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Have Jets, Maccagnan, Tipped Hand in Wilkerson Negotiations?


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If the Jets didn't want to lose there so called best player for a third rounder, why didn't they sign him to contract extension when they had the cap space to do so.( or trade him right after they drafted the cheaper Leonard Williams).  That what teams do when they want to keep their best players.  The Jets gambled that he wasn't going to have the year he had last year.( get more reasonable contract, and lost as he had his best season.

Now with limited cap space if your intentions are to tag and trade- it's very risky because there is no guarantee some team  going to want to pay him that much , and give up picks also. ( strong Fa 3-4 defense lineman Malik Jackson, and countless defense lineman in this year draft- way cheaper options).  That 16 million on your cap ( Jets can't trade him) is a pretty big hit when you're paying Revis Qb money too.      Will severly limit your free agents you can keep, and the free agents you would like to add this offseason.

Btw when you are trying to move Muhammad Wilkerson in a trade - free agency is starting.(that 16 million counting on your cap). While every team going free agent hunting, you're in a holding pattern.  The free agent you fancy might be long gone.

This is silly, you  re saying the jets should have given him a huge long term deal that he wanted before last year when he had never proven for a full year that he was that dominant.  I'm sure the jets were very dissapointed when he went and had a pro bowl season driving his price up.  :rolleyes:

 

The Jets did exactly the right thing, no need to give him a big deal last year, lets see how he does this year which he played tremendously well.  They now can tag him and keep him and try and work out a long term deal or tag him and trade him also the quality of his play this year increased his trade value.  Unless he was willing to sign for sig discount there was no reason to sign him long term last year.

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Tag and trade.  We need to be able to get enough compensation in a trade to make a push for a QB, so if it has to be a 2017 first rounder in the deal rather than this year's draft, that's fine. 

Jesus guys, i'm not gonna sit here and pontificate over every detail other than there's 50 guys on the roster that I'd kick to the street before letting Mo walk. You do not get rid of all-pro 26 year-

Depends on your definition of overpaying. And who is defining it.  The way Jets fans dump on Mo is ridiculous, he's held to a higher light everywhere else.  He a top DL and all our fan base does is w

People keep touting Wilkerson as this great pass rusher who had 12 sacks. Let's take a closer look.

Wilkerson's Sacks in 2015:

 

Good player? Of course. Difference maker? Not really. His sacks changed maybe one outcome of a game. Realizing that sacks aren't the end all be all, but you guys are the ones touting them incessantly, so. There's some facts. Enjoy.

Team was 2nd in run defense last year and got 12 sacks from a mostly 3-4 DE.  That is very significant production for that position.

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Team was 2nd in run defense last year and got 12 sacks from a mostly 3-4 DE.  That is very significant production for that position.

2nd in run defense because of Snacks. 12 sacks because of Snacks occupying blockers. Take away Snacks and see how well Wilk does.

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If he wants crazy money, you let him go, take the savings, re build some of the O Line and try not to mess up the 3rd rounder

I don't. I don't let home grown, all-pro type talent walk, just for cap space and a 3rd rounder. Especially when said talent isn't even 27 years old.  

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I don't. I don't let home grown, all-pro type talent walk, just for cap space and a 3rd rounder. Especially when said talent isn't even 27 years old.  

I'd much rather keep him.  He's an excellent player.  If he wants 16+ a year, and won't sign for less, then you have to let him go.  Which sucks, because he plays hard and the team is short on young talent.  But, you don't over pay.  If he wants 12 a year, then you re sign him. 

Which is better for the team?  Mo, or the comb of Snacks, a new Right Tackle, some left over cash, and a 3rd round pick?  Don't get me wrong, I like Mo, a LOT.  I think he plays hard, is a team guy, didn't complain publicly, and is young.  But we have 3 3-4 defensive ends, and we need 2.   If you can get something good for Sheldon, then you move him and re sign Mo to a decent contract.  It's really one or the other.

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I'd much rather keep him.  He's an excellent player.  If he wants 16+ a year, and won't sign for less, then you have to let him go.  Which sucks, because he plays hard and the team is short on young talent.  But, you don't over pay.  If he wants 12 a year, then you re sign him. 

Which is better for the team?  Mo, or the comb of Snacks, a new Right Tackle, some left over cash, and a 3rd round pick?  Don't get me wrong, I like Mo, a LOT.  I think he plays hard, is a team guy, didn't complain publicly, and is young.  But we have 3 3-4 defensive ends, and we need 2.   If you can get something good for Sheldon, then you move him and re sign Mo to a decent contract.  It's really one or the other.

If Mo would sign a decent contract there would be no problem to start with..

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If Mo would sign a decent contract there would be no problem to start with..

True enough.   Well, no one really knows what he wants.  

I really don't want to come off as a hater.  I like Mo.  And he is in a violent business (exp broken leg).  He has one chance to see what he can really earn, and if someone else will give him 16 mill a year then he should go get it.  But how many of these big defensive contracts work out?   Mario Williams on the Bills... Suh for the Fish..

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How are you fitting him into the cap? How much are you willing to give a defensive lineman?

Ok how much do you want to give him and who do you want gone??

Jesus guys, i'm not gonna sit here and pontificate over every detail other than there's 50 guys on the roster that I'd kick to the street before letting Mo walk. You do not get rid of all-pro 26 year-old dline talent. You just don't. You don't get better by doing so, unless you swing it for a 1 and something else. But just remember that 1 could turn into Dee Milliner and cap space. 

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2nd in run defense because of Snacks. 12 sacks because of Snacks occupying blockers. Take away Snacks and see how well Wilk does.

What sheer and utter nonsense.  Snacks has been around for a number of years.  Wilkerson upped his game big time, played really well all year and his totals showed.  He was one of the best DE's in the league and a 3-4 DE has more run responsibly than a 4-3 guy.  You can argue all you want about whether he should be signed long term or not but trying to support that positions by saying he did not have a great pro bowl year is grasping big time.

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Jesus guys, i'm not gonna sit here and pontificate over every detail other than there's 50 guys on the roster that I'd kick to the street before letting Mo walk. You do not get rid of all-pro 26 year-old dline talent. You just don't. You don't get better by doing so, unless you swing it for a 1 and something else. But just remember that 1 could turn into Dee Milliner and cap space. 

Well said, if you take this tact you have a revolving door of player hitting their peak and leaving as you over pay for vets on the down side (see revis).  Dump mo now?  fine 3-4 yeas from now we dump Richardson and Williams because you don't play dlineman.

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This is silly, you  re saying the jets should have given him a huge long term deal that he wanted before last year when he had never proven for a full year that he was that dominant.  I'm sure the jets were very dissapointed when he went and had a pro bowl season driving his price up.  :rolleyes:

 

The Jets did exactly the right thing, no need to give him a big deal last year, lets see how he does this year which he played tremendously well.  They now can tag him and keep him and try and work out a long term deal or tag him and trade him also the quality of his play this year increased his trade value.  Unless he was willing to sign for sig discount there was no reason to sign him long term last year.

Didn't m Wilkerson have 10 sacks two years ago.( that isn't dominant for 3-4 De?). If the Jets didn't want to sign Wilkerson last year, than leave enough money left over from last year cap( so much cap room)  that will cover his tag this year.( won't hurt you if they can't move in a trade. With limited cap space , and Jets can't find a trade partner that is a lot of coin ( 16 million ) eating up Jets salary cap- preventing the Jets from signing their own free agents + Bringing in Fa that improve the weak positions. Now it's much risky to do a tag and trade.

You're making like there is going to be a big trade market for Wilkerson(  team going to be willing pay him a monster contract, and give up picks). All it takes one idiot owner to think he puts their team over the top.   Are the Jets willing to make that gamble - we are going to see.

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Didn't m Wilkerson have 10 sacks two years ago.( that isn't dominant for 3-4 De?). If the Jets didn't want to sign Wilkerson last year, than leave enough money left over from last year cap( so much cap room)  that will cover his tag this year.( won't hurt you if they can't move in a trade. With limited cap space , and Jets can't find a trade partner that is a lot of coin ( 16 million ) eating up Jets salary cap- preventing the Jets from signing their own free agents + Bringing in Fa that improve the weak positions. Now it's much risky to do a tag and trade.

You're making like there is going to be a big trade market for Wilkerson(  team going to be willing pay him a monster contract, and give up picks). All it takes one idiot owner to think he puts their team over the top.   Are the Jets willing to make that gamble - we are going to see.

Look at his seasons in the game logs in previous years he never put a full season together, in is 10.5 sack year he had something like 7 in the 1st half of the season.  Unless you are 100% sure of a guy don't go paying him until his cheap years are done or almost done.  Most of all these arguments both ways are moot because we have no idea what he was asking for.  If he was asking for a huge deal before last year we may have him signed long term but we ate up a large chunk of change from last years budget, someone would not have been signed.

There may be no big trade market for him but if the answer is to overpay a guy long term becasue we might not be able to trade him that is a mistake. 

 

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Jesus guys, i'm not gonna sit here and pontificate over every detail other than there's 50 guys on the roster that I'd kick to the street before letting Mo walk. You do not get rid of all-pro 26 year-old dline talent. You just don't. You don't get better by doing so, unless you swing it for a 1 and something else. But just remember that 1 could turn into Dee Milliner and cap space. 

When did Mo make All Pro?? He's made 2nd team but never 1st team All Pro like Revis and Mangold have.. This year he made his first Pro Bowl.. 

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When did Mo make All Pro?? He's made 2nd team but never 1st team All Pro like Revis and Mangold have.. This year he made his first Pro Bowl.. 

I said all-pro talent, because he is. Pro-bowl and all-pro voting is nonsensical. I'd boot revis, snacks, brick and mangold before I booted Mo, plain and simple. only two guys I keep over Mo are Sheldon and Leonard and that's because of age and being on a rookie contract. That's just me though. 

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I said all-pro talent, because he is. Pro-bowl and all-pro voting is nonsensical. I'd boot revis, snacks, brick and mangold before I booted Mo, plain and simple. only two guys I keep over Mo are Sheldon and Leonard and that's because of age and being on a rookie contract. That's just me though. 

And we agree on that..:)

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I am glad we don't agree on anything, your love for Geno smith would taint me if we did.

You do not win in this league by drafting players, developing players to pro bowl level and then wave good bye to them once they are at the 'get paid' stage.  A couple years from now once Richardson and Williams are at their peak?  Trade them away.  Pure nonsense.  You do everything in your power to retain your best players 1st of all.  If wilk walks into the office and demands to be paid like Suh and won't budge?  fine he's gone, but to have an attitude that you get rid of a still young near peak pro bowler while we are handing revis a zillion dollars for on the down side play is stupid.

You still don't get that just because I think Geno should have started does not mean I am a Geno fan. I believed, and still believe that LONG TERM the Jets would be better positioned for the future starting Geno one more year. But we did not, and now we are in a never never land of essentially no answers and many many questions at QB. I actually like Fitz more as a person and as a player, but that does not make starting him and having a slightly above average season a good move, if the Jets are interested in sustained success.

I actually agree that in general you keep your best players, especially the home grown ones. But Mo's situation is unique. First, his demands must be very very high because he was not signed long term by either of our last two GMs. Second DL, is our deepest position. Third, despite all the talent on the DL it is really not that dominant. Excellent against the run, but not super disruptive and not consistently disruptive at all in passing defense. And the main reason we are so good against the run is another FA, Snacks. So you face a situation where without Mo there is likely to be little change in DL performance, the cheaper player in Snacks is arguably as important either and the player is demanding a LOT of money. When looked at in totality it makes zero sense to resign MO, especially since we would get a high draft pick for him, keep Snacks and bolster depth across the board without him.

 

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Anyone know if there is a big difference between if we tag or sign& trade him soon vs. during the middle of or after next season ?

my understanding is something like this:

soon we have somebody else take his salary & do not have to eat the 16 mil per year on him. we get the end of 3rd round pick league compensation ... For arguments sake let's say we can get an additional middle 2nd rounder from the team trading for him.

 

vs.

 

we pay 16 mil franchise tag & have Mo on the roster to start next season. He is still insurance to make sure Sheldon does nothing stupid & we don't have DE injuries to deal with...What if another contending playoff team does suffer DE injury though? ( I know NFL is not MLB with trades/salary dumps at the end of year ... But forget all the specifics as to why) and we get a mid 1st & 3rd as compensation  ... Are we able to get back a good chunk of our salary cap room by having the team trading for Mo take on a chunk of the 16mil?

 

i know some of you guys are trade comp / salary cap guru's ... Would be curious if there's any legit benefit for Big Mac to hold out on making a decision into next season vs. getting it done in the near future

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Probably about the same, since Snacks comes off the field on passing downs.

The majority of Wilk's sacks have come on 1st and 2nd down in 2015 if you read my earlier post staying as such. I did like research and sh*t. Wilk gets the numbers but Snacks does the dirty work. 

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Anyone know if there is a big difference between if we tag or sign& trade him soon vs. during the middle of or after next season ?

my understanding is something like this:

soon we have somebody else take his salary & do not have to eat the 16 mil per year on him. we get the end of 3rd round pick league compensation ... For arguments sake let's say we can get an additional middle 2nd rounder from the team trading for him.

 

vs.

 

we pay 16 mil franchise tag & have Mo on the roster to start next season. He is still insurance to make sure Sheldon does nothing stupid & we don't have DE injuries to deal with...What if another contending playoff team does suffer DE injury though? ( I know NFL is not MLB with trades/salary dumps at the end of year ... But forget all the specifics as to why) and we get a mid 1st & 3rd as compensation  ... Are we able to get back a good chunk of our salary cap room by having the team trading for Mo take on a chunk of the 16mil?

 

i know some of you guys are trade comp / salary cap guru's ... Would be curious if there's any legit benefit for Big Mac to hold out on making a decision into next season vs. getting it done in the near future

If the Jets had last year salary cap space it wouldn't matter what route they took with M Wilkerson( could wait all year as they can easily absorb the 16 million ).  The problem is the Jet have limited cap space this year  , and really can't absorb that 16 million very long without sacrificing other position on their team.( defense line would still be strong without Wilkerson).

Every team knows the Jet cap situation, the first day the Jets can trade Wilkerson is March 9.( which is also the start of free agency)   ..     There aren't going to be many teams interested in trading for Wilkerson ( paying his huge salary+ giving up picks) - all you need is one.( could really cripple the Jets if they tag him, and can't trade him)

Jets try to hold on to Wilkerson 16 million counting against their cap, and you're going to lose Snacks( it's one or the other) . Good chance Snacks ends up in Buffalo.  Now where is your depth to protect against injury, or Richardson suspension.( Snacks is gone).

just a couple of point in that scenario keep Wilkerson just in case another team gets an injury( might give more back in a trade) . First can contending team ( most are right up against the cap absorb Wilkerson contract on their cap).   Second M Wilkerson has to agree to sign a long term contract with that team.  Wilkerson won't sign , and the Jets will be lucky they get a fifth rounder for him.

Jmo I think likely scenario is one of two options for the Jets( don't consider tag and trade an option , as it's too risky with the Jets limited cap space) .  The Jets sign M Wilkerson to contract extension - large signing bonus + very small salary on this year cap ( trying to get past Revis contract- don't mind doing that as Wilkerson just entering his prime.)  Or the Jets don't tag him and let him test the free agent market-( Get a third rounder as compensation in 2017  draft).

 

 

 

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The majority of Wilk's sacks have come on 1st and 2nd down in 2015 if you read my earlier post staying as such. I did like research and sh*t. Wilk gets the numbers but Snacks does the dirty work. 

Well, I'm on board. Let's dump an elite DL and pay a 2-down run-stuffer instead.

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Well, I'm on board. Let's dump an elite DL and pay a 2-down run-stuffer instead.

I know you're being sarcastic but this is what half the board believes should happen.   We'll all just have to wait and see what Mac believes I guess.  

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The majority of Wilk's sacks have come on 1st and 2nd down in 2015 if you read my earlier post staying as such. I did like research and sh*t. Wilk gets the numbers but Snacks does the dirty work. 

So we can eliminate all of von millers sacks because of Sylvester Williams and most of JJ watts sacks because of Vince Wilfork.  Gotcha.

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Regardless of what happens to Wilkerson Snacks is gone in my opinion.  Some totally desperate team that can't stop the run at all will offer him huge money.  The Jets with regret will smartly not match.

Using that reasoning why wouldn't some team offer Mo huge money since he's one of the best players of all time??LOL

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So we can eliminate all of von millers sacks because of Sylvester Williams and most of JJ watts sacks because of Vince Wilfork.  Gotcha.

I don't know. I didn't research all of their individual sacks. JJ Watt and Von Miller can get to the QB on their own. Wilk typically needs the pocket to collapse or coverage to be air tight to get to the QB.

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Using that reasoning why wouldn't some team offer Mo huge money since he's one of the best players of all time??LOL

Once you start making outlandish comments in a discussion your points lose a lot of cred.  Look at the pay scales for NT's vs DEs, look at the franchise costs of each.  In the end you Value Harrison a 2 down great NT more than you do Wilkerson, that's fine. 

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