Making a Murderer

[CTM]

Most of them are.

Good point, lol

[CTM]

I over-sensationalized OP to get, what I hoped would be, some passionate response/conversation around the murder. And tbh, I was somewhat disappointed that more people didn't partake, I thought more people would have watched it. But listening to two (more well informed) sides argue over a topic is usually a pretty good way to help form a more credible opinion of your own...imo. Yeah.  For example Bugg was able to shed more light on the case which prompted me to look further into it.  As opposed to ML, who's too busy admiring his own intelligence, TOm, who should be put to sleep or evil incarnate such as yourself. ***High5z JiF

I think Nancy Grace shed a lot of light on the Avery is guilty side, although i don't like her. Ultimately I'd love to believe that the cops had this huge conspiracy in play, but Occam's Razor would suggest that Avery did it. 

[JohnnyHector]

 

Ultimately I'd love to believe that the cops had this huge conspiracy in play, but Occam's Razor would suggest that Avery did it. 

These are not mutually exclusive propositions.

And if Occam's Razor was involved, Lenk or Colburn probably planted it there.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

But listening to two (more well informed) sides argue over a topic is usually a pretty good way to help form a more credible opinion of your own...imo. Yeah.  For example Bugg was able to shed more light on the case which prompted me to look further into it.  As opposed to ML, who's too busy admiring his own intelligence

Too busy admiring my own intelligence to do what exactly?

[CTM]

Too busy admiring my own intelligence to do what exactly?

bathe?

[CTM]

These are not mutually exclusive propositions.

And if Occam's Razor was involved, Lenk or Colburn probably planted it there.

True, but I used the word huge to imply they planted all of the evidence. If they planted all of the evidence, it's more likely then not Avery is innocent. I believe it's likely they planted that key for sure, not so sure about the bones and blood

[HessStation]

 

Too busy admiring my own intelligence to do what exactly?

Converse with laymen.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Converse with laymen.

I'm doing that so clearly I'm not too busy. I just don't understand why this case. Never understood how Mumia became the poster child for the wrongfully convicted either. These ****ers are all guilty as sh*t. It doesn't take a law degree to spot the real travesties.

[HessStation]

I'm doing that so clearly I'm not too busy. I just don't understand why this case. Never understood how Mumia became the poster child for the wrongfully convicted either. These ****ers are all guilty as sh*t. It doesn't take a law degree to spot the real travesties.

Are you saying there's no wrongfully accused men or women sitting behind bars or are you trying to state, in a more universal sense, that we're all guilty of something, karma's a bitch, sort of thing? Because in just Ep 1 alone, we know Steve Avery was wrongfully convicting of rape and spent 18 years in jail for someone else's crime. We can all agree he was white trash dirt but that didn't make him a rapist... nor murderer. 

[#27TheDominator]

Four pages and the most astonishing thing to me is that a filthy hippie just accused someone else of not bathing!

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Are you saying there's no wrongfully accused men or women sitting behind bars or are you trying to state, in a more universal sense, that we're all guilty of something, karma's a bitch, sort of thing? Because in just Ep 1 alone, we know Steve Avery was wrongfully convicting of rape and spent 18 years in jail for someone else's crime. We can all agree he was white trash dirt but that didn't make him a rapist... nor murderer. 

All as in all those mentioned. Avery, the kid, and Mumia. It's a statistical fact that there are lots of wrongfully convicted people rotting in the can. The issue here is one of values. Rather let a hundred guilty men go free than send somebody innocent to jail and whatnot. Because if you just look at it in terms of getting it right as frequently as possible the system is the best there is or ever has been.

[HessStation]

All as in all those mentioned. Avery, the kid, and Mumia. It's a statistical fact that there are lots of wrongfully convicted people rotting in the can. The issue here is one of values. Rather let a hundred guilty men go free than send somebody innocent to jail and whatnot. Because if you just look at it in terms of getting it right as frequently as possible the system is the best there is or ever has been.

Whoa, I can actually understand and agree with you without having to use google.

[Snell41]

True, but I used the word huge to imply they planted all of the evidence. If they planted all of the evidence, it's more likely then not Avery is innocent. I believe it's likely they planted that key for sure, not so sure about the bones and blood

This is what makes the most sense to me. I don't doubt the cops went over the line to pin Avery. In fact they went way over the line. But I think they had quite a bit on Avery and went over the line to ensure he doesn't get away with it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CTM]

All as in all those mentioned. Avery, the kid, and Mumia. It's a statistical fact that there are lots of wrongfully convicted people rotting in the can. The issue here is one of values. Rather let a hundred guilty men go free than send somebody innocent to jail and whatnot. Because if you just look at it in terms of getting it right as frequently as possible the system is the best there is or ever has been.

Never researched this, but of the wrongfully convicted, how many of them were formerly upstanding citizens? For example, I have to imagine a suburban father, with no priors, who goes to work and comes home and helps his kid with home work is far less likely to be wrongfully convicted of a major crime than a 24 yo male, with a long rap sheet who spends his nights in bars with a rough crowd and has some kind of drug addiction.

More specifically, lets assume everything is true about Avery, he showed aggressiveness/cruelty towards women/animals at a young age, had other petty crimes, was wrongfully convicted of rape and when released did the unthinkable and rape, tortured and murdered that girl despite on the verge of a financial windfall.

Would you still prefer 100 guilty men go free then 1 innocent go to jail if that innocent is a dude like Avery?

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

 

Never researched this, but of the wrongfully convicted, how many of them were formerly upstanding citizens? For example, I have to imagine a suburban father, with no priors, who goes to work and comes home and helps his kid with home work is far less likely to be wrongfully convicted of a major crime than a 24 yo male, with a long rap sheet who spends his nights in bars with a rough crowd and has some kind of drug addiction.

More specifically, lets assume everything is true about Avery, he showed aggressiveness/cruelty towards women/animals at a young age, had other petty crimes, was wrongfully convicted of rape and when released did the unthinkable and rape, tortured and murdered that girl despite on the verge of a financial windfall.

Would you still prefer 100 guilty men go free then 1 innocent go to jail if that innocent is a dude like Avery?

I didn't say that was my view. But whether it is one's view or not (obviously this is a matter of degrees) is basically what drives outcomes here. My position is that, yeah, I'd like to believe that, but I don't. Whether it's Avery or a middle aged 'former' pothead or an actual upstanding citizen, I'm gonna take 100-1 all day and feel pretty good about it. I think this is pretty much how the system works too. As with anything else efficacy trumps principle at the margins.

[Snell41]

I didn't say that was my view. But whether it is one's view or not (obviously this is a matter of degrees) is basically what drives outcomes here. My position is that, yeah, I'd like to believe that, but I don't. Whether it's Avery or a middle aged 'former' pothead or an actual upstanding citizen, I'm gonna take 100-1 all day and feel pretty good about it. I think this is pretty much how the system works too. As with anything else efficacy trumps principle at the margins.

I love that you said efficacy. And principle at the margins...... My loins quiver!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CTM]

I didn't say that was my view. But whether it is one's view or not (obviously this is a matter of degrees) is basically what drives outcomes here. My position is that, yeah, I'd like to believe that, but I don't. Whether it's Avery or a middle aged 'former' pothead or an actual upstanding citizen, I'm gonna take 100-1 all day and feel pretty good about it. I think this is pretty much how the system works too. As with anything else efficacy trumps principle at the margins.

I see what you did there

douche

[RaoulDuke]

you see it time and time again in these cases where law enforcement ignores evidence, ignores leads when it contradicts the story they have settled on and the person they have pined the crime on.

I recommend everyone listening to season 1 of the Serial podcast.

I followed your recommendation, really well done, and pretty fair reporting IMO.

Helped during my 1 hour commutes...

[HighPitch]

Im on episode 3 or 4. Like many, i want to take a bat to several members of that police dept and that horrible idiotic lawyer that screwed the kid.

i dont care about the stupid gf, the allegations of abuse or even the cat. Sure steven is not a winner but he didnt do sh*t. The corruption in the whole system is appalling. Theres no doubt the whole thing was staged! I know some of you mention the stuff left out by the producers that make him look more guilty but sorry buying shackles proves nothing.

there is far more proof that he was framed. Its just outrageous.

and as for the girl......i doubt the cops killed her but she went missing. The probably found her already murdered or maybe dead from an anyurism or something. Very convenient to burn the body so wed never know.

 

i think the thing that is most shocking to me is the general low level of intelligence of that entire town. The averys were sure dumb....i mean the kid has an iq of 72 which is almost retarded. The mom is just a bit sharper but useless. But what about everyone else? I mean the chief saying that they could have killed avery more easily than frame him, the dumb judge, the dumb public defender.....everyone is just dumb. Not to mention skanky and butt ugly

Btw did you notice how unprofessional the cops were while they videotaped evidence in the house? The obviously showed their hatred of steven and there pleasure in snooping. Man f the police. Big time

[JetPotato]

On 1/16/2016 at 11:00 AM, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Everything is debatable.

Even this statement?

[CTM]

On February 2, 2016 at 11:44 PM, HighPitch said:

Im on episode 3 or 4. Like many, i want to take a bat to several members of that police dept and that horrible idiotic lawyer that screwed the kid.

i dont care about the stupid gf, the allegations of abuse or even the cat. Sure steven is not a winner but he didnt do sh*t. The corruption in the whole system is appalling. Theres no doubt the whole thing was staged! I know some of you mention the stuff left out by the producers that make him look more guilty but sorry buying shackles proves nothing.

there is far more proof that he was framed. Its just outrageous.

and as for the girl......i doubt the cops killed her but she went missing. The probably found her already murdered or maybe dead from an anyurism or something. Very convenient to burn the body so wed never know.

 

i think the thing that is most shocking to me is the general low level of intelligence of that entire town. The averys were sure dumb....i mean the kid has an iq of 72 which is almost retarded. The mom is just a bit sharper but useless. But what about everyone else? I mean the chief saying that they could have killed avery more easily than frame him, the dumb judge, the dumb public defender.....everyone is just dumb. Not to mention skanky and butt ugly

Btw did you notice how unprofessional the cops were while they videotaped evidence in the house? The obviously showed their hatred of steven and there pleasure in snooping. Man f the police. Big time

you've come to some very definitive conclusions for not even knowing whether you've seen 3 or 4 episodes (out of 10)

[Snell41]

1 hour ago, CTM said:

you've come to some very definitive conclusions for not even knowing whether you've seen 3 or 4 episodes (out of 10)

Right!!?!?  I was thinking the same thing!

[ylekram]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 11:49 AM, Snell41 said:

 

 

 

 

Why did the documentary omit that Avery had allegedly molested his nephew? Why did it omit that the victim had specifically asked to not be assigned to an Avery request? Why did they omit that she was made uncomfortable because he would answer the door in only a towel? Why did they omit that the gun that fired the bullet usually hangs over his bed? Why did they omit that he had purchased iron shackles, however they too could no longer be found. Why did they omit that his DNA was also found on the hood latch of the RAV4, corroborating the statement that his nephew said that he disconnected the battery. Oh and that cat he killed, it wasn't a messing around toss it on the fire accidentally thing. Witnesses say he doused it in Oil and tossed it in the flames deliverately.

 

Here's a far more likely scenario-he did it, cops knew he did it, and they did horribly unscrupulous things to bolster their case. That in itself is horrifying. But it doesn't take away from the fact he did it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

i have also watched the series. after watching the series, i was left with many questions. i went on to scour the internet for any and all information about this case. i have read every peice of testimony, watched. every minute of avery and brendons interogation, basically have read or watched every peice that is out there. if it is out there, i have watched or read it.

as much as you are convinced that avery is guilty, i also have my doubts about averys innocence. but i am no more than 50/50 at this point. there is plent of reasonable doubt,imo

now on to your points

1. steven avery molesting his nephew

the way most people took it is that avery molested brendan when he was younger. keep in mind, avery was in jail when brendan was born untill brenden was atleast 14 years old. and if you beleive brendan is innocent, well you know he has a tendency to say things that are just not true. thats all i got on this one

2.  avery made teresa uncomfortable/ wore a towel to answer door/ she asked not to go back to the averys

yea, avery is a creepy dude. most people get that. and his reputation around town was as such. what other evidence and or statements suggests why teresa felt unfomfortable around avery besides the towel incident? there is none. there have been a few times during my life when i answered the door wearing only a towel. i am sure many have. the appointment was made and she knowingly when to the avery property to take the pictures. she had her own protaghrapy business and was quiting the auto trader job soon.

3. the gun that fired the bullet.

it was never proven that averys gun fired the bullet. testimony from the states witness states that the bullet was probably fired from the gun but cannot be certain. and thats if you beleive the bullet found was actually used to shoot teresa. it was found months later, after being thuroughly searched, on multiple occassions, only to be found by an officer who was not suppossed to be part of the investigation in the first place, and who also had much to gain if avery was convicted. on top of that, anybody with 2 eyes can see that the garage was not part of the crime scene at all. begging the question. how did the bullet get into the garage?

4. averys restraints

the restraints WERE  found and were fully tested. there were 2 sets of dna found on the restraints. both excluded teresas dna. when asked about the restraints, avery admitted to the purchase and said they were used to spice up he and jodi's sex life. jodi has confirmed this

5. dna on hood latch

once again, evidence that was found months later after many searches. evidence technicions admitted to touching other parts of the car containing averys dna, while not switching gloves. entirely possible and probable that this was contact dna

6. cat burning

as horrible and diliberate as it was, it doesnt mean a thing as far as teresa goes

[ylekram]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 4:33 PM, HessStation said:

The point to starting the thread was to conjure up more conversation to hear all sides and perspectives but instead I've just apparently conjured up some former pot smokimg/dealing seed of Satan. 

i would love to compare notes with you on this subject, if you are interested

[ylekram]

On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 7:18 AM, Snell41 said:

 

There was a lot left out of that documentary. He killed her.

 

 

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just to add. there is alot of speculation going on right now on how the film makers were biased and purposely left evidence out of the documentary that pointed to steven avery being guilty. what about the evidence left out of the documentary that points to his innocense? just off the top of my head, i have 2 easy ones

1. what about the blood sample in the test tube? we all heard about the hole in the tube stopper and that the evidence seal on the outer box was broken. also the fact that there was blood residue between the rubber stopper and the glass tube. defense testifies that this is all suspect, while the state testifies there is an explanation or it is normal. both sides make compelling arguments. but what about the evidence seal that should have been present on the tube itself? the state has no answer for that. it was left out of the documentary

2. what about the fuel delivery guy, who has no ties to the case, very much like the school bus driver, who testified that he saw teresas car drive away from steven averys trailer at 4.00 pm? although he couldnt idenify the driver of the car, he saw the car driving away at 4 pm. that was left out of the documentary as well

bottom line is with hundreds of hours of testimony crammed into a 10 hour series, not every last detail could be included. i feel the fil makers did a good job. the evidence left out of the doc wasnt one sided and imo, i think they left out more important evidence of the defense as opossed to the prosecution

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

13 minutes ago, ylekram said:

1. what about the blood sample in the test tube? we all heard about the hole in the tube stopper and that the evidence seal on the outer box was broken. also the fact that there was blood residue between the rubber stopper and the glass tube. defense testifies that this is all suspect, while the state testifies there is an explanation or it is normal. both sides make compelling arguments. but what about the evidence seal that should have been present on the tube itself? the state has no answer for that.

The answer is who cares. Investigating and prosecuting murders is messy business. Mistakes get made. The overwhelming majority of them don't conjure reasonable doubt out of thin air. The forensics in O.J. were a travesty. It doesn't mean that he was innocent and/or framed.

[ylekram]

9 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

The answer is who cares. Investigating and prosecuting murders is messy business. Mistakes get made. The overwhelming majority of them don't conjure reasonable doubt out of thin air. The forensics in O.J. were a travesty. It doesn't mean that he was innocent and/or framed.

i dont agree with your answer because i care. i have reason to. i have already stated my opinion that i am not completely convinced of his innocence. but what i am convinced of is that he did not receive a fair trial. you call prosecuting a murder messy business and mistakes get made. to that i can agree. but lets not be convinced that these were all mistakes. not even close. were some honest mistakes made? sure, that seems plausible. were finding the bullet and the key honest mistakes? not a chance

[HighPitch]

On February 4, 2016 at 8:09 AM, CTM said:

you've come to some very definitive conclusions for not even knowing whether you've seen 3 or 4 episodes (out of 10)

My conclusions are all supported by what eps 3 to 4 offered.

 

ok im done with the series. The whole thing was a travesty of justice. The same cops being sued being allowed to investigate, the same dumb judge, the lack of a single solid piece of evidence, the conflicts of interest,etc. just awful. When you have evidence that very strongly suggested foul play by the police, then really, there is nothing you can trust. Its spoiled.

My 3 strongest pieces:

1. you are entitled to a fair trial. In eps 10 the kids lawyer was easily exposed as one who did not have his clients interest at heart and worked with the prosecutor to hang him. Plus, he got a bogus confession from a scared retardedboy. Result? Judge finds no wrongdoing and denies a new trial?

2. Key - sanitized. Only averys dna is on it. Found in plain sight days later by the cops who were about to be sued and were not even supposed to be on the case. Really?

3. Confession - they grilled, bullied and wrote the script for the retarded boy. The woman was butchered on the bed. But not a drop of blood. Later, the da says she was not killed in the bed as the confession explained but shot in the garage. So the #1 piece of evidence is supposed to be suddenly ignored for an entirely new theory? Their whole case was based on that. Confession

[HighPitch]

20 hours ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

The answer is who cares. Investigating and prosecuting murders is messy business. Mistakes get made. The overwhelming majority of them don't conjure reasonable doubt out of thin air. The forensics in O.J. were a travesty. It doesn't mean that he was innocent and/or framed.

Yea who cares. Lets just all go to jail without trials.

 

are you 12?

[HighPitch]

And another damning piece of evidence:

the one cop, nervous as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs, gets a playback of himself calling in the plates of the then missing  rav4 days before the cops supposedly found it on averys property.

he or noone else has an explanation for this. Its HUGE

[ylekram]

12 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

My conclusions are all supported by what eps 3 to 4 offered.

 

ok im done with the series. The whole thing was a travesty of justice. The same cops being sued being allowed to investigate, the same dumb judge, the lack of a single solid piece of evidence, the conflicts of interest,etc. just awful. When you have evidence that very strongly suggested foul play by the police, then really, there is nothing you can trust. Its spoiled.

My 3 strongest pieces:

1. you are entitled to a fair trial. In eps 10 the kids lawyer was easily exposed as one who did not have his clients interest at heart and worked with the prosecutor to hang him. Plus, he got a bogus confession from a scared retardedboy. Result? Judge finds no wrongdoing and denies a new trial?

2. Key - sanitized. Only averys dna is on it. Found in plain sight days later by the cops who were about to be sued and were not even supposed to be on the case. Really?

3. Confession - they grilled, bullied and wrote the script for the retarded boy. The woman was butchered on the bed. But not a drop of blood. Later, the da says she was not killed in the bed as the confession explained but shot in the garage. So the #1 piece of evidence is supposed to be suddenly ignored for an entirely new theory? Their whole case was based on that. Confession

new revelations in the case.

steven avery's new attorney, kathleen zellner, states that she has new evidence that will exonerate steve avery. imo, the new evidence will revolve around steven averys blood found inside the car. specifically using new technology that can prove the age of the dna. i believe these tests are already done. why else whould his new lawyer claim that she has new evidence to exonerate steven avery? she is a prominate attorney that doesnt need the money or notoriety. she already has it. and here is the kicker. she aparently only represents innocent people. she has never lost a case. she took on 17 conviction cases and she got 17 guys released from prison

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

How does that exonerate Avery? The blood sample placing O.J. at the scene of the murders was subjected to risk of cross-contamination. Does that mean he didn't do it? People seem to have this notion that if you throw enough unreasonable doubts out there the cumulative effect is reasonable doubt. It's not really even helping the cause. A legitimate frame-up would have been cleaner than this.

[ylekram]

59 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

How does that exonerate Avery? The blood sample placing O.J. at the scene of the murders was subjected to risk of cross-contamination. Does that mean he didn't do it? People seem to have this notion that if you throw enough unreasonable doubts out there the cumulative effect is reasonable doubt. It's not really even helping the cause. A legitimate frame-up would have been cleaner than this.

not sure what you mean here about cross contamination. i was suggesting that new technology would be used to tell the age of the dna, specifically the blood found in terasas car. ie: whether the blood found was from a 24 year old avery( which would suggest evidence planting and his innocence) or from a 44 year old avery( which would suggest that he actually bled in the car and his guilt)

[HighPitch]

1 hour ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

How does that exonerate Avery? The blood sample placing O.J. at the scene of the murders was subjected to risk of cross-contamination. Does that mean he didn't do it? People seem to have this notion that if you throw enough unreasonable doubts out there the cumulative effect is reasonable doubt. It's not really even helping the cause. A legitimate frame-up would have been cleaner than this.

what? Yes thats exactly how it works: If you provide several pieces of evidence that introduce reasonable doubt then naturally there is a cumulative effect of overall reasonable doubt. Lets not forget….at the end of the trial 7 out of the 12 jurors felt that avery should be found innocent and they were there not for 10 episodes but the entire trial. every second. with 3 hard noses that wouldn't budge and had him pegged for guilty before the trial ever started, it seem that everyone wanted to go home and they just hanged him rather than remain deadlocked for days on end

[HighPitch]

1 hour ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

How does that exonerate Avery? The blood sample placing O.J. at the scene of the murders was subjected to risk of cross-contamination. Does that mean he didn't do it? People seem to have this notion that if you throw enough unreasonable doubts out there the cumulative effect is reasonable doubt. It's not really even helping the cause. A legitimate frame-up would have been cleaner than this.

if the blood in the car came from that VERY tampered vile from 20 years ago, avery walks and the cops are proven to be conspirators