Jump to content
Want to remove all ads? ×

PSL Holders Sue Rams

Jets_Win

By Jets_Win
in NY Jets Forum

Recommended Posts

SAR I

SAR I

Posted
Posted

As to the whole PSL/Rams thing...here's what nobody is considering....

History suggests that there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of the Rams selling out the stadium, so the PSL holders won't be able to make any profit off their tickets most likely anyway.  Team should offer the pro-rated license cost back and be done with it.  If they don't do that much, they suck and should get roasted.  If they do, the fans should let it go and become Chiefs fans.

PSL's are nothing more than a price increase in exchange for seating choice.

PSL owners spend money they don't want to in order to force others out of the seats they'd like to sit in.  NFL owners don't mind this practice as it puts them in control of their best locations, not scalpers.  It's win-win.

I feel bad for the people of St. Louis not because of the handful who will lose PSL money, but the millions who are fans of the team many of whom will now have lost 2 NFL franchises in their lifetimes, quite unfair.

SAR I

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Maxman

Maxman

Posted
Posted

All Wheel Drive is a gimmick by car companies to instill false confidence in lazy drivers.  Nothing is better than snow tires.  And I've owned several All Wheel Drive vehicles, BMW's included. 

SAR I

My Jeep doesn't need snow tires.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jet Fan RI

Jet Fan RI

Posted
Posted

If their PSL Agreement grants them a right they can sue over, good for them.

Gonna guess the PSL agreement is clear cut and doesn't give them sh*t, and it'll get tossed out of court in short order.

NFL and team lawyers are generally not stupid.

The NFL and its lawyers seemed pretty stupid in the deflategate case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
joewilly12

joewilly12

Posted
Posted

JN doesn't work in China and I just got back. 

BMW makes a great car, just put the snow tires on her, not sure if I should break the blizzard emergency law and go for bagels but I haven't had a fresh one since New Year's and the jet-lag has me awake. 

SAR I

Welcome back SAR I glad you are safe and sound notice some JA hacked my original post. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gas2No99

Gas2No99

Posted
Posted

 

435i hard top convertible (black).

 

V6 twin turbo, 435 HP engine.

 

All the gadgets that can come with a vehicle.

 

The car absolutely flies!!

 

Should have listened to you years ago.

 

 

congrats! Nothing beats Excellent German engineering. I'm a MBer myself, but BMW, Audi, MB, & Porsche are all BY FAR the best driving experiences coming from the Deutschland . 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
PatriotReign37

PatriotReign37

Posted
Posted

All Wheel Drive is a gimmick by car companies to instill false confidence in lazy drivers.  Nothing is better than snow tires.  And I've owned several All Wheel Drive vehicles, BMW's included. 

SAR I

 I heard Beamers suck in the snow. Rear wheel drive.

 I have 4 wheel drive and it is awesome in the snow. When you brake the vehicle stays straight.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
SAR I

SAR I

Posted
Posted

 I heard Beamers suck in the snow. Rear wheel drive.

 I have 4 wheel drive and it is awesome in the snow. When you brake the vehicle stays straight.

 

Not true, at least of the 3 Series and 4 Series I have owned.  I always go rear wheel drive for the weight/performance 9 months of the year and put snow tires on for the other 3.  The 50/50 weight distribution and low center of gravity make a big difference vs conventional rear drive cars.  Compared to my all wheel drive Honda's and front wheel drive Acuras, nothing beat my BMW's with rear drive and snow tires.

Lots of research out there, its good to watch the YouTube videos too, but what most don't realize is that four wheel drive on all seasons suck compared to rear wheel drive on dedicated snow tires.  It's more than just traction.  It's braking, temperatures that the rubber can handle, basic maneuvers, etc.  A little different in the NYC metro area but when I lived up in New England for all those years, snow tires were everything.

SAR I.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
SAR I

SAR I

Posted
Posted

435i hard top convertible (black).

V6 twin turbo, 435 HP engine.

All the gadgets that can come with a vehicle.

The car absolutely flies!!

Should have listened to you years ago.

Sweet setup, the hard top convertible is an awesome car.

I have a 4 Series too, love it.  Congrats.

SAR I

Link to comment
Share on other sites
PatriotReign37

PatriotReign37

Posted
Posted

Not true, at least of the 3 Series and 4 Series I have owned.  I always go rear wheel drive for the weight/performance 9 months of the year and put snow tires on for the other 3.  The 50/50 weight distribution and low center of gravity make a big difference vs conventional rear drive cars.  Compared to my all wheel drive Honda's and front wheel drive Acuras, nothing beat my BMW's with rear drive and snow tires.

Lots of research out there, its good to watch the YouTube videos too, but what most don't realize is that four wheel drive on all seasons suck compared to rear wheel drive on dedicated snow tires.  It's more than just traction.  It's braking, temperatures that the rubber can handle, basic maneuvers, etc.  A little different in the NYC metro area but when I lived up in New England for all those years, snow tires were everything.

SAR I.

I know an architect with one of the high dollar ones like a 7 series.

He told me that his car is awful in snow and ice. I will mention snow tires :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
SAR I

SAR I

Posted
Posted

I know an architect with one of the high dollar ones like a 7 series.

He told me that his car is awful in snow and ice. I will mention snow tires :lol:

Understand that with BMW, the bigger cars aren't the better cars from a performance/handling standpoint.  They are luxurious, no question, but for those who enjoy spirited driving on the daily commute the 2/3/4 Series are the light/tight performance cars, not the 5/6/7 Series which are larger and heavier.

But yes, if he has an X Drive 7 Series on all season tires, he would say that the car is bad in snow and ice.  Dedicated winter tires make an enormous difference.  And for the record, I did not enjoy spending $1,500 on tires and spending $250 every December and April at the local tire shop.  All wheel drive spares most from this expense and these chores but I've been in enough near accidents on snow and ice to simply not want to take the risk.  We have 2 BMW sedan's and 1 minivan in the family, all 3 cars get snow tires regardless of rear wheel, front wheel, or all wheel drive.  It's a matter of personal preference and additional safety for those who tend to drive long distances in bad weather, it's not for everyone, not for someone on Long Island who commutes 1 mile to the train station each day.

SAR I

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TuscanyTile2

TuscanyTile2

Posted
Posted

All wheel drive spares most from this expense and these chores but I've been in enough near accidents on snow and ice to simply not want to take the risk.  We have 2 BMW sedan's and 1 minivan in the family, all 3 cars get snow tires regardless of rear wheel, front wheel, or all wheel drive. 

Brother, can you spare a BMW?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
jetrider

jetrider

Posted
Posted

JN doesn't work in China and I just got back. 

BMW makes a great car, just put the snow tires on her, not sure if I should break the blizzard emergency law and go for bagels but I haven't had a fresh one since New Year's and the jet-lag has me awake. 

SAR I

It worked for me in third world Indonesia, why not hi-tech China?

 

China was good, was a successful trip.  I'd rather spend more time in Hong Kong as it's a nicer place but can't complain.  Slingbox worked well over there, thought I would need it for a Jets wildcard game, oh well.

LOL, very good.

I got my son an older BMW this past summer for him to take his road test and get used to before the big move to college this September.  Time flies.  Just yesterday he had a car seat in mine, now he has his own.

SAR I

Please post some recent pics of China. :)

I lost interest in BMWs many years ago. I like Benzos much better.

The '17 GLC Coupe is the next trendsetter if they don't muck it up between now and production.

 

 

435i hard top convertible (black).

 

V6 twin turbo, 435 HP engine.

 

All the gadgets that can come with a vehicle.

 

The car absolutely flies!!

 

Should have listened to you years ago.

 

 

Those 0% down no cash out of pocket leases are why BMWs are so affordable and common everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jets_Win

Jets_Win

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Apparently the Rams had a section with language that the team couldn't be sued by PSL holders but.. 

Case For St. Louis Rams PSL Holders To Buy L.A. Season Tickets

By: Michael Kernan

  

The Rams are the first NFL team to move in the PSL era. What does that mean for PSL holders? Can St. Louis PSL holders buy tickets to Rams games in Los Angeles? Does the PSL move with the team?

Here is some background on PSL for context: Sports teams constantly need to find ways to innovate and make money. One in recent times has been the personal seat license, or PSL.

It is an agreement that entitles the holder to the right to buy season tickets to their team. Like all contracts, the language of the agreement is the starting place. But the Rams organization have done a few things that would suggest that PSL holders in St. Louis may have a decent argument that they can buy season tickets in Los Angeles.

The PSL is the right to buy Rams season tickets. It is transferable, meaning the holder can sell the seat license to someone else if they no longer wish to purchase season tickets. But it is the buying of season tickets that dictates control: This means if the seat license holder chooses not to sell the seat licenses and does not renew the season tickets, the holder forfeits the licenseback to the team. Note, the license does not go back to the stadium.

The Rams say the PSL is a right to buy for "all future seasons."

According to the St. Louis Rams, the PSL is the right to buy season tickets to Rams games. It states that fans can:

"Buy PSLs from a current season ticket holder & become the new season ticket holder for those exact seats for all future seasons."

It is unclear when the language of "those exact seats" was added, and if it was added after the Rams began looking at moving. We reached out to the Rams for comment on this issue, and they did not respond to questions of when the language was added, if it was added or why it was added.

Note, this representation is being made, technically, by a Rams agent, "STR Marketplace," who according to its own website "builds and operates team-branded websites in partnership with professional sports teams." Regardless, in the law, they would have ostensible authority.

Note that it does not state all future seasons that the Rams play in the Edward Jones Dome. Thus, if you are a Rams PSL holder, and if Row 1, Seats 10 and 11 are your tickets, can you buy Row 1, Seats 10 and 11 at the new Rams stadium in Los Angeles?

The Rams first sold a PSL when they moved to St. Louis in 1995, but their initial games were not even played at the stadium currently known as Edward Jones Dome. Those were played at Busch Stadium (the St. Louis Cardinals baseball stadium). The Rams did not play a game in the stadium known as Edward Jones Dome until November 12, 1995. This would be evidence that the PSL is tied to the Rams themselves and not the particular structure.

Rams Fans

Why is it a big deal?

In St. Louis, 46,000 fans paid between $250 and $4,500 for PSLs. Whether they can buy tickets in Los Angeles with that PSL is a big deal, because the value of the PSL, much like the value of the franchise, will increase astronomically in a move to Los Angeles.

According to Business Insider, the Rams owner Stan Kroenke would see his team rise in value from $930 million to around $3.5 billion, and possibly as high as $5 billion.

Shouldn't the purchasers of Rams PSLs, loyal Rams fans who bought season tickets and who are losing their team, also participate in that success? When the Rams move, there is a case they have a legal obligation to share that success with their PSL holders in St. Louis. And there is certainly a moral obligation to do so.

When they move, the Rams should allow PSL holders to sell their PSLs on the open market to the highest bidder in Los Angeles. Or, the Rams should buy back the PSLs from the massive increase in money the Rams are making from the move. And the NFL, in the spirit of the NFL, should make them make it so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
rex-n-effect

rex-n-effect

Posted
Posted

A smart plaintiff's attorney would figure out how to keep this case in state court where the judges are more likely to be irate that the team is abandoning their citizens and have to be more sensitive to the whims of local voters. Even with a favorable venue it's going to be tough to hang on to any judgment that gives PSL holders meaningful value unless the PSL holders can prove the Rams defrauded PSL purchasers at the time of sale. The most likely result is that PSL holders end up getting some amount below the original purchase price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TuscanyTile2

TuscanyTile2

Posted
Posted

A smart plaintiff's attorney would figure out how to keep this case in state court where the judges are more likely to be irate that the team is abandoning their citizens and have to be more sensitive to the whims of local voters. Even with a favorable venue it's going to be tough to hang on to any judgment that gives PSL holders meaningful value unless the PSL holders can prove the Rams defrauded PSL purchasers at the time of sale. The most likely result is that PSL holders end up getting some amount below the original purchase price.

You're probably correct on this but what a terrible statement it makes on our justice system if it is indeed true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
rex-n-effect

rex-n-effect

Posted
Posted

 

You're probably correct on this but what a terrible statement it makes on our justice system if it is indeed true.

The judicial system is highly political and where a case is adjudicated can make a tremendous difference upon the outcome. The idea that justice is blind is a complete myth. Judges take sides.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 1 year later...
GordonGecko

GordonGecko

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Good for the PSL owners.  Honestly, I can't believe the Rams tried to get away screwing the fans that badly.

Not so good, that ruling was in 2016. Fast forward to 2018, and the Rams have ignored the ruling and the PSLs holders and haven't given the fans a single thing that they are entitled to. It's still in the courts, and this is the latest via https://www.law360.com/articles/967072/rams-fans-want-info-on-seat-license-pricing-at-la-stadium :

 

Quote

 

Rams Fans Want Info On Seat License Pricing At LA Stadium

By Zachary Zagger

Law360, New York (September 22, 2017, 7:17 PM EDT) -- A proposed class of Rams fans whose season tickets were canceled when the team moved to LA asked a Missouri federal court on Friday to force the NFL team to hand over documents related to its discussions over pricing personal seat licenses at its new stadium, arguing they're relevant as the Rams have refused to give them a chance to purchase the new licenses.

Richard Arnold of St. Louis, whose suit was consolidated with similar cases, sought documents related to a survey conducted by Legends Hospitality Inc. — which is selling suites and sponsorships for the stadium — and documents exchanged between Legends and the Rams concerning the pricing of new PSLs, which give the holder a right to purchase season tickets.

Arnold said the Rams have breached a prior order by U.S. District Judge Stephen N. Limbaugh Jr. requiring the team make its “best effort” to give those who purchased PSLs under a specific agreement a chance to purchase them for games in Los Angeles.

“This court has already found that St. Louis Rams PSLs entitle the holders to buy tickets in the Los Angeles Stadium,” the motion said. “The Rams have breached that obligation and thus owe monetary damages to St. Louis Rams PSL holders…. The price at which the Rams will sell these new Los Angeles Rams PSLs therefore has great probative weight on the plaintiffs’ damages as they have been denied very similar (if not identical) rights afforded by the new PSLs.”

The Rams earlier this year told Arnold the document requests were “unduly burdensome, overbroad, irrelevant and not proportional to the needs of the case,” according to the motion to compel. Specifically, the Rams said the discussions request is “premature” as it “has not yet established the sale price of the PSLs” for the new stadium and that the survey documents are further protected by attorney-client privilege or the work-product doctrine.

Arnold’s suit is one of three putative class actions, including ones filed by Envision LLC and Ronald McAllister, against the Rams on behalf of season-ticket holders who had purchased personal seat license agreements to buy their seats.

The lawsuits led by Envision and Arnold argue the Rams should continue to honor the seat license agreements by allowing the season-ticket holders to purchase tickets at the Rams’ new California home. McAllister, on the other hand, argued the Rams had breached the agreement and so owed the season-ticket holders a refund for the license purchase.

The plaintiffs moved for class certification in December, and according to court documents, all discovery and briefing on class certification was set to be completed by May.

However, the Rams in July lobbed a counterclaim alleging that McAllister should be suing the St. Louis Regional Convention and Visitors Commission, the entity that managed the Rams’ St. Louis stadium, since he bought the PSLs through one of its agents.

Even before that, Arnold had argued the Rams were unfairly trying to drag his suit into the team’s dispute with the commission.

Counsel for Arnold and the Rams did not immediately respond to requests for comment Friday.

Arnold is represented by Fernando Bermudez of Bermudez Law STL LLC and Martin M. Green of the Law Offices of Martin M. Green PC.

The Rams are represented by Roger Heidenreich, Elizabeth T. Ferrick, Amy E. Sestric and Anders C. Wick of Dentons.

CVC is represented by Nicholas J. Lamb and Shaun C. Broeker of Thompson Coburn LLP.

The consolidated case is McAllister v. The St. Louis Rams LLC, case number 4:16-cv-00172, in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri.

 

 


 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
SAR I

SAR I

Posted
Posted
On 1/22/2016 at 7:08 PM, TuscanyTile2 said:

We need the BMW driving guy on here (I can't believe I forgot his name) to give his opinion.

It's BMW's.  With an 's at the end.  As in 'plural'.  Here is my opinion:

I don't think about money I spent in 2008 here in 2018.  

Yes, my PSL's were $16,000 plus the $4,000 in blood money I paid to get Day 1 seniority from a fan whose senile father owned a block of seats since the Shea days.  But $20,000 is what I spend on a decent vacation since 2008, what with the 6 of us plus airfare, two rooms or a suite, food, entertainment, car rentals, the Caribbean and Europe ain't cheap.

So just like our 2008 vacation to Jamaica wasn't a good "investment" because it only lasted a week and all that's left are faint memories, so too is my 2008 expenditure on PSL's.  That's entertainment.

SAR I

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing

Content Partnership

Yes Network

Site Sponsor

MILE-Social - NJ Social Media & SEO company

Site Sponsor

MetLife Stadium Tailgate

NY Jets Podcast

NY Jets Podcast

DMCA Page

  • -- DMCA Page
    • ×
    ×
    • Create New...