#27TheDominator 211,193 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 That's fine but then he can't come crying when the fingers of guilt are pointing at him. If I were innocent, I'd turn over the phone. You are a terrible client. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeaniec 174 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 You are a terrible client. Not necessarily. I said if I was innocent, I would turn over the phone. Obviously Brady had something to hide. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
#27TheDominator 211,193 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Not necessarily. I said if I was innocent, I would turn over the phone. Obviously Brady had something to hide. ^ Terrible client personified. You think you are smarter than your lawyer or that because you are innocent nothing can harm you. You are wrong. You are wrong and you are a terrible client. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RutgersJetFan 94,062 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 No dice. They had the chance to turn that information over to Wells and refused. Assuming the procedure under the CBA is like most appeal processes, there has to be a pretty compelling reason to consider evidence on appeal that was withheld at the lower level. Even taking as given that it would change the outcome, that typically isn't enough. I know this to be true because I saw The Hurricane and that's what the judge tells Denzel Washington and the nerdy guy from City Slickers at the final trial. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeaniec 174 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 ^ Terrible client personified. You think you are smarter than your lawyer or that because you are innocent nothing can harm you. You are wrong. You are wrong and you are a terrible client. If Brady was trying to clear his name and was also innocent, why would his lawyer tell him not to turn over the phone? Like I mentioned earlier, they could have obtained a gag order to prevent any personal information (or information not relevant) from becoming public knowledge. Also, it's doubtful that his lawyer told him not to turn over the phone because they did turn it over for a short period of time. The investigators were limited to their review in the presence of Brady and attorney. Wasn't enough time to do a complete investigation. Do you really think Brady is innocent? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
#27TheDominator 211,193 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 If Brady was trying to clear his name and was also innocent, why would his lawyer tell him not to turn over the phone? Like I mentioned earlier, they could have obtained a gag order to prevent any personal information (or information not relevant) from becoming public knowledge. Also, it's doubtful that his lawyer told him not to turn over the phone because they did turn it over for a short period of time. The investigators were limited to their review in the presence of Brady and attorney. Wasn't enough time to do a complete investigation. Do you really think Brady is innocent? I don't think he is innocent. However, I don't think that if he were innocent he would have turned over his phone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeaniec 174 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I don't think he is innocent. However, I don't think that if he were innocent he would have turned over his phone. Do you suspect infidelity? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thshadow 1,301 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I don't think he is innocent. However, I don't think that if he were innocent he would have turned over his phone. I believe Wells proposed that he only turn over the subset of relevant texts, as determined by (both?) lawyers... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AFCEastFan 384 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 If Brady was trying to clear his name and was also innocent, why would his lawyer tell him not to turn over the phone? Like I mentioned earlier, they could have obtained a gag order to prevent any personal information (or information not relevant) from becoming public knowledge. Also, it's doubtful that his lawyer told him not to turn over the phone because they did turn it over for a short period of time. The investigators were limited to their review in the presence of Brady and attorney. Wasn't enough time to do a complete investigation. Do you really think Brady is innocent? Re your "gag order" hypothetical, who exactly is entering the order? The court that was not overseeing the investigation? And even if there were such an order, what if the phone has, for example, a text to a male escort service that says "send over two clean-shaven studs with ED, I like my men like I like my balls, soft and smooth". Definitely personal, arguably relevant, definitely embarrassing. Then Brady can look forward to a delightful fight with the league over whether the "gag order" keeps the text confidential because it is personal and embarrassing or whether its arguable relevance (because Brady will argue that the text refers to the balls beneath his waist, not his footballs, while the league will insist that it refers to footballs) means that it is not subject to the "gag order". Most sane, intelligent (and "innocent") people would never risk going down this road in the first place and keep their phone away from an investigative body that has no power to compel its production, particularly one as prone to leaks as the NFL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Lonelyhearts 2,789 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I know this to be true because I saw The Hurricane and that's what the judge tells Denzel Washington and the nerdy guy from City Slickers at the final trial. Nobody else is gonna get this joke. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klecko73isGod 124,339 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Nobody else is gonna get this joke. You would if you saw The Hurricane... duh. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Lonelyhearts 2,789 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 You would if you saw The Hurricane... duh. That's not the joke. I don't think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klecko73isGod 124,339 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 That's not the joke. I don't think. So now I'm supposed to say "what?" Like I don't get it, right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Lonelyhearts 2,789 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 So now I'm supposed to say "what?" Like I don't get it, right? There's no reason for you to get it. Hurricane was the prosecutor withholding exculpatory evidence, not the defense failing to produce it, so it's not really the same thing. The joke is that the Rule 16 discovery at issue in Hurricane is commonly known as 'Brady evidence.' I don't know whether that's actually in the movie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RutgersJetFan 94,062 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 There's no reason for you to get it. Hurricane was the prosecutor withholding exculpatory evidence, not the defense failing to produce it, so it's not really the same thing. The joke is that the Rule 16 discovery at issue in Hurricane is commonly known as 'Brady evidence.' I don't know whether that's actually in the movie. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PFSIKH 101,506 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Your just realizing now Goodell has no idea what he's doing? I gave him the benefit of the doubt for his handling of punishments because he was trying reel in what Tags created. The same for trying to get ahead, no pun intended, of the concussion issue. The Rice issue put me over the top. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PFSIKH 101,506 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Counter argument? Goodall gave Brady a chance to clear his name. He didn't or couldn't. goodell is done with his sh*t unless goodell decides he's tired of the pats players, fans and POS owner whining like b1tches for their cheating QB So you have no argument? Got it. Brady and Patriots were pre-judged before any investigation. It was a no-win situation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jet Nut 16,945 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 So you have no argument? Got it. Brady and Patriots were pre-judged before any investigation. It was a no-win situation. Stop already, you sound like a raving idiot. New defense, Brady was pre judged? And he was in a no win situation? LOL, Pats fans are delusional. If you're even slow enough to believe this new, 30th or so line of defense. how old are you? 14? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie Brown 9,718 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I think you must have deleted the all-caps from your original post by mistake. Whatever you think of Brady's innocence or guilt, turning over his cellphone wholesale to the league was never a realistic or intelligent option.I so disagree with this opinion my friend. If I had a client who could clear his name instanteously by simply providing a non criminal investigation EXCULPATORY evidence I would advise him to do so immediately. Your client isn't here to set some kind of legal precedent! No one had to know the full extent of his cooperation. Think on it Brady can lose millions of dollars in endorsements. To give you an idea someone like Brday can lose 70 million per year in endorsements. Far more then he makes in his yearly salary. You are saying he risks all that because he wants to protect Sheldon from the Jets from a runaway commissioner's office? I say nonsense. Come on man, you know better than that. And to the lawyers out here as you well know that when a client says it's not about the money, you know it's about the money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
indygirl4jets 10,321 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Brady and the entire patriots organization are making themselves look like fools. This, on top of everything else they have done, will forever be their legacy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeaniec 174 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Re your "gag order" hypothetical, who exactly is entering the order? The court that was not overseeing the investigation? And even if there were such an order, what if the phone has, for example, a text to a male escort service that says "send over two clean-shaven studs with ED, I like my men like I like my balls, soft and smooth". Definitely personal, arguably relevant, definitely embarrassing. Then Brady can look forward to a delightful fight with the league over whether the "gag order" keeps the text confidential because it is personal and embarrassing or whether its arguable relevance (because Brady will argue that the text refers to the balls beneath his waist, not his footballs, while the league will insist that it refers to footballs) means that it is not subject to the "gag order". Most sane, intelligent (and "innocent") people would never risk going down this road in the first place and keep their phone away from an investigative body that has no power to compel its production, particularly one as prone to leaks as the NFL. Anyone can get a gag order. You don't have to be in litigation to obtain one. In terms of your sample conversation to show why Brady wouldn't turn over his phone. If something like that were to happen (cofusion about a text), they would ask Brady to clarify. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NYs Stepchild 2,321 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I think you must have deleted the all-caps from your original post by mistake. Whatever you think of Brady's innocence or guilt, turning over his cellphone wholesale to the league was never a realistic or intelligent option. You're right, but he said only if he was innocent. Most certainly turning over his phone would have implicated others, besides tipping off the league to all the other forms of cheating they're involved in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NYs Stepchild 2,321 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Brady and the entire patriots organization are making themselves look like fools. This, on top of everything else they have done, will forever be their legacy. Well for one thing, even criticizing a ref is penalized. This is the end of the Pats getting any benefit of the doubt on questionable penalties. Open season on Brady for sure...idiots. Just come clean, and apologize. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EM31 9,829 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Well for one thing, even criticizing a ref is penalized. This is the end of the Pats getting any benefit of the doubt on questionable penalties. Open season on Brady for sure...idiots. Just come clean, and apologize. Good point. The Patriots smear job against the NFL included those "incompetent" and "unethical" referees. At some point you would think that group might begin to take notice even if the "give the Patriots the benefit of any doubt" mandate from the Commissioner's office were not about to be rescinded (a decade too late). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jet Nut 16,945 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Good point. The Patriots smear job against the NFL included those "incompetent" and "unethical" referees. At some point you would think that group might begin to take notice even if the "give the Patriots the benefit of any doubt" mandate from the Commissioner's office were not about to be rescinded (a decade too late). Brady and the Patriots calling anyone "unethical" is kind of the definition of the pot calling the kettle black. Kind of like Kraft crying years ago that the Jets don't play by the rules 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flushing Roots 1,197 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 He should bring Roger Clemens to court with him for counsel and moral support. And maybe a baseball card of Shoeless Joe Jackson for some divine intervention. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AFCEastFan 384 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I so disagree with this opinion my friend. If I had a client who could clear his name instanteously by simply providing a non criminal investigation EXCULPATORY evidence I would advise him to do so immediately. Your client isn't here to set some kind of legal precedent! No one had to know the full extent of his cooperation. Think on it Brady can lose millions of dollars in endorsements. To give you an idea someone like Brday can lose 70 million per year in endorsements. Far more then he makes in his yearly salary. You are saying he risks all that because he wants to protect Sheldon from the Jets from a runaway commissioner's office? I say nonsense. Come on man, you know better than that. And to the lawyers out here as you well know that when a client says it's not about the money, you know it's about the money. I agree with these points, so I am not sure that there is much we disagree on here. I say don't turn over your phone; you say do turn over exculpatory evidence. I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Harper 4,104 Posted August 4, 2015 Author Share Posted August 4, 2015 It was fine for Brady to hold onto his phone and not turn it over. That never would have become a big issue here if he had agreed to turn over his requested texts regarding the balls -- which he refused to do. The Patriots PR machine has attempted to equate turning over the phone numbers that he texted and the times that he texted them with the texts themselves. Only blind Pats homers have bought this argument. And by the way, I went from a blackberry to a Samsung to an I-phone and all my texts went to each of the new phones. It seems unfathomable that he could not put his hands on them if he wanted to. In the absence of subpoena power he was entitled to not turn them over but you can't have it both ways by trying to suggest that you were an open book when you deliberately held back this key evidence. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bitonti 43,241 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 what I still don't understand is if nothing was done illegally and everything was above board, why were the 2 equipment managers suspended by the Patriots? Suspending innocent people is horrible when it's Brady but it's fine when it's the ball boy? Side note I hope that guy loses those last 10 pounds. I know what it's like to struggle with deflation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nyjunc 10,924 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I cannot believe this issue is still such huge news. the NFL really knows how to bungle PR in the last few years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie Brown 9,718 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 what I still don't understand is if nothing was done illegally and everything was above board, why were the 2 equipment managers suspended by the Patriots? Suspending innocent people is horrible when it's Brady but it's fine when it's the ball boy? Side note I hope that guy loses those last 10 pounds. I know what it's like to struggle with deflation. That is a wonderful question and I am sure Pats fans will come up with an outstanding response!!! I will wait to hear it..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Lonelyhearts 2,789 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 what I still don't understand is if nothing was done illegally and everything was above board, why were the 2 equipment managers suspended by the Patriots? Suspending innocent people is horrible when it's Brady but it's fine when it's the ball boy? Side note I hope that guy loses those last 10 pounds. I know what it's like to struggle with deflation. ^certain demographics Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jet Fan RI 410 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 That is a wonderful question and I am sure Pats fans will come up with an outstanding response!!! I will wait to hear it..... I can hear it now. Kraft: "We were planning to suspend them anyway. We don't like having employees who need deflation. It's not the Patriot Way." 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NYs Stepchild 2,321 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 what I still don't understand is if nothing was done illegally and everything was above board, why were the 2 equipment managers suspended by the Patriots? Suspending innocent people is horrible when it's Brady but it's fine when it's the ball boy? Side note I hope that guy loses those last 10 pounds. I know what it's like to struggle with deflation. I'm pretty sure they were fired, probably for turning over their phones which made Brady look bad...I mean set back privacy rights. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NYs Stepchild 2,321 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I cannot believe this issue is still such huge news. the NFL really knows how to bungle PR in the last few years. It's the Pats that have kept this in the news. Why do you think the NFL is so mad? What are they supposed to cave just so it will go away? That would be open season for all teams to hold the league hostage with threats of law suits. I really think Brady should be suspended until he comes clean and they both apologize to the NFL for questioning their character. What a couple of idiots. Even if Goodall wanted to make this go away he cannot anymore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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