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Fitz got an insanely high QBR of 91.4 against Miami


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here is a little something that you dont know about me since you werent around these forums then.  I fully supported sanchez, even through year 3. I made excuses that he hit his sophmore slump a year late and year 4 I still supported him.  By the end of year 4 it was obvious that he just didnt get it.  I gave the guy nearly 4 years because i saw flashes and yes he did help us in his first 2 years.  He is "not good" and no longer even servicable imo... Fitz is an upgrade, there is no doubt in my mind but to each their own.

so you supported him through 3 years then abandoned him when his main weapons were Stephen Hill(the rookie version no less), Chaz Schilens and clyde gates?  throw in Tim Tebow and Tony Sparano and explain to me how he was going to succeed?  mark on this team and we are legit SB contenders.

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I'll take a top 15 QB after what we've had at the position for the previous 6 years. Gladly. 

Hes been consistantly getting our playmakers the ball.  Marshall and decker are having great season with fitz. hes also has avoided back breaking turnovers and is not coating us games. until petty i

Fitz puts up good stats:  "Throw all numbers out, can't be trusted." Fitz helps the Jets to a 3-1 start:  "A good QB like Geno Smith would have us 4-0". This is beyond comical.

Can anyone verify these numbers?  They don't seem right to me.  Those are terrible, absolutely horrible numbers - especially with the all the rookies, second string and back-ups currently playing.

I'm not sure if all 28 QB's ahead of Fitz in QB rating have had enough attempts to qualify.  Need to check that for sure.

 

Edited by Jetsfan80
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the guy that helped us reach 2 title games, why would I ever back him?

unfortunately all those things are subjective, there's no way anyone can watch that game Sunday and come out impressed w/ the way fitz played other than his few nice scrambles.

I'm generally on your side when it comes to the board fitz vs geno debate.... but how can you be criticizing fitz based on the #s not telling the story of how he played, while being 3-1, and turn around and credit Sanchez for the team reaching consecutive AFC championships, while ignoring how he played?

 

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It's not a punt if he does it on 1st down.  And 99% of the time this season, it's been a wasted down, so I dont think its keeping any D honest.  Especially when you see his baloon ball in the air for 10 seconds on those throws.  And if half of those balls start getting picked off, I'm pretty confident you wont like that he's doing it anymore because the Jets will start losing ball games.  Eli can make a living out of it because he has a cannon.

 

I agree if he continues to miss so much - but he opened Miami with the deep completion to Marshall that seemingly set the tone for the rest of the game. 

I think you have to keep taking shots....And get better.  If you don't get better, you're 100% correct...But, you could miss 3 or 4 of these for every one you hit.  And also agree, got cut down on the INT's - but that's on the receiver too...

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I'm generally on your side when it comes to the board fitz vs geno debate.... but how can you be criticizing fitz based on the #s not telling the story of how he played, while being 3-1, and turn around and credit Sanchez for the team reaching consecutive AFC championships, while ignoring how he played?

 

Sanchez played well in 2009 and really well in 2010.  both years much better than the #s show.  In 2009 he had 4 atrocious games that skewed his #s, 15 of his 20 INTs came in those 4 games so he only had 5 in the other 11.

 

In 2010 he was a top 10 type QB, how many late game comebacks did he lead that year? and he was really good in both postseasons.

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By this theory you're saying "Hope" is really all you want.  Because you must know Fitz doesn't have the skill set to win a Super Bowl...so just having hope in enough.  

I guess it's hard to blame any long suffering Jet fan for having that as a benchmark but I would prefer to take a real shot and fail.

Bold is a false argument, and naive.

Teams win SuperBowls. Even the Patriots won more SBs with Tom Brady when his skill set was much more limited because of the team around him. Even Peyton, arguably the best QB of our generation, couldn't win a SB until he had a team around him that could help towards the effort.

Don't talk to me about this... I think it's quite possibly the dumbest angle in this whole argument.

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Bold is a false argument, and naive.

Teams win SuperBowls. Even the Patriots won more SBs with Tom Brady when his skill set was much more limited because of the team around him. Even Peyton, arguably the best QB of our generation, couldn't win a SB until he had a team around him that could help towards the effort.

Don't talk to me about this... I think it's quite possibly the dumbest angle in this whole argument.

Peyton has had SB caliber talent around him almost his entire career, the reason he hasn't won more is b/c he gags every January.  the reason NE went from awful franchise to dynasty is b/c of tom Brady.

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watch the games, if you think we can beat good teams w/ the way Fitz has played then have fun w/ that.

 

I didn't say we would be 4-0 w/ Geno, someone said we'd be 1-3.  I said there's a better chance are 4-0 than 1-3.  QB play has been way down on the list of reasons why we are 3-1.  the QB was a major reason for our only loss and kept Indy and Miami in games that should been major blowouts.

Coming out flat, missing key players and adjusting to replacements, giving up a return TD to Sproles, turning the ball over, getting run on outside were all factors in that loss. Unless you want your QB to play special teams and defense, I'd say that blaming Fitz for the bulk of that loss is just nonsense. He played his part. He didn't own primary blame. But you've got your narrative which is pro-Geno and anti-Fitz, so no point in trying to convince you. Fitz is a decent QB, nothing more. That's a lot better than what we've seen from Geno, who has been an abomination in the regular season.

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Peyton has had SB caliber talent around him almost his entire career, the reason he hasn't won more is b/c he gags every January.  the reason NE went from awful franchise to dynasty is b/c of tom Brady.

I think the Pats rise to glory has more to do with cameras and radio frequencies than anything else.

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Coming out flat, missing key players and adjusting to replacements, giving up a return TD to Sproles, turning the ball over, getting run on outside were all factors in that loss. Unless you want your QB to play special teams and defense, I'd say that blaming Fitz for the bulk of that loss is just nonsense. He played his part. He didn't own primary blame. But you've got your narrative which is pro-Geno and anti-Fitz, so no point in trying to convince you. Fitz is a decent QB, nothing more. That's a lot better than what we've seen from Geno, who has been an abomination in the regular season.

all were factors that contributed as did Fitz missing open WRs all day, making bad decisions, bad passes, etc...

 

I am not calling for Geno but geno has never played w/ talent like this so let's not forget that.

Edited by nyjunc
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Sanchez played well in 2009 and really well in 2010.  both years much better than the #s show.  In 2009 he had 4 atrocious games that skewed his #s, 15 of his 20 INTs came in those 4 games so he only had 5 in the other 11.

 

In 2010 he was a top 10 type QB, how many late game comebacks did he lead that year? and he was really good in both postseasons.

Ask Mark's teammates if they would agree with that. To suggest that he was a top-10 QB ever is just delusional.

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the funny thing is I LIKE Fitz, I am rooting for him.  His teammates seem to love him, he comes across great in interviews.  I want him to succeed but I want to win and I am happy we are 3-1 but he needs to play better as the sched gets tougher.  he has all the tools around him to succeed.

Nobody... literally NOBODY disagrees with this.

Nobody has said Fitz is playing great. 

I'm not sure at this point what some people are struggling with in this regard. It's quite possibly one of the biggest displays of arguing for the sake of arguing I've ever seen from this site.

So, I go back to what I've been saying... Jet fans need to learn how to win better. 

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Sanchez played well in 2009 and really well in 2010.  both years much better than the #s show.  In 2009 he had 4 atrocious games that skewed his #s, 15 of his 20 INTs came in those 4 games so he only had 5 in the other 11.

 

In 2010 he was a top 10 type QB, how many late game comebacks did he lead that year? and he was really good in both postseasons.

Uh, no, sorry need to stop you there. Mark Sanchez sucked in 2009. That defense was #1 in total defense, #1 in scoring defense, #1 in passing defense, #1 in passer rating against. Jets were #1 in rushing... And yet they went 9-7 only because Peyton Manning and co. didn't care about an undefeated season. That was a loaded team and Sanchez is the only reason we didn't win the SB.

In 2010 he was still 27th in passer rating, 26th in yards per attempt. Saying he was mediocre on a very talented team would be generous.

Why are you allowed to exclude Sanchez's bad games but we can't do the same for other QBs?

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Ask Mark's teammates if they would agree with that. To suggest that he was a top-10 QB ever is just delusional.

I have had the chance to speak to a few, they all felt he was unfairly criticized.

 

name me 10 better QBs in 2010?

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Uh, no, sorry need to stop you there. Mark Sanchez sucked in 2009. That defense was #1 in total defense, #1 in scoring defense, #1 in passing defense, #1 in passer rating against. Jets were #1 in rushing... And yet they went 9-7 only because Peyton Manning and co. didn't care about an undefeated season. That was a loaded team and Sanchez is the only reason we didn't win the SB.

In 2010 he was still 27th in passer rating, 26th in yards per attempt. Saying he was mediocre on a very talented team would be generous.

Why are you allowed to exclude Sanchez's bad games but we can't do the same for other QBs?

"Sanchez directly cost us 4 wins and a shot a home playoff game but those don't count because I said so."

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Peyton has had SB caliber talent around him almost his entire career, the reason he hasn't won more is b/c he gags every January.  the reason NE went from awful franchise to dynasty is b/c of tom Brady.

No he hasn't. I lived in Indy for a large portion of his career. He had a quality defense for one season, and they won it all. He didn't help matters by melting down in the playoffs, but it was usually because it was all on him. 

Teams that play complementary football, win. QBs don't win SBs. Teams do.

 

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I love people who still try to defend Sanchez.  0 of the 32 teams in the NFL think he can be a starter in this league.  Including the team that employs him currently.  Not even Rex Ryan attempted to acquire him in Buffalo when he probably could have been had for a bucket of balls.

Stick with defending Geno.  He has the body type and athleticism required of a QB, and only has 2 years of sample saying he's horrible, compared with 5 for Sanchez.  You'll still be wrong but at least your wrongness will be rooted in blind hope rather than willful ignorance of what is right in front of you.

 

Edited by Jetsfan80
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Peyton has had SB caliber talent around him almost his entire career, the reason he hasn't won more is b/c he gags every January.  the reason NE went from awful franchise to dynasty is b/c of tom Brady.

You just compared Ryan Fitzpatrick to Manning and Brady and you're calling me naive?

Having a good defense and pieces around you - doesn't mean you're good enough to win.  Bottom line, Jets can not and will not win a SuperBowl with Fitz as their starting QB...

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"Sanchez directly cost us 4 wins and a shot a home playoff game but those don't count because I said so."

he did? NE was 14-2, we were 11-5.  we would have had to win 3-4 more games(3 if we swept NE).

loss 1: Baltimore: O stunk, mark stunk BUT D allowed a ridiculous amount of 3rd and longs and allowd Bal to control clock for 40 mins as Rex was scared of the Bal D and our O was conservative.

loss 2: GB: shut out but weather was a factor and both O's struggled but I will give you that one.  that's 1

loss 3: 45-3 to NE, total team effort

loss 4: 10-6 to Miami.  O stunk, Mark stunk but had Holmes wide open w/ perfect throw in EZ and Holmes dropped TD in close loss.

loss 5: I think we scored 30 in that game at Chi.

 

MAYBE 2 games we can pin on him, that gets us to 13-3 and we still don't win division.

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You just compared Ryan Fitzpatrick to Manning and Brady and you're calling me naive?

Having a good defense and pieces around you - doesn't mean you're good enough to win.  Bottom line, Jets can not and will not win a SuperBowl with Fitz as their starting QB...

where did I do that?

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I love people who still try to defend Sanchez.  0 of the 32 teams in the NFL think he can be a starter in this league.  Including the team that employs him currently.  Not even Rex Ryan attempted to acquire him in Buffalo when he probably could have been had for a bucket of balls.

Stick with defending Geno.  He has the body type and athleticism required of a QB, and only has 2 years of sample saying he's horrible, compared with 5 for Sanchez.  You'll still be wrong but at least your wrongness will be rooted in blind hope rather than ignorance of what is right in front of you.

 

that would be incorrect, philly paid him before FA.  if he was a FA he'd be starting somewhere if they hadn't but starting on an awful team vs. knowing he will get a chance to start on a talented Philly team he chose Philly.

 

rex didn't have the chance, he was never a FA.

 

it's funny how fans think any QB can be carried to a title game.  do you understand how hard it is to reach 2 straight title games as a WC team w/ all 4 games on the road?

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Is anyone actually saying Fitz is playing well though? 

Even this most staunch supporters of the guy, like 80 and me, are saying he's playing like poopie... but poopie is still better than Geno, if poopie means he's not keeping us from winning. 

For me, it's like this...

Fitz = some bad QB play that doesn't keep us from winning = hope.

Geno = some bad QB play that has historically kept us from winning = giving up on the season.

Yes. When a thread topic is touting an "insanely high QBR" then yes, it is tantamount to saying he is playing well. Or do you think he created this thread to illustrate the flaws in the QBR statistic?

Again, this has nothing to do with Geno Smith or replacing Fitzpatrick with Smith, no matter how much some people want to make it about him, or take the position that anyone is suggesting Geno Smith is the solution to all our QB problems. A player - particularly one playing badly like Fitzpatrick - can be criticized for poor play even if his backup is also a bad player, and even if his backup is worse.

And I know you don't believe for a second that just Smith keeping us from winning. Otherwise we could have kept the same coaching staff and the same roster as last year (or the year before that), but merely replaced Smith with Fitzpatrick, and all would be just as good as it is today in Jets-land. That would be quite a Fitzmagic trick, particularly in light of this being the first winning team he's ever been a part of.

Fitzpatrick isn't the reason we're winning any more than Smith was the reason we were even as good as a .500 team when he was an atrocious and unready rookie QB on a team with no receivers, no Revis, etc. Nonsense. With a couple of obvious exceptions, the team won games despite Smith being the QB. And we are mostly winning games (mostly, by one), against struggling and/or vastly inferior teams I might add, despite Fitzpatrick right now. 

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Uh, no, sorry need to stop you there. Mark Sanchez sucked in 2009. That defense was #1 in total defense, #1 in scoring defense, #1 in passing defense, #1 in passer rating against. Jets were #1 in rushing... And yet they went 9-7 only because Peyton Manning and co. didn't care about an undefeated season. That was a loaded team and Sanchez is the only reason we didn't win the SB.

In 2010 he was still 27th in passer rating, 26th in yards per attempt. Saying he was mediocre on a very talented team would be generous.

Why are you allowed to exclude Sanchez's bad games but we can't do the same for other QBs?

Sorry, my memory isnt perfect but i do remember him putting together at least 4 forth quarter game winning drives.  He played like a rookie/2nd year QB and had his ups and downs. I had hoped he would continue to improve but in the end he sh!t the bed and my confidence in him was misplaced.  I am not including excluding anyones games as I wasnt comparing him to anyone, just stating what I saw from the guy for the 4 years he was our QB.

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No he hasn't. I lived in Indy for a large portion of his career. He had a quality defense for one season, and they won it all. He didn't help matters by melting down in the playoffs, but it was usually because it was all on him. 

Teams that play complementary football, win. QBs don't win SBs. Teams do.

 

His Ds in Indy and combined w/ den have allowed less pts in postseason than the supposed "great" Ne Ds Brady has had.  they have lost mostly b/c peyton doesn't play like reg season Peyton in January and the lone SB win the D played out of their minds while Peyton was mostly terrible outside of one half against NE.

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Exactly.

But, that's a difficult concept for SAR Edwards to understand.

Then you have trouble reading. What, in your opinion, does the title of this thread suggest? That Fitzpatrick is playing barely not-bad enough, or that he's playing noticeably above average?

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Sorry, my memory isnt perfect but i do remember him putting together at least 4 forth quarter game winning drives.  He played like a rookie/2nd year QB and had his ups and downs. I had hoped he would continue to improve but in the end he sh!t the bed and my confidence in him was misplaced.  I am not including excluding anyones games as I wasnt comparing him to anyone, just stating what I saw from the guy for the 4 years he was our QB.

more than that:

at den

at det

at Cle

Hou

at Indy(playoffs)

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Yes. When a thread topic is touting an "insanely high QBR" then yes, it is tantamount to saying he is playing well. Or do you think he created this thread to illustrate the flaws in the QBR statistic?

Again, this has nothing to do with Geno Smith or replacing Fitzpatrick with Smith, no matter how much some people want to make it about him, or take the position that anyone is suggesting Geno Smith is the solution to all our QB problems. A player - particularly one playing badly like Fitzpatrick - can be criticized for poor play even if his backup is also a bad player, and even if his backup is worse.

And I know you don't believe for a second that just Smith keeping us from winning. Otherwise we could have kept the same coaching staff and the same roster as last year (or the year before that), but merely replaced Smith with Fitzpatrick, and all would be just as good as it is today in Jets-land. That would be quite a Fitzmagic trick, particularly in light of this being the first winning team he's ever been a part of.

Fitzpatrick isn't the reason we're winning any more than Smith was the reason we were even as good as a .500 team when he was an atrocious and unready rookie QB on a team with no receivers, no Revis, etc. Nonsense. With a couple of obvious exceptions, the team won games despite Smith being the QB. And we are mostly winning games (mostly, by one), against struggling and/or vastly inferior teams I might add, despite Fitzpatrick right now. 

LOL

Way to sneak the Geno excuses in there in the last paragraph.

Your lips are so securely affixed to Geno's sack that you can't see straight.

Then again, given the view from down there, I don't blame you for looking cross eyed at the reality of the situation.

Edited by john461167
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I had high hopes for Sanchez after 09 and 10 that he would grow and improve. he didn't. for a rookie and 2nd year player i think he played reasonably well. problem is he is still the same guy years later

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