Tony Dungy - Hall of Famer - Yeah or Neigh

[Sperm Edwards]

16 hours ago, nyjunc said:

rewriting record books(as he did in Indy) and coming up small in postseason(as he did in Indy).  Let's not forget Peyton never won a playoff game until Dungy arrived.

Indy didn't win more SBs b/c of the QB not b/c of the HC.

How many rings did Tampa win w/o him? they took his team, won in 2002 then went back down to pre dungy depths w/in a few years.

 

1976-1996(21 seasons): TB made the playoffs 3 times and won as many as 10 games one time.

1996-2001(6 seasons): TB made the playoffs 4 times, won 10+ games 3 times.

2002-2015(14 seasons):  TB made playoffs 3 times, won 10+ 3 times.

 

so to recap: 35 seasons without Dungy:

6 playoff apps, 17% of seasons 

4 seasons winning 10 or more games, 11%

 

6 seasons w/ Dungy:

4 playoff seasons, 67%

3 double digit seasons, 50%

So Peyton doesn't win playoff games. Tony Dungy wins superbowls, though.

You're still looking at the first few seasons of Manning's career, and comparing it to the seasoned veteran of 25 years old that Dungy inherited. It's a weak, lame thing to leave this obvious factor out of your numbers-only analysis as though it makes no difference whatsoever.

I didn't say he was the worst coach ever. But he's far from being an all-time great. And yes, being a scumbag is a factor which is why others are kept out of the hall.

Dungy was a massively overrated coach who made a lot of bad decisions, and his defenses were overrated. I think in the one SB season his defense was the worst run D in the NFL, giving up like 150 yards per game on the ground. What does this mean? If he has elite players, like he had in Tampa, then the D looks good (but then, it would look as good or better with any competent coach). If the players aren't, he's not going to coach up bad players into playing well. 

[Sperm Edwards]

44 minutes ago, Colgateman said:

Lmao at the people itt saying he doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame because he is homophobic. Apparently he's not the only one because Michael same isn't even in the nfl now, and let me guess all the old timers don't belong in the hall because a majority of them were bigots 

 

It's not the reason. It's a factor, along with his not being an all-time greatest type coach, since they do take nonfootball things into consideration for others. Why Dungy should be immune to this is beyond me. Who cares about Michael Sam? It's his overall bigoted opinion of people unlike himself, not just his opinion on one player. Please leave your political leanings out of your posts, but just to show he's an equal offender to things those on both sides of the aisle are sensitive to, he's also a pretty big anti-white racist. Dungy wouldn't take the Seattle front office job because they wouldn't guarantee that they wouldn't only consider and hire a black HC, even if someone else was clearly thought to be the best choice of available candidates. Seattle refused to budge on this, Dungy walked away, and Seattle hired Carroll as their HC as he let the sh*t hit the fan at USC without him. Imagine if Parcells said he wouldn't take the consulting/operations job with Miami unless they could guarantee they wouldn't hire a black HC. He'd be rightly shunned and outcast from the league, and he'd definitely have been kept out of the HOF. Dungy gets away with it and they put this skeleton-looking scumbag on TV every week.

[Sperm Edwards]

17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So Peyton doesn't win playoff games. Tony Dungy wins superbowls, though. How good was the team and how good was the HC and how much of a factor was the QB? The year after Dungy leaves they improve to 15-1. The next season, that same team minus Manning goes 1-15. A great QB covers up a tremendous amount of poor coaching and poor play all over the team. Absent this all time great QB, Dungy is a winner of nothing and likely gets fired from Indy.

You're still looking at the first few seasons of Manning's career, and comparing it to the seasoned veteran of 25 years old that Dungy inherited. It's a weak, lame thing to leave this obvious factor out of your numbers-only analysis as though it makes no difference whatsoever.

I didn't say he was the worst coach ever. But he's far from being an all-time great. And yes, being a scumbag is a factor which is why others are kept out of the hall.

Dungy was a massively overrated coach who made a lot of bad decisions, and his defenses were overrated. I think in the one SB season his defense was the worst run D in the NFL, giving up like 150 yards per game on the ground. What does this mean? If he has elite players, like he had in Tampa, then the D looks good (but then, it would look as good or better with any competent coach). If the players aren't, he's not going to coach up bad players into playing well. 

 

[nyjunc]

10 hours ago, PFSIKH said:

What?

So Dungy developed those players and Belichick had no impact on the players he inherited?   Most of the honors Law won, he won after Belichick became HC of the NE.  It is the same with Bruschi.

And while I would not say Dungy cherry picked his HC positions, he did not try to take on a total rebuild like Belichick did Cleveland.  Wyche started the rebuild in Tampa and had the team trending in the right direction and again drafted 2 HofFers for Dungy the year before he was fired.  Then Mora started the rebuilding process for the Colts.  Dungy comes along with future top 5 QB of all-time Manning entering his prime and reaps the benefit. 

Again, I am not taking away what he was able to do, but lets not make him out like he built two dynasties.  He is very good, but not great.

 

the NE players made a SB w/o BB, what did the Bucs players do pre Dungy?

 

TB was in a MUCH worse situation than Cleveland, not even comparable.  BB was a total failure w/o Tom Brady in his career, Dungy succeeded w/o his legendary choking QB and w/ him.

[PFSIKH]

8 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

the NE players made a SB w/o BB, what did the Bucs players do pre Dungy?

TB was in a MUCH worse situation than Cleveland, not even comparable.  BB was a total failure w/o Tom Brady in his career, Dungy succeeded w/o his legendary choking QB and w/ him.

Not a great point.  First, Law and Milloy were the only carryover starters from the 1996 Superbowl.  And Gruden took Dungy's Buccaneers team and won the Superbowl.

The Browns were 3-13.  Their 80s run had come to an abrupt and old halt.  Belichick had to tear it down in an era where FA was a lot more restrictive. 

Wyche was responsible for getting the Buccaneers started in the right direction.  By contrast, Dungy took over a team with 2 future HofFers and a borderline HofFer that were in their second or third years.  He gets credit for building the team even further, but it was Gruden that took that team to the title. 

Much like in Indianapolis, More started the turn around and Dungy came in after the heavy lifting.

He is good, not great.

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So Peyton doesn't win playoff games. Tony Dungy wins superbowls, though.

You're still looking at the first few seasons of Manning's career, and comparing it to the seasoned veteran of 25 years old that Dungy inherited. It's a weak, lame thing to leave this obvious factor out of your numbers-only analysis as though it makes no difference whatsoever.

I didn't say he was the worst coach ever. But he's far from being an all-time great. And yes, being a scumbag is a factor which is why others are kept out of the hall.

Dungy was a massively overrated coach who made a lot of bad decisions, and his defenses were overrated. I think in the one SB season his defense was the worst run D in the NFL, giving up like 150 yards per game on the ground. What does this mean? If he has elite players, like he had in Tampa, then the D looks good (but then, it would look as good or better with any competent coach). If the players aren't, he's not going to coach up bad players into playing well. 

where did I say peyton doesn't win and Tony does? I just pointed out the fact that peyton had never won a playoff game until Tony got there.

 

Peyton was a top QB by year 2 in 1999 where he was great in the reg season and sucked in the playoff game(it would start a trend for him).  where is it written you can't win a playoff game until year 6?

 

11 wins a season makes you an all time great.  

all coaches make bad decisions and his Ds were BETTER in postseason than the overrated Pats Ds, the difference btw the franchises was at QB.

[nyjunc]

16 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Not a great point.  First, Law and Milloy were the only carryover starters from the 1996 Superbowl.  And Gruden took Dungy's Buccaneers team and won the Superbowl.

The Browns were 3-13.  Their 80s run had come to an abrupt and old halt.  Belichick had to tear it down in an era where FA was a lot more restrictive. 

Wyche was responsible for getting the Buccaneers started in the right direction.  By contrast, Dungy took over a team with 2 future HofFers and a borderline HofFer that were in their second or third years.  He gets credit for building the team even further, but it was Gruden that took that team to the title. 

Much like in Indianapolis, More started the turn around and Dungy came in after the heavy lifting.

He is good, not great.

Dungy helped build up that Tampa team, they were SB caliber when Dungy left.  after they won in 2002 what happened? they faded back to pre dungy status.

 

the Browns made 3 title games in 4 years from 1986-1989.  they had one down year in 1990 then BB took over.  Bruce Coslet took a MUCH worse Jets team and led us to playoffs in year 2.  BB couldn't do it w/ better franchise and players in Cle until year 4 and then a year later they were back down at the bottom.

 

If Wyche was responsible they wouldn't have fired him.

 

so Gruden gets credit for winning in TB even though it was SB ready team that had played ina  title game but Dungy doesn't get credit for winning SB in Indy even though he took over a team that never won a single playoff game?  Huh?

11 wins a season despite taking over worst franchise in the sport tells me he belongs.  he was a lock HOFer once he retired.

[greenwichjetfan]

For all of the people still arguing with nyjunk, all you need to know is that he's the biggest Brady homer in the world. The only things he's more emotional about than Tom Brady in his bed, are (1) hating the Giants because they owned Brady in two SBs and ruined his perfect season (2) hating Peyton and Montana because they are the two arguments against Brady's GOAT status. Notice all of his posts in this thread have a common theme:

- Dungy's a HoFer because he dragged Peyton to a SB = discredit's Peyton.
- Coughlin and his 2 SBs over the pats including an 18-0 pats team = Coughlin isn't a HoFer, but Dungy is.
- Montana had Walsh and Rice, and Rice used stickem (nevermind all of the pats cheating), and the 49ers D was the best that money could buy before the salary cap.
- Belichick is nothing without Brady. He inherited the 1996 super bowl team in 2000 and still stunk till Brady came along.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

For all of the people still arguing with nyjunk, all you need to know is that he's the biggest Brady homer in the world. The only things he's more emotional about than Tom Brady in his bed, are (1) hating the Giants because they owned Brady in two SBs and ruined his perfect season (2) hating Peyton and Montana because they are the two arguments against Brady's GOAT status. Notice all of his posts in this thread have a common theme:

- Dungy's a HoFer because he dragged Peyton to a SB = discredit's Peyton.
- Coughlin and his 2 SBs over the pats including an 18-0 pats team = Coughlin isn't a HoFer, but Dungy is.
- Montana had Walsh and Rice, and Rice used stickem (nevermind all of the pats cheating), and the 49ers D was the best that money could buy before the salary cap.
- Belichick is nothing without Brady. He inherited the 1996 super bowl team in 2000 and still stunk till Brady came along.

adults are trying to have an intelligent football discussion, please do not ruin it.  Just b/c I disagree w/ the other posters here doesn't mean they have to act childish like you do when your weak arguments are roasted.  if you have something positive to contribute to the discussion then please do, if you you just post your typical whiny responses then please spare us.  

[greenwichjetfan]

16 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

adults are trying to have an intelligent football discussion, please do not ruin it.  Just b/c I disagree w/ the other posters here doesn't mean they have to act childish like you do when your weak arguments are roasted.  if you have something positive to contribute to the discussion then please do, if you you just post your typical whiny responses then please spare us.  

Insults on insults just because I can see through your bullsh*t. How am I acting childish? I posted facts. Point out what I said was incorrect, refute them, or GTFO. 

You calling anyone else childish after that post is delicious. 

[nyjunc]

16 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Insults on insults just because I can see through your bullsh*t. How am I acting childish? I posted facts. Point out what I said was incorrect, refute them, or GTFO. 

You calling anyone else childish after that post is delicious. 

you see through nothing, you cannot keep up in discussions and just attack me.  I am used to it, there a million folks like you on these boards.  

 

what you said was asinine as usual.

 

Never once have I said Dungy dragged Peyton to a title. the facts are though the Peyton had yet to win a playoff game and Indy was led by their D in the 2006 postseason.

 

I posted my excellent argument for Dungy over Coughlin, look it up.  the 2 aren't close.  it's nice Coughlin had 2 great months but greatness is about being at or near the top over time.  Tom was fired twice, missed the playoffs more than making it and has missed postseason 6 of the last 7 years.  that's not a HOFer.  Good coach, not a HOFer.

 

I don't care about "cheating" but when whiny fans bring up supposed cheating by a slight deflation of a ball we must discuss the things SF did such as w/ the headsets and stickum.  folks like you want to ignore than and only discuss speculation b/c you hate a certain team.

 

The facts are BB is a complete failure as a HC in the NFL w/o Tom Brady.  just look at his record w/ and w/o.  There's not much else to say.

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, nyjunc said:

where did I say peyton doesn't win and Tony does? I just pointed out the fact that peyton had never won a playoff game until Tony got there.

 

Peyton was a top QB by year 2 in 1999 where he was great in the reg season and sucked in the playoff game(it would start a trend for him).  where is it written you can't win a playoff game until year 6?

 

11 wins a season makes you an all time great.  

all coaches make bad decisions and his Ds were BETTER in postseason than the overrated Pats Ds, the difference btw the franchises was at QB.

Right there, you did it again. Peyton lost games. Dungy won games.

11 wins a season means you had an always-healthy, uniquely superior QB only during his prime. He may have had some good passing stats by 1999 but ask him and I guarantee he'll tell you he was a far better QB years later. If you think otherwise I sense you are alone in this opinion. 

[nyjunc]

13 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Right there, you did it again. Peyton lost games. Dungy won games.

11 wins a season means you had an always-healthy, uniquely superior QB only during his prime. He may have had some good passing stats by 1999 but ask him and I guarantee he'll tell you he was a far better QB years later. If you think otherwise I sense you are alone in this opinion. 

That is your interpretation.  

the 11 wins a year also counts his time in Tampa where he took over an awful franchise and had his only losing season.

 

yes he was better later(and the #s increased thanks to new rules as well) but still the same choker.  the 2 SB runs were led by his defenses.  he's an all time great reg season QB and gave his teams chances to contend every season but he also threw his teams seasons away in the playoffs more often than not.

 

Tony Dungy took over the worst franchise in the sport and had them as SB contenders a few years in, he then took an Indy team that had yet to win a playoff game w/ Peyton and year 2 they were in the title game(where Peyton threw the game away).   

 

Is Tony Dungy Lombardi, Walsh, Gibbs, Brown, etc...?  absolutely not but he is a worthy HOFer.

 

 

[PFSIKH]

4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

That is your interpretation.  

the 11 wins a year also counts his time in Tampa where he took over an awful franchise and had his only losing season.

yes he was better later(and the #s increased thanks to new rules as well) but still the same choker.  the 2 SB runs were led by his defenses.  he's an all time great reg season QB and gave his teams chances to contend every season but he also threw his teams seasons away in the playoffs more often than not.

Tony Dungy took over the worst franchise in the sport and had them as SB contenders a few years in, he then took an Indy team that had yet to win a playoff game w/ Peyton and year 2 they were in the title game(where Peyton threw the game away).   

Is Tony Dungy Lombardi, Walsh, Gibbs, Brown, etc...?  absolutely not but he is a worthy HOFer.

Again, you are cherry picking points.

"Took over the worst franchise...."  While technically true, Sam Wyche took over the abortion in Tampa.  After starting the project and drafting 2xHofFers, Tony came in to continue the rebuilding process.  There were a whole four years of building you want to dismiss. 

It is the same in Indy.  Mora took over a 3-13 team.  Guided Peyton through his growing pains early in his career.  In comes Tony as Peyton is entering his 5th year, promptly loses the first playoff game 41-0, but he was there when Peyton won his first.

As much as Peyton struggle sin the playoffs, he was bound to win a playoff game or two. 

Cincy should hire Dungy because he is almost guaranteed to win them a game. 

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Again, you are cherry picking points.

"Took over the worst franchise...."  While technically true, Sam Wyche took over the abortion in Tampa.  After starting the project and drafting 2xHofFers, Tony came in to continue the rebuilding process.  There were a whole four years of building you want to dismiss. 

It is the same in Indy.  Mora took over a 3-13 team.  Guided Peyton through his growing pains early in his career.  In comes Tony as Peyton is entering his 5th year, promptly loses the first playoff game 41-0, but he was there when Peyton won his first.

As much as Peyton struggle sin the playoffs, he was bound to win a playoff game or two. 

Cincy should hire Dungy because he is almost guaranteed to win them a game. 

ok, to clarify.  Gruden walks into SB team and wins and he gets all credit, Dungy inherits a couple of players and gets no credit?  I don't understand this?

 

Wyche was there for 4 seasons and didn't have a .500 record in any of them. 

Mora had 4 seasons, did have 2 playoff seasons and couldn't win a playoff game then went 6-10 his final season.  

 

Again, Dungy isn't on the level of the top HOFers but he belongs in the HOF, he didn't need the greatest QB of all time before he started winning.

[PFSIKH]

6 hours ago, nyjunc said:

ok, to clarify.  Gruden walks into SB team and wins and he gets all credit, Dungy inherits a couple of players and gets no credit?  I don't understand this?

Wyche was there for 4 seasons and didn't have a .500 record in any of them. 

Mora had 4 seasons, did have 2 playoff seasons and couldn't win a playoff game then went 6-10 his final season.  

Again, Dungy isn't on the level of the top HOFers but he belongs in the HOF, he didn't need the greatest QB of all time before he started winning.

You are doing the same thing for Dungy.

He did not take over the 3-13 Buccaneers.  Wyche did.  Wyche built that team and left a real good foundation.  Tony deserves credit for what he did, but he was fired because he did not get the job done.  Gruden did.

Then in Indianapolis, Mora took over another 3-13 team.  Mora built the foundation.  Again, Tony deserves credit for what he accomplished, but he also inherited Manning.

You knock Belichick, wrongly, for his Browns tenure even though he was in a far worst situation than Tony by saying he has benefited from Brady.  He has, but what affect did Manning have on Tony's Won-Loss record?  He averaged a 9-7 record without Manning. 

[Sperm Edwards]

31 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

You are doing the same thing for Dungy.

He did not take over the 3-13 Buccaneers.  Wyche did.  Wyche built that team and left a real good foundation.  Tony deserves credit for what he did, but he was fired because he did not get the job done.  Gruden did.

Then in Indianapolis, Mora took over another 3-13 team.  Mora built the foundation.  Again, Tony deserves credit for what he accomplished, but he also inherited Manning.

You knock Belichick, wrongly, for his Browns tenure even though he was in a far worst situation than Tony by saying he has benefited from Brady.  He has, but what affect did Manning have on Tony's Won-Loss record?  He averaged a 9-7 record without Manning. 

Don't bother. When the Colts lost, it was Manning's loss. When the Colts won, it was Dungy's win. When the D didn't play well, it wasn't his fault and the defense just fell apart or he was still learning 20+ years into his coaching career; when the D didn't blow it then all credit goes to Dungy. lol. Oh, and Manning's only a great regular season QB but what makes Dungy an all time great HC is his regular season record. Get how that works?  

Never mind the year after he's gone from Tampa and Indy, with embarrassing WC loss exits both times, both of those teams go to the SB the very next year without him, winning one and coming pretty close in the other (a late Manning pick 6 made the final score look far more lopsided than that game was). 

- Never mind his averaging 9 wins as a HC without Peyton Manning, as you mentioned. Not to mention his spotty at best resume pre-Tampa Bay. Well if that's not the stuff of HOFers I don't know what is. Dungy's annual coaching decision to bench his starters every year in Indy was often the team's undoing, as his hot team that was rolling in the regular season often turned into a flat group in the playoffs. They went 1 and done 4x in 7 years, then Dungy's supporters blame the players that went cold as a result of those annual coaching decisions.

His big improvement paper tiger #2 pass defense got shredded by Chad Pennington, who never had such an easy time QBing a game in his career, along with Jordan eating up their garbage run defense. Dungy's defenses in Indy (without the crazy-great roster he had in Tampa) annually made sh*tty run defenses into such an art form you'd think that was its designed outcome. As much or more than Manning coming up small, that aspect of Dungy's wonderful defense was typically the culprit of the Colts getting bounced from the playoffs every year, as they often got steamrolled and/or clock-controlled by the other team's ground game.

But of course let's focus on just the one post-season where this genius defense "only" gave up 3 TDs and 2 FGs in 1 of the playoff games, which would have bounced them from the playoffs if not for Moore and the offense, plus Belichick pretty much abandoning the run in the 4th Q, even when they were trying to run down the clock against the Colts' historically horrible rush D. The other 3 games they beat Herm's Chiefs (lol) after Herm proudly boasted his gameplan to Dungy at dinner before the game; the Ravens (I hate taking away from a good performance, but still Baltimore's offense was just meh); and Chicago's offense was paper tiger stuff, beating up terrible teams & terrible defenses in particular all season long. Name the really tough defensive matchups the Bears manhandled that year. You can't because there weren't any. That was Dungy's 'masterful' defense of the 2006 playoffs. Blowing it in their only really tough task (NE) and that D getting rescued by Tom Moore and the offense that still put up 30+ points (including the game winning 2 minute drill TD), even with the early pick-6. Left up to the genius defense, that season ends in a playoff bounce like all his other ones before and after that, and he finishes his entire career without reaching a single SB.

Dungy's HOF bust should be a likeness of Peyton Manning, with Tom Moore budding out of Manning's ginormous forehead.

[Sperm Edwards]

Also lol with this "Dungy built" stuff in Tampa that's always mindlessly repeated. Gruden walks into Dungy's SB team? This is said as though Dungy drafted the whole team and signed all its free agents (or presumably he's to be credited with drafting and signing all the good ones). Gruden "walked into" a team Dungy didn't at all build by himself, mostly by himself, or even half by himself.

Neither of Tampa's two highest defensive draft picks from the Dungy years (Upshaw & McFarland) played even 1 snap of the 2002 playoffs under Gruden. Plus there are more Dungy defensive starters that never played for Gruden. Donnie Abraham and Damien Robinson went to the Jets. Marcus Jones? Off the team. Jamie Duncan? Off the team. Hardy Nickerson (brought in 3 years before Dungy) was gone after the 1999 season. Not one of Tampa's 2001 defensive draftees started for the 2002 Super Bowl champs. So this repeated myth is a load of sh*t if you ask me.

Ah, but what about most of the rest of the defense Dungy supposedly "built" that Gruden inherited?

McCay was the GM and drafted the 2 best Tampa defenders Dungy ever had (Sapp and Brooks) in 1995. Ahanotu was drafted in 1993. John Lynch was drafted in 1993. And again, Nickerson was gone after '99 but he was a core member and the leader of Dungy's defense in his first 4 seasons. That's 4 of Dungy's core pro bowlers and another good starter on Dungy's DL that were on the team already while Dungy was still busy running Minnesota's defense into the ground (just like he did to Pittsburgh in his other DC stint). Simeon Rice wasn't drafted by Dungy, wasn't signed by Dungy, and his contract wasn't negotiated by Dungy. 

McCay had total control there. Then second in command in the front office, McCay's head of player personnel, wasn't Dungy it was Jerry Angelo. Their head of scouting while they drafted all those players was Tim Russell (who then took over as Director of Player Personnel for Dungy's final 2001 season).

I'm not suggesting Dungy had no input during the drafts, or was never asked about bringing in or letting go of veterans, but none of Tampa's team-building hierarchy in the front office changed with the hiring of Tony Dungy.

From the six Dungy-years Tampa drafts, Gruden's starters on defense (for his Super Bowl run) were Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, Dexter Jackson, Shelton Quarrels, and Alshermond Singleton (who was just a career backup under Dungy). And it's a huge stretch to suggest none of them would be there absent Dungy; that suddenly the GM, director of player personnel, and lead scout all took a back seat to Dungy during the draft, even though he was coaching not scouting college teams all season long every year.

This dirtbag's alleged team-building greatness is a big, media-driven myth.

[JohnnyLV]

Manning likely would have a couple more Super Bowls if Polian and Dungy did not rest their starters every time that the Colts clinched early. It is not coincidence that the year Peyton won in Indy was the year they were a wild card. Manning has always been a momentum groove oriented QB. He needs continuous reps to stay sharp and play well. He gets rusty fast when not playing yet Polian and Dungy killed all that momentum almost every year he played.

Dungy was a crappy head coach. He is a guy like Jeff Fischer, a guy that is very well spoken and talks a great coaching game but actually sucks as a head coach. Dungy is maybe the least deserving HOF'er ever. 

Sort of like when Switzer won the SB, you could put almost any HC on those Indy teams and they would have dominated that division because of Manning. Period.

 

 

[nyjunc]

12 hours ago, PFSIKH said:

You are doing the same thing for Dungy.

He did not take over the 3-13 Buccaneers.  Wyche did.  Wyche built that team and left a real good foundation.  Tony deserves credit for what he did, but he was fired because he did not get the job done.  Gruden did.

Then in Indianapolis, Mora took over another 3-13 team.  Mora built the foundation.  Again, Tony deserves credit for what he accomplished, but he also inherited Manning.

You knock Belichick, wrongly, for his Browns tenure even though he was in a far worst situation than Tony by saying he has benefited from Brady.  He has, but what affect did Manning have on Tony's Won-Loss record?  He averaged a 9-7 record without Manning. 

Ok, TB had a few building blocks but Wych was there 4 years and didn't even get to .500.

ok so Gruden gets all the credit and Dungy gets none.  got it.  gruden inherits SB caliber team and wins it's all John, Dungy inheits pieces in plays to eventually make a run and they do and he gets no credit.  I don't get this?

 

TB was a million times worse than Cleveland and BB had ONE winning record, ONE playoff app in FIVE seasons.  Bruce Coslet took over a far worse organization w/ us in 1990 and by year 2 he had us in the playoffs.

 

Averaging 9-7 w/o peyton is better than averaging 7-9 w/o Brady, right?

 

 

[nyjunc]

9 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Don't bother. When the Colts lost, it was Manning's loss. When the Colts won, it was Dungy's win. When the D didn't play well, it wasn't his fault and the defense just fell apart or he was still learning 20+ years into his coaching career; when the D didn't blow it then all credit goes to Dungy. lol. Oh, and Manning's only a great regular season QB but what makes Dungy an all time great HC is his regular season record. Get how that works?  

Never mind the year after he's gone from Tampa and Indy, with embarrassing WC loss exits both times, both of those teams go to the SB the very next year without him, winning one and coming pretty close in the other (a late Manning pick 6 made the final score look far more lopsided than that game was). 

- Never mind his averaging 9 wins as a HC without Peyton Manning, as you mentioned. Not to mention his spotty at best resume pre-Tampa Bay. Well if that's not the stuff of HOFers I don't know what is. Dungy's annual coaching decision to bench his starters every year in Indy was often the team's undoing, as his hot team that was rolling in the regular season often turned into a flat group in the playoffs. They went 1 and done 4x in 7 years, then Dungy's supporters blame the players that went cold as a result of those annual coaching decisions.

His big improvement paper tiger #2 pass defense got shredded by Chad Pennington, who never had such an easy time QBing a game in his career, along with Jordan eating up their garbage run defense. Dungy's defenses in Indy (without the crazy-great roster he had in Tampa) annually made sh*tty run defenses into such an art form you'd think that was its designed outcome. As much or more than Manning coming up small, that aspect of Dungy's wonderful defense was typically the culprit of the Colts getting bounced from the playoffs every year, as they often got steamrolled and/or clock-controlled by the other team's ground game.

But of course let's focus on just the one post-season where this genius defense "only" gave up 3 TDs and 2 FGs in 1 of the playoff games, which would have bounced them from the playoffs if not for Moore and the offense, plus Belichick pretty much abandoning the run in the 4th Q, even when they were trying to run down the clock against the Colts' historically horrible rush D. The other 3 games they beat Herm's Chiefs (lol) after Herm proudly boasted his gameplan to Dungy at dinner before the game; the Ravens (I hate taking away from a good performance, but still Baltimore's offense was just meh); and Chicago's offense was paper tiger stuff, beating up terrible teams & terrible defenses in particular all season long. Name the really tough defensive matchups the Bears manhandled that year. You can't because there weren't any. That was Dungy's 'masterful' defense of the 2006 playoffs. Blowing it in their only really tough task (NE) and that D getting rescued by Tom Moore and the offense that still put up 30+ points (including the game winning 2 minute drill TD), even with the early pick-6. Left up to the genius defense, that season ends in a playoff bounce like all his other ones before and after that, and he finishes his entire career without reaching a single SB.

Dungy's HOF bust should be a likeness of Peyton Manning, with Tom Moore budding out of Manning's ginormous forehead.

at no point have I given Dungy all credit and taken away all from Manning.  The facts are his 2 SBs wins were led by D though.

 

Please list all the times Indy lost b/c of the D and not b/c of manning?

2002: both

2003: O, 4 Peyton INts

2004: O, 3 pts after Indy complained to league following 2003 and they made it easier for offenses.

2005: O, colossal choke.  they even incorrectly overturned an INT thrown by Peyton that would have sealed the game earlier then after failing on downs inside Indy 5 the D forces TO and brings ball out to midfield and he still couldn't get the game to OT(Mark sanchez in similar spot set up his K for chip shot and the win in 2010)

2007: O, one of the rare times peyton led O to 20 or more in playoff loss but 2 RZ INTs killed INt in 4 pt loss.

2008: O, needed just 1 1st down to end game, takes sack inside his 5 and sets up SDs game tying drive.

Not once under Dungy did they lose primarily b/c of D in the playoffs.  the only time the D was bad was against us but you can win a game allowing 41, it's impossible to win scoring ZERO.

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, johnnysd said:

Manning likely would have a couple more Super Bowls if Polian and Dungy did not rest their starters every time that the Colts clinched early. It is not coincidence that the year Peyton won in Indy was the year they were a wild card. Manning has always been a momentum groove oriented QB. He needs continuous reps to stay sharp and play well. He gets rusty fast when not playing yet Polian and Dungy killed all that momentum almost every year he played.

Dungy was a crappy head coach. He is a guy like Jeff Fischer, a guy that is very well spoken and talks a great coaching game but actually sucks as a head coach. Dungy is maybe the least deserving HOF'er ever. 

Sort of like when Switzer won the SB, you could put almost any HC on those Indy teams and they would have dominated that division because of Manning. Period.

 

 

That is a terrible excuse.  they were WC team in 2000, were one and done against legendary choking D.  they were WC in 2002, lost 41-0.  WC in 2003, in title game he throws 4 picks, WC in 2004 and in div rd leads O to 3 pts.  WC in 2008, lose to 8-8 team in wc rd.

 

how does a crappy HC average 11 wins a season after inheriting worst franchise in the sport for his first job?  switzer walked into a dynasty, Dungy took over in Indy when they had never won a playoff game w/ Manning.

[nyjunc]

8 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Also lol with this "Dungy built" stuff in Tampa that's always mindlessly repeated. Gruden walks into Dungy's SB team? This is said as though Dungy drafted the whole team and signed all its free agents (or presumably he's to be credited with drafting and signing all the good ones). Gruden "walked into" a team Dungy didn't at all build by himself, mostly by himself, or even half by himself.

Neither of Tampa's two highest defensive draft picks from the Dungy years (Upshaw & McFarland) played even 1 snap of the 2002 playoffs under Gruden. Plus there are more Dungy defensive starters that never played for Gruden. Donnie Abraham and Damien Robinson went to the Jets. Marcus Jones? Off the team. Jamie Duncan? Off the team. Hardy Nickerson (brought in 3 years before Dungy) was gone after the 1999 season. Not one of Tampa's 2001 defensive draftees started for the 2002 Super Bowl champs. So this repeated myth is a load of sh*t if you ask me.

Ah, but what about most of the rest of the defense Dungy supposedly "built" that Gruden inherited?

McCay was the GM and drafted the 2 best Tampa defenders Dungy ever had (Sapp and Brooks) in 1995. Ahanotu was drafted in 1993. John Lynch was drafted in 1993. And again, Nickerson was gone after '99 but he was a core member and the leader of Dungy's defense in his first 4 seasons. That's 4 of Dungy's core pro bowlers and another good starter on Dungy's DL that were on the team already while Dungy was still busy running Minnesota's defense into the ground (just like he did to Pittsburgh in his other DC stint). Simeon Rice wasn't drafted by Dungy, wasn't signed by Dungy, and his contract wasn't negotiated by Dungy. 

McCay had total control there. Then second in command in the front office, McCay's head of player personnel, wasn't Dungy it was Jerry Angelo. Their head of scouting while they drafted all those players was Tim Russell (who then took over as Director of Player Personnel for Dungy's final 2001 season).

I'm not suggesting Dungy had no input during the drafts, or was never asked about bringing in or letting go of veterans, but none of Tampa's team-building hierarchy in the front office changed with the hiring of Tony Dungy.

From the six Dungy-years Tampa drafts, Gruden's starters on defense (for his Super Bowl run) were Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, Dexter Jackson, Shelton Quarrels, and Alshermond Singleton (who was just a career backup under Dungy). And it's a huge stretch to suggest none of them would be there absent Dungy; that suddenly the GM, director of player personnel, and lead scout all took a back seat to Dungy during the draft, even though he was coaching not scouting college teams all season long every year.

This dirtbag's alleged team-building greatness is a big, media-driven myth.

Coaches coach, I evaluate him on what he did w/ those players which was nothing but win.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, nyjunc said:

at no point have I given Dungy all credit and taken away all from Manning.  The facts are his 2 SBs wins were led by D though.

 

Please list all the times Indy lost b/c of the D and not b/c of manning?

2002: both

2003: O, 4 Peyton INts

2004: O, 3 pts after Indy complained to league following 2003 and they made it easier for offenses.

2005: O, colossal choke.  they even incorrectly overturned an INT thrown by Peyton that would have sealed the game earlier then after failing on downs inside Indy 5 the D forces TO and brings ball out to midfield and he still couldn't get the game to OT(Mark sanchez in similar spot set up his K for chip shot and the win in 2010)

2007: O, one of the rare times peyton led O to 20 or more in playoff loss but 2 RZ INTs killed INt in 4 pt loss.

2008: O, needed just 1 1st down to end game, takes sack inside his 5 and sets up SDs game tying drive.

Not once under Dungy did they lose primarily b/c of D in the playoffs.  the only time the D was bad was against us but you can win a game allowing 41, it's impossible to win scoring ZERO.

Your facts are opinions, not facts. If not for the offense scoring 30 points in 2006, that "led by D" team doesn't sniff the Super Bowl. Incredibly, you still credit the defense for a win in a game they surrendered 5 scoring drives (3 of them TD drives).

And it was a common theme. Pretty much every time they lost in the playoffs the defense got run over. Also you blame the offense as though Dungy was just a defensive coordinator or a bystander. If he's a great head coach, worthy of HOF recognition, then that is a copout if I've ever seen one. But it's a common theme: players do well it's credit to Dungy; players do poorly it's because of the players but not Dungy. Convenient position to take if someone doesn't realize you're doing it.

[Sperm Edwards]

6 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Coaches coach, I evaluate him on what he did w/ those players which was nothing but win.

First of all he did a lot more than just win. He also lost, which is why they fired him. They won it all only because he was away from the team. And even still, everyone says Gruden won with "Dungy's team" or "Dungy's defense" which is a crock. Dungy didn't build it and there was a good amount of turnover as well even from 2001 to 2002. Ultimately, less than half the (starting) SB winning defense were Dungy starters or brought in during Dungy's 6 years there. So the idea that it was a defense that Dungy built is a media-driven myth.

[nyjunc]

45 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Your facts are opinions, not facts. If not for the offense scoring 30 points in 2006, that "led by D" team doesn't sniff the Super Bowl. Incredibly, you still credit the defense for a win in a game they surrendered 5 scoring drives (3 of them TD drives).

And it was a common theme. Pretty much every time they lost in the playoffs the defense got run over. Also you blame the offense as though Dungy was just a defensive coordinator or a bystander. If he's a great head coach, worthy of HOF recognition, then that is a copout if I've ever seen one. But it's a common theme: players do well it's credit to Dungy; players do poorly it's because of the players but not Dungy. Convenient position to take if someone doesn't realize you're doing it.

if not for the offense scoring 6 pts in the 1st half and giving up a TD in 2006 they don't need that comeback and they win comfortably.

I give the D credit for playign well in the 2nd half and the O credit for playing great in the 2nd half( a rare great postseason performance for Peyton).

In the Dungy years the O averaged 12.7 PPG in playoff losses and somehow you are blaming the D?  seriously?  seriously?

[Sperm Edwards]

4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

if not for the offense scoring 6 pts in the 1st half and giving up a TD in 2006 they don't need that comeback and they win comfortably.

I give the D credit for playign well in the 2nd half and the O credit for playing great in the 2nd half( a rare great postseason performance for Peyton).

In the Dungy years the O averaged 12.7 PPG in playoff losses and somehow you are blaming the D?  seriously?  seriously?

Exactly. You credit a defense that gave up 5 scoring drives. 3 of them TD drives. 

To your last point, in the Dungy years I blame Dungy. Or is it only to his credit when good things happen and he's to be absolved when bad things happen? I think that's what you're trying for here, my love.

[nyjunc]

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

First of all he did a lot more than just win. He also lost, which is why they fired him. They won it all only because he was away from the team. And even still, everyone says Gruden won with "Dungy's team" or "Dungy's defense" which is a crock. Dungy didn't build it and there was a good amount of turnover as well even from 2001 to 2002. Ultimately, less than half the (starting) SB winning defense were Dungy starters or brought in during Dungy's 6 years there. So the idea that it was a defense that Dungy built is a media-driven myth.

He was fired for winning 9 games and making the playoffs.  contrast that to Coughling who was fired in jax  who was fired for 3 consecutive losing seasons missing the playoffs then fired for 3 consecutive losing seasons w/ the Giants and missing the playoffs 6 of 7 seasons.

the bulk of that TB team were guys leftover from the previous regime.  guys that learned how to play and win under Dungy.

 

every defensive starter in the SB against Oakland played under Tony Dungy.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Exactly. You credit a defense that gave up 5 scoring drives. 3 of them TD drives. 

To your last point, in the Dungy years I blame Dungy. Or is it only to his credit when good things happen and he's to be absolved when bad things happen? I think that's what you're trying for here, my love.

3 TD drives, only 2 more than the O gave up and the D allowed 1 2nd half TD against the best QB of all time.

Dungy deserves blame for some postseason failures but Manning deserves more, Manning choked before and after Dungy and the only SB he actually contributed to winning(one great half in 4 postseason games) was under Dungy.

[Sperm Edwards]

10 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

He was fired for winning 9 games and making the playoffs.  contrast that to Coughling who was fired in jax  who was fired for 3 consecutive losing seasons missing the playoffs then fired for 3 consecutive losing seasons w/ the Giants and missing the playoffs 6 of 7 seasons.

the bulk of that TB team were guys leftover from the previous regime.  guys that learned how to play and win under Dungy.

 

every defensive starter in the SB against Oakland played under Tony Dungy.

I don't know what Coughlin has to do with anything. He was fired for winning ONLY 9 games with a roster that should have dominated. You say 9 wins as though that was a good season with a top notch roster.

Put it this way. Look at a team that wins a dozen or more games and finishes with a SB win. If that same team was only coached up to win 9 games under a different HC, then that other HC did a terrible job. That is why they fired him, and history shows they were totally correct to do so.

Your last line is meaningless (not to mention false), unless you want to again go back to some claim that Dungy was the de facto GM and that HOF and superstar players were a bunch of stiffs but for the masterful coaching of Tony Dungy. Or is it that he made Simeon Rice a great pass rusher perhaps? Maybe he telepathically taught Greg Spires how to play while he was a backup DE with Cleveland in 2001?

"Learned how to play and win," lol. Like nobody learns to be good at football if they weren't coached by Tony Dungy. Lol. Because that was totally Dungy's career history as a coach thus far when he got to Tampa. Seems to me his resume was teaching players how to get worse, since he destroyed two defenses as DC and did a lame job as DBC in between that despite veteran/better defensive coaching above him.

[nyjunc]

8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't know what Coughlin has to do with anything. He was fired for winning ONLY 9 games with a roster that should have dominated. You say 9 wins as though that was a good season with a top notch roster.

Put it this way. Look at a team that wins a dozen or more games and finishes with a SB win. If that same team was only coached up to win 9 games under a different HC, then that other HC did a terrible job. That is why they fired him, and history shows they were totally correct to do so.

Your last line is meaningless (not to mention false), unless you want to again go back to some claim that Dungy was the de facto GM and that HOF and superstar players were a bunch of stiffs but for the masterful coaching of Tony Dungy. Or is it that he made Simeon Rice a great pass rusher perhaps? Maybe he telepathically taught Greg Spires how to play while he was a backup DE with Cleveland in 2001?

"Learned how to play and win," lol. Like nobody learns to be good at football if they weren't coached by Tony Dungy. Lol. Because that was totally Dungy's career history as a coach thus far when he got to Tampa. Seems to me his resume was teaching players how to get worse, since he destroyed two defenses as DC and did a lame job as DBC in between that despite veteran/better defensive coaching above him.

coughlin was brought up and others think he belongs in the Hall and not Dungy which is laughable.

when you don't have an elite QB the record can fluctuate.  the year before they won 10, the year before that 11.  despite inheriting an awful franchise he had just one losing season.

you are the one harping on players, I am just stating a fact that every starter in the SB was on the roster under Dungy.

they could learn from other coaches but they learned under Tony and soon after Tony was gone TB was back to their losing ways.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

12 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

coughlin was brought up and others think he belongs in the Hall and not Dungy which is laughable.

when you don't have an elite QB the record can fluctuate.  the year before they won 10, the year before that 11.  despite inheriting an awful franchise he had just one losing season.

you are the one harping on players, I am just stating a fact that every starter in the SB was on the roster under Dungy.

they could learn from other coaches but they learned under Tony and soon after Tony was gone TB was back to their losing ways.

 

You can state that non-fact all you want. It still isn't true.

Even if they only learned because of the wonders of Dungy, which isn't even likely, what you're describing then is an assistant or positional coach not a head coach. A head coach puts it all together and knows what to do with the talent mid-game. A positional coach has great talent, coaches them well in practice, and loses anyway, often due to poor coaching decisions like benching a hot team for a month.

Soon after Tony was gone? They also replaced the whole front office, and gave up a boatload of high draft picks for Keyshawn and Gruden. Once that talent got older the picks weren't there to replace, and when they made picks they screwed them up often enough. But that has nothing to do with Dungy, since again he wasn't the GM (though you seem to like to pretend he was).

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You can state that non-fact all you want. It still isn't true.

Even if they only learned because of the wonders of Dungy, which isn't even likely, what you're describing then is an assistant or positional coach not a head coach. A head coach puts it all together and knows what to do with the talent mid-game. A positional coach has great talent, coaches them well in practice, and loses anyway, often due to poor coaching decisions like benching a hot team for a month.

Soon after Tony was gone? They also replaced the whole front office, and gave up a boatload of high draft picks for Keyshawn and Gruden. Once that talent got older the picks weren't there to replace, and when they made picks they screwed them up often enough. But that has nothing to do with Dungy, since again he wasn't the GM (though you seem to like to pretend he was).

you are struggling absorbing what I am writing.  I didn't say they ONLY learned b/c of Dungy.  could have done it w/ other coaches too but this particular group learned under tony Dungy.

it's interesting to know that Tony didn't do anything.  I guess it was all Sam Wyche and Gruden w/ McKay running the show.  McKay was great in Atl too.  

 

The bottom line is this, TB was a joke pre Tony and soon turned into a joke again post Tony.  Peyton never even won a playoff game(Mark sanchez did as a rookie) until Year 6 which was his 2nd w/ Tony.  The man won 11 games a season, he's a worthy HOFer no matter how many excuses you want to give me.  

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, nyjunc said:

you are struggling absorbing what I am writing.  I didn't say they ONLY learned b/c of Dungy.  could have done it w/ other coaches too but this particular group learned under tony Dungy.

it's interesting to know that Tony didn't do anything.  I guess it was all Sam Wyche and Gruden w/ McKay running the show.  McKay was great in Atl too.  

 

The bottom line is this, TB was a joke pre Tony and soon turned into a joke again post Tony.  Peyton never even won a playoff game(Mark sanchez did as a rookie) until Year 6 which was his 2nd w/ Tony.  The man won 11 games a season, he's a worthy HOFer no matter how many excuses you want to give me.  

No I'm getting it. You want to say on the one hand he's to be judged only as a coach not as a GM. Then when someone else does better as a coach with the same players you want to point to the strength of the roster they inherited and the poor roster a few years later. You want both sides of an argument when each suits you. So I totally get it.

He was put into situations with great players in Tampa, and an all time great QB in Indy. When he wasn't gifted greatness, those other units fell on their faces. 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No I'm getting it. You want to say on the one hand he's to be judged only as a coach not as a GM. Then when someone else does better as a coach with the same players you want to point to the strength of the roster they inherited and the poor roster a few years later. You want both sides of an argument when each suits you. So I totally get it.

He was put into situations with great players in Tampa, and an all time great QB in Indy. When he wasn't gifted greatness, those other units fell on their faces. 

you are the one who brought up the players telling me half the roster was different.  I simply countered w/ a fact that every started on D played under Dungy.

what a great situation in Tampa w/ the worst organization in sports.  how lucky! this man made a title game w/ Shaun King as his QB but he sucks.