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fitz= worst qb maybe ever to start for a jets team


kmnj

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There's more to this game than numbers.  Many here post stats from Fitz's last year w/Texans to show he's a good QB.

If that's the case, explain this...

http://boards.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=43899

That's a fun stat.  67 to 1.  Mallett over Fitz.

67 to 1 !!!

Texan fans want a QB of the future. Ryan is not that, and they hope Mallet will be. Now they're stuck with Hoyer starting, but that's irrelevant. They also think AJ is still good, and from watching last season he's not anymore. You can't blame them for seeing him through Texas colored glasses. They also had terrible play calling imo.

No one in that whole thread said anything about Fitz being a bad QB, just limited, and not a franchise QB. You guys may be the only people on the planet that think he's bad. How about you take a poll of Texan's fans and ask them if they'd rather have Geno or Fitz? I'll bet it'd be worse than 67-1 in favor of Fitz.

You guys need to man up, and dry your tears.

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Totally disagree with a couple of your points.

 

First,  Ken O'Brien might actually excel in this era of football. With all of the rule changes that have come out to help the offenses an accurate passer like O'Brien could have excelled. 

 

Also, O'Brien's poor playoff record has many factors besides the QB's play.

Those Joe Walton teams that O'Brien went into the playoffs with in the 80's were decimated by injuries on the offensive and defensive lines each time. The team hobbled into the playoffs and you can't blame that on the QB.

 

 

How come the one game he didn't start we won going away? were the OL and DLs not decimated that game but a week later when he came back in?

 

In 1986 we had a ton of injuries which helped derail our season but poor QB play also killed us too and that immediately changed when Ryan came in and immediately came back when Ryan got hurt a week later.

In 1985 we went in on a high crushing playoff bound Cleveland and then he laid an egg against NE at home a week later.

 

his next and last playoff app was at 8-8 in 1991 w/ Coslet.  we beat Miami in Miami and we moved the ball at Houston but Ken threw an INT deep in Hou territory(which I think hit the ground but they didn't review it) and we turned it over on downs a couple of times so we came away w/ 10 pts and lost.

 

the rules would help him but he'd be a sitting duck against better athletes on defense.

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Don't need to watch the tapes, I remember it like it was yesterday.

I'm not an O'Brien supporter, didn't like him either...Just stating the facts, half the damn team got hurt in the second half of that season, including O'Brien

the funny thing is I loved Kenny, was one of my favorites.

 

we were beat up but again w/ the same team that was averaging under 10 PPg w/ O'Brien the last 5 weeks Ryan led us to 35 pts(I think 28 on O) in a WC win.

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How come the one game he didn't start we won going away? were the OL and DLs not decimated that game but a week later when he came back in?

 

In 1986 we had a ton of injuries which helped derail our season but poor QB play also killed us too and that immediately changed when Ryan came in and immediately came back when Ryan got hurt a week later.

In 1985 we went in on a high crushing playoff bound Cleveland and then he laid an egg against NE at home a week later.

 

his next and last playoff app was at 8-8 in 1991 w/ Coslet.  we beat Miami in Miami and we moved the ball at Houston but Ken threw an INT deep in Hou territory(which I think hit the ground but they didn't review it) and we turned it over on downs a couple of times so we came away w/ 10 pts and lost.

 

the rules would help him but he'd be a sitting duck against better athletes on defense.

it's never going to happen so we will never know
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it's never going to happen so we will never know

yep which is why we discuss players vs. their era.  In Ken's era he was a mediocre QB most of his career w/ a season and a half of AP caliber play.  he was drafted to a young and talented team coming off a title game app and he never won a single playoff game despite starting for many, many years.

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yep which is why we discuss players vs. their era.  In Ken's era he was a mediocre QB most of his career w/ a season and a half of AP caliber play.  he was drafted to a young and talented team coming off a title game app and he never won a single playoff game despite starting for many, many years.

We could have had Marino, passed on him and passed on at least 2 Super Bowl Championships... Story of our lives...

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With Toon, Walker, Shuler, Hector, Mcneil our Dee...we would have won at least 2

He had Duper and Clayton. I'm confident Joe Walton would have found a way to **** it up. 

No way Marino lasts through 1985. O'Brien got sacked 62 times that year. They weren't all due to his release. Marino would have been sacked about 40 times behind that line. Not sure his knees would have held up. 

Marino's release saved him from plenty of sacks but Miami had a stellar line. In 1988 he was only sacked 6 times all year. That's insane. For comparison purposes, Namath, whose release was probably a little quicker than Marino's best was 13 in a 14-game season. That's an o-line playing at an insane level. 

He threw 606 passes that year. He dropped back 612 times and only got sacked six times. We'll never see that again. 

 

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He had Duper and Clayton. I'm confident Joe Walton would have found a way to **** it up. 

No way Marino lasts through 1985. O'Brien got sacked 62 times that year. They weren't all due to his release. Marino would have been sacked about 40 times behind that line. Not sure his knees would have held up. 

Marino's release saved him from plenty of sacks but Miami had a stellar line. In 1988 he was only sacked 6 times all year. That's insane. For comparison purposes, Namath, whose release was probably a little quicker than Marino's best was 13 in a 14-game season. That's an o-line playing at an insane level. 

He threw 606 passes that year. He dropped back 612 times and only got sacked six times. We'll never see that again. 

 

Marino wouldn't have gotten sacked even half as many times w/ his great footwork and lighting quick release.  the biggest myth about the O'Brien 80s jets teams was the play of the OL.  it looked much worse than it was b/c of the stone footed QB.

 

 

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I knew Browning Nagel.  Browning Nagel was a friend of mine.  You, Mr. Fitzpatrick, are no Browning Nagel.

not well enough to spell his name correctly:lol:

 

bringing this back to the original topic.  In my lifetime(been watching the Jets since 1981) the following I think are worse than Fitz will be for us:

(all QBs started at least one game)

 

David Norrie- replacement QB

Kyle mackey

Troy Taylor

Browning Nagle

Bubby Brister(Bubby was a better QB but for us he was awful)

Rick Mirer

Brooks Bollinger

Kellen Clemens

Greg McElroy

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He had Duper and Clayton. I'm confident Joe Walton would have found a way to **** it up. 

No way Marino lasts through 1985. O'Brien got sacked 62 times that year. They weren't all due to his release. Marino would have been sacked about 40 times behind that line. Not sure his knees would have held up. 

Marino's release saved him from plenty of sacks but Miami had a stellar line. In 1988 he was only sacked 6 times all year. That's insane. For comparison purposes, Namath, whose release was probably a little quicker than Marino's best was 13 in a 14-game season. That's an o-line playing at an insane level. 

He threw 606 passes that year. He dropped back 612 times and only got sacked six times. We'll never see that again. 

 

He was an all time great that lost a Super Bowl and in the playoffs because he had a lousy supporting cast, Jets had much more talent...Disagree with you

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He was an all time great that lost Super Bowls because he had a lousy supporting cast, Jets had much more talent...Disagree with you

Super Bowl. Singular. He only made it to one and he played atrociously in that game, leading his team to only 9 points. Based on that alone he could never play for an nyjunc-coached  team. 

That's a homer view. The Jets were not better than the Dolphins.

 

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not well enough to spell his name correctly:lol:

 

bringing this back to the original topic.  In my lifetime(been watching the Jets since 1981) the following I think are worse than Fitz will be for us:

(all QBs started at least one game)

 

David Norrie- replacement QB

Kyle mackey

Troy Taylor

Browning Nagle

Bubby Brister(Bubby was a better QB but for us he was awful)

Rick Mirer

Brooks Bollinger

Kellen Clemens

Greg McElroy

 

Don't you mean Browning NAGLE?

lol seriously guys?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ5CIkSlUFI

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiNVqYwVfWE

 

edit: how do we embed youtube now?

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He had Duper and Clayton. I'm confident Joe Walton would have found a way to **** it up. 

No way Marino lasts through 1985. O'Brien got sacked 62 times that year. They weren't all due to his release. Marino would have been sacked about 40 times behind that line. Not sure his knees would have held up. 

Marino's release saved him from plenty of sacks but Miami had a stellar line. In 1988 he was only sacked 6 times all year. That's insane. For comparison purposes, Namath, whose release was probably a little quicker than Marino's best was 13 in a 14-game season. That's an o-line playing at an insane level. 

He threw 606 passes that year. He dropped back 612 times and only got sacked six times. We'll never see that again. 

 

Duper and Clayton ?? Clayton was a 5'9 8th rd pick and Duper was a 5'9 2nd rd pick plus Marino had no running game.. And as you said he had the quickest release in football Kenny had the slowest.. Marino was at least mobile something Kenny wasn't he had 9 rushing tds to Kenny's 0..

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Duper and Clayton ?? Clayton was a 5'9 8th rd pick and Duper was a 5'9 2nd rd pick plus Marino had no running game.. And as you said he had the quickest release in football Kenny had the slowest.. Marino was at least mobile something Kenny wasn't he had 9 rushing tds to Kenny's 0..

I wouldn't call marino mobile as far as running w/ the football but he had amazing footwork to move in the pocket and he prevented a lot of sacks.  That year Kenny was sacked 62 times Marino probably would have been sacked 10 times.

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I wouldn't call marino mobile as far as running w/ the football but he had amazing footwork to move in the pocket and he prevented a lot of sacks.  That year Kenny was sacked 62 times Marino probably would have been sacked 10 times.

I meant he was mobile compared to the statue named Kenny who the pigeons used to sit on..LOL

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Duper and Clayton ?? Clayton was a 5'9 8th rd pick and Duper was a 5'9 2nd rd pick plus Marino had no running game.. And as you said he had the quickest release in football Kenny had the slowest.. Marino was at least mobile something Kenny wasn't he had 9 rushing tds to Kenny's 0..

WTF does height have to do with anything? 

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Duper and Clayton ?? Clayton was a 5'9 8th rd pick and Duper was a 5'9 2nd rd pick plus Marino had no running game.. And as you said he had the quickest release in football Kenny had the slowest.. Marino was at least mobile something Kenny wasn't he had 9 rushing tds to Kenny's 0..

You need to read Allen Barra's book Clearing The Bases. He includes an article the beautifully dispells the "Dan Marino never had a running game" myth. 

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Super Bowl. Singular. He only made it to one and he played atrociously in that game, leading his team to only 9 points. Based on that alone he could never play for an nyjunc-coached  team. 

That's a homer view. The Jets were not better than the Dolphins.

 

You're wrong...And if I was a homer wouldnt I be saying OBrien was better than Marino?

I think the Jets were loaded with talen those years while the Dolphins were a no name bunch for the most part...You're calling Clayton and Duper equal to Toon and Walker? You must be crazy...

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I wouldn't call marino mobile as far as running w/ the football but he had amazing footwork to move in the pocket and he prevented a lot of sacks.  That year Kenny was sacked 62 times Marino probably would have been sacked 10 times.

I'm sensing hyperbole. 

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He was an all time great that lost a Super Bowl and in the playoffs because he had a lousy supporting cast, Jets had much more talent...Disagree with you

 

This argument is all you need to know about Jets fans...

Some Jets fans are still arguing that Ken O'Brien who had some "excellent" games against Miami and others is somehow, in someway and in some alternative universe better than all time great and HOF QB Dan Marino!!

Insanity!!!

Good Grief!!

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Super Bowl. Singular. He only made it to one and he played atrociously in that game, leading his team to only 9 points. Based on that alone he could never play for an nyjunc-coached  team. 

That's a homer view. The Jets were not better than the Dolphins.

 

You're wrong...And if I was a homer wouldnt I be saying OBrien was better than Marino?

I think the Jets were loaded with talent those years while the Dolphins were a no name bunch for the most part...You're calling Clayton and Duper equal to Toon and Walker? You must be crazy...

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I am so glad someone wrote this article. 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2015/film-room-ryan-fitzpatrick

 

Film Room: Ryan Fitzpatrick 

by Cian Fahey

Ryan Fitzpatrick is a mirage.

The veteran quarterback is entering his 11th season in the NFL, after signing for his sixth team during the offseason. Fitzpatrick was signed to be Geno Smith's backup for the New York Jets, reuniting with former offensive coordinator Chan Gailey. An untimely injury to Geno Smiththen inserted Fitzpatrick into the starting lineup. Generally when a team goes from its decided-upon starter to a newly acquired backup who has been in the league for more a decade, it is seen as a major negative. Because of Geno Smith's slow start to his career and Fitzpatrick's relatively strong standing for a backup, that is not the case here.

There were widespread examples of pieces suggesting that Fitzpatrick would be an improvement over Smith after the young quarterback broke his jaw. Most of that optimism was based around the idea that Fitzpatrick is a competent, established player while Smith has already proven to be too flawed to start at this level. This despite Smith being just 24 years of age while Fitzpatrick is on the wrong side of 30. Fitzpatrick's statistical output over his career is unspectacular, but it doesn't raise alarm bells about his quality. He has completed 60.2 percent of his passes while averaging 6.6 yards per attempt. His touchdown-to-interception ratio is an acceptable 123:101, while he has added 11 rushing touchdowns with 54 total fumbles. In comparison, Smith has completed just 57.5 percent of his passes for 6.9 yards per attempt with 32 total touchdowns and 34 interceptions, plus 16 fumbles.

(Ed. Note: I should add Football Outsiders to the list of websites suggesting that going from Smith to Fitzpatrick would be a small improvement. In FOA 2015, we projected Smith with -15.8% passing DVOA this season, and Fitzpatrick with -8.7% passing DVOA: still below average, but an improvement. -- Aaron Schatz)

Statistically, Smith is worse than Fitzpatrick. Yet, their play on the field hasn't been that different. Smith is still at an early stage of his career and has played with awful supporting casts to this point. Fitzpatrick is past his prime and has played with various levels of support over his career. Last season was statistically his most impressive. He completed 63.1 percent of his passes for 8.0 yards per attempt, both career highs. His touchdown-to-interception ratio was better than ever before as he threw 17 touchdowns with just eight interceptions. Those numbers suggest that Fitzpatrick was the game-managing option the Houston Texans hoped he would be when they named him their starting quarterback. Unfortunately, those numbers only help to paint the mirage that Fitzpatrick has become.

 

Fitzpatrick only played in 12 games for the Texans last year. He was injured late in the year, but had been benched previously for poor performance. Fitzpatrick's numbers remained impressive, but largely for reasons out of his control. 

The Texans had a run-first offense based around the talents of Arian Foster. Therefore, Fitzpatrick only threw 312 passes in 12 games. Just eight of those 312 passes were caught by an opposing defender in bounds, but Fitzpatrick could have thrown many more interceptions. Football Outsiders game charting lists Fitzpatrick with 13 adjusted interceptions thanks to five possible picks dropped by defenders. My own Interceptable Passes project, an even more detailed charting of possible picks (with less strict definitions for "possible interceptions"), assigned 18 interceptions to Fitzpatrick last season, with just two of his caught interceptions being deemed someone else's fault. Some of those were caught, but most weren't. The Interceptable Passes project was designed to isolate the actions of the quarterback and recognize opportunities when he threw passes that were likely to be intercepted because of his actions. It wasn't because of anything Fitzpatrick did that defenders kept dropping or misreading the flight of bad passes he threw, nor should he be forgiven when his two dominant talents at wide receiver -- DeAndre Hopkins and Andre Johnson -- pull inaccurate passes away from waiting defenders.

The Texans starter finished as one of the worst players tracked in that project. He shared a tier with Andy Dalton and Derek Carr, ranking above just four of the 31 charted quarterbacks. Geno Smith ranked five spots higher than Fitzpatrick and was dramatically better over the second half of his season than he was the first. 

Fitzpatrick was the same turnover-prone player he has been throughout his career; luck and a talented supporting cast simply conspired to keep his official interception tally low.

Despite what his reputation suggests, Fitzpatrick is one of the least intelligent quarterbacks to have seen the field during the regular season over recent years. His Harvard education, though often pointed to, carries little applicable value. Not until Harvard revamps its class structure to let students knock each other out while trying to read a blackboard with NFL coverages on it from 20 yards away will any form of that academic education become relevant to being an effective quarterback. What is relevant is what Fitzpatrick has repeatedly done throughout his career: make bad decisions on the field.

Fitzpatrick predetermines decisions and has major problems with timing. He lacks poise in the pocket, so he doesn't understand when to get rid of the ball against pressure or when he needs to hold it in a clean pocket. He can't effectively read a progression on a regular basis. He does move his eyes from receiver to receiver on occasion, but he doesn't actually see the field well. He looks for receivers without recognizing that they are open or about to come open. Often he just cycles through his targets before checking the ball down or forcing it into a receiver who isn't open.

These issues are all prevalent on his interceptions and interceptable passes, particularly those that deal with reacting to pressure. However, they also permeate through the rest of his play.

Take the above play for example. It's third-and-9 on the Pittsburgh Steelers' 28-yard line. The Steelers essentially rush just three players because their fourth rusher coming from the top of the screen is caught in traffic initially. Fitzpatrick has as much time as he could want in the pocket. He looks to the right initially, before frenetically bringing his eyes back to the middle of the field and bouncing them back into the right flat to find Arian Foster. He checks down to Foster, who is well covered just 2 yards downfield. Fitzpatrick had a huge amount of time in the pocket to survey the defense without even resetting his feet. He could have manipulated the defense to create space for one of his receivers or simply let the receiver's routes develop before dropping his eyes to Foster.

The route combinations to the top of the screen could have resulted in a touchdown or a first down if given the chance to develop, while there was a tight end running towards the seam close to where Foster had drawn a linebacker into the flat. Fitzpatrick didn't use the time afforded to him to locate or work an opening in the defense. He immediately gave up on any potential first down to settle for a field goal.

Although this play doesn't stand out as obviously awful like a bad turnover does, it's the kind of play that can destroy an offense when it's repeated so often. Fitzpatrick offered another example of his inability to function effectively from the pocket against the Atlanta Falcons last week.

 

082615-02.jpg

 

It was third-and-9 inside Jets territory. Fitzpatrick had plenty of time and space when he got to the top of his drop. His eyes had immediately focused on the right side of the field, where Brandon Marshall was running a deep curl route from the slot and Bilal Powell was running underneath him from the outside on an in route. At this point of the play, it is blatantly obvious that Marshall won't be open at any point. He has three defenders who have been drawn towards him, leaving Powell alone underneath. Throwing short of the first-down marker on third down isn't always advisable, but in this situation an accurate, simple throw would give Powell a chance to run to the space over the middle of the field and possibly get a first down.

dOWH4

Waiting for Marshall to come open invited pressure upfront, which then forced Fitzpatrick to drop his eyes and scramble. He ran for 3 yards and never had a chance of even getting close to the first-down marker. The offense was forced to punt the ball away.

This is what makes Fitzpatrick a mirage. He avoids the big mistake often enough to make him seem appealing, but all the time he is systematically destroying your offense by not executing simple reads. He is essentially a worse version of Alex Smith, another quarterback who doesn't understand the need to be more adventurous with the ball for his offense to function properly.

Fitzpatrick's lack of timing and field awareness is compounded by his porous arm talent.

 

082615-03.jpg

 

This chart tracks every pass Fitzpatrick threw last season that wasn't intentionally thrown away or tipped at the line of scrimmage. His completion percentage last year was 63.1 percent, but his accuracy percentage was 66.9 percent, as there are 207 accurate passes and 102 inaccurate passes on the above chart. Fitzpatrick obviously had accurate throws that were dropped by his receivers, but the difference between his actual completion percentage and his accuracy percentage suggest that his receivers were routinely bailing him out on inaccurate throws. No receiver did that more than DeAndre Hopkins, a receiver who established himself as one of the very best in the NFL last season. 

Hopkins only had 76 receptions for 1,210 yards and six touchdowns, but it doesn't take long watching him to realize he could have had huge numbers if given even average service from his quarterback. At 6-foot-1 and 218 pounds, Hopkins isn't huge when compared to other top NFL receivers. He does offer his quarterback a huge catch radius though, one that extends around his whole body and is fluid enough to quickly adjust to poorly placed passes. Hopkins has exceptional strength in his grip to not only catch the ball away from his body, but do so against tight coverage before absorbing any hits or knocks to maintain possession of the ball to the ground. On numerous occasions last year, Fitzpatrick could essentially just throw the ball up for grabs and expect Hopkins to dominate the defensive back covering him to come down with the ball. Hopkins offered Fitzpatrick a huge margin for error on back-shoulder throws in particular.

As the above play shows, Fitzpatrick sometimes tested just how far he could stretch that margin for error. This throw against the Philadelphia Eagles favored the cornerback much more than the receiver. The cornerback never got an opportunity to play the ball because he couldn't turn his head while playing aggressive coverage against Hopkins. Even though Hopkins was expecting to reach back for the ball, he instead had to reach through the defensive back to pull the ball in from above his head. This pass was catchable, but inaccurate. It's the type of throw that Fitzpatrick makes to every level of the field with incredible consistency.

Hopkins' exceptional ability to play the ball downfield was repeatedly shown off last year. Fitzpatrick's completion percentage on 20-plus-yard throws was the highest in the NFL, but nine of his 17 completions came on just 13 attempts to Hopkins.

 

082615-05.jpg

 

Hopkins created huge passing windows on back-shoulder throws, plucked the ball out of the air when defensive backs had more favorable positions, and even ran outstanding routes to put himself in vast amounts of space, all of which elevated Fitzpatrick's production despite the quarterback's constant poor ball placement on downfield throws. Throwing downfield to other receivers on the roster was a major challenge. That was even so for Andre Johnson who struggled to win at the catch point because of Fitzpatrick's lack of timing and ball placement. 

Hopkins and Johnson are both amongst the best accuracy-boosting receivers in the NFL. Both players have exceptional strength, fluidity, and awareness at the catch point to dominate defensive backs, but they can also create separation and run precise routes to always be open when they're supposed to be open. In Eric Decker and Brandon Marshall, the Jets have one player with that kind of talent who is on the back end of his career, and one player who is too rigid in his skill set to be that effective.

Poor ball placement downfield puts a huge amount of stress on receivers, but poor ball placement on shorter throws is even worse.

Most offenses don't call downfield shots that often, so the passing game is primarily built on short and intermediate throws. Chan Gailey isn't likely to ask Fitzpatrick to push the ball downfield a huge amount in New York this season. Fitzpatrick's issue is that his ball placement is a constant problem, not just a result of his lack of arm strength on deeper passes. The Texans ranked 28th in the NFL in yards after the catch last year. Fitzpatrick's inability to place the ball correctly even on throws as simple as screen passes played a huge role in that low ranking. The above gif is a great example of how his inaccuracy cost his receivers opportunities.

Fitzpatrick continues to get opportunities in the NFL, even if just as a backup, because of how he fails. How you fail as a quarterback in the NFL is very important to coaches. If you stick to the design of the play and play from the pocket but simply can't execute the way you need to, you are much more likely to hang around a team over a player who stands out more as an individual but relies more on his creativity than the coach's creativity. Furthermore, if you have consistent subtle failures instead of less regular major failures, you will be viewed more favorably from a distance. That is where Fitzpatrick falls.

While Geno Smith isn't a high bar to clear, he was still a developing young quarterback who had finished both of his seasons in the NFL playing with consistency and precision. Fitzpatrick is the opposite of that. He has long since proven who he is at this level. There aren't 32 quality quarterbacks to start in today's NFL and he's not one of the exceptions.

No matter how much you can make him look like one.

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