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was John Idzik really that bad of a GM for the jets ? ? ?


kelly
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22 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Geno finished 2013 with improved play and wins in an 8-8 season. And played well enough to convince the team not just Idzik that he could be OK as Jets starter. (he also did the same thing down the stretch in 2014 and went into 2015  under Mac and Bowles as the announced starter).  So why would they want to draft Teddy in 2014 a Qb who dropped until the end of round 1. In other words all the teams in the NFL passed on him. (He isn't great either but better than his draft position).  But as usual with some Jets fans they say we should have taken him after the fact. Typical of their second guessing.

The difference being that the other teams drafting at that portion of the draft had QBs (or thought they did, or [ROFLMAO] drafted Johnny Manziel).

Here are the QBs of the teams selecting after the Jets and before Bridgewater in 2014, in order:

Tannehill, Brees, Clinton-Dix, MANZIEL, A. Smith, Dalton, Rivers, Foles, Palmer, Newton, Brady, Kaepernick, P. Manning.

Other than the Browns, who made the insane mistake of drafting Manziel ahead of Bridgewater, there was no landing spot for Teddy after the Jets.  So the "13 other teams passed on him" argument is really just "the Browns passed on him, too" - and that's never an argument, for anything. 

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On 4/9/2016 at 10:36 AM, kelly said:

He missed a bit on cornerback Dee Milliner,whose career has been ravaged by injury, while the jury is still out on quarterback Geno Smith. Then, as is the case with every draft class, he swung-and-missed on guard Oday Aboushi and tackle William Campbell.

Is that really awful ? Certainly not. And maybe the same can be said about Idzik.

>       http://jetswire.usatoday.com/2016/04/08/was-john-idzik-really-that-bad-of-a-gm-for-the-jets/

Connor - don't do it. Seriously don't do it. Yes, you are with USA Today now and clicks are important. But stories like this don't have staying power. People who write stories like this don't have staying power.

You know football. You know the Jets.

The jury is not out on Geno. The jury has decided, he is waiting for a last minute call from the Governor.

He didn't "miss a bit" he took a guy in the first round that was 4th on the depth chart when he was healthy.

 

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10 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

He probably won't be a GM again mostly because he didn't have the social skills esp needed in the NYC market. Rex had those and was extremely popular esp with the media. And Idzik's boss David Caldwell who has lost a lot more games as a GM than Idzik ever did is also personable and even made the Jags War Room available to I think it was ESPN last year. But when you have 12 picks one 4th round pick is not a huge deal. And you can spend it on a specialist. The problem is the guy didn't stick. But to me the concept was smart. A return specialist is an important job even if the player doesn't have another role. And Saunders could have been useful as a spare receiver. He got cut for reasons other than skill set. And last year with the Bears he was suspended for 4 games. So he has off the field issues. He wasn't considered a bad pick by experts when he was selected. 

In theory yes but not when you are lighting the paper on fire, pissing on it and handing it to the commish. Here Roger, read this pick. So many wasted picks under Idzik,

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Not reading through this whole thread, but there seems to be some discussion that we should have taken Bridgewater. If you wanna bitch in hindsight, then bitch about Carr. Because Bridgewater isn't even superior to Fitzpatrick.

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6 hours ago, Doggin94it said:

To know? Not with certainty.  But given that Geno was Idzik's pick, and we didn't have anyone to compete with him for the starting job (no, the reanimated corpse of David Garrard doesn't count), it seems pretty clear that the FO was expecting 2d year growth from Geno and still looking at him as the QB of the future.

Again, doesn't mean anybody was over the moon for Geno. The problem was failure to identify better available options. Having boned that one, it doesn't really matter whether they viewed Geno as their guy for the long haul or just somebody to throw out there while they kicked the can down the road. Bridgewater fell in our lap and we blew it. That's why Idzik needed to go, but it's not what the airplane goofballs are complaining about. They're just looking at two drafts, giving each pick a broad yea or nay, and concluding that he doesn't know what he's doing. Jets fans love to evaluate Belichick's drafts this way too. The big picture simply never happened with Idzik. The grade is incomplete. But we can't live without the hysterics.

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14 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Getting a C is not good. So I'm not exactly giving Idzik a resounding endorsement. If he should have been fired after 2 seasons it wasn't because of the moves he made. It was because of that press conference which was embarrassing. I listed what I think were the good things he did and there were a good number of them. And if he were GM in 2015 he would have been without Rex and would have spent a lot of money. But not 40 mil on Revis which is breaking our back this year. He traded the guy and got a lot in return. 

A "C" is average and Idzik was a disaster, not average.  While he drooled all over himself in the press conference, that was not the reason he was fired.  He was fired because he couldn't evaluate talent, which was the concern when he was hired in that sham interview process in the first place.  It is scary that you can say that a guy who goes 2 for 18 in draft picks was not fired for the moves he made....what are your feelings on the engineers who built the Hindenburg?

And you have no idea that he would have spent money last year... he operated so slow and low balled everyone, there was no guarantee that we'd sign anyone of significance with him in 2015.  Revis is not breaking our back.  If Revis had 3 more guaranteed years he would be, but you don't seem to understand contract structure so that's lost on you.

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14 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

It's laughable to complain about a 4th round pick (out of 12 picks) when Idzik signed the best Wr free agent in Decker in 2014. And Saunders is basically a return specialist something this team needs. We get terrible field position. Plus in the 6th round he drafted a starting Wr. Name one team that doesn't whiff on players. And the Eagles who drafted Jordan Matthews in round 2 whiffed on their first round pick. And we got a very good DB in Pryor. I'll take that any day. And that includes Amaro who most Jets fans liked before he got injured. I guess that was Idzik's fault, too.

What is laughable is that you shamelessly promote a failed GM and some of his biggest failures you try to inexplicably spin into smart moves.  Even with Decker, this team needed WR's.  We were starting David effing Nelson!!!!!  And you think we were set at the position. 

Saunders was the worst 4th round pick that season and in this team's history and you think it was a genius move! 

Why do you keep bringing up Jordan Mathews and the Eagles, it's really strange.  There are a slew of other guys like Lee, Moncreif, Landry, Robinson, Adams, Brown and Bryant in ADDITION to Mathews and your guy missed on ALL of them. 

Your guy whiffed on 16 out of 18 players, not just a few.  We had 12 picks and came away with Pryor and you'll take that any day.  Seriously, you should be a Browns fan because you'd be on their message board talking about how their last 15 years wasn't really that bad and Manziel was a solid selection.

Amaro was never a stud before the injury and this regime clearly didn't think much of him before the injury so yes that is Idzik's fault.

Idzik failed in every facet of the job and you cling to the fact that you think he got fired for a bad press conference.  The press conference was horrible and his talent evaluation was much much worse.

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23 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

And other players selected could have NFL careers even if not with the Jets.

If this isn't the definition of delusion, I don't know what is.  A guy drafts terribly, releases his own picks and if they should somehow attain success with another franchise, he then gets credit for originally drafting the player and is absolved of any blame for releasing him in the first place.   

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14 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Yeah, I've heard that one before that anyone even us could cut cap space and restructure contracts. If so then why do all teams spend big bucks to hire experts on just one thing: dealing with contracts, the cap and NFL rules and regulations. It's so easy anyone can do it. Look, the majority of Jets fans are Idzik haters. To me the facts don't support it. And some of what I'm hearing is just irrational ranting and raving. 

This is just such a diversion.  People hire cap gurus to deal with the complexities of a complex system, no doubt.  That does not mean that some cap decisions are not 100% obvious.  Cutting Mark Sanchez, Bart Scott, Santonio Holmes and Antonio Cromartie were moves ANYONE would have made.  The fact that the NFL salary cap system is complicated and people specialize in it does not make EVERY decision complicated.  NO ONE would have paid Santonio Holmes $8M off a season where he had 200 yards and was injured and a cancer.  Please explain to all of us where the savvy was in releasing him or any of the afore-mentioned players.  I would love to hear you tell us how any of those 4 players had even a remote case to stay on the team at their bloated salaries.  

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A C is below average. And I don't think his draft picks were an F---. I never said the guy was a good GM but I thought he needed 3 years as does Mac. If the Jets have a 4-12 in 2016, he blows it on a Qb, etc. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon to fire the guy. I don't blame Mac for the Revis contract because I think he was told to sign him by Woody. But it's a bad contract. The kind of contracts Idzik got rid of. And not all teams and GMs have the wherewithal or experience working with the cap that Idzik has. Good orgs like the Patriots and the Steelers don't sign players to contracts like that. Getting rid of those contracts wasn't easy and took skill. And according to NFL rules Idzik would have had to spend that money. He had a long term philosophy and it seems like 2015 was the year he wanted to go more heavily into free agency. Just look at the players he drafted. Geno was a good pick because he had value in the 2nd round. He had dropped, earlier in the college football season it was rumored he'd be in the top ten. Where he was selected it made a lot of sense. As for Harvin. Idzik took a chance on him similar to what Mac is doing with Clady And he had the cap space to do it but didn't have to commit himself to Harvin after the season. So it was in a way an expensive try out. Harvin on the field is no bum.He had credentials  made the Pro Bowl and was an elite return guy and potential impact player on offense. Harvin was not available before the season started. But there were internal problems with him and during the season Seattle made him available. Idzik knew the player and situation he was in, had a good relationship with the Seattle GM and that gave him the advantage to make the trade. He didn't give up much, he got him for a song.I only mentioned Matthews because of the criticism he took for not getting a better wide receiver. Well he took a good safety, a tight end who was the best receiving tight end in that draft, a corner and used his later picks to get wide receivers. And got one who was a 2015 starter in the 6th round. 

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Yes.  he inherited a perfect situation for a new GM w/ no pressure to win, easy moves to get well under the cap and then being able to stockpile draftpicks b/c he wasn't expected to win now.

I am never in favor of firing someone after just 2 years but I am glad the Jets did it.

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This is still really going, huh?  I would have figured one reply of "Yes" would have been sufficient enough.

Forgetting even the debate over some of the individual players, the one thing I don't get is the main thing Idzik gets praised for, being the supposed great job he did "cleaning up" the Jets cap issues.  Here's the funny thing about that, it is only praiseworthy if cap issues are corrected while still retaining the team's quality and/or competitiveness.  Any dipsh*t in the world, including those who have never even heard of football before, could clear up cap space by just cutting players and doing nothing else.  That's not a talent.  The difficult part of dealing with cap issues is clearing out that space and then using the remaining dollars to find suitable replacements, so that these moves aren't crippling your team.  That second part was not even attempted, but rather the leftover money was just stared at blankly, so that kind of invalidates the entire strategy.  That money was already there and ready for use in 2014, and yet the team only got worse, so no reason to believe it would have been put to better use last year.

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5 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

The team on the field was 8-8 his first season. That's not a fire-able offense it was an improvement. 

the fact that for a good part of the year our starting wrs were nelson and chaz is a fireable offense right there

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7 minutes ago, kmnj said:

the fact that for a good part of the year our starting wrs were nelson and chaz is a fireable offense right there

Well this was the team in 2013 he inherited. And we still had Stephen Hill. And a lot of people still felt he could be a good receiver.  

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

So you can only give him the blame never the credit. 

explain what he did to improve the team heading into 2013?  sometimes things happen by accident, he killed that team w/ the sham QB competition(and ruined Geno's career)or we would have had realistic playoff shot.

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Geno ruined his own career by getting punched in the face. As for Sanchez going into 2013. He had lost the starting job due to terrible play for the previous year and a half. Idzik was stuck with him and his ridiculous contract. But it's too bad he was injured in training camp. Not sure he would have started if healthy but I for one as a Jets fan wanted no part of him anymore. I did think Idzik should have brought in a better vet Qb after Mark was IR'd. Like he did in 2014 with Vick who was at the time a reasonable signing. Garrard was not physically able to play. But they did finish at 8-8 and Geno played well down the stretch. As for team building I thought the Revis trade was a great deal and getting the best player in the draft at 13 with that pick was a lot more significant than not getting a good player in the 6th round. His draft in 2013 was ok including Geno. 

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10 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Geno ruined his own career by getting punched in the face. As for Sanchez going into 2013. He had lost the starting job due to terrible play for the previous year and a half. Idzik was stuck with him and his ridiculous contract. But it's too bad he was injured in training camp. Not sure he would have started if healthy but I for one as a Jets fan wanted no part of him anymore. I did think Idzik should have brought in a better vet Qb after Mark was IR'd. Like he did in 2014 with Vick who was at the time a reasonable signing. Garrard was not physically able to play. But they did finish at 8-8 and Geno played well down the stretch. As for team building I thought the Revis trade was a great deal and getting the best player in the draft at 13 with that pick was a lot more significant than not getting a good player in the 6th round. His draft in 2013 was ok including Geno. 

Geno was not ready to play as a rookie, that set his career back.

Sancjez did not lose the job., he badly outplayed Geno in that camp(as he should have) and was looking good heading into the season but the sham competition forced Rex to play him when he didn't want to and he got hurt which killed our chances.

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Look we really don't know if the Jets would have started Geno in 2013 if Mark hadn't gotten injured.  The trend in the NFL had changed and instead of sitting a Qb for a few years some rookies were starting. We heard mixed signals during training camp that season esp coming from Marty. So no slam dunk that Mark was going to win that job. It was for the first time in his Jets career a competition. Mark was not the announced starter going into training camp in 2013. As for the injury Idzik was even blamed for that by Rex and Mark fans. What's wrong with putting him into an exhibition game in the 3rd quarter. He was not the Jets starting Qb. 

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1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

Look we really don't know if the Jets would have started Geno in 2013 if Mark hadn't gotten injured.  The trend in the NFL had changed and instead of sitting a Qb for a few years some rookies were starting. We heard mixed signals during training camp that season esp coming from Marty. So no slam dunk that Mark was going to win that job. It was for the first time in his Jets career a competition. Mark was not the announced starter going into training camp in 2013. As for the injury Idzik was even blamed for that by Rex and Mark fans. What's wrong with putting him into an exhibition game in the 3rd quarter. He was not the Jets starting Qb. 

we do know that Rex wanted to start mark and Idzik prevented that by leading to the injury.  Had mark been healthy he's starting, there's no doubt about that.  what we dould have done that season we don't know for sure but he would have started the season for us.

he was the jets starting QB, it was clear to anyone who could see.  even if you didn't like Mark if you watched Geno in that same preseason game against NYg you knew he wasn't ready so at worst he won it be default(though he actually played well).

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5 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

we do know that Rex wanted to start mark and Idzik prevented that by leading to the injury.  Had mark been healthy he's starting, there's no doubt about that.  what we dould have done that season we don't know for sure but he would have started the season for us.

he was the jets starting QB, it was clear to anyone who could see.  even if you didn't like Mark if you watched Geno in that same preseason game against NYg you knew he wasn't ready so at worst he won it be default(though he actually played well).

I don't know of any proof of what you are saying that Mark had won the Qb competition. And why shouldn't there have been a competition after a terrible year when Mark was finally benched. So how was that Idzik's fault that Sanchez got injured. And would we have been better with Mark than with Geno? 

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1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

I don't know of any proof of what you are saying that Mark had won the Qb competition. And why shouldn't there have been a competition after a terrible year when Mark was finally benched. So how was that Idzik's fault that Sanchez got injured. And would we have been better with Mark than with Geno? 

did you watch the 2 "compete".  if you did you would have your answer.  

Have a competition, nothing wrong with that.  mark was brutal in 2012  BUT when it's clear one is head and shoulders above the other you then end the competition.  Idzik would not allow Rex to do that.

how was it his fault? he kept the sham competition up, rex then made the foolish decision to "show Idzik" how much better Mark was and it backfired w/ the injury.  

Who knows what we would have done but Mark at his worst was better than geno.

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4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

did you watch the 2 "compete".  if you did you would have your answer.  

Have a competition, nothing wrong with that.  mark was brutal in 2012  BUT when it's clear one is head and shoulders above the other you then end the competition.  Idzik would not allow Rex to do that.

how was it his fault? he kept the sham competition up, rex then made the foolish decision to "show Idzik" how much better Mark was and it backfired w/ the injury.  

Who knows what we would have done but Mark at his worst was better than geno.

I never heard that story. That Rex put Mark into the game to prove to Idzik that Mark was more ready to start. I heard other stories unsubstantiated that Idzik forced Rex to put Mark in and that right after the injury Sanchez was screaming and yelling at Idzik. All I know is that Rex used his spin machine to get the fans etc on his side and it worked. As I recall Marty never committed himself to either Qb so where was all this proof on the field that Mark was better than Geno. And would  we have finished with 8 Ws with Sanchez as the starting Qb. 

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2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I never heard that story. That Rex put Mark into the game to prove to Idzik that Mark was more ready to start. I heard other stories unsubstantiated that Idzik forced Rex to put Mark in and that right after the injury Sanchez was screaming and yelling at Idzik. All I know is that Rex used his spin machine to get the fans etc on his side and it worked. As I recall Marty never committed himself to either Qb so where was all this proof on the field that Mark was better than Geno. And would  we have finished with 8 Ws with Sanchez as the starting Qb. 

Rex was on the hot seat, he was neutered.  Old Rex would have said FU and named Mark starter but he had to listen to idzik to save his job.  whether a starter was named or not is irrelevant.  idzik held all the power.

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13 minutes ago, nyjets782 said:

You do realize 8-8 to 4-12 is the wrong direction, correct?  Can we at least acknowledge that much here?

Yeah and you don't fire someone after one bad season. Esp coming after an overachieving year. In 2014 almost every move by the Jets didn't work out. And a lot of them weren't bad moves. Like signing Michael Vick. When he played he sucked. And didn't exactly look like he wanted to be there. But the transaction at the time was a smart move because he was the best available vet Qb on the market at the time. Based on past performance you would have thought he'd have been a lot better. This happens a lot in sports. Teams can underachieve. 

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2 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

A C is below average. And I don't think his draft picks were an F---. I never said the guy was a good GM but I thought he needed 3 years as does Mac. If the Jets have a 4-12 in 2016, he blows it on a Qb, etc. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon to fire the guy. I don't blame Mac for the Revis contract because I think he was told to sign him by Woody. But it's a bad contract. The kind of contracts Idzik got rid of. And not all teams and GMs have the wherewithal or experience working with the cap that Idzik has. Good orgs like the Patriots and the Steelers don't sign players to contracts like that. Getting rid of those contracts wasn't easy and took skill. And according to NFL rules Idzik would have had to spend that money. He had a long term philosophy and it seems like 2015 was the year he wanted to go more heavily into free agency. Just look at the players he drafted. Geno was a good pick because he had value in the 2nd round. He had dropped, earlier in the college football season it was rumored he'd be in the top ten. Where he was selected it made a lot of sense. As for Harvin. Idzik took a chance on him similar to what Mac is doing with Clady And he had the cap space to do it but didn't have to commit himself to Harvin after the season. So it was in a way an expensive try out. Harvin on the field is no bum.He had credentials  made the Pro Bowl and was an elite return guy and potential impact player on offense. Harvin was not available before the season started. But there were internal problems with him and during the season Seattle made him available. Idzik knew the player and situation he was in, had a good relationship with the Seattle GM and that gave him the advantage to make the trade. He didn't give up much, he got him for a song.I only mentioned Matthews because of the criticism he took for not getting a better wide receiver. Well he took a good safety, a tight end who was the best receiving tight end in that draft, a corner and used his later picks to get wide receivers. And got one who was a 2015 starter in the 6th round. 

You have officially shown you know nothing about cap management or contract structure.  The Revis contract is not even close to the Sanchez or Santonio Holmes contract.  Where to even begin?  Revis was guaranteed years instead of a signing bonus.  They can move on from him after 1.5 years and it costs them NOTHING, and they guy still plays at a high level.  Guys like Sanchez & Santonio were giving the team ZERO production and could not be released for years because of all the dead money that would have hit the cap.  You simply don't understand these concepts.

Orgs like the Pats and Steelers are paying their QB's significant money (albeit for Brady a lot of that is under the table).  The Jets could afford to pay Revis that contract because they don't have a franchise QB.  They got the best free agent at their biggest need position (outside of QB).

You also have no idea how to grade a draft.  Perceived value on draft day does not equal a good pick.  If the guy does not turn out to be any good, how is it still good value 3 years later?   

Still touting Percy Harvin, huh?  Never gonna let that go...He is done.  He has been done since his Minnesota days.  He got Harvin for an $8M song and a 6th rounder.  How do you keep ignoring that?  You love Clueless John for his obvious cuts and his hoarding of cap space but then he wastes a significant portion on Harvin in a lost season, it does not work out, and you love it.

Enunwa is not a starter....stop trying to convince fans who watch each week that he is...sounds foolish.  Intelligent fans don't try to tout a players college stats after they are in their 3rd pro season with no impact so you should probably stop with Amaro.  I hope he turns it around, but I am not mortgaging my house on it.

What you are clearly trying to do is apply conflicting, illogical standards to a myriad of blunders, screw ups and fubar moves to defend the indefensible.

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7 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Yeah and you don't fire someone after one bad season. Esp coming after an overachieving year. In 2014 almost every move by the Jets didn't work out. And a lot of them weren't bad moves. Like signing Michael Vick. When he played he sucked. And didn't exactly look like he wanted to be there. But the transaction at the time was a smart move because he was the best available vet Qb on the market at the time. Based on past performance you would have thought he'd have been a lot better. This happens a lot in sports. Teams can underachieve. 

How do you say Vick sucked when he played but it wasn't a bad move?   You grade a move or a draft pick on the result, nothing else.  You keep touting horrible signings and draft picks that produced awful results as being good moves....just stop with this "smart at the time but ultimately sucked" as a means of praising someone's performance.

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18 minutes ago, nyjets782 said:

You have officially shown you know nothing about cap management or contract structure.  The Revis contract is not even close to the Sanchez or Santonio Holmes contract.  Where to even begin?  Revis was guaranteed years instead of a signing bonus.  They can move on from him after 1.5 years and it costs them NOTHING, and they guy still plays at a high level.  Guys like Sanchez & Santonio were giving the team ZERO production and could not be released for years because of all the dead money that would have hit the cap.  You simply don't understand these concepts.

Orgs like the Pats and Steelers are paying their QB's significant money (albeit for Brady a lot of that is under the table).  The Jets could afford to pay Revis that contract because they don't have a franchise QB.  They got the best free agent at their biggest need position (outside of QB).

You also have no idea how to grade a draft.  Perceived value on draft day does not equal a good pick.  If the guy does not turn out to be any good, how is it still good value 3 years later?   

Still touting Percy Harvin, huh?  Never gonna let that go...He is done.  He has been done since his Minnesota days.  He got Harvin for an $8M song and a 6th rounder.  How do you keep ignoring that?  You love Clueless John for his obvious cuts and his hoarding of cap space but then he wastes a significant portion on Harvin in a lost season, it does not work out, and you love it.

Enunwa is not a starter....stop trying to convince fans who watch each week that he is...sounds foolish.  Intelligent fans don't try to tout a players college stats after they are in their 3rd pro season with no impact so you should probably stop with Amaro.  I hope he turns it around, but I am not mortgaging my house on it.

What you are clearly trying to do is apply conflicting, illogical standards to a myriad of blunders, screw ups and fubar moves to defend the indefensible.

He gets 39 million guaranteed. Now that's a bad contract for a cornerback. And if you like with Vick only count on the field results. Revis wasn't that good on the field in 2016. And played way under the value of that contract. 

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21 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Yeah and you don't fire someone after one bad season. Esp coming after an overachieving year. In 2014 almost every move by the Jets didn't work out. And a lot of them weren't bad moves. Like signing Michael Vick. When he played he sucked. And didn't exactly look like he wanted to be there. But the transaction at the time was a smart move because he was the best available vet Qb on the market at the time. Based on past performance you would have thought he'd have been a lot better. This happens a lot in sports. Teams can underachieve. 

They only "overachieved" because the talent on the roster was terrible. The Jets gave up nearly 100 more points than they scored that year. They managed to get to 8-8 thru a couple lucky bounces and a few players playing their asses off to save Rex's job. The only thing Idzik had to do with any surprise success that year was decimating the roster to set them up to overachieve. 

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