Ryan Clady a Jet [MERGED]

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You seem very concerned about our inability to develop Brent Qvale and Ben Ijalana.  I'm not.  When we have players worthy of being groomed, those veteran players will be gone forever.  All comes down to Macc nailing this draft. 

I'm concerned about our refusal to try. I'm concerned with this insistence on limiting our floor by capping our ceiling. I'm concerned with an organization that cares about placating people who thought we were going nowhere but up after 2009. But then it kind of has to be that way. You guys can't really be all that concerned with the exceptions subsuming the rule because that would sort of dictate that being wrong all the time means you don't know what you're talking about.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

How the hell will we know if he nails it or not? There are only 5 spots in the starting lineup that will even be open to competition.

How many potential starters would you say a GM needs to come away with in a given draft for it to be a success?  For instance, is a mid-round pick that turns into, say, a very capable RB2 with starter potential, a bad pick to you?

[Matt39]

10 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

How the hell will we know if he nails it or not? There are only 5 spots in the starting lineup that will even be open to competition.

We have 5 picks this year. Boom.

[Mainejet]

On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 11:38 AM, PatsFanTX said:

He's a one year stop gap measure, Brick's long term replacement will be found in the draft.

If you think the Jets are getting some type of top notch,"mauler" All-Pro LT, then you are delusional.

I think all that deer meat is affecting your thought process.

I tend to disagree with this. In fact, I'm inclined to believe just the opposite. Clady still has a lot left in the tank. I think he makes full recovery and becomes an integral part of a very productive running and passing game. At that point? The Jets have already selected a LT of the future. Then, they have a very good problem on their hands. They keep Clady and just decide to keep the newbie at RT.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, dbatesman said:

For the...fifth? Tenth? Hundredth? time in this thread, the trade in a vacuum is fine, although I hate acquiring injury-prone players. The problem is that it didn't happen in a vacuum; it happened in the context of the last thirteen months, when we've loaded the roster with veteran players.

Veterans are old and expensive and block younger players from playing, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to acquire them unless you're ready to make a run. For a team that's mediocre (or bad, or doing some sort of half-assed rebuild, whatever) like us, it makes no sense. People harp constantly about how we need a young QB, but we also need a young left tackle, and we just kicked the can down the road at least another season, and gave up a pick and a chunk of money to boot. The wide receiver group is an even better example. Who do we have in the pipeline to step up in 2 years when Marshall and Decker are too expensive or injured or ineffective to keep? Devin Smith? Quincy Enunwa? This isn't even getting into questions of marginal value (i.e., Clady is clearly better than Qvale, but is he $6 million + a 5th rounder-better?). 

Pick whatever smart team you want, and the way they stay good is by constantly replenishing talent through the draft and keeping costs down so they can maximize flexibility when it's time to make a run (this is precisely what the Seahawks did, btw). Sometimes--and this will absolutely mortify everyone here, I'm sure--that talent sucks. When that happens, the smart teams you trot it out anyway and work around it as best they can and then just draft someone else. The Jets have a sh*t hemorrhage and throw a second contract at the first warm body they find. It's staggering to me the logical loops Jets fans will leap through to deny this fact every single time we feel like handing an eight-figure contract to some bum. This really isn't that complicated.

I'm sympathetic, but we don't just need (want) a young LT. We need a young LT and a young RT. Replacing both at the same time this year is a tall order. Especially when we're already looking to use high pick(s) on a QB and/or an OLB who can rush the passer, not to mention I'd like someone who can take over for Harris next year. So we can still find that LT this year and all it would do is bump Giacomini. Or if not then just figure how we're better suited for this year (decide which one plays LT in 2016 and which one plays RT).

The main reason I'm sympathetic is more reality of the situation than philosophy, though. I think a coach can give younger guys a chance (OL and QB being the exceptions where you simply don't rotate guys on & off the field all the time). My issue with this is more because I haven't seen any evidence Bowles wants to give young guys a shot over known/"proven" veterans. When guys like Cromartie or Coples were struggling early on, they stayed on the field. Only time Coples lost his job was when he had no place else to put Richardson. Ditto Pace. These guys had no future with the team, and they were still out there every play until an injury or suspension changed things.

I very much like the idea of keeping cap room around for the day we do discover that worthy QB, and can make splashes at the couple of remaining missing pieces. I hated both Maccagnan and Tannenbaum building through FA like they were making a SB run, and doing it all in the absence of a freaking QB. Like you could say, "OK, now we just have this one more hole to fill," when - rare exceptions like Denver '15 notwithstanding - it's almost always the only starting hole that matters.

The reason that pricier 30 year-olds like Clady or Marshall don't bother me as much (and I've said it a couple of times) is because they are the types of players that will be real assets in developing a young QB. It's a tough enough thing to learn without having 2 seconds to throw, and then when you do your targets are draft busts like Stephen Hill or thrifty-spend veterans like David Nelson. 

[Tinstar]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm sympathetic, but we don't just need (want) a young LT. We need a young LT and a young RT. Replacing both at the same time this year is a tall order. Especially when we're already looking to use high pick(s) on a QB and/or an OLB who can rush the passer, not to mention I'd like someone who can take over for Harris next year. So we can still find that LT this year and all it would do is bump Giacomini. Or if not then just figure how we're better suited for this year (decide which one plays LT in 2016 and which one plays RT).

The main reason I'm sympathetic is more reality of the situation than philosophy, though. I think a coach can give younger guys a chance (OL and QB being the exceptions where you simply don't rotate guys on & off the field all the time). My issue with this is more because I haven't seen any evidence Bowles wants to give young guys a shot over known/"proven" veterans. When guys like Cromartie or Coples were struggling early on, they stayed on the field. Only time Coples lost his job was when he had no place else to put Richardson. Ditto Pace. These guys had no future with the team, and they were still out there every play until an injury or suspension changed things.

I very much like the idea of keeping cap room around for the day we do discover that worthy QB, and can make splashes at the couple of remaining missing pieces. I hated both Maccagnan and Tannenbaum building through FA like they were making a SB run, and doing it all in the absence of a freaking QB. Like you could say, "OK, now we just have this one more hole to fill," when - rare exceptions like Denver '15 notwithstanding - it's almost always the only starting hole that matters.

The reason that pricier 30 year-olds like Clady or Marshall don't bother me as much (and I've said it a couple of times) is because they are the types of players that will be real assets in developing a young QB. It's a tough enough thing to learn without having 2 seconds to throw, and then when you do your targets are draft busts like Stephen Hill or thrifty-spend veterans like David Nelson. 

Have you seen my post Ferguson draft in the draft forum ?

[PatsFanTX]

re: comp picks.  

right now, the Jets would be ineligible for any meaningful comp pick.  

Jets gained 3 "Qualified UFAs": Forte, McLendon and Jarvis Jenkins.  The Jets lost three "Qualified UFAs" (Snacks, Ivory and D. Davis).  The other UFAs the Jets lost won't qualify.  Per Jason at Over-the-Cap, Ridley, Antonio Allen and Darrin Walls received new contracts that are too low on annual salary ($840,000)  to make them "Qualified UFAs", so they don't count, at least for the moment. Of course the amount that qualifies an UFA might change (Jason thinks the number is at or near $1,000,000 APY), so Jason's forecast is that those 3 don't qualify.  That leaves us with no net loss on the number of Qualified UFAs gained/acquired.  A wash would give the Jets at best, a late 7th rounder to make up for the difference in salaries of those we lost vs those we gained.  But unless Fitzpatrick or Pace signs somewhere else for over $1,000,000, we ain't gettin much if anything at all.  If Fitz signs elsewhere, then we would likely qualify for a 3rd or 4th for Snacks or if Fitz's new contract elsewhwere cancels out Snacks, then we'd be getting a 4th or 5th for Ivory instead.  

http://overthecap.com/compensatory-draft-picks-cancellation-chart/

http://overthecap.com/the-basics-and-methodology-of-projecting-the-nfls-compensatory-draft-picks/

That's the best explanation of how comp picks work that I have read.

Nice job Dcat!

[Sperm Edwards]

18 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

Have you seen my post Ferguson draft in the draft forum ?

I'm too busy talking to listen to other people. Or the typing-on-screen equivalent of that, anyway.

[Mogglez]

For those who are discussing Qvale and Ijalana, Qvale translates much better to RT and the early reports are he's going to get a shot to show where is his progress is at some point this spring/summer.  You don't log-jam a RT to LT so to complain that Qvale isn't getting a shot over Clady now is stupid, nevermind the fact that he is getting a shot to replace Breno so those of you who want to see younger guys out there should be happy regardless.

As far as Ben Ijalana goes, the team cut him way way back and only resigned him after Brick made his retirement official.  After that, they decided to trade for Ryan Clady.  That should speak volumes on what the organization feels about him.  You don't start young guys just for the hell of it either.  This is nowhere close to what Tannenbaum tried to do.

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, Mogglez said:

For those who are discussing Qvale and Ijalana, Qvale translates much better to RT and the early reports are he's going to get a shot to show where is his progress is at some point this spring/summer.  You don't logjam a RT to LT so to complain that Qvale isn't getting a shot over Clady now is stupid, nevermind the fact that he is getting a shot to replace Breno so those of you who want to see younger guys out there should be happy.

As far as Ben Ijalana goes, the team cut him way way back and only resigned him after Brick made his retirement official.  After that, they decided to trade for Ryan Clady.  That should speak volumes on what the organization feels about him.  You don't start young guys just for the hell of it either.

I'll believe Bowles will give an UDFA the nod, over a $5M known quantity, when I see it. Hopefully he's good enough to be a starter, but I have my doubts that he'll get the job if it's close.

Its not a matter of starting young guys for the hell of it. He didn't start the same young guys he's being forced to go with this year at corner. Maybe/hopefully he was left alone during the season (it's his team), but this winter Maccagnan told him he wants to see some guys in action who aren't dead-end players who cost $5-15M/year on veteran contracts.

[Dcat]

35 minutes ago, PatsFanTX said:

That's the best explanation of how comp picks work that I have read.

Nice job Dcat!

Credit to Jason and his writers at Over-The-Cap. I learned almost everything about how this enigmatic process works from there.  The whole thing seemed like this mysterious black box before I read Jason's explanation article.

[Mogglez]

28 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'll believe Bowles will give an UDFA the nod, over a $5M known quantity, when I see it. Hopefully he's good enough to be a starter, but I have my doubts that he'll get the job if it's close.

Its not a matter of starting young guys for the hell of it. He didn't start the same young guys he's being forced to go with this year at corner. Maybe/hopefully he was left alone during the season (it's his team), but this winter Maccagnan told him he wants to see some guys in action who aren't dead-end players who cost $5-15M/year on veteran contracts.

I can agree with some things here but have counter points.

- Bowles, just like Mac, is still learning and hopefully this is just a growth thing for him. It's not unheard of for Rookie Head Coaches lean on their Vets a little too much when they first settle in (i.e. Rex).  What separates the good ones from the failures is whether or not they learn from that flaw and actually correct it. Bowles has also expressed a desire to get younger and faster so I'd like to hope that he realizes this.  Watching how these two grow into there roles is definitely something that'll be interesting to watch.

- If Qvale doesn't look better than Breno Giacomini in camp, than he doesn't deserve the nod quite frankly. That's just my opinion, but Breno was so bad last year that I'd venture to guess there are plenty who feel the same way.  Personally I'd like to see RT addressed in the first three rounds, but I've all but given up figuring out what we are gonna do this year.  There are just so many different things that could happen.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Mogglez said:

I can agree with some things here but have counter points.

- Bowles, just like Mac, is still learning and hopefully this is just a growth thing for him. It's not unheard of for Rookie Head Coaches lean on their Vets a little too much when they first settle in (i.e. Rex).  What separates the good ones from the failures is whether or not they learn from that flaw and actually correct it. Bowles has also expressed a desire to get younger and faster so I'd like to hope that he realizes this.  Watching how these two grow into there roles is definitely something that'll be interesting to watch.

- If Qvale doesn't look better than Breno Giacomini in camp, than he doesn't deserve the nod quite frankly. That's just my opinion, but Breno was so bad last year that I'd venture to guess there are plenty who feel the same way.  Personally I'd like to see RT addressed in the first three rounds, but I've all but given up figuring out what we are gonna do this year, there are so many things that could happen.

 

I think if Qvale looks approximately the same he should get the nod. A guy with Breno's experience should be docked a few points in a straight-up competition against someone who's never started a game before. With more playing time, Qvale would (theoretically) be expected to improve, while Breno would be expected to perform the same.

[Integrity28]

lol, all we did was move down something like 81 spots on day 3... we aren't making "less" picks that we were this time last week... we're just picking later... this is the most ridiculous thing I've seen Jet fans get uppity about in a long while... 

[Mogglez]

17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I think if Qvale looks approximately the same he should get the nod. A guy with Breno's experience should be docked a few points in a straight-up competition against someone who's never started a game before. With more playing time, Qvale would (theoretically) be expected to improve, while Breno would be expected to perform the same.

Fair enough.  Maybe I'm still a little traumatized after the whole "let's cut Damien Woody for Wayne Hunter" experience we went through a few years back because I can see where you're coming from, I just don't know if I would go that route if it were my team and Qvale was the ONLY other choice (as it stands).  Then again, maybe we strike gold again and find the next Austin Howard, who knows? I think we can both agree that at some point, yes, we need to get younger.

[carlito1171]

30 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

lol, all we did was move down something like 81 spots on day 3... we aren't making "less" picks that we were this time last week... we're just picking later... this is the most ridiculous thing I've seen Jet fans get uppity about in a long while... 

Really haven't seen a sound argument yet that goes against this move...other then his injury history which is indeed a concern. But you could argue that if he was healthy, we would have had to give up more then a 5th or maybe Denver doesn't sign Okung and keeps Clady.

Just a bunch of know-it-alls thumping their chest on a message board is more like it...

[Doggin94it]

I love how the people who keep saying a seventh is the same as the fifth are the same ones who love the idea of clogging the roster with stopgaps so we're not tempted to use a draft pick on a position of need when there's somebody with a marginally higher grade on the board.

Heh. People think teams should treat the late rounds the same as the first and second. Precisely because the marginal difference in value collapses late, need plays a larger role in the late rounds than the early rounds. But by the same token, it's pipeline need, not immediate need, since players taken that late can't be expected to fill major roles right away.

Players taken to fill immediate holes need to cone from premium picks, which is precisely where the marginal harm of reaching for need is most acute

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

[Doggin94it]

How the hell will we know if he nails it or not? There are only 5 spots in the starting lineup that will even be open to competition.

That's crazy talk. I'd say there are only 6 or 7 players whose starting spots are untouchable heading into camp:

Revis

Mangold

Marshall

Decker

Sheldon

Mo/Williams

Maybe Harris

Pretty much every other job is available to be taken if a young guy steps up, though that's less likely for many others just based on the players on the roster right now (clady, pryor, carpenter)

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[varjet]

Assuming Clady is healthy, and he is highly motivated to be healthy, this signing was very powerful, because there is no assurance that the Jets will be able to draft a future LT this year.

If they can find one who can play in 2017, they will be spared having to pay Clady.  But it is not unusual to pay a LT top dollar, and they will have the cap space.  Yes, Revis and currently Wilkerson take up too much cap space, but Revis will roll off soon enough, Wilkerson AND Richardson will not see that type of money together, and the Jets do not have s QB to pay.  If they did, they would not be able to afford Revis.  Revis was basically Woody's QB so that he can get into the papers and sell jerseys.

The Jets are in an interesting spot, because it would appear to me that when the Jets pick, the players then available who are most likely to be successful NFL players will be the two DL from Alabama.  Picking one of them and unloading RIchardson and Wilkerson would not be a crazy idea.

Signing Fitz and Clady basically allows the Jets to take the best players available when they pick.   That will serve MacC well and keep him from getting fired.  He reached for Devin Smith, and he and everyone knows it.   He can't do that again.

[Adoni Beast]

Great trade for value and team friendly contract.

He is either a D'brick upgrade or serviceable "hold the fort" guy for whomever we draft at LT this year (and I think we certainly will).  

[Matt39]

 

[Jetsfan80]

16 hours ago, Matt39 said:

 

Fair point, but you get what you pay for.  They were one of the worst pass blocking teams in the NFL last year, and likely will be again in '16.  Not everyone has a Russell Wilson who can bail them out. 

[JustInFudge]

Wait, WTF????

I've been out of the country, this really happened?  We traded 2 picks for a guy who literally cant stay healthy for the life of him? 

Why?  

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, JiF said:

Wait, WTF????

I've been out of the country, this really happened?  We traded 2 picks for a guy who literally cant stay healthy for the life of him? 

Why?  

To bother you. I had it arranged.

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

To bother you. I had it arranged.

You're a dick!

[carlito1171]

17 hours ago, Matt39 said:

 

Yea I believe that their OL was atrocious last year 

[Beerfish]

9 minutes ago, JiF said:

Wait, WTF????

I've been out of the country, this really happened?  We traded 2 picks for a guy who literally cant stay healthy for the life of him? 

Why?  

No we traded one pick and got a pick back for a guy that can't stay healthy.  Our net pick loss was zero.

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

No we traded one pick and got a pick back for a guy that can't stay healthy.  Our net pick loss was zero.

I'm trying to find the details...we gave up a 5th, got Clady and the last pick in the draft? 

[Savage69]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Fair point, but you get what you pay for.  They were one of the worst pass blocking teams in the NFL last year, and likely will be again in '16.  Not everyone has a Russell Wilson who can bail them out. 

No but we could have had him..

[Beerfish]

26 minutes ago, JiF said:

I'm trying to find the details...we gave up a 5th, got Clady and the last pick in the draft? 

Gave up our 5th got #233 in the 7th round.

[JustInFudge]

14 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Gave up our 5th got #233 in the 7th round.

Yuck.  Oh well.  

At least we're getting younger...

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, JiF said:

Yuck.  Oh well.  

At least we're getting younger...

Clady is 3 years younger than Brick, after all. 

[Dcat]

33 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Gave up our 5th got #233 in the 7th round.

235, I think

[Sperm Edwards]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

Yuck.  Oh well.  

At least we're getting younger...

Another way of looking at it is that they traded up 2 rounds, from their 7th to our 5th, and it cost them Ryan Clady. They needed the salary dump, and with Ferguson's retirement we had the cap room. No matter what happens with Clady, he's a cost-saver. If he's an all-pro again he'll still be a cost saver. Clady's strength is pass-blocking, like Ferguson, but he's better than Ferguson at both.

That's just if he's on the field. If he's not, then we get a much-needed look at someone with a possible future, instead of paying >$10M on the hopes that Ferguson will drink from the fountain of 2010 this year (the same prayer that has been made and unanswered for the past 4 seasons).

I think that they're just taking a stab in the dark because they can't draft 2 new tackles this year and expect them both to start. I expect there's a high probability Breno's getting cut next, but that would happen between draft weekend and final cutdowns. If Clady isn't on IR this summer, it'll be a 3-way competition for RT among Breno, Qvale, and a rookie (with the hope that Breno loses to one of the other two).

[Rangers9]

I think it's a good deal and as one poster stated a few days ago you have to take educated chances,. I mean he could get burned on this if Clady is not able to play. Don't we lose 3 million. But considering this guy's talent level it's worth it.