Brady the beginning of last year. He kept on those receivers until they started to get it. That's what Sanchez should have done.

 

Teams didn't throw on every down back then, but he sure looked shellshocked.  I didn't care, I just booed him, but my Dad is always saying how scared and timid he was.  They didn't bench him for Scott Brunner because he was hanging tough.

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Harbaugh was the HC when Baltimore cut Mason, not Billick....Billick was fired at least 3 years before Mason was cut. Mason left on good terms from at least what was reported, it was for salary reasons, plus he was 37 years old, but he was great for them while he was a Raven.

Here's an article on Mason being cut: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/909306

Now he was terrible in his short stint as a Jet, that goes without saying as it only lasted a handful of games. However Mason wasn't brought in to be an upgrade over Cotchery, it wasn't "Plan A". The Jets brought in Mason after Cotchery asked for his release because he wanted to be a starter and was upset when they brought in Plaxico to replace Braylon, plus it was reported Cotch didn't like dealing with the diva group of WRs on the team led by Holmes (can't blame the guy for that).

I hope Tannenbaum did all he could to convince Cotchery to stay before he granted his request to be released since he was a big part of our success the past couple years, so you can definitely question how he handled that situation. Bringing in Burress was a decent gamble at the time. Yes he missed 2 years of football in prison, but they needed an affordable replacement for Braylon and prior to being sentenced Burress was beasting.

The biggest mistake was resigning Holmes to that huge contract IMO. It was a great move to trade a 5th for him as he was cheap and played great in 2010, but it was proven he couldn't be relied on once he got paid from how he conducted himself as a leader and teammate after 2010.

A lot of contributing factors went into the regression/lack of progression in Sanchez' growth as a QB (coaching, being held accountable, losing weapons, teammates and leaders like TRich, Braylon, Keller, Woody, Jones then LT, etc) and the aholes at receiver were definitely near the top of the list.

In the end we'll never know if Sanchez could of grown into the Franchise QB we hoped for when he was drafted if he had better coaching and supporting cast.....but we can say for sure those factors didn't help the cause.

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Nice post

Only I say why create contracts if you are going to release guys when they are disgruntled with playing time?

You can't let guys walk and then hope that guys who are to old for their former teams can somehow help you.

This is why I disliked Tannenbuam as a GM. He didn't have a real plan and was far to reactive IMO.

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However, this

I'm just saying it's entirely plausible that a non-JN person didn't see Sanchez criticism until 2011

and this

Outside of Francesa, not one NY media personality criticized Rex with any conviction until he was officially off the Jets payroll. I don't recall much in the way of Sanchez criticism until 2011 preseason, do you? I seem to recall a bunch of Drew Brees statistical comparisons.

are 100% true.

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Harbaugh was the HC when Baltimore cut Mason, not Billick....Billick was fired at least 3 years before Mason was cut. Mason left on good terms from at least what was reported, it was for salary reasons, plus he was 37 years old, but he was great for them while he was a Raven.

Here's an article on Mason being cut: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/909306

Now he was terrible in his short stint as a Jet, that goes without saying as it only lasted a handful of games. However Mason wasn't brought in to be an upgrade over Cotchery, it wasn't "Plan A". The Jets brought in Mason after Cotchery asked for his release because he wanted to be a starter and was upset when they brought in Plaxico to replace Braylon, plus it was reported Cotch didn't like dealing with the diva group of WRs on the team led by Holmes (can't blame the guy for that).

I hope Tannenbaum did all he could to convince Cotchery to stay before he granted his request to be released since he was a big part of our success the past couple years, so you can definitely question how he handled that situation. Bringing in Burress was a decent gamble at the time. Yes he missed 2 years of football in prison, but they needed an affordable replacement for Braylon and prior to being sentenced Burress was beasting.

The biggest mistake was resigning Holmes to that huge contract IMO. It was a great move to trade a 5th for him as he was cheap and played great in 2010, but it was proven he couldn't be relied on once he got paid from how he conducted himself as a leader and teammate after 2010.

A lot of contributing factors went into the regression/lack of progression in Sanchez' growth as a QB (coaching, being held accountable, losing weapons, teammates and leaders like TRich, Braylon, Keller, Woody, Jones then LT, etc) and the aholes at receiver were definitely near the top of the list.

In the end we'll never know if Sanchez could of grown into the Franchise QB we hoped for when he was drafted if he had better coaching and supporting cast.....but we can say for sure those factors didn't help the cause.

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Yes, Billick (doing interview rounds as a broadcaster) made his Mason comments (iirc) to Joe and Evan on WFAN. His exact words were "If he's not getting the ball, he'll tell you all about it," or some such. Flacco, later, commented that his huddle was "not as loud" with Mason gone. The guy was a notorious a$$hole, and that gets covered pretty well in Collision Low Crossers. He would scream down Schottenheimer and Sanchez when he wasn't getting the ball. Same with Plaxico. Same  with Holmes. That's why all three of them were on the street in the first place. 

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Yes, Billick (doing interview rounds as a broadcaster) made his Mason comments (iirc) to Joe and Evan on WFAN. His exact words were "If he's not getting the ball, he'll tell you all about it," or some such. Flacco, later, commented that his huddle was "not as loud" with Mason gone. The guy was a notorious a$$hole, and that gets covered pretty well in Collision Low Crossers. He would scream down Schottenheimer and Sanchez when he wasn't getting the ball. Same with Plaxico. Same with Holmes. That's why all three of them were on the street in the first place.

Ummmm this.

These signings in general are indefensible. Only Holmes had some redeeming qualities and that was only when BE had Sanchez' back!

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I am curious to hear what you actually expected from Sanchez in year 1 or 2 if you were so disappointed in him after 2010? The guy had zero business starting in 2009, and 2010 should have been his first year playing. Despite that he performed reasonably well in the playoffs both years and was not the reason they lost in either of the elimination games they played in those two years. In 2010 he put up respectable numbers, and came up big in multiple games in which the defense blew a lead very late in the game.

 

I find it interesting that you blame Sanchez for "blowing any serious/realistic chances at a winner" when he was not the HC or GM who wanted him, drafted him, or decided to start him in either of those two years. 

 

I also find it interesting that you don't hold Rex accountable for letting Sanchez prance around the locker room like an immature frat boy, instead of acting like a leader.

 

I guess love is blind.

 

Absolving Sanchez for the loss in either elimination game -  particularly Pittsburgh - is ridiculous. In each game he played half a decent game and half a terrible game. 

 

Regardless, you are confusing blaming him for being the QB in the first place with blaming him for not being a good enough QB. I don't blame him for the former but I do blame him for the latter.

 

Ryan is absolutely accountable for not adequately addressing Sanchez acting like a frat boy (if he even addressed it at all). But that behavior Sanchez displayed seems consistent with Ryan's own personality, so it's not surprising he didn't address it. 

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We'll never know Sanchez'es true ceiling. He could of either ended up the same.. A guy who can only put up a decent performance with a good supporting cast or maybe he could of learned from being so hesitant yet stupid when he did pull the trigger on a pass play. Rex ****ed the kid up regardless. He gave him zero chance. That ground and pound did nothing but mask Sanchez. He was so uninterested in offense it almost feels like he was too lazy to try. He figured all Sanchez had to do was be be a manager and his defense would take care of the rest. That's not how you develop a QB at the NFL level. I've never coached a day in my life and that's just common sense though.. He didn't take time to analyze Sanchez'es true problems. And I hope he does the same in Buffalo.

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Absolving Sanchez for the loss in either elimination game -  particularly Pittsburgh - is ridiculous. In each game he played half a decent game and half a terrible game. 

 

Regardless, you are confusing blaming him for being the QB in the first place with blaming him for not being a good enough QB. I don't blame him for the former but I do blame him for the latter.

 

Ryan is absolutely accountable for not adequately addressing Sanchez acting like a frat boy (if he even addressed it at all). But that behavior Sanchez displayed seems consistent with Ryan's own personality, so it's not surprising he didn't address it. 

 

I have watched the Pittsburg game at least 5 times, and as far as I am concerned Sanchez was one of the better players on either side of the ball for the Jets that day. I assume you are referring to the sack/strip 6, which in my opinion after watching that play a million times, I would put him 4th on the blame list on that play, and I don't even think its totally fair to blame him for that play. 

 

The Jets as a team came out flat, Oline was not opening holes, the backs had no room to run, the WR's were getting thrown off their routes and not fighting, and the defense completely sh*t the bed. Sanchez brought them back from the dead in that game, and had the defense made one key stop he likely would have won that game for him.

 

I was against drafting them where they did, I thought he was a late 1st rounder or early 2nd rounder with potential but the need to sit a year or two to mature.

 

I expected him to suck balls in 09, which he did, and was shocked that he did not suck balls in the playoffs. Lets not forget he made a beautiful play late in the 2nd quarter in the AFCCG to give the Jets a 2 score lead, which the defense promptly gave up with horrible play calls, and horrible execution.

 

In 2010 he was not good, but showed pretty good improvement in what should have been his first season as a starter, or 2nd season on the bench. He saved their ass on multiple occasions when the defense gave up a late score, and finished the year with respectable numbers, and had a good playoff run if not a very good playoff run.

 

Sanchez came out too early, was handled horribly, and the biggest problem was that Rex, nor the fan base saw him for what he was, and projected him to be something he was not.

 

2011 offseason and the season itself was the absolute destruction of a QB who could have been decent. A decent QB in this league can win, there is one that shares the stadium with us with 2 rings.

 

Again, I would love to know what you expected from a 1st or 2nd year QB, who came out early, was started way too early, and handled horribly from day 1, particularly in those first two years.

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We'll never know Sanchez'es true ceiling. He could of either ended up the same.. A guy who can only put up a decent performance with a good supporting cast or maybe he could of learned from being so hesitant yet stupid when he did pull the trigger on a pass play. Rex ****ed the kid up regardless. He gave him zero chance. That ground and pound did nothing but mask Sanchez. He was so uninterested in offense it almost feels like he was too lazy to try. He figured all Sanchez had to do was be be a manager and his defense would take care of the rest. That's not how you develop a QB at the NFL level. I've never coached a day in my life and that's just common sense though.. He didn't take time to analyze Sanchez'es true problems. And I hope he does the same in Buffalo.

I agree but it was even worse what Rex did.

 

He let the offensive line go to crap, took away his security blanket WR and gave him a$$ hole veterans to undermine him.

 

Then, in 2011, he and Schitty put him in absolute horrible situations, time after time after time. 

 

If I owned the Jets, after the Baltimore game, I am not even kidding you I would not have allowed Rex or Schitty back in the locker room. They would have both been fired immediately, and that is not revisionist history, I was saying that in the 4th quarter of that game.

 

As time has gone by, we would have been far better off had that happened.

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I think part of Ryan's problem has been the new practice rules.  Ryan is not a disciplinarian, but he is the kind of guy who is going to call for more hitting in practice when guys **** around.  The new rules kept him from doing that and that took away the one thing that I remember him doing.  He didn't make them run laps like Mangini the first couple of years, but there were a few times that I think he had them doing more in pads as punishment.  I think the new CBA restricted what he could do.  Basically every team practices 100% of the allowable time.  Obviously, he should be trying to find an alternative method, but I do think it hurt him more than some other coaches.

 

No.  Most of Rex's problems are self-induced and based on personality.  The best coaches in the league are adaptable.  Rex is not.  Finding an "alternative method" is only in his dictionary when it comes to defensive gameplans, but NOT when handling ANYTHING else.

 

Hence why Richie Incognito is a Bill.  He's a softy for sociopaths from troubled backgrounds.  It's fine to have 1 or 2 of those on a roster, but the Jet rosters from 2011 on were cluttered with those types of guys. 

 

Rex thinks he's the only alpha dog a team needs.  Not true.  You need to have a roster with a solid mix of character guys to keep the lockerroom in check.  If you read Collision Low Crossers, you'd see how clueless Rex was when it came to managing personalities.  Plax and Holmes hated Schottenheimer and openly made fun of him, yet Rex either didn't notice or didn't care.

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No.  Most of Rex's problems are self-induced and based on personality.  The best coaches in the league are adaptable.  Rex is not.  Finding an "alternative method" is only in his dictionary when it comes to defensive gameplans, but NOT when handling ANYTHING else.

 

Hence why Richie Incognito is a Bill.  He's a softy for sociopaths from troubled backgrounds.  It's fine to have 1 or 2 of those on a roster, but the Jet rosters from 2011 on were cluttered with those types of guys. 

 

Rex thinks he's the only alpha dog a team needs.  Not true.  You need to have a roster with a solid mix of character guys to keep the lockerroom in check.  If you read Collision Low Crossers, you'd see how clueless Rex was when it came to managing personalities.  Plax and Holmes hated Schottenheimer and openly made fun of him, yet Rex either didn't notice or didn't care.

 

Most of his problems and a problem are not the same thing. None of what you said disputes my point other than something I completely agree with:  he should have found another method once they reduced practice time.  I didn't say the new practice rules ruined Ryan.  I said that he had an issue once they cut down practice time and I feel that was the one way I had heard of him actually instilling discipline. 

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I agree but it was even worse what Rex did.

He let the offensive line go to crap, took away his security blanket WR and gave him a$$ hole veterans to undermine him.

Then, in 2011, he and Schitty put him in absolute horrible situations, time after time after time.

If I owned the Jets, after the Baltimore game, I am not even kidding you I would not have allowed Rex or Schitty back in the locker room. They would have both been fired immediately, and that is not revisionist history, I was saying that in the 4th quarter of that game.

As time has gone by, we would have been far better off had that happened.

That color bracelet idea Shotty came up with was literally stupidity at its finest. And its sad that everyone had to go before Rex finally got fired. Just goes the show how hard he played Woody on that string.
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Most of his problems and a problem are not the same thing. None of what you said disputes my point other than something I completely agree with:  he should have found another method once they reduced practice time.  I didn't say the new practice rules ruined Ryan.  I said that he had an issue once they cut down practice time and I feel that was the one way I had heard of him actually instilling discipline. 

 

Yes, but the trend when you've evaluated Rex has been to focus in on the trees while ignoring the forest.  The guy is just not fit to be a leader of men at the level he is. 

 

He can teach technique, which made him a great DL coach.  He can draw up a great defensive gameplan, which made him a very good/great DC.  But he has no grasp of how to handle personalities, objectively evaluate personnel (I.E. be a cutthroat, which you need to be in this profession sometimes), and make the tough decisions that might make someone not like him.  He can't be the CEO of the team, because he prefers to focus in on what he knows rather than oversee all football operations.  This makes him a terrible Head Coach. 

 

Rex is a pretty clear cut case of the Peter Principle in action.  He's found his level of incompetence.  All those Bills fans who rushed out to buy season tickets will be sadly disappointed when they see that this is true.

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I have watched the Pittsburg game at least 5 times, and as far as I am concerned Sanchez was one of the better players on either side of the ball for the Jets that day. 

 

Your personal low bar of being "concerned" so doesn't make it so. I watched it after the fact as well, as I had it DVR'd while watching live and we discussed it to death here for some time. His numbers make it look like he had a far better game than he had. There were a number of simply bad passes and missed opportunities in addition to spotting the opposition more points than the final margin of loss. The defensive performance in the first half deserves all the blame it's gotten. Bad as the D was out of the gate, the net result is the offense had to put up all of 15 points more than it surrendered. So style points aside, the result of the complaints amount to failing to hold Pittsburgh's offense to only 9 (net) points instead of 15. This would have allowed the offense's 10 net points to result in a winner.

 

The QB is gone. The HC is gone. The OC is gone. The GM is gone.

 

I'm happy. You should be as well. 

 

If Smith is no better - if he improves enough to hang on to the starting job but not enough to actually be an asset, or if Fitzpatrick takes the job and is meh himself - then 2015 will be another lost opportunity. The public boasting of a small # of players aside, the truth is they know when they're on a stacked team and when they're on a crappy one. So as bad as Smith was the first 2 seasons any reasonable person knows it would take a remarkable QB in his prime to turn either of the last 2 teams into a winner. Hard as it has been to watch at times, he really didn't kill the team's chances because they didn't have any realistic ones to begin with.

 

We'll see what he turns into (or if he turns into something different than we've seen so far).

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Yes, but the trend when you've evaluated Rex has been to focus in on the trees while ignoring the forest.  The guy is just not fit to be a leader of men at the level he is.  He can teach technique, which made him a great DL coach.  He can draw up a great defensive gameplan, which made him a very good/great DC.  But he has no grasp of how to handle personalities, which makes him a terrible Head Coach.

 

Please do not say leader of men to me again.  Ever.

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What, is he your Dad or something?  What did I say in that post that was untrue? 

 

What is with this retort?  Anytime anybody says anything mildly positive about one of the Great Hated around here, that is what gets thrown around. I can accept that.  What I don't understand is what my distaste for that stupid phrase has to do with Rex Ryan?

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What is with this retort?  Anytime anybody says anything mildly positive about one of the Great Hated around here, that is what gets thrown around. I can accept that.  What I don't understand is what my distaste for that stupid phrase has to do with Rex Ryan?

 

Because you did exactly what I said Rex supporters do.  Ignored the forest for the trees.  Dismissed my post because you didn't like a phrase I used.  That's why I responded with that retort.

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Because you did exactly what I said Rex supporters do.  Ignored the forest for the trees.  Dismissed my post because you didn't like a phrase I used.  That's why I responded with that retort.

 

What is the forest for the trees?  I agree with many of the flaws you guys see in Ryan.  Probably most.  He has added value that I don't think other coaches have, but I'm not sure it is worth the hand holding and supervision that he requires for a guy that should be at the top of the food chain.  None of that is related to the point I made.  Ryan did not have a problem with discipline his first two years.  The main reasons for that are that there was more veteran leadership from within and that they started losing which is what causes adversity.  I added what I believe to be a reason - the new practice rules don't let him pound guys in practice which is how he dealt with sh*t in 2009.  Your response was basically to say, no forget that tree look at the forest and then complain that I don't want to rehash the whole ******* Amazon with you people again. 

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Your personal low bar of being "concerned" so doesn't make it so. I watched it after the fact as well, as I had it DVR'd while watching live and we discussed it to death here for some time. His numbers make it look like he had a far better game than he had. There were a number of simply bad passes and missed opportunities in addition to spotting the opposition more points than the final margin of loss. The defensive performance in the first half deserves all the blame it's gotten. Bad as the D was out of the gate, the net result is the offense had to put up all of 15 points more than it surrendered. So style points aside, the result of the complaints amount to failing to hold Pittsburgh's offense to only 9 (net) points instead of 15. This would have allowed the offense's 10 net points to result in a winner.

 

The QB is gone. The HC is gone. The OC is gone. The GM is gone.

 

I'm happy. You should be as well. 

 

If Smith is no better - if he improves enough to hang on to the starting job but not enough to actually be an asset, or if Fitzpatrick takes the job and is meh himself - then 2015 will be another lost opportunity. The public boasting of a small # of players aside, the truth is they know when they're on a stacked team and when they're on a crappy one. So as bad as Smith was the first 2 seasons any reasonable person knows it would take a remarkable QB in his prime to turn either of the last 2 teams into a winner. Hard as it has been to watch at times, he really didn't kill the team's chances because they didn't have any realistic ones to begin with.

 

We'll see what he turns into (or if he turns into something different than we've seen so far).

 

I agree with you. But one additional point: if Idzik had a competent QB, I can't imagine him cheaping out on the roster last year. Might be a chicken or the egg sort of thing.

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Would I prefer syphillis or gonnorhea? Both are great. For the sake of just answering the question -  as dumb as it is - I would take Geno. Sanchez came out of the gate great in Philly when asked to replace Foles. But he almost immediately reverted back to the turnover machine we knew and despised. We know about Geno, but I give him the benefit of the doubt as he had some serious obstacles to overcome. 1- Rex Ryan. 2 - David Lee. 3 - Marty Mornhinweg and a scheme that did not fit his game. He also had a very limited group of WR's his first two years. It is NOW OR NEVER for Geno this season though and I hope he is ready.

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Would I prefer syphillis or gonnorhea? Both are great. For the sake of just answering the question - as dumb as it is - I would take Geno. Sanchez came out of the gate great in Philly when asked to replace Foles. But he almost immediately reverted back to the turnover machine we knew and despised. We know about Geno, but I give him the benefit of the doubt as he had some serious obstacles to overcome. 1- Rex Ryan. 2 - David Lee. 3 - Marty Mornhinweg and a scheme that did not fit his game. He also had a very limited group of WR's his first two years. It is NOW OR NEVER for Geno this season though and I hope he is ready.

To the words out of my mouth. We'll see him in a system he was successful and comfortable with along with 2 Top tier wide outs and on the inside a solid pass catcher.
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