Ryan Fitzpatrick: MERGED

[Smashmouth]

6 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

5-7 win football teams do not compete for Division titles.

people with lives don't have 29,780 posts on rivals message boards

[Mike135]

1 hour ago, Bergen Jet said:

This has me concerned.  Why would he suddenly act like that to Brandon Marshall who has been a great supporter of Fitz AND made Fitz's job that much easier.  What does he gain in terms of leverage by cutting ties with the number 1 receiver?

Text Message Conversation 

Marshall (to Fitz):  "Waaaasssss-uppppp Fitz-MAGIC?    Ya lucky bastard!  You got to miss OTAs.  Man those suck.  But you did miss Decker's wife!  Like WHOA !  So when ya finally coming back?"

Fitz (to Marshall):  "Hey bud.  Good to hear from ya.  Actually I wanted to talk to you about that.  I'm real close to coming back, just need your help with something."

Marshall (to Fitz):  "Anything man!  I loooove you.  You're so great!  ...and that beard!  Whatcha need my homie?  Just name it.  Anything."

Fitz (to Marshall):  "Macc will be in touch with you.  Thanks man, appreciate it."

Macc (to Marshall):  "Hi Brandon, it's Macc.  Hope you and your family are enjoying the break.  My family and I are.  (But I still can't get Decker's wife outta my head.  Like WHOA!  She can get this Deck!  Amirite?  She better be around during camp.)  Fitz wanted me to reach out to you."

Marshall (to Macc):  "No doubt!  Mrs. Decker...  'sooooo hot, want to touch the heiny'.  What's up?  What do you need for my man Fitz?"

Macc (to Marshall):  "At the end of the day, gonna need you and a couple others to take a 10% pay cut."

Marshall (to Macc):  "Phuck you!  Phuck Fitz (dumbass, weak armed, nasty @ss beard having loser of a QB)  Geno is my boy!  Got it?"

Macc (to Marshall):  "lmao...  I knew it!  Fitz called me saying you and others were down to help any way possible.  I didn't believe him, but had to check.  Mangold, Decker and Revis all said the same.  See ya in a couple weeks."

Marshall (to Macc):  "Besides didn't you see that fan poll on JetNation.com?  Over 2/3s would rather roll with Geno instead of paying Fitz over 7mil."

Macc (to Fitz):  "Sorry man, NFLPA won't let guys take pay cuts for you."

Fitz (to Agent):  "Macc says NFLPA won't allow my guys to take pay cuts."

Agent (to Fitz):  "Lies.  I spoke to their agents.  Man, they're not taking pay cuts for you.  They screwed ya.  I say we keep holding out for what you're worth.  No less than 15mil per!  If it's not the Jets, so be it.  (Though it'll suck not seeing Mrs. Decker!)"

Fitz (to Agent):  "Phuckin dicks.  Don't they know I got 10 wins last season?  They're nothing w/o me.  Ok, 15mil it is."

Days later...

Marshall (to Fitz):  "What up Fitzy?  Reporters nagging me about you.  When ya coming back?  Remember, I'll help however I can."

Fitz (to Agent):  "Marshall is texting me... should I reply?  Fyi, I may be rethinking things.  I was playing some ball with neighborhood kids and a couple of them have stronger arms than I do.  Maybe we should take whatever they're offering?"

Agent (to Fitz):  "No way.  Don't talk to or text anyone!  I got this.  Trust me.  A 15mil offer is coming any day now."

 

[Flushing Roots]

51 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Text Message Conversation 

Marshall (to Fitz):  "Waaaasssss-uppppp Fitz-MAGIC?    Ya lucky bastard!  You got to miss OTAs.  Man those suck.  But you did miss Decker's wife!  Like WHOA !  So when ya finally coming back?"

Fitz (to Marshall):  "Hey bud.  Good to hear from ya.  Actually I wanted to talk to you about that.  I'm real close to coming back, just need your help with something."

Marshall (to Fitz):  "Anything man!  I loooove you.  You're so great!  ...and that beard!  Whatcha need my homie?  Just name it.  Anything."

Fitz (to Marshall):  "Macc will be in touch with you.  Thanks man, appreciate it."

Macc (to Marshall):  "Hi Brandon, it's Macc.  Hope you and your family are enjoying the break.  My family and I are.  (But I still can't get Decker's wife outta my head.  Like WHOA!  She can get this Deck!  Amirite?  She better be around during camp.)  Fitz wanted me to reach out to you."

Marshall (to Macc):  "No doubt!  Mrs. Decker...  'sooooo hot, want to touch the heiny'.  What's up?  What do you need for my man Fitz?"

Macc (to Marshall):  "At the end of the day, gonna need you and a couple others to take a 10% pay cut."

Marshall (to Macc):  "Phuck you!  Phuck Fitz (dumbass, weak armed, nasty @ss beard having loser of a QB)  Geno is my boy!  Got it?"

Macc (to Marshall):  "lmao...  I knew it!  Fitz called me saying you and others were down to help any way possible.  I didn't believe him, but had to check.  Mangold, Decker and Revis all said the same.  See ya in a couple weeks."

Marshall (to Macc):  "Besides didn't you see that fan poll on JetNation.com?  Over 2/3s would rather roll with Geno instead of paying Fitz over 7mil."

Macc (to Fitz):  "Sorry man, NFLPA won't let guys take pay cuts for you."

Fitz (to Agent):  "Macc says NFLPA won't allow my guys to take pay cuts."

Agent (to Fitz):  "Lies.  I spoke to their agents.  Man, they're not taking pay cuts for you.  They screwed ya.  I say we keep holding out for what you're worth.  No less than 15mil per!  If it's not the Jets, so be it.  (Though it'll suck not seeing Mrs. Decker!)"

Fitz (to Agent):  "Phuckin dicks.  Don't they know I got 10 wins last season?  They're nothing w/o me.  Ok, 15mil it is."

Days later...

Marshall (to Fitz):  "What up Fitzy?  Reporters nagging me about you.  When ya coming back?  Remember, I'll help however I can."

Fitz (to Agent):  "Marshall is texting me... should I reply?  Fyi, I may be rethinking things.  I was playing some ball with neighborhood kids and a couple of them have stronger arms than I do.  Maybe we should take whatever they're offering?"

Agent (to Fitz):  "No way.  Don't talk to or text anyone!  I got this.  Trust me.  A 15mil offer is coming any day now."

 

Don't hold your breath for the Pulitzer.

[ljr]

"Then again, Smith, as he enters Year 4, has never played with wide receiver Brandon Marshall, who was a big reason Fitzpatrick thrived last season. "

 

guess against Oakland doesn't count ... Nice fact checking.

 

 

"I think Fitz may retire"

 

he he has already been quoted as saying he doesn't want to retire

(probably part of why he isn't answering Marshall or anyone else right now ... His agent Jimmy Sexton must have told him to shut up while Jimmy tries to work out the best deal)

 

 

[New York Mick]

7 hours ago, PatsFanTX said:

5-7 win football teams do not compete for Division titles.

5-7 wins? Who's forfeiting against us?

[Mike135]

Just now, Flushing Roots said:

Don't hold your breath for the Pulitzer.

 darn.   

That's ok, I'm busy holding my breath for word Geno is starting anyway.

[Gas2No99]

Ryan Fitzpatrick - QB -  Free Agent

Bleacher Report's Jason Cole reports free agent Ryan Fitzpatrick believes the Jets will "give in" and sign him following their deal with RE Muhammad Wilkerson.

The Wilkerson deal opened up some cap room, which the Jets could then use toward Fitzpatrick. Fitzpatrick is supposed to play in a "celebrity" golf tournament this weekend in Lake Tahoe, and things could then move quickly after that. But word from NFL Network's Ian Rapoport on Monday was the Jets wanted to see Geno Smith with the starters for some practice reps before re-upping Fitzpatrick. If they don't know what Smith already is, that's a concern.

Related: Jets

 

Source: Bleacher Report 

Jul 19 - 2:58 PM

[Big Blocker]

1 hour ago, Maxman said:

Funny how teams with great QBs win more.

I don't think anyone said Fitz is a great Qb.  He just happens to be better than that awfulness which is Smith.

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

As a fan, I understand intellectually that my optimism or pessimism plays no role whatsoever in the course of events.

Hence I am free to be purely analytical in my review of possible decisions and outcomes.

The widely reported 12 million offer to Fitz would appear to say that Macc and Bowles believe otherwise.

Yes, he helped right our ship last year, providing (as I said) the most competent QB play we've seen in a decade here.  

An inaccurate analysis for a number of reasons.  One, as has been shown clearly, the Jets have a strong (12 million strong) desire to have Fitz start over Geno in 2016.

This cuts both ways, as clearly Fitz has priced himself out of the market for the few teams for whom he would be an upgrade at #1 QB, the Cleveland et al.  He's priced himself beyond our offer thus far as well.  This can reasonably be taken as the primary reason Fitz is unsigned today, and the evidence is simple:  If he was willing to accept less, he's have already bee signed here to the widely reported offer on the table, and would be our uncontested no-competition #1 QB.

Fitz being stubborn and holding too high an opinion of himself is not evidence of lack of interest in him, it's evidence of an incorrect reading of the NFL QB market on the part of Fitz and his agent.  

 

We all want more.  More does not exist on our roster today.  Or in Free Agency today.

We can either accept competent but average play, or we can roll the dice on a to-date failure.  

Not the best of choices to have to make.

 

That's a lot of huffing and puffing that amounts to this: the jets offered (we assume) 12 mil a year... and your point is that "obviously the jets like fitz"... Really? Like him so much that he's a free agent? Like him so much that they haven't even tried to meet him on common ground? Like him so much that they are willing to invest him beyond 2016? 

They don't think anymore of him than the other 31 teams in the NFL. Chan and Bowles have obviously decided money was better spent elsewhere. Fitz is what he is. Would i rather he was on the team? Yes. But you bet its more likely Geno turns his career around in year 4, than Fitz in year 12. 

[joewilly12]

24 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

Ryan Fitzpatrick - QB -  Free Agent

Bleacher Report's Jason Cole reports free agent Ryan Fitzpatrick believes the Jets will "give in" and sign him following their deal with RE Muhammad Wilkerson.

The Wilkerson deal opened up some cap room, which the Jets could then use toward Fitzpatrick. Fitzpatrick is supposed to play in a "celebrity" golf tournament this weekend in Lake Tahoe, and things could then move quickly after that. But word from NFL Network's Ian Rapoport on Monday was the Jets wanted to see Geno Smith with the starters for some practice reps before re-upping Fitzpatrick. If they don't know what Smith already is, that's a concern.

Related: Jets

 

Source: Bleacher Report 

Jul 19 - 2:58 PM

Give in???????????????  FU Fitzpatrick what a guy many support no wonder hes been with 6 teams in 11 years

[Colgateman]

He aint signing here get over it

[Saul Goodman]

Some of you guys are so far out of touch with the Jets and the current organizational strategy that it is really unbelievable.  

They know that they cannot win a Super Bowl with Fitzpatrick nor with Geno under center. They know that this will never happen with Geno and that he'll be off the team after the season is over if not sooner. 

The strategy for this season is to win as many games as possible, thereby creating a winning culture.

Simultaneously, they will be working on developing Petty and Hackenberg. 

Geno Smith is a non-factor. He is not part of the future, they don't care about him. 

[ljr]

41 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

Ryan Fitzpatrick - QB -  Free Agent

Bleacher Report's Jason Cole reports free agent Ryan Fitzpatrick believes the Jets will "give in" and sign him following their deal with RE Muhammad Wilkerson.

The Wilkerson deal opened up some cap room, which the Jets could then use toward Fitzpatrick. Fitzpatrick is supposed to play in a "celebrity" golf tournament this weekend in Lake Tahoe, and things could then move quickly after that. But word from NFL Network's Ian Rapoport on Monday was the Jets wanted to see Geno Smith with the starters for some practice reps before re-upping Fitzpatrick. If they don't know what Smith already is, that's a concern.

Related: Jets

 

Source: Bleacher Report 

Jul 19 - 2:58 PM

 

Source sounds fishy

Fitz is talking to Jason Cole but not Brandon Marshall ???

[Rangers9]

There's also a report out of NJ.com that the house Fitz rented the past year is on the market. 

 

[Stark]

238 PAGES!!!! holy $#!t ..... 

 

[joewilly12]

6 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

There's also a report out of NJ.com that the house Fitz rented the past year is on the market. 

 

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2016/07/ryan_fitzpatricks_house_is_for_rent_as_jets_stando.html#incart_2box_sports

[Mike135]

3 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

There's also a report out of NJ.com that the house Fitz rented the past year is on the market. 

 

Thanks for the heads up.  Great news.

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2016/07/ryan_fitzpatricks_house_is_for_rent_as_jets_stando.html

Ryan Fitzpatrick's N.J. house is for rent, as Jets standoff drags on

CHATHAM — With the Jets preparing to report to training camp next Wednesday, free agent quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick's house in this posh Morris County suburb is available for rent. 

It is unclear why Fitzpatrick decided to not renew his lease. It doesn't neccesarily mean he won't re-sign with the Jets. But it is clear Fitzpatrick is moving, either elsewhere in northern New Jersey (if he returns to the Jets) or out of the area.

It is also possible that, given his current contract uncertainty, Fitzpatrick didn't want to commit to renewing his lease, because he couldn't be sure he'd even need to live in New Jersey any longer. 

Fitzpatrick did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Fitzpatrick, a 33-year-old journeyman, has been locked in a contract stalemate with the Jets all offseason, after he successfully debuted with them last year. 

Fitzpatrick and his family rented the home. It has been a rental property for several years, according to Hilary Taylor, the house's listing agent. An online listing shows the house became available for rent July 15th.

Taylor said she did not know the current tenant's identity, but property records show that Fitzpatrick and his wife, Liza, resided there. 

Taylor said the current tenant has not yet moved out.

When an NJ Advance Media reporter visited the home Tuesday, a "for rent" sign was in the front yard, Fitzpatrick's pickup truck (with a Jets parking pass on the rearview mirror) was in the driveway, and the home itself appeared occupied. 

Nobody answered when a reporter knocked on the door Tuesday.

On Monday, former NFL quarterback Mark Malone said on his NBC Sports Radio show that he recently spotted Fitzpatrick playing golf in the Scottsdale, Ariz., area. Fitzpatrick grew up in Gilbert, Ariz., 18 miles from Scottsdale. 

Fitzpatrick is scheduled to participate in a celebrity golf tournament in Lake Tahoe that officially runs from Tuesday through Sunday. 

Jets wide receiver Brandon Marshall, who is close with Fitzpatrick, expressedconcern Saturday that Fitzpatrick had not returned his recent text messages. 

Want to live in Fitzpatrick's old pad? The house's monthly rental cost is $9,500, which gets you eight bedrooms, seven full bathrooms, two partial bathrooms, and a three-car garage. The house, which sits on two-thirds of an acre, totals 7,200 square feet. It has 14 total rooms and four fireplaces, but doesn't come furnished. 

Last season, Fitzpatrick spoke about how much he and his family, which includes five young kids, enjoyed living in the Chatham/Madison area.  

The Jets have offered Fitzpatrick a three-year, $24 million contract that includes $15 million in guaranteed pay and $12 million in 2016. The Jets initially made that offer in March. Fitzpatrick has declined to sign it. 

The Jets have said they'd ideally like to have Fitzpatrick re-signed by the start of training camp, but coach Todd Bowles also said there is no drop-dead deadline for the re-signing. Bowles left open the possibility that the Fitzpatrick stalemate could continue for the first week or two of camp. 

 

[Big Blocker]

26 minutes ago, Paradis said:

 

That's a lot of huffing and puffing that amounts to this: the jets offered (we assume) 12 mil a year... and your point is that "obviously the jets like fitz"... Really? Like him so much that he's a free agent? Like him so much that they haven't even tried to meet him on common ground? Like him so much that they are willing to invest him beyond 2016? 

They don't think anymore of him than the other 31 teams in the NFL. Chan and Bowles have obviously decided money was better spent elsewhere. Fitz is what he is. Would i rather he was on the team? Yes. But you bet its more likely Geno turns his career around in year 4, than Fitz in year 12. 

Rough day for you, even if you don't realize it.  Fitz is still a free agent because he wants more than the $12 mil or thereabouts the Jets are offering (actually it's because of the structure of the offer as relates to 17 and 18).  But I don't see how you can conclude their offer means anything less than that they want Fitz over Smith.  Smith IS ALREADY under contract.  They don't need to sign him.  If they saw then as of equal value, that would be the end of it.

[Rangers9]

13 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

Some of you guys are so far out of touch with the Jets and the current organizational strategy that it is really unbelievable.  

They know that they cannot win a Super Bowl with Fitzpatrick nor with Geno under center. They know that this will never happen with Geno and that he'll be off the team after the season is over if not sooner. 

The strategy for this season is to win as many games as possible, thereby creating a winning culture.

Simultaneously, they will be working on developing Petty and Hackenberg. 

Geno Smith is a non-factor. He is not part of the future, they don't care about him. 

Saul, it's really hard to win a Super Bowl. First you have to make the playoffs and then you have to win all of your playoff games. Even the best teams don't always win. So if you think we can make the playoffs or at least have a good shot at it. Then you have as good a chance as anyone to win one. I don't think we're the best team in the NFL but a year ago most people didn't think Denver or Carolina were either. So if we get in I'm optimistic about our chances. You get hot and you're good and lucky and relatively healthy you can get a ring. That's why I don't want 2016 to be a throwaway year. We might not be this good next year. 

[joewilly12]

Why don't all the Fitzpatrick supporters start a GoFundMe page so he doesn't move out.

[Rangers9]

As for the Marshall no reply to texts comments, well if he's concerned about Fitz there's a million people they mutually know he can contact like friends or family. It's rude not to reply to texts but I do it all of the time especially when the sender is annoying.?

[Paradis]

20 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Rough day for you, even if you don't realize it.  Fitz is still a free agent because he wants more than the $12 mil or thereabouts the Jets are offering (actually it's because of the structure of the offer as relates to 17 and 18).  But I don't see how you can conclude their offer means anything less than that they want Fitz over Smith.  Smith IS ALREADY under contract.  They don't need to sign him.  If they saw then as of equal value, that would be the end of it.

whatever you say. I'd wager that anyone the jets want on the team badly, are on the team. 

[pdxgreen]

Fitz has already put his house up for rent. He's gone folks. Time to move on.

[Rangers9]

15 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Why don't all the Fitzpatrick supporters start a GoFundMe page so he doesn't move out.

Beware joewilly. Your greatest wish could become your worst nightmare. I think it's a 60-40 you guys will get what you've been asking for. 

[YankeeJet22]

For the life of me I can't figure out why the Jets haven't said see ya to Fitz yet.  We're talking about Ryan Fitzpatrick here.  Ryan Fitzpatrick.  I love Bowles & Macc so far, but they shouldn't be afraid to move on from their comfort zone in Fitz.  Throw Geno in the deep end, and let him swim.  HE IS JUST AS GOOD AND PROBABLY BETTER THAN RYAN FOCKING FITZPATRICK. 

[AFJF]

1 minute ago, YankeeJet22 said:

For the life of me I can't figure out why the Jets haven't said see ya to Fitz yet.  We're talking about Ryan Fitzpatrick here.  Ryan Fitzpatrick.  I love Bowles & Macc so far, but they shouldn't be afraid to move on from their comfort zone in Fitz.  Throw Geno in the deep end, and let him swim.  HE IS JUST AS GOOD AND PROBABLY BETTER THAN RYAN FOCKING FITZPATRICK. 

We actually agree here because your question makes 100% perfect sense, and the only answer I keep coming up with is "because Geno is next in line".

I'd love for this team to feel like they had a better/younger/cheaper option than Fitz but clearly they do not.

They may end up having to start Geno if Fitz is stupid enough to screw this up, but they've made it clear for months now that they believe Fitz is the better player.

Clearly, I defer to Macc and Bowles, but if Fitz walks, I hope it turns out they were wrong and one of the other 3 QB's is better than Fitz and succeeds under Gailey.

[joewilly12]

11 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Beware joewilly. Your greatest wish could become your worst nightmare. I think it's a 60-40 you guys will get what you've been asking for. 

Great time to move on from Fitzpatrick we need to get younger at the QB position we need to find that franchise QB if he's not on the roster at least we will find out.

[AFJF]

58 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

Fitz has already put his house up for rent. He's gone folks. Time to move on.

Fitz came her making back-up money with a few kids less than Cro.  Maybe he knows he's about to get a big pay day and a few years of stability so he's looking to move in to a bigger place before camp starts.

[pdxgreen]

Fitz came her making back-up money with a few kids less than Cro.  Maybe he knows he's about to get a big pay day and a few years of stability so he's looking to move in to a bigger place before camp starts.

I think that's wishful thinking. But if he walks into the right bar he might be able to cold cock GeNO again.

[AFJF]

4 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

I think that's wishful thinking. But I'd he walks into the right bar he might be able to cold cock GeNO again.

I think both are very realistic possibilities...which one you want it to be depends on which QB you prefer.

[joewilly12]

6 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

 

 

I think that's wishful thinking. But if he walks into the right bar he might be able to cold cock GeNO again.

So this is what its come to fans wishing ill will on Jets players wow just wow

[pdxgreen]

So this is what its come to fans wishing ill will on Jets players wow just wow

Yeah. It's just terrible isn't it! Jets fans with a sense of humor. You'd think after so many seasons of farcical endings it might be a natural reaction (esp. after 6 years of Rex.)

[AFJF]

10 minutes ago, pdxgreen said:

 

 

Yeah. It's just terrible isn't it! Jets fans with a sense of humor. You'd think after so many seasons of farcical endings it might be a natural reaction (esp. after 6 years of Rex.)

Don't worry about it...some Jets fans were celebrating the Patriots on a Jets board to trash Fitz the other day.  

[fltflo]

Fitz is 100% going to be signed in the next few weeks.  He'll come back, be handed the starting job with no questions asked.  The Jets will go on to be an 8-8 team, losing meaningful playoff implication type games in Nov and Dec.  The Patriots will once again, win the division and compete in the Super Bowl.  The offseason talk around JetNation will be, who should start in 2017; Fitz or Hack or Petty?  It will sound something like; Hack isnt ready and sucked at PSU.  Petty sucks because he couldnt even beat out Geno Smith (who goes on to lead the Browns to the playoffs for the first time in forever making @HessStation the happiest Browns fan in the world).  It will be debated till no end that Fitz has to be the starter once again because he brings a veteran presence, knows the offense, is the best available option at QB, hey! look at what he did in 2015 and worst case scenario he mentors the youngsters.  The Jets will inevitably draft the BAP at DL with the 16th overall pick, missing out on the Watson sweepstakes because they ****ed themselves out of draft position and dont have the trade capital to move up and select him.  That will lead to letting Sheldon Richardson go in FA getting nothing in return and watching him eventually win DPOY in New England and win a SB.  Fitz will start again in 2017, the Jets will go 7-9.  Bowles and Mac will be fired at the end of the season for not making the playoffs with a hand picked veteran QB on a loaded team for 3 straight seasons.  Meanwhile, the Patriots make it to their 27th straight AFC Championship game that involves a blatant cheating scandal that the league sweeps under the rug.  The Jets will outsource their new GM/HC search to Heidrich and Struggles International Inc. (heavy competitors to Korn and Ferry).  They'll hire the next up and coming Defensive Coordinator, Vic Fangio and some up and coming exec from the "scouting" side of the house out of Seattle to play GM.  The fan base will be sold on a "rebuilding process" to which the Jets finish 2018 at 4-12.  The Jets will go onto draft Heisman trophy winner, Jacob Eason with the 2nd overall pick who goes on to have a Ryan Leaf like career/life.

So, needless to say, I'm excited!  Go Jets! 

 

 

 

 

Needless to say , this man has been a Jets fan his whole life

[Villain The Foe]

7 hours ago, Paradis said:

I like the enthusiasm. We need more of that.

Question; what's more likely? Fitzpatrick breaks a 11 year history of not getting it done and suddenly rich Gannon's his way to a Lombardi? Or Geno with better coaching and Talent and year off - actually develops into the qb that ppl saw in the 2013 draft?

I'll take either but the latter is more likely. And honestly, the one I'd prefer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey @Warfish ^^^^^^^^

Whats more likely son?