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Maxman

NL adopting DH is gaining momentum

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On February 5, 2016 at 8:32 PM, adb280z said:

The pitch count has taken away much of the strategy that used to exist in the NL game.  Now in a tight game in the 7th or 8th if the pitcher comes up he's getting pulled because of pitch count regardless.   In the 70s or 80s that wouldn't happen.

It is not just pitchers and pitch count.

It is managing your bench and substitutions all around. 

Anyone that does not believe that there are more decisions in the NL as a manager, in comparison to the AL, is deluding themselves. 

Call the DH for what it is, a stunt to try and increase attendance for an AL league that was lagging behind the NL in attendance and popularity in the early 70's.

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3 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

It is not just pitchers and pitch count.

It is managing your bench and substitutions all around. 

Anyone that does not believe that there are more decisions in the NL as a manager, in comparison to the AL, is deluding themselves. 

Call the DH for what it is, a stunt to try and increase attendance for an AL league that was lagging behind the NL in attendance and popularity in the early 70's.

There really aren't that many decisions.  Just pick a pinch hitter and move on.  

No one cares how pitchers hit

Top pitchers are paid massive amounts of money, why risk their health having them perform actions that they're not prepared to handle?

Favors the AL, older/injured players can shift to DH, NL team stuck with liability.

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I've never been an advocate of the DH in the National League. I also never had Kyle Schwarber before. Bring on the DH! It's time to evolve!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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On February 6, 2016 at 11:54 AM, adb280z said:

There really aren't that many decisions.  Just pick a pinch hitter and move on.  

No one cares how pitchers hit

Top pitchers are paid massive amounts of money, why risk their health having them perform actions that they're not prepared to handle?

Favors the AL, older/injured players can shift to DH, NL team stuck with liability.

Managers do care how pitchers hit. It affects how they manage the game (if they have a good hitting pitcher or not). It also effects how they approach the #8 hitter.

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On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 11:38 AM, Scott Dierking said:

Oh, so there are more decisions to make.

Thanks.

Way to, again, over estimate the decision making process.

Here it is in a nutshell.

Team ahead:  Leave pitcher in and tell them to bunt.

Team behind:  Pinch hitter.

Making a pitching change and his spot is due up soon:  Double switch. 

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2 hours ago, PFSIKH said:

Way to, again, over estimate the decision making process.

Here it is in a nutshell.

Team ahead:  Leave pitcher in and tell them to bunt.

Team behind:  Pinch hitter.

Making a pitching change and his spot is due up soon:  Double switch. 

I honestly don't know what they don't have robots managing. Al and NL. It is sooo simple, as you smartly point out.

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5 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

I honestly don't know what they don't have robots managing. Al and NL. It is sooo simple, as you smartly point out.

Exactly.

Again, as you clearly want to ignore, this is what Jim Leyland said.  More decisions in the NL, but the score dictates the moves.  Decisions are little harder in the AL.  However, you want to keep your panties in a bunch.

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46 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Exactly.

Again, as you clearly want to ignore, this is what Jim Leyland said.  More decisions in the NL, but the score dictates the moves.  Decisions are little harder in the AL.  However, you want to keep your panties in a bunch.

Well, Joe Maddon said there are more decisions to make in the NL. But, he is much more stupid than jim Leyland, and what would he know?

Oh, and Ned Yost agrees it is more "difficult" to manage in the NL. 

Don't know why you have to be so emotional about this. 

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16 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

Managers do care how pitchers hit. It affects how they manage the game (if they have a good hitting pitcher or not). It also effects how they approach the #8 hitter.

When it comes to free agency no one factors in how a pitcher hits.  It is completely irrelevant.

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7 hours ago, adb280z said:

When it comes to free agency no one factors in how a pitcher hits.  It is completely irrelevant.

Wasn't talking about Free Agency. Was talking about in game strategy. 

Believe those are 2 totally different things.

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Ned Yost's comments:

"For me, I loved managing a National League game," he said. "Because there’s so much more strategy involved. The American League game, I love it, too, because it’s easier. It’s easier to manage the game. I’m not sure they should just throw the DH out in both of those, because the National League game, it’s exciting. It’s different."

Joe Maddon's comments:

"In the National League, there is so much more to think about. If you really want to get fans engaged, the strategy exceeds that of an American League game. 

 

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22 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

Well, Joe Maddon said there are more decisions to make in the NL. But, he is much more stupid than jim Leyland, and what would he know?

Oh, and Ned Yost agrees it is more "difficult" to manage in the NL. 

Don't know why you have to be so emotional about this. 

Ain't that what I said like 12 times?

Leyland, in a pregame talk in his office, said it is “more fun to manage in the National League, and there's more to do,” but said he considers it more difficult to manage in the American League.

“The reason I've said that all along is that, in the National League, if you get to the fourth or fifth inning down by three or four runs, you pinch-hit for your pitcher,” Leyland said. “So the decision's kind of made for you.

“In the American League, you have to be precise as to when you take him out. He might have given up three (runs) in the first (inning) and really settled down and really is pitching a good game. You get to the sixth inning and maybe he gets in a little trouble – has he lost it, has he not? I think pitching is the most of managing. So I think it's a little more difficult than people understand.”

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4 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Ain't that what I said like 12 times?

Leyland, in a pregame talk in his office, said it is “more fun to manage in the National League, and there's more to do,” but said he considers it more difficult to manage in the American League.

“The reason I've said that all along is that, in the National League, if you get to the fourth or fifth inning down by three or four runs, you pinch-hit for your pitcher,” Leyland said. “So the decision's kind of made for you.

“In the American League, you have to be precise as to when you take him out. He might have given up three (runs) in the first (inning) and really settled down and really is pitching a good game. You get to the sixth inning and maybe he gets in a little trouble – has he lost it, has he not? I think pitching is the most of managing. So I think it's a little more difficult than people understand.”

You obviously didn't read my Maddon and Yost quotes.

We get it, you like AL better. Just don't close your mind so easily that because that is the brand you like, that it is the best. Others have opinions too. 

 

PS-If there are more decisions to make, the more opportunity there is to be wrong. 

 

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1 hour ago, no psls said:

The DH is for managers with no brains .

PFSIKH has let it be known that every decision made in the NL is made up by the game situation. There really are no decisions thus, and they are all wither black or white. Push button management, as it were

 

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21 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

You obviously didn't read my Maddon and Yost quotes.

We get it, you like AL better. Just don't close your mind so easily that because that is the brand you like, that it is the best. Others have opinions too. 

PS-If there are more decisions to make, the more opportunity there is to be wrong.

I did read them, but how hard can the NL be?  An AL manager for a 4th place team took a last place NL team and made it to the NLCS.  ;)

I do not favor one league over the other as far as play is concerned especially with PEDs largely out of the game. 

I think Leyland's point is true though.  Using his example, if a pitcher is struggling in the 6th, in the NL I would bet more times than not (depending on who the pitcher is e.g. Kershaw type), that decision is made.  Pinch hit for the pitcher or do a double switch.  In the AL, do you pull him, is it too early?  Or wait until it is too late?

My point only is the NL is not chess and the AL checkers. 

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15 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

I did read them, but how hard can the NL be?  An AL manager for a 4th place team took a last place NL team and made it to the NLCS.  ;)

I do not favor one league over the other as far as play is concerned especially with PEDs largely out of the game. 

I think Leyland's point is true though.  Using his example, if a pitcher is struggling in the 6th, in the NL I would bet more times than not (depending on who the pitcher is e.g. Kershaw type), that decision is made.  Pinch hit for the pitcher or do a double switch.  In the AL, do you pull him, is it too early?  Or wait until it is too late?

My point only is the NL is not chess and the AL checkers. 

Huh? Didn't Maddon take the Rays to the World Series? Didn't Yost just take the Royals to their first World Series in 30 years? How did old Yost do in the AL?

To bring the point you made closer to home, didn't Francona absolutely fail with the Phillies, only to win 2 world series with the Red Sox? One in his first year? Think it has anything to do with talent?

Silly point on your part.

I do think Yosts and Maddon's points are true. There is more STRATEGY in the NL. 

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2 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

Huh? Didn't Maddon take the Rays to the World Series? Didn't Yost just take the Royals to their first World Series in 30 years? How did old Yost do in the AL?

To bring the point you made closer to home, didn't Francona absolutely fail with the Phillies, only to win 2 world series with the Red Sox? One in his first year? Think it has anything to do with talent?

Silly point on your part.

I do think Yosts and Maddon's points are true. There is more STRATEGY in the NL. 

The NL sounds hard. I am glad they won't have the DH much longer this way I can follow along and understand what is going on. :)

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23 minutes ago, Maxman said:

The NL sounds hard. I am glad they won't have the DH much longer this way I can follow along and understand what is going on. :)

It is not hard, but certainly more strategic. Heck, Willie Randolph managed in the NL (albeit poorly).

I forget who the OP of this thread was, but that person's premise is now less solid, as Manfred has recently said that the DH is secure for now.

I am sure the OP had good intentions, regardless

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1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

It is not hard, but certainly more strategic. Heck, Willie Randolph managed in the NL (albeit poorly).

I forget who the OP of this thread was, but that person's premise is now less solid, as Manfred has recently said that the DH is secure for now.

I am sure the OP had good intentions, regardless

The NL will sell out eventually. It happens.

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6 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

Huh? Didn't Maddon take the Rays to the World Series? Didn't Yost just take the Royals to their first World Series in 30 years? How did old Yost do in the AL?

To bring the point you made closer to home, didn't Francona absolutely fail with the Phillies, only to win 2 world series with the Red Sox? One in his first year? Think it has anything to do with talent?

Silly point on your part.

I do think Yosts and Maddon's points are true. There is more STRATEGY in the NL. 

Dude.....see the wink.  That was a joke. 

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2 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

So you admit it would be a sell out? ;)

To me the DH was always kind of silly. I like it personally because I enjoyed the extra runs growing up. But it is a joke when guys like ARod hang on and hit 30 plus home runs when they would hit a fraction of that if they had to play the field.

I get why they did it in the AL, "strategy talk" aside, AL games are more exciting because offense sells. Especially today. So I do think it is inevitable that the NL will sell out eventually as well.

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4 minutes ago, Maxman said:

To me the DH was always kind of silly. I like it personally because I enjoyed the extra runs growing up. But it is a joke when guys like ARod hang on and hit 30 plus home runs when they would hit a fraction of that if they had to play the field.

I get why they did it in the AL, "strategy talk" aside, AL games are more exciting because offense sells. Especially today. So I do think it is inevitable that the NL will sell out eventually as well.

I understand and accept your perspective. But for me, a 1-0 game is much more exciting and has more intangibles than a 9-8 game.

To each his own, I understand and respect.

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4 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

I understand and accept your perspective. But for me, a 1-0 game is much more exciting and has more intangibles than a 9-8 game.

To each his own, I understand and respect.

Meh.  There's plenty of ugly 9-8 games just as there are ugly 1-0 games.  The quality of the game isn't dictated by the final score.  I'm a soccer fan (laugh if you must), and I've been entertained by 0-0 games as much as 4-3 type games.  It just depends on the quality of the product.

I oppose the DH in the NL not because its more or less entertaining than AL games.  I oppose it being forced upon the NL because the NL has been around longer than the commissioner's office has, is a separate league, and should not have to cave to the demands of the AL owners.  If the NL WANTS the DH, fine, have at it, but it should only be up to the NL owners to make that decision, not the MLB as a whole or because of the commissioner's desires.

Plus I really, really want to see Bartolo Colon hit a homerun in a Mets uniform before he retires.

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10 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

I understand and accept your perspective. But for me, a 1-0 game is much more exciting and has more intangibles than a 9-8 game.

To each his own, I understand and respect.

4 - 3.  That is the score of the ideal baseball game.

1 - 0 could be a great game. But sometimes its just because both teams suck lol. I did see the Yankees (Petite) beat the Blue Jays (Clemens) many years ago and that was one of the best games I have ever been to.

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23 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Meh.  There's plenty of ugly 9-8 games just as there are ugly 1-0 games.  The quality of the game isn't dictated by the final score.  I'm a soccer fan (laugh if you must), and I've been entertained by 0-0 games as much as 4-3 type games.  It just depends on the quality of the product.

I oppose the DH in the NL not because its more or less entertaining than AL games.  I oppose it being forced upon the NL because the NL has been around longer than the commissioner's office has, is a separate league, and should not have to cave to the demands of the AL owners.  If the NL WANTS the DH, fine, have at it, but it should only be up to the NL owners to make that decision, not the MLB as a whole or because of the commissioner's desires.

Plus I really, really want to see Bartolo Colon hit a homerun in a Mets uniform before he retires.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't been following this closely, isn't the reason that this is picking up steam is because the NL owners are coming around to it? 

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Just now, Jetlife33 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't been following this closely, isn't the reason that this is picking up steam is because the NL owners are coming around to it? 

Probably.  They want to protect their expensive pitching investments.  If the NL owners reach a consensus to add the DH, I won't complain too much.  But if this is done against their general wishes, I would.

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16 hours ago, Maxman said:

4 - 3.  That is the score of the ideal baseball game.

1 - 0 could be a great game. But sometimes its just because both teams suck lol. I did see the Yankees (Petite) beat the Blue Jays (Clemens) many years ago and that was one of the best games I have ever been to.

Funny....I've always said 5-3.  It means it's unlikely any pitcher got hammered and everyone did their job, might see a couple of lead changes and a couple of clutch hits.  Blowouts and laughers are fine from time to time, but 10-8 is usually a mess.

Edited by AFJF
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