Hate to Admit it but Brady on Montana's Level

[ghost_in_pads02]

we are allowed to disagree.  In NE he did a poor job in 2000 then 2001 started like 2000 until things magically changed the moment Brady stepped on the field.

11-5 in 2008 w/ a creampuff sched w/ a team that was 16-0 a year earlier.  5 more losses is a lot.

he was on the hot seat before Brady came in, he was likely going to be fired after 2001.  there's no way they go on that run w/ Bledsoe.  He is a DC somewhere today if Brady doesn't save that season, save the franchise and save BB's HC career.

we can disagree, but how was he on the hot seat when that was only his 2nd year?? That makes no sense. Plus Kraft purposely went after BB after the whole Parcell's thing. Kraft knew he dropped the ball with Parcells leaving so he wasn't gonna make that mistake again. He was not on any hot seat.

[nyjunc]

we can disagree, but how was he on the hot seat when that was only his 2nd year?? That makes no sense. Plus Kraft purposely went after BB after the whole Parcell's thing. Kraft knew he dropped the ball with Parcells leaving so he wasn't gonna make that mistake again. He was not on any hot seat.

The Pats were a mess in 2000, their first losing season since 1995.  2001 they started off 0-2 including losing to the bengals who were always awful back then.  the fans were fed up already.  BB was ranked as the worst HC in the NFL by cbssports.com going into that season.  there were rumblings he was already on the hot seat and then Brady came in and changed everything.

[Savage69]

we are allowed to disagree.  In NE he did a poor job in 2000 then 2001 started like 2000 until things magically changed the moment Brady stepped on the field.

11-5 in 2008 w/ a creampuff sched w/ a team that was 16-0 a year earlier.  5 more losses is a lot.

he was on the hot seat before Brady came in, he was likely going to be fired after 2001.  there's no way they go on that run w/ Bledsoe.  He is a DC somewhere today if Brady doesn't save that season, save the franchise and save BB's HC career.

Better then that the Fins added Chad in 2008 and won 10 more games then 2007 and won the East..

[nyjunc]

Better then that the Fins added Chad in 2008 and won 10 more games then 2007 and won the East..

yep, and we got Favred

[ghost_in_pads02]

The Pats were a mess in 2000, their first losing season since 1995.  2001 they started off 0-2 including losing to the bengals who were always awful back then.  the fans were fed up already.  BB was ranked as the worst HC in the NFL by cbssports.com going into that season.  there were rumblings he was already on the hot seat and then Brady came in and changed everything.

Man, you couldn't be anymore wrong. He was not on any hot seat. Not in only his sec. year following the Pete Carroll horrible coaching stint, and after the mistake of letting Parcell's leave. Kraft had said many a times, BB was who he always wanted after Parcells. I almost say show me prove of him being on the hot seat, but I know that would be hard. I believe fans weren't happy, cause we are fans, but BB was not on any hot seat, and Brady did not save his coaching career. That is a horrible assumption because you are saying that he is only a great/HOF coach because of Brady. Not true.

[nyjunc]

Man, you couldn't be anymore wrong. He was not on any hot seat. Not in only his sec. year following the Pete Carroll horrible coaching stint, and after the mistake of letting Parcell's leave. Kraft had said many a times, BB was who he always wanted after Parcells. I almost say show me prove of him being on the hot seat, but I know that would be hard. I believe fans weren't happy, cause we are fans, but BB was not on any hot seat, and Brady did not save his coaching career. That is a horrible assumption because you are saying that he is only a great/HOF coach because of Brady. Not true.

there were already rumblings about his job early in 2001.

Pete Carroll's horrible stint looked great compared to pre-Brady BB.

 

you are confusing what I have said.  I said there may not be a more brilliant coach in the history of the game but being a HC is about more than x's and o's and he didn't understand that yet at that point.  Brady coming in and winning took the pressure off Bb and allowed him to develop into a great HC.  No Brady and he's a DC somewhere today.  that doesn't mean he isn't great but he wasn't at that time.

[The Crusher]

ha ha...you all are some cruel bastards toward each other....lol

Or we may have some inside jokes among ourselves.  Conspiracy?

[PatriotReign37]

Montana was a cheater?

You must mean Tony Montana.

[ghost_in_pads02]

there were already rumblings about his job early in 2001.

Pete Carroll's horrible stint looked great compared to pre-Brady BB.

 

you are confusing what I have said.  I said there may not be a more brilliant coach in the history of the game but being a HC is about more than x's and o's and he didn't understand that yet at that point.  Brady coming in and winning took the pressure off Bb and allowed him to develop into a great HC.  No Brady and he's a DC somewhere today.  that doesn't mean he isn't great but he wasn't at that time.

I understood what you said, and I think your assessment  is wrong. I'm willing to bet any player that had played for him would tell you, you are wrong too. Xs and Os,, managing your players and coaching staff is the main point of being a NFL head coach. Brady didn't make this man's career, helped it definitely, but not make it, and i'm talking even after the first superbowl.

as you are applying that, than you are saying every coach who has had a great QB. That QB made their career. I don't believe that is true.

 

you mention J.Gibbs and his multiple championships with diff. coaches, when he came back to the redskins (a few years ago) he wasn't good, J.Johnson wasn't good in Miami... so these coaches aren't HOFers without the teams they had? (And I know you aren't saying BB is not a HOFer.....)

[nyjunc]

I understood what you said, and I think your assessment  is wrong. I'm willing to bet any player that had played for him would tell you, you are wrong too. Xs and Os,, managing your players and coaching staff is the main point of being a NFL head coach. Brady didn't make this man's career, helped it definitely, but not make it, and i'm talking even after the first superbowl.

as you are applying that, than you are saying every coach who has had a great QB. That QB made their career. I don't believe that is true.

 

you mention J.Gibbs and his multiple championships with diff. coaches, when he came back to the redskins (a few years ago) he wasn't good, J.Johnson wasn't good in Miami... so these coaches aren't HOFers without the teams they had? (And I know you aren't saying BB is not a HOFer.....)

he was a total failure in Cleveland and was heading sown the same path in NE.

when Gibbs came back to the redskins he led them to 2 postseasons in 4 years which is incredible in the Dan Snyder era.

Jimmy made his career based on the Herschel trade and what he did in the draft.  no one considers him an all time great coach.

 

I am saying BB is an all time great HC but if not for Brady he never has the chance to develop into an all time great HC.

[UnitedWhofans]

Darren RovellVerified account ‏@darrenrovell  17h17 hours ago

Tom Brady's career record at home thru tonight: vs Dolphins (13-1), vs Bills (12-1) & vs Jets (11-2)

[nyjunc]

Darren RovellVerified account ‏@darrenrovell  17h17 hours ago

Tom Brady's career record at home thru tonight: vs Dolphins (13-1), vs Bills (12-1) & vs Jets (11-2)

Chad pennington as a jet vs. Brady led Pats in NE was 2-2.  I assume that must be the highest win % for any opposing QB in the Brady era w/ a minimum of 3 starts.

[prime21]

Debating who is better all time in any sport will always get into the discussion of era, rules, rings, etc.   Lets pose the question this way instead.  If you are starting a franchise and can have any QB you want who would you take.  Can you make a case for not picking Brady 1st? (besides cheating, lol).   He has all the tools and has excelled with so many different WR's and often no running game.

I think I would pick him 1st.

[Hael]

Debating who is better all time in any sport will always get into the discussion of era, rules, rings, etc.   Lets pose the question this way instead.  If you are starting a franchise and can have any QB you want who would you take.  Can you make a case for not picking Brady 1st? (besides cheating, lol).   He has all the tools and has excelled with so many different WR's and often no running game.

I think I would pick him 1st.

Hard question.  The reason Brady is an excellent answer is that he takes about 7 million per year less than the Mannings and Rogers of the world.  In terms of value for your dollar it's hard to find anyone in the salary cap era that even competes with that level.

for my money Montana was the best qb I've ever seen play, Brady is a very very close second and I think when all is said and done, Rogers will be third.

[ghost_in_pads02]

Or we may have some inside jokes among ourselves.  Conspiracy?

i figured that already (inside joke)

[Larz]

ever hear of the montana rule ?  remember when he would get flattened by the giants and the NFL changed the rules ?

yeah, me neither. 

put monatana in this game with the rules favoring WR's, and he throws for 6,000 yards and 45 TD's

put brady in the 80's and she becomes a kicker

[CTM]

Hard question.  The reason Brady is an excellent answer is that he takes about 7 million per year less than the Mannings and Rogers of the world.  In terms of value for your dollar it's hard to find anyone in the salary cap era that even competes with that level.

for my money Montana was the best qb I've ever seen play, Brady is a very very close second and I think when all is said and done, Rogers will be third.

Rodgers is the best I've ever seen in terms of raw talent, he doesn't have the resume yet of some of the other guys though. I know many people think it's silly to grade QB's on W/L's but every year without fail teams with good QB's are in the playoffs and teams with bad QB's are picking top 10. 

[Savage69]

ever hear of the montana rule ?  remember when he would get flattened by the giants and the NFL changed the rules ?

yeah, me niether. 

put monatana in this game with the rules favoring WR's, and he throws for 6,000 yards and 45 TD's

put brady in the 80's and she becomes a kicker

The most td's Montana ever had in a season was 31 and he had a pretty good W/R you may have heard of him.. And that was when Marino was throwing 48 tds to smurfs.. Montana was called Joe Cool because he never panicked but he never had a gunslinger arm.. Vinny has more passing yardage then Montana..

[Larz]

The most td's Montana ever had in a season was 31 and he had a pretty good W/R you may have heard of him.. And that was when Marino was throwing 48 tds to smurfs.. Montana was called Joe Cool because he never panicked but he never had a gunslinger arm.. Vinny has more passing yardage then Montana..

thanks.  I actually have google

[section314]

Love him or hate him(as most of us do) Brady is so much better than Montana it's not funny.

[PatsFanTX]

Love him or hate him(as most of us do) Brady is so much better than Montana it's not funny.

That is so true.

[joewilly12]

 

That is so true.

 

 

Welcome back Brady is the best no denying like him or not cant take away from his talent 

[Savage69]

thanks.  I actually have google

Then I can assume this isn't from google you just pulled it from your butt...put montana in this game with the rules favoring WR's, and he throws for 6,000 yards and 45 TD's 

[bealeb319]

Brady is on a level all by himself, and it's slightly higher than Montana's.

Based off your maturity level I think it is safe to assume you have never seen Montana play.

[Scott99]

Hi ladies and gents, Pat's fan coming in peace. Very interesting thread and some great comments from everyone.

Though I'm a Pat's fan, and have been one since 1975, I don't have tunnel vision, I'm a football fan as well and have been watching the NFL for many years. It has always been my contention that Joe Montana is the greatest QB I've ever seen. You can't argue with 4-0 in SBs and 11 tds vs ZERO Ints, that's just incredible. I think the 49ers destruction of the Broncos was the most perfect QB play I've ever seen in the SB by any QB. 

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I have to say kudos to Jet's fans, even the haters rank Brady as one of the all time greats (some of you say he's the greatest, mind blown). I have a ton of respect for the Jet's and the Jet's fans.

One subject I wanted to bring up is cheating. Regardless of what I say, there will be some who will never change their minds, nor never do the research no matter what. There are others with open minds that may listen.

There is a lot of misinformation out there, and I will only try to relate facts. These are facts that I believe can not be refuted, no matter your hatred. 

The Pats have been penalized for cheating in ONE game. Let's look at that. Spygate. The Pats were penalized for filming the Jet's defensive signals in game 1 of the 2007 season. That is a fact. No ifs ands or buts. Another fact is, this was not AGAINST THE RULES until the 2007 season. Therefore, to say anything the Pats did as far as winning championships from 2001-2004 is tainted is factually incorrect. You can put all the asterisks you want, but if they were filming signals from 2000-2006, there are no penalties for ANY team that did that. Jimmy Johnson claimed he did that his whole career, John Madden mentioned this was common practice (mentioned during one of his game broadcasts). This was normal operating procedure up until the the start of the 2007 season. 

So let's go to the burning/bombing/incinerating/burying of the tapes by that HUGE Pat's fan Goodell. Those tapes don't matter. Let me repeat that, those tapes don't matter, because it wasn't against the rules until 2007, the investigation happened after game one of the 2007 season. Any tapes prior to the 2007 DON'T MATTER. As far as the alleged taping of the Rams practice prior to the SB, this has been refuted dozens of times, even by the newspaper that started that rumor, and by the so-called source.

Ok, let's go to that farce Deflategate. Like I said earlier, there is A LOT of misinformation out there. All you had to do was read what ESPN said (footballs were 2 pounds under), and then read the Wells report to see ESPN was incorrect, yet never corrected their misinformation. Also, in the Wells Report, they show the numbers (which wants 2 pounds under, which is impossible since a football doesn't even weigh a pound). Also, if you take the Wells report as gospel (most people do including ESPN and Goodell), it clearly states they don't have ANY proof anyone deflated any footballs, and NFL's lawyers ADMITTED THIS TO A JUDGE IN A COURTROOM. These are facts. Facts the NFL tried to use, and failed miserably. Wording from the Wells report was used by the Judge to vacate Brady's suspension. Also, the gauge the NFL tried to use that showed Patriot's footballs weren't up to NFL approved levels (11 of 12 footballs) was used to test the Colt's footballs, and 3 out of 4 of THEIR footballs weren't up to approved levels. This is fact according to the Wells report. Question needs to be asked, why weren't the rest of the Colt's 8 footballs checked ?

So you can say the Pats and Brady cheated by deflating footballs to get a competitive edge, but the NFL hasn't been able to prove that, and even if you argue Brady's appeal was only about the suspension, I agree with that. But it still came out in a court in front of a judge, as stated by an NFL lawyer, that the NFL has NO PROOF that anyone deflated any footballs. That is a fact that can not be refuted, it is in black and white. 

I can provide a ton more facts, but this response is long enough. I appreciate any comments, and like I said, respect the Jets and Jet's fans. I've even defended the Jets several times on Pat's boards. In summary, I'll gladly accept Brady as the #2 QB of all time and agree with a lot of you guys that Montana is the best I've ever seen.

[PatsFanTX]

Oh-oh, this will not be pretty.

[Savage69]

 

I can provide a ton more facts, but this response is long enough. I appreciate any comments, and like I said, respect the Jets and Jet's fans. I've even defended the Jets several times on Pat's boards. In summary, I'll gladly accept Brady as the #2 QB of all time and agree with a lot of you guys that Montana is the best I've ever seen.

I think Brady is for 2 reasons.. 1 After Montana left for KC the 49'ers kept rolling and still made the playoffs and won a bowl.. You take Brady off the Pats and Chad and the Fins make the playoffs over the Pats.. And the 2007 and 2011 Giants were 10-6 and 9-7 teams BB should have rested players after he clinched but his ego wouldn't let him do it.. The Giants played way over their heads like the Jets did beating the Steelers last year some days nothing goes right..LOL

[JetPotato]

Hi ladies and gents, Pat's fan coming in peace. Very interesting thread and some great comments from everyone.

Though I'm a Pat's fan, and have been one since 1975, I don't have tunnel vision, I'm a football fan as well and have been watching the NFL for many years. It has always been my contention that Joe Montana is the greatest QB I've ever seen. You can't argue with 4-0 in SBs and 11 tds vs ZERO Ints, that's just incredible. I think the 49ers destruction of the Broncos was the most perfect QB play I've ever seen in the SB by any QB. 

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I have to say kudos to Jet's fans, even the haters rank Brady as one of the all time greats (some of you say he's the greatest, mind blown). I have a ton of respect for the Jet's and the Jet's fans.

One subject I wanted to bring up is cheating. Regardless of what I say, there will be some who will never change their minds, nor never do the research no matter what. There are others with open minds that may listen.

There is a lot of misinformation out there, and I will only try to relate facts. These are facts that I believe can not be refuted, no matter your hatred. 

The Pats have been penalized for cheating in ONE game. Let's look at that. Spygate. The Pats were penalized for filming the Jet's defensive signals in game 1 of the 2007 season. That is a fact. No ifs ands or buts. Another fact is, this was not AGAINST THE RULES until the 2007 season. Therefore, to say anything the Pats did as far as winning championships from 2001-2004 is tainted is factually incorrect. You can put all the asterisks you want, but if they were filming signals from 2000-2006, there are no penalties for ANY team that did that. Jimmy Johnson claimed he did that his whole career, John Madden mentioned this was common practice (mentioned during one of his game broadcasts). This was normal operating procedure up until the the start of the 2007 season. 

So let's go to the burning/bombing/incinerating/burying of the tapes by that HUGE Pat's fan Goodell. Those tapes don't matter. Let me repeat that, those tapes don't matter, because it wasn't against the rules until 2007, the investigation happened after game one of the 2007 season. Any tapes prior to the 2007 DON'T MATTER. As far as the alleged taping of the Rams practice prior to the SB, this has been refuted dozens of times, even by the newspaper that started that rumor, and by the so-called source.

Ok, let's go to that farce Deflategate. Like I said earlier, there is A LOT of misinformation out there. All you had to do was read what ESPN said (footballs were 2 pounds under), and then read the Wells report to see ESPN was incorrect, yet never corrected their misinformation. Also, in the Wells Report, they show the numbers (which wants 2 pounds under, which is impossible since a football doesn't even weigh a pound). Also, if you take the Wells report as gospel (most people do including ESPN and Goodell), it clearly states they don't have ANY proof anyone deflated any footballs, and NFL's lawyers ADMITTED THIS TO A JUDGE IN A COURTROOM. These are facts. Facts the NFL tried to use, and failed miserably. Wording from the Wells report was used by the Judge to vacate Brady's suspension. Also, the gauge the NFL tried to use that showed Patriot's footballs weren't up to NFL approved levels (11 of 12 footballs) was used to test the Colt's footballs, and 3 out of 4 of THEIR footballs weren't up to approved levels. This is fact according to the Wells report. Question needs to be asked, why weren't the rest of the Colt's 8 footballs checked ?

So you can say the Pats and Brady cheated by deflating footballs to get a competitive edge, but the NFL hasn't been able to prove that, and even if you argue Brady's appeal was only about the suspension, I agree with that. But it still came out in a court in front of a judge, as stated by an NFL lawyer, that the NFL has NO PROOF that anyone deflated any footballs. That is a fact that can not be refuted, it is in black and white. 

I can provide a ton more facts, but this response is long enough. I appreciate any comments, and like I said, respect the Jets and Jet's fans. I've even defended the Jets several times on Pat's boards. In summary, I'll gladly accept Brady as the #2 QB of all time and agree with a lot of you guys that Montana is the best I've ever seen.

lol.

Facts.

Just lol.

I wonder if it will ever occur to people like this how stupid they sound. I think my favorite was "a ball can't decrease 2 pounds per square inch because a ball doesn't even weigh a pound". 

Did you even graduate from 8th grade?

 

[HessStation]

Earlier in his career he won because of the team around him. He was basically at a Russell Wilson level. It seems around when Moss got there and then when he left, Brady took his game to another level. He's definitely one of the greatest quarterbacks ever.

[Scott99]

I think Brady is for 2 reasons.. 1 After Montana left for KC the 49'ers kept rolling and still made the playoffs and won a bowl.. You take Brady off the Pats and Chad and the Fins make the playoffs over the Pats.. And the 2007 and 2011 Giants were 10-6 and 9-7 teams BB should have rested players after he clinched but his ego wouldn't let him do it.. The Giants played way over their heads like the Jets did beating the Steelers last year some days nothing does right..LOL

Good points. Bottom line, the Giants were the better team in both games. In 2007, the attacked the Pat's main weakness, their O-Line. Very smart game plan. In 2011, they were just a better team, the Pats were nowhere as good as in 2007. 

I was at that Steelers game last year. My mom is a HUGE Jet's fan and I try to take her to a game every year.

[Scott99]

Earlier in his career he won because of the team around him. He was basically at a Russell Wilson level. It seems around when Moss got there and then when he left, Brady took his game to another level. He's definitely one of the greatest quarterbacks ever.

You're right, early in his career he was at Russell Wilson caliber, a good game manager with a good running game and defense, especially his first season. But I think he started to become really good in his SECOND season. They drafted Deion Branch who paired up with Troy Brown, and the first 3 games of the 2002 season was a bombs away attitude. Branch got injured and they seemed to go back to being a running team (Brady got hurt too but kept playing and led the NFL in TD passes). 

2006 was a pretty amazing season for Brady, horrible weapons and an aging banged up defense, but he still got them to the AFCCG (Colts won). 

He really took off in 2007. 

 

[Scott99]

lol.

Facts.

Just lol. 

I wonder if it will ever occur to people like this how stupid they sound. I think my favorite was "a ball can't decrease 2 pounds per square inch because a ball doesn't even weigh a pound". 

Did you even graduate from 8th grade?

 

please re-read, you are misquoting me, because I never said "a ball can't decrease 2 pounds per square inch because a ball doesn't even weigh a pound." I said 2 pounds under not 2 pounds per square inch under. Trust me, us Pat's fans understand the difference after 6 months of bullsh*t. 

I appreciate your response though and if you have any "facts" you can provide that refute the "facts" I've stated, I'd more than welcome them. It would help me get past my 7th grade education level. 

[JetPotato]

please re-read, you are misquoting me, because I never said "a ball can't decrease 2 pounds per square inch because a ball doesn't even weigh a pound." I said 2 pounds under not 2 pounds per square inch under. Trust me, us Pat's fans understand the difference after 6 months of bullsh*t. 

I appreciate your response though and if you have any "facts" you can provide that refute the "facts" I've stated, I'd more than welcome them. It would help me get past my 7th grade education level. 

you probably should be the one doing the re-reading. It's obvious you don't have even a basic understanding of any of the Wells Report or appeal. If you were using Deflategate as a lesson on the difference between weight and pressure, that's a bad starting point.

[Scott99]

you probably should be the one doing the re-reading. It's obvious you don't have even a basic understanding of any of the Wells Report or appeal. If you were using Deflategate as a lesson on the difference between weight and pressure, that's a bad starting point.

Actually, I read the full Wells Report unlike most people. Most people read the ESPN headlines and took them as gospel. I have complete understanding of that report and its complete disregard of the Ideal Gas Law which I hope to learn some day if I ever get to 9th grade.

Bottom line is, Deflategate or Framegate, or Stupidgate or whatever you want to call it was a witch hunt which was exposed in a court of law by a judge. The NFL is 0-5 in court, soon to be 0-6. If you can't see that the NFL leadership (what an oxymoron) is corrupt, hell Goodell had to go to another court case during Deflategate for contempt, against HIM. 

Another funny thing that just kills me, is fans think Goodell is in bed with Kraft, and the Pats get preferential treatment because of it. Goodell has crushed Kraft by taking high draft choices and millions of dollars, and the only reason they got a #1 pick from the Pats THIS time, is because Kraft is a wussy and bent over royally. He knew the NFL had no proof and still backed down. A lot of Pats fans realize it's all because he doesn't want Goodell as an enemy and wants a Super Bowl in Gillette. It's all about not making waves, money, and the SB at Gillette. Goodell obviously hates Kraft and the Pats.

[JetPotato]

Actually, I read the full Wells Report unlike most people. Most people read the ESPN headlines and took them as gospel. I have complete understanding of that report and its complete disregard of the Ideal Gas Law which I hope to learn some day if I ever get to 9th grade.

Bottom line is, Deflategate or Framegate, or Stupidgate or whatever you want to call it was a witch hunt which was exposed in a court of law by a judge. The NFL is 0-5 in court, soon to be 0-6. If you can't see that the NFL leadership (what an oxymoron) is corrupt, hell Goodell had to go to another court case during Deflategate for contempt, against HIM. 

Another funny thing that just kills me, is fans think Goodell is in bed with Kraft, and the Pats get preferential treatment because of it. Goodell has crushed Kraft by taking high draft choices and millions of dollars, and the only reason they got a #1 pick from the Pats THIS time, is because Kraft is a wussy and bent over royally. He knew the NFL had no proof and still backed down. A lot of Pats fans realize it's all because he doesn't want Goodell as an enemy and wants a Super Bowl in Gillette. It's all about not making waves, money, and the SB at Gillette. Goodell obviously hates Kraft and the Pats.

If you did indeed read it (with help I assume), it's obvious you did so with an eye of searching for things to exonerate wrongdoing from people who wear a uniform you like. Your posts here are so chock full of logical breakdowns, ludicrous assumptions and flat-out incorrect statements, it's not really even worth continuing a conversation with you. I think if you had the mental capacity for it, I'm pretty sure you'd be embarrassed about what a fool you're making of yourself.